Visiting the Mennonite Churches

[Adama]

These are wonderful verses about salvation by faith. Do you expect someone who believes not to bear fruits and actually be righteous?

James 2 says,
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Here is another verse from that passage:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Is it wrong to expect a man with faith to show evidence of it in his life?

James 2 is unfortunately a stumbling block that many will never overcome. These people who believe in Lordship Salvation believe that it proves that works must accompany faith for salvation. But all you need for salvation is faith. And if faith is dead, then it must have been alive at some point. But even then, even if the faith was always dead, the person would still be saved, because the requirement is faith, and if faith is dead, it still exists. Just like a dead body still exists without the soul. Or does the body not exist because the soul has departed? The body is still there and still exists without the soul, just it is not alive.

And people completely miss the point of James 2 which is sad. Read the chapter. It is about helping the brethren who are in need of food and such essentials. Instead of simply giving them a blessing, it means that they should give them what their body needs. That is the completion of their faith which makes it alive. This is not about salvation at all.

And the very fact that James could write that faith can be dead already shows us that a person can have dead faith and still be saved. Else how could it be he is writing to the brethren? That's rhetorical.

[Adama]

You make it seem like salvation is a matter of holding to the right doctrinal statment, confession, or understanding, rather than a matter of faith. Someone can claim right doctrines, without his heart being right before God.

Unfortunately this also shows your lack of understanding. You contradict yourself without knowing. And it shows that you don't even understand what I've written. You're confused about salvation.

1. Where did I imply any of that which you have written? If you can see that which is not there, then that is not good.
2. It is clear that I have been writing all along that it is faith alone. Somehow you see something which I havent written which is amazing in itself.
3. You contradict yourself with your Lordship salvation beliefs, claiming that there must be proof through righteousness. This right here shows that you yourself are confused about the nature of "faith alone" and you have added in works through the side door. Else, why are you posting about the Will of The Father if you truly believe it is by faith alone?
4. It seems to me that you believe that the saved are sinless somehow, which I don't understand how anyone can believe that.

As for the Jews, the Bible does say they are contrary to all men. That means they are against humanity. You skipped that part? Have you read the parable of the Husbandmen? That tells us exactly what the Jews are doing on this earth.

[Adama]

You people are a bunch of psychotic retards. I'm convinced that if you spouted your crap to real Christian men, such as the men of Nagaland mentioned in a recent thread, they would beat the shit out of you or burn you at the stake or whatever.

[fschmidt]

You people are a bunch of psychotic retards. I'm convinced that if you spouted your crap to real Christian men, such as the men of Nagaland mentioned in a recent thread, they would beat the shit out of you or burn you at the stake or whatever.

Except, of course, for the Mennonites who are real Christians but are nonviolent, so they would just feel sorry for these people for being psychotic retards. And maybe the Mennonites are right after all, since violence isn't needed because these men will naturally remove themselves from the gene pool.

[Adama]

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father?

John 6:40KJV And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In Matthew 21, Jesus told a parable about a father who told his sons to work in his vineyard and asked which of the sons did the will of his father. Paul wrote that 'your sanctification' is the will of God, that ye abstain from fornication. Paul also wrote that giving thanks in everything was the will of God.

I gave you the direct definition of what the Will of the Father is, and you can't accept it.

I wonder if it says, "Abstain from fornication and be saved"? Does it say, "Abstain from fornication and ye shall have everlasting life"? No? Then why would anyone think that it implies that. Especially when we know salvation is by faith alone from the multiple of other scripture, people are going to go on to quote an irrelevant verse to claim it is by works or keeping the law? Seriously?

So a person now must "give thanks to God for everything" to be saved, instead of simply having faith in Christ? A person must abstain from fornication to be saved? Well if that is true then there will not even be an adulterer in heaven. So we know that cannot possibly be true, and it must be that you have misinterpreted scripture!

Why would a person quote scripture that says the Will of the Father is to do good works or to keep the law, when they say they believe that salvation is by grace (God's unmerited favor, also known as the free gift and free grace) through faith without works?

So you'd rather believe that The Will of the Father is "do good works" or "abstain from sin" (just paraphrasing what you wrote above in Biblical terms), than believe that The Will of the Father is simply to believe in Jesus Christ, especially when I posted a verse proving that's what it means?

Do you see now how illogical that is?

[Eric]

The ROMAN Catholics are the real Christians, how could people be this dumb.


