Catholic Apologists Refute Protestantism as False Christianity and Their "Saved by Faith" Doctrine

[Mr_Truth]

No, those ministers probably are not saved.

This statement is based on the assumption that the ministers are not believers of Jesus.

According to "faith alone" supporters,

1. one must believe in Jesus to be saved.
2. if a believer sins, he is still saved anyway, regardless.

So how can you tell if those ministers are believers or not?

I would highly doubt God would let a saved person get away with that.

According to "faith alone" supporters, if a person believes in Jesus, then he is saved.

Therefore, the believer is going to Heaven anyway, no matter what sins he commits.

So actually, according to "faith alone" supporters, God DOES let a saved person get away with it.

First I would bet that God would put every obstacle in that saved person's way to keep him from committing such sin, but if the saved person was determined, eventually he might be able to do such a thing. At that point God would punish him severely, because homosexuality and adultery are both sins which are worthy of death. So if they were truly saved, they would be God's children, and He would punish them severely.

Since they are not God's children because they are not saved, He doesnt discipline them while they are alive. He just sends them straight to hell. If a saved person commits such sin, the physical body is destroyed. How do we know this? Because in Paul's time, a man was in fornication with his father's woman. Paul said that such a man needs to have his body delivered to Satan so that his soul could be preserved. That means the physical body must be punished or even destroyed, because God has promised not to send the saved (His children) to hell. Destruction of the body probably takes place as various diseases and death.

This is all consistent with what I said earlier:

according to "faith alone" supporters, a believer who sins would receive only a temporary, earthly punishment from God.

A believer knowing this would rest assured that no matter what his sin, or how often he committed them, he would end up in Heaven anyway.

And since death results in the believer's soul going to Heaven, the believer who sins is actually rewarded, NOT punished.

This is the logic of "faith alone."

[Mr_Truth]

One of our heroes was guilty of this. He was a married Reverend with a wife and children, yet he had hundreds of affairs each year, renting multiple sex workers for days at a time everywhere he went, with probably hundreds of women. He is even rumored to have had some sex partners who were men. Some men who participated in those orgies were other reverends.

This particular reverend never even believed that Jesus was God or that He is the Son of God. He just thought that He had a magnetic personality. Despite that, this unbeliever took the title of reverend. His real name is Michael King, but he was known by the false name of Rev Dr Martin Luther King Jr.

And how do you know that? Did he say (publicly or privately) he wasn't a believer?

According to "faith alone," one can sin mortally, despite believing in Jesus.

Also according to "faith alone," if he was a believer who committed those sins, he is in Heaven now, enjoying his eternal happiness. So then he wasn't punished for his sins. On the contrary, (according to "faith alone") he was rewarded.

[Mr_Truth]

Just look at these protestant ministers on TV (TV evangelists) who are cheating on their wives, molesting children, having homosexual affairs and extorting millions of dollars from their followers.

They believe that they aren't doing anything wrong because they are 'saved' by Jesus. These protestant ministers who do this are absolutely disgusting and a disgrace to the Christian faith.

Yes. "Faith alone" is so blatantly self-serving, it's amazing people don't see it for what it is: a pass to sin mortally, and get away with it.

According to the "faith alone" proponents, you're going to Heaven anyway. So why not sin now, while you can? Take the earthly punishment now (which is very temporary), and then after you die, enjoy Heaven forever.

Sins have different punishments, but any sin, regardless how small, will send an unbeliever to hell. All sins are mortal sins, because none are forgiven based on their man-made designation. God has His own rules. He isn't going by man's rules of which sins can be forgiven under what circumstances.

According to "faith alone," a believer is perfectly capable of sinning, and does sin.

Also according to "faith alone," if a believer sins, he is still going to Heaven anyway, no matter what. Outside of a public admission, there is simply no way to tell if one is an unbeliever or not.

And not all sins are mortal. There are mortal sins (grievous offenses that kill the soul e.g. murder, stealing, adultery, fornication, homosexuality), and then there are venial sins which are less severe, but still displeases God nevertheless. They are more easily pardoned.

[Adama]

Not everyone who claims to believe in Jesus actually believes in Him. He even says that, many will call Him Lord, Lord. So calling Jesus Lord is not enough to get a person saved. That doesnt mean they believed. Anyone can play lip service. That doesnt mean they believe. Yes, you are correct. We cannot see who believes and who doesnt.

As for getting away with sin and still winning by going to heaven, how steep a price is that to pay to get to heaven? If a believer jumps in front of a bus he will be rewarded with heaven. That doesn't meant jumping in front of a bus is desirable. There are plenty of Christians who have no desire to commit adultery, murder, rape, kidnapping, beastality or homosexuality. There is very little temptation there, except for adultery for some people.

