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Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby HenryGeorge » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:40 am

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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby MarcosZeitola » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:50 am

newlifeinphilippines wrote:I thank God though cause you know what what you say to me just makes me research and ponder my spirituality. So thank you.


Well ponder it some more, then. Because all I hear you say in terms of motivation is "I don't want to go to hell". I don't hear "I want to be a good man" or "I want to have a good life". I just hear fear as being your motivation, not love. You are not in awe of God's might, you are merely frightened of it. Guilt tripped by your upbringing to believe what your parents believe. I have not heard genuine change from you. You are still as shallow and judgmental as before, and a very bad PR agent for your Baptist God.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby droid » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:05 am

MarcosZeitola wrote:Well plenty of these heathens are far better people then you'll ever be, Mr. Blackhat. You cannot take your money with you.
Lol
1)Too much of one thing defeats the purpose.
2)Everybody is full of it. What's your hypocrisy?
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby Jester » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:06 am

MarcosZeitola wrote:
Your heart isn't in it... you put other religions down, other denominations, to elevate your own and feel better....



Thanks, good analysis. I had wondered what the "driver" was that underlies anti-Catholic obsession, this sounds right.

I used to go to a Pentecostal denomination where a handful in "leadership" tended toward fanaticism, so I saw it up close. Offending people in the community with stupid Bible-waving street preaching, phony Halloween haunted-house with "ambush" preaching, gossipping about other members, etc. Yet they were also courageous people, and they did good too. Not for me though, ultimately, though. I moved on.

One thing I noticed was a fear-based chain of command, and a personality cult. Although that church I described was part of California's miniscule "FourSquare" denomination, the "leadership" grafted themselves onto an outside network of churches that were obsessed with "church-planting" This network provided the tight authority structure that the "leadership" craved.

The Catholic church has a problem with homosexuality and pederasty in the clergy and among nuns as well. (Whereas Evangelicals seem to have continuing problems with money-obsession and personality cults - and Pharisaical hypocrisy.) Two endearing things about Catholics, though, are their tolerance, and their humility. I think those two kind of go together.

At Thanksgiving dinner, with a Mexican-American crowd, my host's sister was introduced to me as "working with the police". I changed the subject. But she was very mannish, and as the evening progressed she gleefully related a story about how she had been used to deliberately humiliate a man arrested in his own home for "domestic violence" (no warrant or complaint required in the California Police State). I refrained from comment, walked away. By the end of the evening, she was lamenting that others in her family were "idol-worshippers". It may seem like an odd coincidence, a mannish establish feminist female cop, ALSO spouting fanatical-Protestant anti-Catholic rhetoric. But I think there was an crusading egocentrism in her character that made her a good fit for both.

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-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby Jester » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:24 am

newlifeinphilippines wrote:
Pharisees thought they could do good works to get to heaven but Jesus told them otherwise.



It was their hard hearts that Jesus criticized, not their works. jesus LIKED good works.

If any man forces you to go with him one mile, go with him two.
Making water into wine.
Casting demons out.
Healing the blind.
Healing the lame.
Raising the dead.

Plus Jesus also engaged in personal "works":
Water Baptism
Meditation (Come ye apart into a lonely place and rest a while)
Fasting
Prayer (as in Gethsemane)

Besides, after denying what the Letter of James says ("faith without works is dead"), modern Evangelicals nevertheless go on to re-invent various kinds of "works". like Soul-winning (aggressive in-your-face evangelization) (not always bad, but man they WORK at it)

Sometimes the "works" that Evangelicals invent are precise re-creations of lapsed Church tradition - for example:
Penance (very often repentant drug pushers, pimps etc engage in "working with" those they had harmed)
Confession (Alcoholics Anonymous and other Twelve-Step groups)

You get the idea - same things by other names. Don't get me wrong here - I'm FOR this stuff.

What Protestants do WRONG is the calumny, the elbow in the face to one's own teammate. When condemning your brother, the divisiveness itself is a sin. This is the lesson of the Prodigal Son. The Prodigal Son screwed up and squandered his inheritance. He sought forgiveness. His Father ran to greet him and ordered a celebration. Seeing this, it was the OTHER son who seethed self-righteous egocentric anger. He had done everything right. Except love his brother.
"Pick a point and go to it."
-- Dr John Hunsucker, speaking about canoeing on Georgia's Lake Lanier, with its irregular shape, and 1000 miles of meandering shoreline
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby newlifeinphilippines » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:49 pm

MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:I thank God though cause you know what what you say to me just makes me research and ponder my spirituality. So thank you.


Well ponder it some more, then. Because all I hear you say in terms of motivation is "I don't want to go to hell". I don't hear "I want to be a good man" or "I want to have a good life". I just hear fear as being your motivation, not love. You are not in awe of God's might, you are merely frightened of it. Guilt tripped by your upbringing to believe what your parents believe. I have not heard genuine change from you. You are still as shallow and judgmental as before, and a very bad PR agent for your Baptist God.


well obviously your judging from your computer screen you dont even know me.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby MarcosZeitola » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:53 pm

newlifeinphilippines wrote:
MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:I thank God though cause you know what what you say to me just makes me research and ponder my spirituality. So thank you.