All that millenia of history and accomplishment - that deep and rich well of culture to draw from.... spanning the Greco- Roman empire.

You just throw it away - because of a clever trick the Protest ants played to sever you from ties to your faith & culture.

[Kradmelder]

Take cover everyone. The God botherers are slinging pulp scripture.

[fschmidt]

The jewish assault on christianity has long been documented

A minor correction here... The assault is by judaism (religion) not jews (race). After all, Jesus and Paul were jews and I don't remember them assaulting christianity.

[Eric]

fschmidt is right, Christians are very stupid.

[Adama]

My poor comrades.

[MrMan]

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father?

John 6:40KJV And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In Matthew 21, Jesus told a parable about a father who told his sons to work in his vineyard and asked which of the sons did the will of his father. Paul wrote that 'your sanctification' is the will of God, that ye abstain from fornication. Paul also wrote that giving thanks in everything was the will of God.

You are confused. You are the one woodenly interpreting the phrase 'will of God' to mean one thing in one instance, but not in another. I didn't say one had to give thanks in everything to be saved. That's your conclusion, drawn by applying your own interpretation techniques, not mine. There are many things that are the will of God. It is the will of God for us to believe in the Messiah. It is the will of God that we be sanctified and abstain from fornication. It is the will of God that we give thanks in everything. One day, many will call Jesus Lord. Even though they think of Him as Lord... which means they might even claim to believe in Him... they will be rejected. We see in the passage that they are workers of iniquity who have not done the will of the Father.

I gave you the direct definition of what the Will of the Father is, and you can't accept it.

Maybe you should look up 'definition' in the dictionary.

If that is the definition, do you think that Paul was wrong to say that it was the will of God to abstain from fornication. Do you have to present your body as a living sacrifice to know how to believe in Jesus? Treating phrases like this, like you are doing with 'will of God' as something other than what the words mean can lead to some confused interpretations.

Why would a person quote scripture that says the Will of the Father is to do good works or to keep the law, when they say they believe that salvation is by grace (God's unmerited favor, also known as the free gift and free grace) through faith without works?

If God purposed before hand for the saints to do good works, like the Bible teaches, why would you have a problem with saying that believers doing good works is the will of God?

So you'd rather believe that The Will of the Father is "do good works" or "abstain from sin" (just paraphrasing what you wrote above in Biblical terms), than believe that The Will of the Father is simply to believe in Jesus Christ, especially when I posted a verse proving that's what it means?

I believe it is God's will that we believe in Jesus. I also believe that we be sanctified and abstain from fornication, and that we give thanks in everything. 'Will of God' is made up of words and has a meaning. It's not a meaningless phrase that has to be defined to mean something different from what the words mean.

Do you see now how illogical that is?

If you are talking about the previous paragraph of yours that I just responded to, yes.

[Kradmelder]

fschmidt is right, Christians are very stupid.

God did give man Free Will. The Christians who choose not to use their free will and just blindly follow what they are told to follow by some man masquerading behind a bible and try to get everyone to conform using this club would fit this description. Many God botherers fall into this category.

[Adama]

Mr Man.

Salvation is by faith alone.

I will set up a math problem here.


Salvation is by faith alone = salvation is by faith alone.

Therefore we know that:

The Will of the Father = Salvation by faith alone.

What is the Will of the Father. It is to believe in the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

The Will of the Father = Believe in Jesus Christ.

The Will of the Father = Believe in Jesus Christ = Salvation by faith alone.

Yet somehow you're confused and conflate The Will of the Father with The Will of God (that in itself will be impossible to overcome, because although God is the Father it is clear there is a distinction made here; another stumbling block).

Somehow you believe this:

The Will of the Father = The Will of God = Work salvation = Faith alone. Which does not compute.

The Will of the Father cannot = Work because we know that salvation is by faith alone.

So if you are saying The Will of The Father = Work then that nullifies Faith Alone. And you can't even see this, proving you are confused.

[Adama]

Take cover everyone. The God botherers are slinging pulp scripture.

The Book of Jude describes in the last days there will be scoffers and mockers who walk after their own lusts. You've even invented or are repeating a new insult against God and His people: "God botherers". That is up there with blasphemy and slander, and you write such insults without trembling. You also dare to call the Word of God pulp scripture.

It is quite clear here. Instead of avoiding the discussion or keeping a certain level of dignity, you descend into insults.

