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The Word became flesh

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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The Word became flesh

Postby fschmidt » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:43 pm

-----------------------------------
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

The Word became flesh
and took up residence among us.
We observed His glory,
the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

Indeed, we have all received grace after grace
from His fullness,
for the law was given through Moses,
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
-----------------------------------
John 1:1,14,16-17

In Greek, "Word" is "logos" which has much more meaning. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos

So "logos" is basically "reasoned discourse". So the above quotes are basically saying that in the beginning God was reasoned discourse as in the Old Testament. But then God became flesh through the Christian concept of Christ. This change was needed because people cannot understand reason, so a concrete "flesh" version of God is needed.

This is how I see the story. Jesus was a smart guy who realized that Judaism was off track. Jesus was charismatic enough to get his message out and get some followers. But then Jesus died. How could the followers of Jesus spread his message without Jesus's charisma? Certainly not by reason. The Old Testament had failed as could be seen by the state of Judaism at that time. Something new was needed. The solution was to make God flesh (concrete) by making Jesus devine.

No religion is based on reason. All give authority to something concrete. Judaism gives authority to the rabbis. Islam gives authority to the Quran. And Christianity gives authority to a concrete manifestation of God in Christ. I think Christianity is the best approach.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:37 pm

The prophets who deny Christ's divinity will receive the harshest punishment of all in hell. The blackness of darkness forever. You attempt to recruit people or become a preacher, you are a prophet. A false one. Beware.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Jude 1:10 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Jude 1:13 KJV

When the Bible says Jesus is the Word, it means He is the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. That is why He says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby fschmidt » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:51 pm

Adama, just curious, what do you think of Orthodox Christianity?
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:57 pm

fschmidt wrote:Adama, just curious, what do you think of Orthodox Christianity?



Do you mean Greek and Russian Orthodox, for example? My understanding is they are very similar to Catholicism. They do not believe the Bible, they teach salvation through works (sacraments) rather than through faith alone in Christ. Anyone who believes in their own works, rather than the work Jesus did on the cross through faith, is condemned by the Bible. (And for you morons who can not distinguish where I have gotten this doctrine from, I got it directly from the KJV, which you ought to look into, before you dismiss anything out of hand.)

Sacraments are things like baptism, marriage and other things which churches say must be done, which are all works.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby fschmidt » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:13 pm

Adama wrote:Do you mean Greek and Russian Orthodox, for example? My understanding is they are very similar to Catholicism. They do not believe the Bible, they teach salvation through works (sacraments) rather than through faith alone in Christ. Anyone who believes in their own works, rather than the work Jesus did on the cross through faith, is condemned by the Bible. (And for you morons who can not distinguish where I have gotten this doctrine from, I got it directly from the KJV, which you ought to look into, before you dismiss anything out of hand.)

Sacraments are things like baptism, marriage and other things which churches say must be done, which are all works.

Yes I mean like Greek and Russian Orthodox. Thank you for reminding me why Orthodox Christianity is my favorite Christianity.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Blue Murder » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:52 pm

Interesting. I might have to watch this thread.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby HouseMD » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:24 pm

Adama wrote:
fschmidt wrote:Adama, just curious, what do you think of Orthodox Christianity?



Do you mean Greek and Russian Orthodox, for example? My understanding is they are very similar to Catholicism. They do not believe the Bible, they teach salvation through works (sacraments) rather than through faith alone in Christ. Anyone who believes in their own works, rather than the work Jesus did on the cross through faith, is condemned by the Bible. (And for you morons who can not distinguish where I have gotten this doctrine from, I got it directly from the KJV, which you ought to look into, before you dismiss anything out of hand.)

Sacraments are things like baptism, marriage and other things which churches say must be done, which are all works.

The KJV I'd hardly a perfect translation. You should really learn some Greek and Latin, you're missing out.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:42 pm

HouseMD wrote:
Adama wrote:
fschmidt wrote:Adama, just curious, what do you think of Orthodox Christianity?



Do you mean Greek and Russian Orthodox, for example? My understanding is they are very similar to Catholicism. They do not believe the Bible, they teach salvation through works (sacraments) rather than through faith alone in Christ. Anyone who believes in their own works, rather than the work Jesus did on the cross through faith, is condemned by the Bible. (And for you morons who can not distinguish where I have gotten this doctrine from, I got it directly from the KJV, which you ought to look into, before you dismiss anything out of hand.)

