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The Truth Behind Islam

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: fschmidt, jamesbond

Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby MrPeabody » October 12th, 2017, 4:07 pm

Yohan wrote:
Adama wrote:I can't believe anyone makes those arguments which these two apologists for Islam make.


Apologists? :roll:

For apologists they are remarkably silent, for example my questions about apostasy and blasphemy laws remain unanswered.

Complaining about a tree cut down in medieval times, but ignoring the destruction of the 53 yard high Buddha of Bamiyan and other religious objects not even 2 decades ago with anti-tank mines and artillery fire.

interesting also the claim that 1 Muslim man is 33 more valuable than 1 Hindu woman. Funny to allow a Muslim man to marry 4 infidel girls, but being totally against any infidel man who wants to marry 1 (only one!) Muslim woman in return.

The point is they have no explanation for that, so they respond solely with BS-comments. For example claiming religious freedom in Islam in Iran - which Shia religion they reject, or claiming easy communication between infidels and a small group of these Ahmadiyya Islamists, who are not allowed in Islamic countries to call themselves Muslims - despite they are using the Quran as their religious source. Hypocrites.

Religious freedom with one certain religion above (=Islam) and all other religions (including atheism) under it, is simply said not religious freedom. And not to talk about blasphemy laws and apostasy laws to remove quickly such people who do not agree with such childish arguments.


We know there are blasphemy laws, so what is your point? You sound like the typical Western Imperialist who feels you have the right to dictate what other people do in their own countries. Furthermore, until recently most Christian countries had blasphemy laws including the death penalty. The only reason a country doesn't have blasphemy laws is because it is run by a secular government. In the past 100 years, the US and Britain have done everything they can to undermine secular governments in the Islamic world. The full blame for this can't be put on Islam.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 12th, 2017, 5:04 pm

MrPeabody wrote:You sound like the typical Western Imperialist who feels you have the right to dictate what other people do in their own countries...


It's quite funny that people like you are the first who complain about countries which are kicking out all Muslims, like Myanmar claiming 'human rights' and what has Myanmar to do with 'Western countries'.... This is a Buddhist country in SouthEast Asia...

http://www.businessinsider.com/myanmar-working-with-china-russia-to-avoid-un-rebuke-over-persecution-of-muslims-2017-9
YANGON/SHAMLAPUR, Bangladesh (Reuters) - Myanmar said on Wednesday it is negotiating with China and Russia to ensure they block any UN Security Council censure over the violence that has forced an exodus of nearly 150,000 Rohingya Muslims to Bangladesh in less than two weeks.


Also interesting to see how silent you are about China and Russia, but what have China and Russia to do with Western countries, except that they too are mistrusting against anything which is Muslim? It's not only USA which is fighting against ISIS somewhere in Syria or Iraq. I am somehow astonished that you do not know that...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4955614/Two-Russian-mercenaries-executed-ISIS.html
Russian mercenaries captured by ISIS 'are executed after refusing to reject Christianity and become Muslim'


https://qz.com/945828/chinas-new-tactic-for-fighting-extremism-in-its-muslim-heavy-region-banning-abnormal-beards/
China’s new tactic to suppress Muslim separatists: banning veils and “abnormal” beards
The Uyghur people of China’s far-west Xinjiang region have long complained that government rules and policies discriminate against them. Things just got worse.
Yesterday authorities in the violence-prone region passed a new regulation that will surely lead to more resentment among the 10 million or so Uyghur, most of whom are Muslim and speak a Turkic language. They comprise about 45% of Xinjiang’s population; 40% are Han Chinese.
Taking effect on Saturday (April 1), the regulation bans over a dozen behaviors that authorities deem “abnormal.” Among them:
Refusing to watch state-controlled television
Refusing to listen to state-controlled radio
Wearing an “abnormal” beard
Wearing a veil
Preventing children from receiving national education
Using religious instead of legal procedures to marry or divorce
Meddling in other people’s weddings, funerals, or inheritance
Interfering with the enforcement of family planning policies
Intentionally damaging national identity cards, household registration books, or the Chinese currency
Of course it’s unclear how authorities would know whether someone has watched enough state TV or meddled in another person’s wedding. But then many laws in China are vague, which is useful to authorities wanting a wide berth in interpretation.


