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Why God is most likely NOT perfect, infallible or all good

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Why God is most likely NOT perfect, infallible or all good

Postby Winston » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:05 pm

Why our God(s) or Creator(s) is more likely to be semi-evil and imperfect than all good and perfect

In modern orthodox religions, there is this assumption that if there's a God or Creator, then he must be 100 percent perfect, flawless, all good, all wise, all knowing, all powerful and infallible. But this has no basis. Even if you establish the existence of a creator, such grandiose traits do not automatically follow by logic. It would seem that since religion was set up to control people, that these absolute attributes to God were probably created by church leaders to maintain maximum control, so that religious authority and scripture could not be questioned. It probably also serves to make people feel inadequate perpetually, since no one can measure up to perfection.

However, if you look at all the evidence and data objectively, it's much more likely that if there is a God or Creator, then he is much more likely to be at least semi-evil or have a dark side and thus IMPERFECT, than to be all good and perfect. Consider the following:

1. Nothing in our world is perfect. We all know that. Perfection doesn't exist in our world. Since creation is a reflection of the creator, it logically follows that the creator isn't perfect either.

2. In our world, every life form must survive by destroying other life and extracting its energy as food. Animals must kill other animals for food, And so do insects. Humans have to kill livestock for food too. And even vegetarians have to eat plants and vegetables to live. So we live in a world where we must all be parasites and take energy from other life in order to survive. It's a jungle world of predators and prey. There is no morality or peace or harmony in that. Nature is clearly cruel, heartless and murderous.

3. Most people who come to power are evil and/or corrupt. Evil tends to win in this world and gain power, since the more cruel you are, the more rich and powerful you become. (e.g. Stalin, Hitler, the Rockefellers, the Bush/Cheney Neo Cons, etc) So evil is rewarded in our world. Plenty of examples in history support this and make it obvious. Good leaders that want to help the common people (e.g. Lincoln, JFK, Gandhi) are assassinated, but evil leaders survive longer and do not get assassinated as much. The powers of evil and corruption tend to have their way in this world, at least on the macro scale.

4. Too many innocent people suffer and die in this world, often unjustly, and under forces they cannot control. War, disease, famine, poverty, murder, etc. all create suffering, pain and death, even on the innocent.

5. Most humans are slaves with no freedom. They have to toil and suffer in order to survive and make a living. No matter how advanced technology gets, even if it's advanced enough to free people from labor and money, as it probably is now, humans are still required to work long hours to survive. Most likely, it's because the elite rulers, or the Gods that run our planet, want it that way. They need to keep people busy so they don't think too much and become too wise, or start a revolution and take away the power of the elite cabals.

6. The God written about in the Bible is clearly not perfect or all good, but has many character flaws and an evil violent side too, according to many Biblical stories, if taken literally that is. He gets jealous, angry, orders violence, kills innocent children and people, commits mass murder, carries out unfair punishments, decrees unfair laws, etc. He even creates his own enemies such as the devil and demons, and lets them thwart his plans. And he sends billions of unbelievers (the majority of the world's population) to an eternal hell of everlasting punishment, just for not believing in Jesus. None of this makes any sense.

All of this indicates that if there is a God, then he must be at least semi-evil or has a dark side, and thus flawed and dualistic. Or else God is powerless or doesn't care or is no longer around. An all good and all powerful perfect God would never allow all the above. There's no way around this.

And NO, the Christian explanation that mankind is to blame for all this due to the fall in the Garden of Eden, does NOT account for all the above. How can anyone take seriously, the doctrine that all the evil and suffering in the world throughout history, is all due to the first human couple taking just one bite out of an apple or fruit that they weren't supposed to? Yet right. That is ridiculous beyond words and doesn't make one iota of sense. Even the Road Runner cartoons make a lot more sense than that. What kind of God would let one bite of an apple or fruit lead to all the pain, suffering and death in the world? No sane person can take such an explanation seriously.

Therefore, none of these religious claims about God's attributes make any sense. Just because the Christian Church or ministers or even the Bible claims all these things, doesn't make it true. Words do not create reality and authority is not truth. If the Church or Bible or some authority said that I looked like Britney Spears or that the Moon was made of Swiss cheese, would that make it true? Of course not. Truth is not determined by authority or words, but by evidence, reason and logic.