Sacraments are things like baptism, marriage and other things which churches say must be done, which are all works.

The KJV I'd hardly a perfect translation. You should really learn some Greek and Latin, you're missing out.


No, you're being silly, Dr. Latin is a dead language. There is no reason to learn it. Besides that, the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew, not Latin. As for Greek, it would make sense to learn Greek if I were going to give the gospel to Greeks to try to show them the Bible way to heaven and salvation. Since the KJV is perfectly capable of getting English speaking people saved, there is no reason to learn Greek.

See, just as God created the languages at the termination of the Tower of Babel, He is also capable of getting the Bible into the English language.

In other words, if you think that a person must know Greek in order to be saved and/or to know God's Word, then you yourself had better be completely fluent in Greek. As in, you ought to be able to have a conversation with a Greek speaker, read modern and ancient Greek, understand what is said on the radio, etc. If you can not do those things, yet you recommend knowing Greek, you are both a hypocrite and a fool. If you are capable of those things, then you are not a hypocrite, but still a fool.

Of course we already know what kind of Christian you are. You're the kind that pays lip service to God but you deny that He has real power. You were right to put me on ignore. Don't bother me.
Last edited by Adama on Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:46 pm

fschmidt wrote:
Adama wrote:Do you mean Greek and Russian Orthodox, for example? My understanding is they are very similar to Catholicism. They do not believe the Bible, they teach salvation through works (sacraments) rather than through faith alone in Christ. Anyone who believes in their own works, rather than the work Jesus did on the cross through faith, is condemned by the Bible. (And for you morons who can not distinguish where I have gotten this doctrine from, I got it directly from the KJV, which you ought to look into, before you dismiss anything out of hand.)

Sacraments are things like baptism, marriage and other things which churches say must be done, which are all works.

Yes I mean like Greek and Russian Orthodox. Thank you for reminding me why Orthodox Christianity is my favorite Christianity.



Good. There are probably some Orthodox Christians who believe the Bible and are saved. I met a Lutheran woman last night who I believe was saved. She believes that we are saved by grace through faith, that salvation is the gift of God through belief in his only begotten Son, and that we can not lose it through our actions because as the scripture says (Ephesians 2:8-9) that is is not of works. She did mention that they take communion every Sunday, which most denominations do not do, and she herself finds it odd. But I am happy for her. There are probably some Catholics and Orthodox who are similar to her, who are really saved by accident and not because of their church doctrine.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Ghost » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:49 am

Adama wrote:No, you're being silly, Dr. Latin is a dead language. There is no reason to learn it. Besides that, the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew, not Latin. As for Greek, it would make sense to learn Greek if I were going to give the gospel to Greeks to try to show them the Bible way to heaven and salvation. Since the KJV is perfectly capable of getting English speaking people saved, there is no reason to learn Greek.

See, just as God created the languages at the termination of the Tower of Babel, He is also capable of getting the Bible into the English language.

In other words, if you think that a person must know Greek in order to be saved and/or to know God's Word, then you yourself had better be completely fluent in Greek. As in, you ought to be able to have a conversation with a Greek speaker, read modern and ancient Greek, understand what is said on the radio, etc. If you can not do those things, yet you recommend knowing Greek, you are both a hypocrite and a fool. If you are capable of those things, then you are not a hypocrite, but still a fool.


I'm far from an expert on languages, but even I see that translations ALWAYS miss things. That is the nature of languages - they are not a 1-to-1 deal. Even with more closely related languages this can be the case. With a book as big as the Bible especially, not everything will be perfectly accurate to the nature of the original. That's just the reality.

You remind me of this old joke:

A skeptic and a Bible-thumper were talking to each other. The skeptic asked, "What language does God speak?

The Bible-thumper replied, "God speaks English. Haven't you read the Bible?"
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:32 am

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:No, you're being silly, Dr. Latin is a dead language. There is no reason to learn it. Besides that, the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew, not Latin. As for Greek, it would make sense to learn Greek if I were going to give the gospel to Greeks to try to show them the Bible way to heaven and salvation. Since the KJV is perfectly capable of getting English speaking people saved, there is no reason to learn Greek.