But for your narrow mind, it's all about Western capitalists that Muslims are suffering....

Tell me why do you not complain about China, Russia, Myanmar...You are quite naive if you blame all and everything on USA and Trump.
Obama had 8 years to regulate all this Muslim issues, but he also did nothing about it.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 12th, 2017, 5:14 pm

MrPeabody wrote:Do you realize that you are quoting fake news? Even the FBI has rejected the ISIS claim. Right, he was a shooter. And he shouldn't be called a "Christian shooter" just because he grew up in a Christian country. But similarly, a shooter shouldn't be called a Muslim just because he grew up in a Muslim country.


Interesting that you believe the FBI and US-sources are more reliable news than ISIS and their propaganda Amaq news network - so this means ISIS and its media Amaq news are nothing but liars and the FBI and Western media are telling us the truth?

You need not to grow up in a Muslim country to be a Muslim Jihadi killer and you need not to do this in Western countries either.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/russia-attack-isis-claims-responsibility-stabbing-siberia-surgut-latest-a7902176.html

Russia attack: Isis claims responsibility for stabbing rampage in Siberian city of Surgut
Eight people were wounded by a knifeman who was shot dead by police in the Siberian city of Surgut

Isis has claimed responsibility for a stabbing attack in Russia that injured eight people, the group's Amaq news agency has said.

A man was shot dead by police after knifing people apparently at random in the Siberian city of Surgut on Saturday morning.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 12th, 2017, 6:54 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/briton-apos-most-wanted-female-224024775.html

Full article see link above

British White Widow terrorist Sally Jones 'killed in drone strike'

The fugitive jihadi, who was once a punk rock singer, was said to have been killed in June in a US strike close to the border between Syria and Iraq.

For more than three years, Jones has been the world’s most wanted female terrorist and is now said to have become one of the list of infamous Britons to die after joining Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil).

She fled to Syria from Kent in 2013 to marry computer hacker Junaid Hussain, an Isil fighter from Birmingham, and took her then 11-year-old son, Joe “JoJo” Dixon, with her.

A Whitehall source told The Sun: “The Americans zapped her trying to get away from Raqqa. Quite frankly, it’s good riddance.”
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Misko_Varesanovic » October 13th, 2017, 12:29 am

Yohan wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:You sound like the typical Western Imperialist who feels you have the right to dictate what other people do in their own countries...


It's quite funny that people like you are the first who complain about countries which are kicking out all Muslims, like Myanmar claiming 'human rights' and what has Myanmar to do with 'Western countries'.... This is a Buddhist country in SouthEast Asia...

http://www.businessinsider.com/myanmar-working-with-china-russia-to-avoid-un-rebuke-over-persecution-of-muslims-2017-9
YANGON/SHAMLAPUR, Bangladesh (Reuters) - Myanmar said on Wednesday it is negotiating with China and Russia to ensure they block any UN Security Council censure over the violence that has forced an exodus of nearly 150,000 Rohingya Muslims to Bangladesh in less than two weeks.