An important point here is that just because here is a creator or creators, or there are builders of this world, it does NOT then logically follow that these creators or builders MUST be perfect, infallible, all good, all wise, all knowing and all powerful, as religion claims. A creator or builder is just that, by definition, and does not necessarily imply the traits of perfection or flawlessness or infallibility.

Also, just because something or someone is bigger and more powerful than you, does not mean he or it has to be perfect, flawless and always right. For example, if an ant or insect entered a large house built by humans, and marveled at the size and magnitude of the creation of the house, and then assumed that the builder or builders of the house MUST be all powerful, all wise, all good, all just, infallible and perfect, would the ant or insect be right? Of course not. The builders of the house are humans, and as fallible as any other living creatures. Just because a human being is a lot bigger and more powerful than an ant or insect, does not mean that the human being must have infallible flawless attributes. It does not logically follow. You get the drift?

Or suppose the 30+ trillion cells in your body, all of which are living organisms, believed that YOU, their god, are all powerful, all knowing, all good, perfect and infallible. Would their belief be accurate about you? Of course not. You are a fallible flawed dualistic being, as you well know, even though you are a "god" to the cells in your body and your mind is "the mind of god" to them. You make mistakes and have character flaws and shortcomings, so why can't God? Why does a Creator "need" to be perfect? It doesn't make sense. Think about it.

Likewise, there is no logical reason to believe that the creators or builders of this world must have perfect and infallible attributes either, as Christianity and Islam claim. These are simply religious doctrines that are preached to you, which you are expected to take on faith, just because they say so. They do not have any logic or reason to them. They are simply tools of social control.

Moreover, the existence of a creator or builder does not imply that there must be only one of such, as monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam claim. We all know that it takes a team of workers to build a house, a team of engineers and architects to design something elaborate, and a team of game designers to construct a computer simulation. So why can't there be a team of creators or builders of our world too, as logic and common sense would presume? Just because religion says there can't be? It doesn't make sense.

Thus there is no logical reason to assume that a creator or deity MUST be perfect and infallible. That is just an assumption programmed into us by religion and our culture, perhaps to make us feel constantly inadequate since no one can measure up to perfection. The only explanation for this is that by getting people to believe in God's perfection and infallibility, they cannot question the authority of their religion or scriptures. This maximizes social control, which is what religion is all about.

Also, if God is all powerful, then:

-- How come God had to use a flood to wipe out the human race at the time of Noah? Why didn't he just zap everyone he wanted to eliminate with a laser or ray and leave Noah and his family unharmed?
-- How come God always needed humans to write his infallible scriptures? Why didn't God just write the Bible himself in heaven and then drop it down to his believers, so that there would be no human error?
-- Why did God make the Israelites wander in the desert with Moses for 40 years to find the promised land? Why didn't he just transport them in a space ship, or teleport them over to the promised land like in Star Trek?
-- Why did God need 6 days to create the world? Why not do it instantaneously like Q can do in Star Trek The Next Generation?
-- Why do so many faithful obedient servants of God in the Bible end up dying a martyr's death, including the Apostle Paul and greatest prophets? Why would God let his loyal followers and warriors get killed if he was all powerful? Why doesn't he protect them? If obeying God doesn't save your life, then what's the point?
-- Why does God let Satan ruin his plans and rule his world and let him run amok, if he's all powerful? Why does God wipe out his human enemies, but can't wipe out his arch enemy, especially if he's the cause of all the sin and mayhem on Earth?
Etc. Etc.

If God is all knowing, then why would he create mankind knowing that he would rebel and fall in the Garden of Eden? And why would he let the serpent roam around the Garden of Eden, knowing what would result? Why would he create mankind just to wipe them out in a great flood? Why would he create a world where the majority would die unsaved and thus go to hell for all eternity? Furthermore, why would he even need to punish people for all eternity? Why not just extinguish them and be done with that? That sounds insane and psychotic.