What happened to King David when he had Uriah killed and committed adultery with his wife? God took the life of his son. Do you remember that? That was the price. He also promised David that the sword would never leave his house. Meaning all the kings in the line of David thereafter had to pay for David's sin.

Is this getting away with sin? No, but you can have it your way. If God renders judgment and punishment, then I say that God is just. If you do not think that punishment is sufficient, and that men like King David should reside in an unspeakable place, then it is only your lack of knowledge.

[jamesbond]

Here are some of the protestant ministers (this is just a partial list) who either cheated on their wives, had homosexual affairs or scammed millions of dollars from their followers.

Jim Bakker, who in 1989 drugged and raped 21 year old church secretary Jessica Hahn. He was married at the time and eventually admitted his affair to his wife and church followers. Also, he scammed millions of dollars from his church followers throughout the 1980's. Bakker was indicted on eight counts of mail fraud, 15 counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy. He was sentenced to 45 years in federal prison and a $500,000 fine. On November 16, 1992, a sentence reduction hearing was held and Bakker's sentence was reduced to eight years.

To this day, Bakker says all of his 'sins' are covered under the blood of Christ and he has no doubts he will go to heaven.

Oral Roberts scammed millions of dollars from his TV evangelical followers. In January 1987, during a fundraising drive, Roberts announced to a television audience that unless he raised $8 million by that March, God would "call him home." He raised $ 9.1 million. Not all that money went to where Oral Roberts said it was going. He lived a lavish lifestyle thanks to people donating him millions of dollars.

Jimmy Swaggart was a famous evangelical minister in the 1980's. In 1988, Swaggart (who was married) was implicated in a sex scandal involving a prostitute that resulted initially in his suspension, and ultimately defrocking, by the Assemblies of God. Three years later Swaggart was implicated in another scandal involving a prostitute. He fully believes any wrong doing on his part was covered under the blood of Christ (but of course he chastised anyone who cheated on their spouse).

Ted Haggard was the pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado and was the president of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) from 2003 until November 2006. He admitted that he had an ongoing homosexual affair for years and also used crystal methamphetamine with his homosexual lover. Haggard has been married to his wife since 1978 and they have 5 children. He often stated while preaching to his followers on Sunday mornings that all homosexual will burn in hell. He believes since he is saved, he will not go to hell.

[Moretorque]

Christers are easily manipulated and easy game, just ask the Jews.

[Adama]

It is highly unlikely that a TV minister is saved. Who runs the media? Satan's children run the media. There is no way they are going to promote a man who teaches the truth about Christ. Just like Joel Osteen, Islam and Catholicism, TV preachers preach a different Jesus from that of the Bible.

Anyone can claim to be saved. It doesn't mean they are saved. Since you people have no clue what I am writing about, let me rephrase. Anyone can claim they believe in Jesus through faith alone without works. That doesn't mean they actually believe. There is lots of money in giving lip service to God while preaching a watered down, fake gospel.

In fact when you think about how much people hate God and the Bible, it makes even more sense. Do you think a man who actually loves God and preaches the truth about Jesus would have 2000 or 20,000 people in his auditorium? No, because people hate the gospel. Just watch as Cornfed tries to squirm every which way to try to justify fornication when it is spelled out clearly in the Bible. Of course there must be a different definition to the word fornicate. And of course Paul is a liar.

My point is that people hate God, they hate the Bible, they hate Jesus. Anyone preaches the true gospel is therefore hated. Didnt Jesus say that people hate Him? Why then would you believe a TV preacher would preach the truth? So they he can become hated and be poor when the fake Christians abandon him for telling them the truth?

[Adama]

You guys believe TV preachers really mean something? That's because you love the world. You cannot even conceive of a religion that isnt international and broadcast on TV. Real religion will never be shown to you on TV. Just like they will not show dead Palestinian babies on American TV. What kind of world do you think we live in? Are you so naive as to believe that the truth can be broadcasted for millions to absorb? No, the truth is suppressed. They would rather kill millions of people than let the truth out. And I don't even mean the truth about salvation. I mean any truth. When is the last time you believe the TV told you the truth about much of anything? It is naivety to the extreme to believe that the producers on TV would promote the true gospel. Meanwhile on the same channel they are showing Charlie Sheen having orgies with multiple women he picks up at bars on his TV shows, and they show blood, guts, gore in cartoons. And every TV show is filled with adultery and murder. Yet somehow these same people who broadcast filth love Jesus enough to allow the truth to be broadcasted about him?

The same people who want the NWO run the media. Just ask Ted Turner of CNN who thinks you shouldnt be able to have babies or a large house. You believe those liars on TV, yet you don't believe the Bible. And if someone pointed you toward the Bible, you'd point them to another man-made lie of an established, unchanged "church" which has existed for 2,000 years. When in reality, you practice the religion of Constantine, the Greeks and the Romans, just with a Christian veneer.