Well ponder it some more, then. Because all I hear you say in terms of motivation is "I don't want to go to hell". I don't hear "I want to be a good man" or "I want to have a good life". I just hear fear as being your motivation, not love. You are not in awe of God's might, you are merely frightened of it. Guilt tripped by your upbringing to believe what your parents believe. I have not heard genuine change from you. You are still as shallow and judgmental as before, and a very bad PR agent for your Baptist God.


well obviously your judging from your computer screen you dont even know me.


Like many people online, you have shamelessly shared so many intimate details about your personal life that I believe I know you quite well. Well enough, anyway. Definitely better then I would have liked to. It seems to me like you are driven not by a love for God but by a fear of Him instead. You can deny it if you wish, but that's the impression I am getting. The fear of an eternity in the fires of hell seems to be your biggest motivation. You're having a little case of Pascal's Wager, me thinks.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby newlifeinphilippines » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:56 pm

MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:
MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:I thank God though cause you know what what you say to me just makes me research and ponder my spirituality. So thank you.


Well ponder it some more, then. Because all I hear you say in terms of motivation is "I don't want to go to hell". I don't hear "I want to be a good man" or "I want to have a good life". I just hear fear as being your motivation, not love. You are not in awe of God's might, you are merely frightened of it. Guilt tripped by your upbringing to believe what your parents believe. I have not heard genuine change from you. You are still as shallow and judgmental as before, and a very bad PR agent for your Baptist God.


well obviously your judging from your computer screen you dont even know me.


Like many people online, you have shamelessly shared so many intimate details about your personal life that I believe I know you quite well. Well enough, anyway. Definitely better then I would have liked to. It seems to me like you are driven not by a love for God but by a fear of Him instead. You can deny it if you wish, but that's the impression I am getting. The fear of an eternity in the fires of hell seems to be your biggest motivation. You're having a little case of Pascal's Wager, me thinks.



Do you fear your parents? Yes cause you dont want them to be mad at you. Jesus said to work out your salvation with "fear and trembling". In order to repent and get saved to begin with you must realize you are a bad person DESERVING hell. Which should spark a person to want to change.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby MarcosZeitola » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:00 pm

newlifeinphilippines wrote:Do you fear your parents? Yes cause you dont want them to be mad at you. Jesus said to work out your salvation with "fear and trembling". In order to repent and get saved to begin with you must realize you are a bad person DESERVING hell. Which should spark a person to want to change.


I respect my parents. Respect does not require fear. In fact I would argue the greatest respect is born from admiration, rather then fear. If I decided to change my life (for which I see little reason right now), I would do so because I wish to be a person my children can look up to. I want to set a good example, and be remembered fondly by those I leave behind. This drives me to better myself. I find this a more worthy reason then fear of a hypothetical afterlife-barbeque.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby newlifeinphilippines » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:03 pm

MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:Do you fear your parents? Yes cause you dont want them to be mad at you. Jesus said to work out your salvation with "fear and trembling". In order to repent and get saved to begin with you must realize you are a bad person DESERVING hell. Which should spark a person to want to change.


I respect my parents. Respect does not require fear. In fact I would argue the greatest respect is born from admiration, rather then fear.



So all your life you never feared your parents getting angry and that never motivated you to behave? I dont believe that unless your parents didn't raise you properly with strict punishment. God is avengeful also and will hand down strict punishment when a person gets out of line. so you wouldn't fear them when they punished you or if you slipped up you wouldn't fear their punishment? Now your just lying every kid fears their parents unless like I said your parents never hit you or gave you a kind of God fearing punishment equivalent to Hell in the afterlife. Your a very proud person I dont know if anyone has told you that but its pretty alarming. Thats probably why you choose to follow satan cause of your pride. Your upbringing of being coddled without ever being hit is probably why you think your so great and can get to heaven on your own works.

BTW Pascals wager is about someone who never believed but thinks at the last minute they can quickly cahnge their belifes. Ive always believed. Although im trying to confirm its sincere this time.

BTW change is not instant its gradual over time and there will be setbacks. You act like the person no longer is human.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby newlifeinphilippines » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:09 pm

BTW change is not instant its gradual over time and there will be setbacks. You act like the person no longer is human.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby MarcosZeitola » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:11 pm

newlifeinphilippines wrote:So all your life you never feared your parents getting angry and that never motivated you to behave?


My parents are very even-tempered people. When I would misbehave, they would be dissapointed. That hit me a lot harder then any anger ever could have. I behaved because I wished them to be proud of me. The same way, when one is religious he ought to be religious because he wishes to do good for God and his fellow man. NOT because he fears for what happens if he doesn't. The first is a genuine reason, the second a selfish one.

newlifeinphilippines wrote:God is avengeful also and will hand down strict punishment when a person gets out of line.