However, I don't think our Creator or God would be 100 percent evil either, or else he would have just wiped us all out by now, or disallow any good from happening in the world. So most likely, our Creator (or Creators) are something in between, either semi-evil or possess a dark side. This would make sense, since in our reality, everything exists as a duality and union of opposites, depicted by the Chinese Ying Yang symbol. Everything must have an opposite to exist: Light must have a dark, good must have evil, white must have black, day must have night, up must have down, justice must have injustice, past must have future, Democrats must have Republicans, etc. So likewise, it makes sense for God to have an evil or dark side too, just like we all do. It even says in Genesis that God said that he knows evil too: "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:22)

Perhaps Satan or the devil represents God's dark half, instead of a separate entity. God and Satan could be like Jekyll and Hyde. There are even Bible verses that indicate that God and Satan are the same person or on the same side. For example:

2 Samuel 24:1
"Once again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he caused David to harm them by taking a census. "Go and count the people of Israel and Judah," the LORD told him."

1 Chronicles 21:1
"Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and to the princes of the people, "Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan, and bring me word that I may know their number."

Interestingly, some of the Gnostic Gospels of the Nag Hammadi library -- discovered in 1945 in Egypt and considered to be among the Lost Gospels rejected from the official Church canon and suppressed -- actually say something like this. Some of the Gnostic texts reveal a stunning bombshell: That Satan is actually the God of the Old Testament in disguise, which they call a "demiurge", who imprisoned us in bodies in a world of physical matter in order to use and exploit us. And that's why there is so much evil and suffering in this world. So the devil's greatest deception wasn't in convincing the world that he doesn't exist, as Christians claim, but in convincing the world that he was God. It's a mind blowing revelation that turns Christianity on its head. No wonder such texts were suppressed and destroyed, and the Gnostic sects persecuted and wiped out.

According to this forbidden Gnostic teaching, Jesus actually came to save the world from the God or demiurge of the Old Testament, and was also sent by a higher good God to help free humanity of the lower "bad God" that created the world of matter. After all, Jesus did tell the Pharisees who followed Old Testament law that they were "children of the devil". So this implies that there are levels of Gods or deities. And it also says that the Serpent Lucifer (which means bringer of light) in the Garden of Eden, was also sent by a higher good God to liberate mankind from the demiurge creator. So the Bible story has it all backwards due to the demiurge's deception.

Anyway, the bottom line is that none of these religious claims about God's attributes make any sense. But humans still need something to believe in. Therefore, it makes sense to seek answers elsewhere. Remember that authority is not truth and truth does not come in a package like fast food. Truth is something you have to dig for and piece together like a puzzle. It's a process and journey of discovery that takes work and dedication. You have to really love truth and knowledge and have a philosopher's soul to go such a route, for it comes with a lot of uncertainty and confusion in unknowing. So it's not for everyone, especially those who need the certainty of organized religion and its prepackaged "truths". It requires being comfortable with not knowing and the ability to embrace the unknown. The life of a truth seeker can also be a lonely one, one which alienates you from groups and societies that prefer conformity to established beliefs. And sometimes, the only reward you get is getting to keep your integrity intact. As great philosophers and writers have said:

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." - Friederich Nietzsche

"Men have been taught that it is a virtue to agree with others. But the creator is the man who disagrees. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to swim with the current. But the creator is the man who goes against the current. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to stand together. But the creator is the man who stands alone." - Ayn Rand

Just remember though, once you start down the path of a truth seeker, you can never turn back. Once you find some answers or become more enlightened during your search, you cannot become unenlightened or unknow things. For example, if you discover a big secret, can you forget it and pretend you don't know about it? Keep that in mind.