Also interesting to see how silent you are about China and Russia, but what have China and Russia to do with Western countries, except that they too are mistrusting against anything which is Muslim? It's not only USA which is fighting against ISIS somewhere in Syria or Iraq. I am somehow astonished that you do not know that...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4955614/Two-Russian-mercenaries-executed-ISIS.html
Russian mercenaries captured by ISIS 'are executed after refusing to reject Christianity and become Muslim'


https://qz.com/945828/chinas-new-tactic-for-fighting-extremism-in-its-muslim-heavy-region-banning-abnormal-beards/
China’s new tactic to suppress Muslim separatists: banning veils and “abnormal” beards
The Uyghur people of China’s far-west Xinjiang region have long complained that government rules and policies discriminate against them. Things just got worse.
Yesterday authorities in the violence-prone region passed a new regulation that will surely lead to more resentment among the 10 million or so Uyghur, most of whom are Muslim and speak a Turkic language. They comprise about 45% of Xinjiang’s population; 40% are Han Chinese.
Taking effect on Saturday (April 1), the regulation bans over a dozen behaviors that authorities deem “abnormal.” Among them:
Refusing to watch state-controlled television
Refusing to listen to state-controlled radio
Wearing an “abnormal” beard
Wearing a veil
Preventing children from receiving national education
Using religious instead of legal procedures to marry or divorce
Meddling in other people’s weddings, funerals, or inheritance
Interfering with the enforcement of family planning policies
Intentionally damaging national identity cards, household registration books, or the Chinese currency
Of course it’s unclear how authorities would know whether someone has watched enough state TV or meddled in another person’s wedding. But then many laws in China are vague, which is useful to authorities wanting a wide berth in interpretation.


But for your narrow mind, it's all about Western capitalists that Muslims are suffering....

Tell me why do you not complain about China, Russia, Myanmar...You are quite naive if you blame all and everything on USA and Trump.
Obama had 8 years to regulate all this Muslim issues, but he also did nothing about it.


Firstly. no one here is blaming the maladies of the Muslim world on Trump (or indeed the United States). However, you seem to think that bombing a region back to the stone age and killing millions of innocent civilians is somehow defensible, which is quite amazing given that the US is also a huge loser as a result of these actions. Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz estimated a cost for the Iraq War of US$3tn back in 2007. God knows what the cost is now, but c.45m Americans on food stamps tells its own story. And that's just the financial cost - the reputational and IR costs can't even begin to be computed. It has ended the era of American global dominance.

http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/shocking-truth-of-uk-involvement-in-the-deaths-of-6-8-million-in-iraq-and-afghanistan/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Trillion_Dollar_War

https://www.rt.com/usa/331216-americans-food-stamps-restrictions/

Secondly, there is a central point which you don't seem to understand, so I'll spell it out for you: the US, together with its client state Saudi Arabia (and depending on the context, France, Israel, the UK, Qatar), helped create, fund and organise most of the non-state armed groups that plague the Middle East today. Take ISIS: this would not exist without the US. When you are talking of 'ISIS terror', the demarcation between ISIS and parts of the West is extremely blurry. Same with Al Qaeda, and before that, the Afghan mujahedin, who were to later morph into the Taliban:

http://www.businessinsider.com/reagan-freedom-fighters-taliban-foreign-policy-2013-2?IR=T

Thirdly, the label 'Islam apologist' is routinely thrown around by anyone who cannot compute that there is a reality out there beyond what they are drip-fed by certain extreme-right wing sections of the media. Personally speaking, I am not an apologist for Islam or any other religion. They are easy to criticise from a 'secular' perspective. But the same is true vice-versa.

Moreover, it is truly counterproductive to hold a strong and unwavering belief in the unique evil of one major world faith when judged by the same criteria, other major world faiths are considerably worse!

Take the example of adultery. Adultery is technically punishable in the Koran by corporal punishment, although in practice it is very difficult to do this because there have to be four witnesses of good character to said act. But in Christianity, adulterers are to be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:10):

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-10.htm

"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

It's the same for all the other tropes you mention apostasy, blasphemy, veiling...but you seem too entrenched in your worldview to notice that you're being deceived, which is a real shame.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 13th, 2017, 5:56 am

Misko_Varesanovic wrote:
Take the example of adultery. Adultery is technically punishable in the Koran by corporal punishment, although in practice it is very difficult to do this because there have to be four witnesses of good character to said act. But in Christianity, adulterers are to be stoned to death

It's the same for all the other tropes you mention apostasy, blasphemy, veiling...but you seem too entrenched in your worldview to notice that you're being deceived, which is a real shame.