See, just as God created the languages at the termination of the Tower of Babel, He is also capable of getting the Bible into the English language.

In other words, if you think that a person must know Greek in order to be saved and/or to know God's Word, then you yourself had better be completely fluent in Greek. As in, you ought to be able to have a conversation with a Greek speaker, read modern and ancient Greek, understand what is said on the radio, etc. If you can not do those things, yet you recommend knowing Greek, you are both a hypocrite and a fool. If you are capable of those things, then you are not a hypocrite, but still a fool.


I'm far from an expert on languages, but even I see that translations ALWAYS miss things. That is the nature of languages - they are not a 1-to-1 deal. Even with more closely related languages this can be the case. With a book as big as the Bible especially, not everything will be perfectly accurate to the nature of the original. That's just the reality.

You remind me of this old joke:

A skeptic and a Bible-thumper were talking to each other. The skeptic asked, "What language does God speak?

The Bible-thumper replied, "God speaks English. Haven't you read the Bible?"



There are problems in translating languages and they can not be translated word for word. Yes, everyone knows that. However, God has a way of repeating Himself for important doctrines. He will give you a story and he will repeat it, usually two times but sometimes more, in different words in the same passage (merely repeating the story), or He will put the same story in another book, written by another prophet, who uses different words for the same thing. In other words, whatever problem there may be with translating from Greek to English is already solved by the Bible itself. I hope that was clearly explained.

The language isnt the issue. The issue with understanding of the Bible is the issue of the unsaved vs the saved. When the believers (the saved) read the Bible, the Holy Ghost which indwells them is what interprets the meaning of the Bible for them. The Bible has real meaning for the saved. That is why they take it literally. The unsaved read the Bible and usually do not understand, and they will think it is complete bunk or merely allegories and illustrations at best.

The KJV wasn't translated by amateurs. The 54 men who translated the KJV were pure geniuses. Every last single one of them spoke nearly a dozen languages and were already Bible scholars. They translated it well, and probably some amateur reader, such as you, myself, and what's his name Dr, could not come close to the job these men did in translating the Book. There is no reason for me to read the Bible in Greek. I have the Bible in English, and it is accurate.

Now if you were right and God expected everyone to learn Greek and read the Bible in Greek to get to heaven, then that would prevent billions of people from making it there. That pretty much rules out the argument from a Bible believing point of view right there.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:36 am

Also, most of the quoted translation problems with the KJV that I can think of (which are always given by atheists) come from the lack of words in Greek rather than English. So reading a poorly expressed Greek language wouldn't help, since the problem is the Greek and not the translation.

Knowing those languages will probably not bring you to a deeper understanding of the Bible. Why? Because Greek in particular is the problem in many areas, because words in that language can mean different, yet very similar things. For example, grape juice and wine being the same word. Which is which? That is a problem with the Greek. It isnt a problem with the translation. Likewise with woman and wife. If the Greeks used the same word for both, how is reading it in Greek going to help? Knowing the Bible is what will help, not knowing another language. Why? Because you can compare the Bible with the Bible to figure out what they both mean. This is why God repeats the important stories multiple times, to make sure we can understand by comparing scripture with scripture. An example of this are the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They each tell the story of Jesus, but using different words.
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Ghost » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:22 am

Adama wrote:Now if you were right and God expected everyone to learn Greek and read the Bible in Greek to get to heaven, then that would prevent billions of people from making it there. That pretty much rules out the argument from a Bible believing point of view right there.


I never said that. Are you daft?
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Re: The Word became flesh

Postby Adama » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:43 am

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:Now if you were right and God expected everyone to learn Greek and read the Bible in Greek to get to heaven, then that would prevent billions of people from making it there. That pretty much rules out the argument from a Bible believing point of view right there.


I never said that. Are you daft?



That's a sad display if I write all that above to answer your question, yet you just come away with a statement so that you can try to pick a fight. Is that the kind of person you are? You want to pick a fight over bullcrap on the internet for no particular reason? Man, I would not want to be you.

I will never take anything you write seriously again.
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