“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.” - René Descartes
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Re: Why God is more likely to be evil or imperfect than all

Postby Cornfed » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:18 am

The Gnostics would say that the god of this world is not the real God, or to put it another way, somewhere between the mind of God and the projection of His will that is our apparent Universe, a discordinate strain of thought has been introduced. There may be an ultimate purpose to this, in the sense that we have to work through this lousiness for the mind of god to discover true perfection.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be evil or imperfect than all

Postby ladislav » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:14 am

In Buddhism, there is no God, but there's only the Law and the messy world of suffering to one or another extent devoid of the law. By evoking the law, you make things better for yourself.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be semi-evil than all good

Postby Winston » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:08 am

To learn more about the Gnostic teaching that the God of the Old Testament Bible is Satan in disguise, which is his greatest deception, check out this Gnosticism site and free ebook:

http://theforbiddenreligion.com/

Free ebook:
http://theforbiddenreligion.com/gnostic-book.htm

Statements of Gnosticism:
http://theforbiddenreligion.com/statements.htm

These doctrines do make a lot of sense and would explain a lot. But of course, it's very hard if not impossible to actually prove whether a theology like this is true or not. Such abstract concepts and ideas are neither provable or falsifiable. But they can make a lot of sense.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be evil or imperfect than all

Postby Winston » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:11 am

ladislav wrote:In Buddhism, there is no God, but there's only the Law and the messy world of suffering to one or another extent devoid of the law. By evoking the law, you make things better for yourself.


Yeah but Buddhism doesn't teach that there's no God. It teaches that the question of God is irrelevant and unknowable. So it's more agnostic than atheistic. Furthermore, Buddhism does not criticize the belief in God like atheists do, nor do they ridicule it as irrational.

Cornfed wrote:The Gnostics would say that the god of this world is not the real God, or to put it another way, somewhere between the mind of God and the projection of His will that is our apparent Universe, a discordinate strain of thought has been introduced. There may be an ultimate purpose to this, in the sense that we have to work through this lousiness for the mind of god to discover true perfection.


You are mixing Gnosticism and New Age. They don't teach the same theology. Gnosticism teaches that the God of this world created physical matter to enslave us, not that the universe is the projection of God's mind. That's something that the New Age teaches.

New Age also teaches that Satan doesn't exist, whereas some Gnostic texts teach that Satan is the God of this world and the one behind the Old Testament, in disguise and that that is his greatest deception, rather than fooling the world that he doesn't exist.

New Age also teaches that we are all fragments of the mind of God seeking to have experiences and trying to regain perfection. Gnosticism teaches that we need to liberate ourselves from the God of this world by discovering our suppressed spirit that is imprisoned in physical matter in the world of matter.

That's where they differ.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be semi-evil than all good

Postby RickyRetardo » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:53 am

Interestingly, a similar statement is in the Bible. God speaks in Isaiah 45:7

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

If you read the Old Testament and compare it to the New Testament, you can plainly see that they REALLY don't go together. God in the Old Testament is COMPLETELY unlike Jesus in every way. There might be a few exceptions, but not many.

God in the Old Testament kills people at the drop of a hat. He was even going to kill Moses until Moses's wife quickly cut off her son's foreskin with a rock and threw it outside their tent, which got God off Moses's back.

Can you imagine Jesus coming to kill Moses? Jesus isn't like that at all--yet he's supposedly a third of the same God. It doesn't add up.

Gnosticism makes more sense.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be semi-evil than all good

Postby Blank » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:36 pm

God tells you to be holy and good and to turn away from your sins and he is somehow evil? Are you thinking strait? Your the one who is evil. You like sodomy and fornication and adultery, lying and stealing. God loved mankind to such a degree that he sent his own son to die for our sins. If he were truly evil then he wouldn't of done that. When was the last time you did something like that? Would you give your life if it meant you could save another's? No, mankind is selfish and only think of themselves. Everyone is evil and God show compassion and love and we do nothing but say he's evil because he doesn't permit sin in his kingdom. You want to sin? You like violence? You want to have sex with lots of women? You hate the homeless? Who's really the evil one here?
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Re: Why God is more likely to be semi-evil than all good

Postby Winston » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:31 am

Blank wrote:God tells you to be holy and good and to turn away from your sins and he is somehow evil? Are you thinking strait? Your the one who is evil. You like sodomy and fornication and adultery, lying and stealing. God loved mankind to such a degree that he sent his own son to die for our sins. If he were truly evil then he wouldn't of done that. When was the last time you did something like that? Would you give your life if it meant you could save another's? No, mankind is selfish and only think of themselves. Everyone is evil and God show compassion and love and we do nothing but say he's evil because he doesn't permit sin in his kingdom. You want to sin? You like violence? You want to have sex with lots of women? You hate the homeless? Who's really the evil one here?