I do not know about any country, which is not-Muslim, which has stoning in its laws in the year of 2017.
If you know even one, please let me know.

Stoning somebody to death legally for whatever the crime might be (including adultery) exists nowadays in Islamic countries only and nowhere else.

How can you deny that?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/special-report-the-punishment-was-death-by-stoning-the-crime-having-a-mobile-phone-8846585.html

Stoning is legal or practised in at least 15 countries or regions. And campaigners fear this barbaric form of execution may be on the rise, particularly in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Women's rights activists have launched an international campaign for a ban on stoning, which is mostly inflicted on women accused of adultery.


Stoning is set out as a specific punishment for adultery under several interpretations of sharia or Islamic law. In some instances, even a woman saying she has been raped can be considered an admission to the crime of zina (sex outside marriage).

In one case cited by Shameem, a 13-year-old Somali girl, Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow, was buried up to her neck and stoned by 50 men in front of 1,000 people at a stadium in Kismayu in 2008.


Even stoning a 13 y/o girl!

Stoning is also a legal punishment for adultery in Mauritania, a third of Nigeria's 36 states, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 13th, 2017, 7:25 am

Misko_Varesanovic wrote:Moreover, it is truly counterproductive to hold a strong and unwavering belief in the unique evil of one major world faith when judged by the same criteria, other major world faiths are considerably worse!

Take the example of adultery. Adultery is technically punishable in the Koran by corporal punishment, although in practice it is very difficult to do this because there have to be four witnesses of good character to said act. But in Christianity, adulterers are to be [b]stoned to death (Leviticus 20:10):

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-10.htm

"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

It's the same for all the other tropes you mention apostasy, blasphemy, veiling...but you seem too entrenched in your worldview to notice that you're being deceived, which is a real shame.


As an atheist, I don't care about the Bible and the Quran and what was written or happened thousands of years ago, but I care a lot about how governments and religious organizations represent themselves in the world of today.

I thnk ADAMA will answer your comment, he knows much more about the Bible than I do...

Christians are stoning adulterers in the name of Jesus.... says the Muslim.

Where, when?

ADAMA?
Last edited by Yohan on October 13th, 2017, 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby fschmidt » October 13th, 2017, 7:49 am

Yohan wrote:As an atheist, I don't care about the Bible and the Quran and what was written or happened thousands of years ago, but I care a lot about how governments and religious organizations represent themselves in the world of today.

As a realist, I don't care about how governments and religious organizations represent themselves. That is all propaganda of one kind or another, whether it is fake news or organizations twisting things for their agenda. The only thing I care about is direct experience, what I see with my own eyes. And in my direct experience, Anabaptists and Muslims are the only sane decent people left in this world.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 13th, 2017, 9:17 am

fschmidt wrote:As a realist, I don't care about how governments and religious organizations represent themselves. That is all propaganda of one kind or another, whether it is fake news or organizations twisting things for their agenda. The only thing I care about is direct experience, what I see with my own eyes. And in my direct experience, Anabaptists and Muslims are the only sane decent people left in this world.


Interesting to see Anabapists and Muslims mentioned in the same sentence for the first time.
Nowadays Anabapists are few, consisting of some small groups - somehow strange people but they do not harm anybody.
No idea what they could have in common with Islam.

About Muslims, they are at odds with each other but blaming the infidel for their own shortcoming.
Many Muslim countries are nothing but an economic mess, others are ruled by despotes swimming in money, others are nothing but a war-zone -
It's a sad world which does not offer any pleasure for anyone.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Adama » October 13th, 2017, 12:52 pm

Yohan wrote:
Misko_Varesanovic wrote:Moreover, it is truly counterproductive to hold a strong and unwavering belief in the unique evil of one major world faith when judged by the same criteria, other major world faiths are considerably worse!