[Adama]

double post

[Adama]

Matthew 9:22

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.


Matthew 8:13

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.


Matthew 21:32

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


Luke 1:45

45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.


Luke 8:12

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


Luke 8:50

50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.


John 1:7

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.



John 1:12

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


John 2:23

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.


John 4:39

39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.



John 4:41

41 And many more believed because of his own word;



John 4:50

50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.


John 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

There are about another 200 verses I could post which reference either faith alone or believing/believe/belief alone. That Catholic doctrine is going to take you on a one way trip to hell. Keep ignoring the gospel while believing in the tradition of men known as the Holy Roman Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Roman Church. You'll be judged by your works, just as you wish. It is only too bad that God makes it clear in the New Testament: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16


Good luck to you unbelievers who think you are believers. Or rather, I hope you get saved before you die or before you become reprobate. Good chance that ignoring the gospel when it is clearly spelled out for you is a good way to become a reprobate by rejecting the Holy Ghost. It's easy to be saved. Just believe. The false prophets on TV are sent there to make it difficult for you to believe by specifically making a bad example of what Christianity is.

[Adama]

[Winston]

Did anyone see that "Myths about the Catholic Church's dark history" thread I started?

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=27109

Apparently, there are authors and YouTubers now who are revisionists and apologists for the Catholic faith. They are trying to claim that all the bad things that are commonly believed about the Catholic Church's history, such as the Crusades, Inquisition, trial of Galileo, were either untrue or blown way out of proportion, according to primary source documents. Their claim is that Protestant England made up most of those things to try to make the Catholic Church look bad. Now, I know that history is written by the victors, and England's version of history seems to be what the world knows, and I'm sure the Catholic Church has gotten an unfairly bad rap that makes it look like a bad villain, but these Catholic revisionists are trying to make it out as though the Catholic church never did any wrong, which is too extreme in the other direction. What do you think? See the thread above and let me know what you think.

[Winston]

These videos make some sense. There does seem to be some logic behind the catholic church being more original than the protestant churches. I mean, before the reformation, the catholic church was the sole Christian church in europe for nearly 1000 years. Now, if the protestant church was the "true church" then it would mean that God suppressed his true word for 1000 years and kept it from the world that long. That seems too improbable and illogical. A God that would allow his true message and true religion to disappear for a thousand years and allow a false church to run amok that long just doesnt make sense. So protestantism doesnt make much sense.

The Catholic church also got a bad rap from english history which was controlled by the protestants. According to Diane Moczar, author of "Seven Lies About Catholic History", points out that all the original historical documents paint a different image of the Catholic churchs history than western history books do. They show that the church was far less corrupt than what is portrayed.

That being said, it is also possible that the Catholic church corrupted Jesus Christ's original message for political reasons, which almost all historians concur with. So it may not represent Jesus's original teachings.

[Adama]

These videos make some sense. There does seem to be some logic behind the catholic church being more original than the protestant churches. I mean, before the reformation, the catholic church was the sole Christian church in europe for nearly 1000 years. Now, if the protestant church was the "true church" then it would mean that God suppressed his true word for 1000 years and kept it from the world that long. That seems too improbable and illogical. A God that would allow his true message and true religion to disappear for a thousand years and allow a false church to run amok that long just doesnt make sense. So protestantism doesnt make much sense.

The Catholic church also got a bad rap from english history which was controlled by the protestants. According to Diane Moczar, author of "Seven Lies About Catholic History", points out that all the original historical documents paint a different image of the Catholic churchs history than western history books do. They show that the church was far less corrupt than what is portrayed.

That being said, it is also possible that the Catholic church corrupted Jesus Christ's original message for political reasons, which almost all historians concur with. So it may not represent Jesus's original teachings.

Definition of Bible Church : a Christian congregation.

Church means an assembly of believers, also known as a congregation. The church is the assembly of the believers. It is not the building. The building where Christians meet is the church building, not the church. The church likewise is not an international mega institution. It is the assembly of believers. Therefore God does not recognize the Roman Catholic Church, or the Lutheran Church or any other church, because He has not set up international institutions to represent Him. He left us The Word of God. That is what He promised to preserve. He never promised to preserve any human institution based upon the traditions of men.

[Winston]

Outside the Roman Catholic church, there is no salvation.

What about Orthodox Christianity?

This guy I listen to named James Perloff, who is very sharp and knowledgeable, says the Eastern Orthodox Church is the closest to the true Christian faith of the original Christians. I haven't researched it so I don't know why that is, but he talks about it here in this interview. Is Eastern Orthodox and Greek Orthodox the same thing?