He's not punished me yet so I suppose I'm good. ;) And I ever sin, well, we were created in His image weren't we? ;)

newlifeinphilippines wrote:Now your just lying every kid fears their parents unless like I said your parents never hit you or gave you a kind of God fearing punishment equivalent to Hell in the afterlife.


What sort of punishment could my parents give me that is "equivalent to Hell in the afterlife"? Like, slowly roast me on a grill if I curse? lol

newlifeinphilippines wrote:Your a very proud person I dont know if anyone has told you that but its pretty alarming. Thats probably why you choose to follow satan cause of your pride.


I do not follow Satan, I follow what my heart, my mind and common decency tells me is right.

newlifeinphilippines wrote:BTW Pascals wager is about someone who never believed but thinks at the last minute they can quickly cahnge their belifes. Ive always believed. Although im trying to confirm its sincere this time.


You may have always believed but it was (and is) the belief of a coward.
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby newlifeinphilippines » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:13 pm

MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:So all your life you never feared your parents getting angry and that never motivated you to behave?


My parents are very even-tempered people. When I would misbehave, they would be dissapointed. That hit me a lot harder then any anger ever could have. I behaved because I wished them to be proud of me. The same way, when one is religious he ought to be religious because he wishes to do good for God and his fellow man. NOT because he fears for what happens if he doesn't. The first is a genuine reason, the second a selfish one.

newlifeinphilippines wrote:God is avengeful also and will hand down strict punishment when a person gets out of line.


He's not punished me yet so I suppose I'm good. ;) And I ever sin, well, we were created in His image weren't we? ;)

newlifeinphilippines wrote:Now your just lying every kid fears their parents unless like I said your parents never hit you or gave you a kind of God fearing punishment equivalent to Hell in the afterlife.


What sort of punishment could my parents give me that is "equivalent to Hell in the afterlife"? Like, slowly roast me on a grill if I curse? lol

newlifeinphilippines wrote:Your a very proud person I dont know if anyone has told you that but its pretty alarming. Thats probably why you choose to follow satan cause of your pride.


I do not follow Satan, I follow what my heart, my mind and common decency tells me is right.

newlifeinphilippines wrote:BTW Pascals wager is about someone who never believed but thinks at the last minute they can quickly cahnge their belifes. Ive always believed. Although im trying to confirm its sincere this time.


You may have always believed but it was (and is) the belief of a coward.


Yep just as I suspected you were never hit. So thats why you are so priedful, wishy washy and have no concept of fear and trembling and obeying. You are so full of yourself you think you are so great that God should let you in cause despite hating him and loving Satan you deserve it cause your so holy without even believing in him. Jesus said to work out salvation with fear and trembling. How parents treat their kids with strict punishment is how God treats his children.


If you do not follow Jesus you follow satan. The bible is clear on that. You can't be grey area on the issue.

BTW its kind of silly arguing about christianity with you since you dont even TRULY believe so the understanding of heaven and works and all that is beyond your comprehension cause your mixing in a worldly and multi religion view into it. BUT i entertain the discussion only cause your helping me to grow. :)
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby MarcosZeitola » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:18 pm

newlifeinphilippines wrote:Your upbringing of being coddled without ever being hit is probably why you think your so great and can get to heaven on your own works.


I was not coddled, far from it. But I was also not hit, because hitting a child is a sign of weakness and a good parent can punish his children using words and by linking consequences to their actions.

newlifeinphilippines wrote:BTW change is not instant its gradual over time and there will be setbacks. You act like the person no longer is human.


No longer human, me? I am very human, and very flawed. But I strive to better myself because I wish to do what is right, not because I fear devine retribution (which I don't).
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Re: Hey Catholics, the Vatican is a big bank

Postby newlifeinphilippines » Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:22 pm

MarcosZeitola wrote:
newlifeinphilippines wrote:Your upbringing of being coddled without ever being hit is probably why you think your so great and can get to heaven on your own works.


I was not coddled, far from it. But I was also not hit, because hitting a child is a sign of weakness and a good parent can punish his children using words and by linking consequences to their actions.

newlifeinphilippines wrote:BTW change is not instant its gradual over time and there will be setbacks. You act like the person no longer is human.


No longer human, me? I am very human, and very flawed. But I strive to better myself because I wish to do what is right, not because I fear devine retribution (which I don't).


No you are saying im not changed and Im saying that its a work in life progress no one stops sinning completely and they will have struggles along the way but it should be a gradual change over time but with ocassional setbacks. And you dont know my feelings.

BTW the bible says to hit your kids. so therefore if God commands parents to do it to kids then obviously he wants kids to be strictly in fear of their parents just like we are to be with God. Both are analogous to one another. Your worldy parental upbringin is not based on the bible which is why you think everyone can get to heaven cause you think God will have the same attitude where its lassez faire and anyone can get in as long as they do a fe good works and are not "too bad" LOL
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