You are obviously totally brainwashed and have zero critical thinking skills. You just believe whatever you hear and whatever religion sounds good to you, and take it all on faith, and assume that authority=truth and religion=truth without basis. It's true just because they say so, according to you. Well that doesn't cut it. Sorry. Read my points and arguments again. Your post has no meaning or point.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be semi-evil than all good

Postby Winston » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:33 am

Some important points I added to the OP:

An important point here is that just because here is a creator or creators, or there are builders of this world, it does NOT then logically follow that these creators or builders MUST be perfect, infallible, all good, all wise, all knowing and all powerful, as religion claims. A creator or builder is just that, by definition, and does not necessarily imply the traits of perfection or flawlessness or infallibility.

Also, just because something or someone is bigger and more powerful than you, does not mean he or it has to be perfect, flawless and always right. For example, if an ant or insect entered a large house built by humans, and marveled at the size and magnitude of the creation of the house, and then assumed that the builder or builders of the house MUST be all powerful, all wise, all good, all just, infallible and perfect, would the ant or insect be right? Of course not. The builders of the house are humans, and as fallible as any other living creatures. Just because a human being is a lot bigger and more powerful than an ant or insect, does not mean that the human being must have infallible flawless attributes. It does not logically follow. You get the drift?

Or suppose the 30+ trillion cells in your body, all of which are living organisms, believed that YOU, their god, are all powerful, all knowing, all good, perfect and infallible. Would their belief be accurate about you? Of course not. You are a fallible flawed dualistic being, as you well know, even though you are a "god" to the cells in your body and your mind is "the mind of god" to them. You make mistakes and have character flaws and shortcomings, so why can't God? Why does a Creator "need" to be perfect? It doesn't make sense. Think about it.

Likewise, there is no logical reason to believe that the creators or builders of this world must have perfect and infallible attributes either, as Christianity and Islam claim. These are simply religious doctrines that are preached to you, which you are expected to take on faith, just because they say so. They do not have any logic or reason to them. They are simply tools of social control.

Moreover, the existence of a creator or builder does not imply that there must be only one of such, as monotheistic religions such as Christianity and Islam claim. We all know that it takes a team of workers to build a house, a team of engineers and architects to design something elaborate, and a team of game designers to construct a computer simulation. So why can't there be a team of creators or builders of our world too, as logic and common sense would presume? Just because religion says there can't be? It doesn't make sense.
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Re: Why God is more likely to be semi-evil than all good

Postby tom » Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:52 am

The closest thing the God would be church leaders, in particular mega churches.

Virtually all of these church leaders are malignant narcissist. But what Christianity does is limit them. Examples of religious leaders without constraint would be Charles Manson, Grigori Rasputin or David Miscavige. Without constraints a narcissist will suck everyone dry around them just to get there narcissistic supply. They are naturally self destructive. Christianity has naturally evolved to prevent narcissist from destroying the religion while simultaneity harnessing there perfect selfishness to the benefit of the religion.
Jesus was also an example of a narcissist. Most Christians fail totally at being Christ like.

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Re: Why God is most likely not perfect, infallible or all go

Postby Winston » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:51 am

In the original Star Trek episode called, "The Enemy Within" a transporter malfunction creates two Captain Kirks, one good and docile, the other evil, aggressive and uncontrollable. After a while, Spock and Mccoy realize that Kirk cannot survive as half a man, he needs both his good and evil side. So they have the transporter meld them back together at the end.

The moral is that man is both good and evil and needs both sides to live and function. Now, since man was made in the image of God, as the Bible says, it makes sense then that God would also be compromised of both good and evil qualities. Right? Wouldnt that logically follow?

Even in Genesis, after the fall of man, God says, "Behold man has become like us, knowing good and evil." So if man in his fallen state of good and evil has become like God, then that directly implies that God is a mixture of good and evil too. Hence not perfect.
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Re: Why God is most likely not perfect, infallible or all go

Postby Kradmelder » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:54 am

Same post on another thread. Winston are you hav :lol: ing a crisis of faith or have you taken a bite of a forbidden fruit? :lol:
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