Personally I don't care what you do with your life. I don't write anything for you. You've admitted to abject hatred of the black race and the poor who are both God's people. I might understand if you simply hated barbarians. But your hatred is aimed at blacks in general and at poor whites. Those people are made in God's image and God has chosen the poor, whom you mock.

Also, you claim to be godly, but you brag about your divorce and brag about engaging in extramarital intercourse after divorce with multiple women, in violation of God's laws. So we see that you are not just disobedient but openly and unashamed and even a braggart.

Why would I care what you think about anything? And why do you bother giving lip service to God when you obviously hate Him and anyone who preaching His Word.

In a post which I have not quoted, you go on to diminish the Bible, which is the Word of God.

Have at your free will. Satan and Eve also had free will. Free will to choose evil. And you abide in slander and blasphemy and mocking, which are not good works.

Leave us be, Henrik.

[Adama]

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father?

John 6:40KJV And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In Matthew 21, Jesus told a parable about a father who told his sons to work in his vineyard and asked which of the sons did the will of his father. Paul wrote that 'your sanctification' is the will of God, that ye abstain from fornication. Paul also wrote that giving thanks in everything was the will of God.

You are confused. You are the one woodenly interpreting the phrase 'will of God' to mean one thing in one instance, but not in another. I didn't say one had to give thanks in everything to be saved. That's your conclusion, drawn by applying your own interpretation techniques, not mine. There are many things that are the will of God. It is the will of God for us to believe in the Messiah. It is the will of God that we be sanctified and abstain from fornication. It is the will of God that we give thanks in everything. One day, many will call Jesus Lord. Even though they think of Him as Lord... which means they might even claim to believe in Him... they will be rejected. We see in the passage that they are workers of iniquity who have not done the will of the Father.

I gave you the direct definition of what the Will of the Father is, and you can't accept it.

Maybe you should look up 'definition' in the dictionary.

If that is the definition, do you think that Paul was wrong to say that it was the will of God to abstain from fornication. Do you have to present your body as a living sacrifice to know how to believe in Jesus? Treating phrases like this, like you are doing with 'will of God' as something other than what the words mean can lead to some confused interpretations.

Why would a person quote scripture that says the Will of the Father is to do good works or to keep the law, when they say they believe that salvation is by grace (God's unmerited favor, also known as the free gift and free grace) through faith without works?

If God purposed before hand for the saints to do good works, like the Bible teaches, why would you have a problem with saying that believers doing good works is the will of God?

So you'd rather believe that The Will of the Father is "do good works" or "abstain from sin" (just paraphrasing what you wrote above in Biblical terms), than believe that The Will of the Father is simply to believe in Jesus Christ, especially when I posted a verse proving that's what it means?

I believe it is God's will that we believe in Jesus. I also believe that we be sanctified and abstain from fornication, and that we give thanks in everything. 'Will of God' is made up of words and has a meaning. It's not a meaningless phrase that has to be defined to mean something different from what the words mean.

Do you see now how illogical that is?

If you are talking about the previous paragraph of yours that I just responded to, yes.

You're very confused and that's why nothing which you write is clear.

Of course the Will of God is that we should live holy lives. That is obvious. However, that has nothing to do with salvation, which is by faith of Jesus Christ alone. Remarkable how you even conflate the issue. Yes, we must be obedient, but that has nothing to do with salvation other than believing in Christ by faith alone.

You do not distinguish between any of this. Why would anyone mention the Will of God regarding salvation, and then show that the will of God is works based, and then go on to say salvation is simply by believing in Jesus.

See, many people think that believing means believe + obey. No, believing means believing and obeying means obeying. We believe for salvation. We obey because we love Him, because He wants us to be holy, and because we want to preserve our lives and live long upon the earth.

You can believe and still be a sinner, but your life will be destroyed and possibly end early. Believing doesn't mean the person automatically acts holy. Somehow deluded people think that their flesh and their body become sinless through belief. The body is not yet redeemed. These people honestly believe the proof of their salvation is a sinless life, as if anyone except Jesus could be sinless.

This is damnable heresy. There is no proof of salvation other than faith. That's it. There are carnal Christians. Just they have to answer to God for it. They are still saved.

You think when someone gets saved the proof is that they no longer engage in bad activity when that is untrue. That just means God will chastise His children who disobey. It doesn't make them Christ because they believe in Christ. They are still human. They still have sinful flesh, and many still walk in the flesh. It is the soul that is redeemed, not the body. The body will be redeemed at the Second Coming of Christ.

What is the name of your Christian denomination? I bet you won't answer that.