Take the example of adultery. Adultery is technically punishable in the Koran by corporal punishment, although in practice it is very difficult to do this because there have to be four witnesses of good character to said act. But in Christianity, adulterers are to be [b]stoned to death (Leviticus 20:10):

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-10.htm

"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

It's the same for all the other tropes you mention apostasy, blasphemy, veiling...but you seem too entrenched in your worldview to notice that you're being deceived, which is a real shame.


As an atheist, I don't care about the Bible and the Quran and what was written or happened thousands of years ago, but I care a lot about how governments and religious organizations represent themselves in the world of today.

I thnk ADAMA will answer your comment, he knows much more about the Bible than I do...

Christians are stoning adulterers in the name of Jesus.... says the Muslim.

Where, when?

ADAMA?



Should adulterers be put to death? God says they should be. Are Christians enforcing this commandment against adultery anywhere? No. Getting rid of female adultery would go far though, in cleaning up modern society. Besides that, it isn't like these people are innocent before God. God says that adultery should carry the same punishment as murder: death. That's how bad God considers adultery to be.

And when you think about it, shouldn't there be some punishment for some man taking your wife from you? Or for your wife going with another man? That needs to be heavily discouraged, because the wife is for her husband, and that relationship is meant to be for life. God says that anyone who touches a married woman will not remain innocent.

As for apostasy and blasphemy, if that Muslim apologist is trying to say that these are crimes worthy of death in Christianity, then he is incorrect. I don't know what veiling is, but the only time I know of a woman wearing a veil in anything remotely Christian, is when she is exchanging vows in church right before she makes her vows.

And it is quite some thing to take a real crime like adultery, and then to say, "Oh well, see, Christians do evil." No, first it is not evil. God says it is just and righteous. Don't commit adultery because the penalty is death. And it is not like it is sentencing someone to death for stealing food. This is theft of your wife! Totally different.

They stand in judgment of God and His laws, thinking they are better law makers than the Creator Himself, and they question the holiness of His wisdom.

The interesting thing is, Islam goes a long way to make sure that women don't go near adultery to the point where, these women don't get to live a full life. Cover yourself up and no true interaction with the opposite sex. Christianity simply says: You have freedom, but don't commit adultery, because the penalty is death. Islam says: We are going to take away all your freedom to make sure you never come near adultery.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Adama » October 13th, 2017, 1:04 pm

Yohan wrote:
fschmidt wrote:As a realist, I don't care about how governments and religious organizations represent themselves. That is all propaganda of one kind or another, whether it is fake news or organizations twisting things for their agenda. The only thing I care about is direct experience, what I see with my own eyes. And in my direct experience, Anabaptists and Muslims are the only sane decent people left in this world.


Interesting to see Anabapists and Muslims mentioned in the same sentence for the first time.
Nowadays Anabapists are few, consisting of some small groups - somehow strange people but they do not harm anybody.
No idea what they could have in common with Islam.

About Muslims, they are at odds with each other but blaming the infidel for their own shortcoming.
Many Muslim countries are nothing but an economic mess, others are ruled by despotes swimming in money, others are nothing but a war-zone -
It's a sad world which does not offer any pleasure for anyone.


Because FSchmidt has fallen for the same delusions which Muslims have. That men and women need to be strictly separated from one another, probably in an effort to prevent adultery.

See, they don't trust themselves to do righteously. They have to enforce it. Instead of just keeping the commandments not to keep adultery, they have to enforce it upon society with legality. That is taking power and life away from the person and giving it away.

Because they are literally going to enforce some man-made rules upon people, they've brought confinement, restrictions and heavy burdens, which are forms of death when you really think about it. This is not freedom and peace. These are heavy burdens which they lay upon people in the name of submission. When they just add more rules than God has said, thinking they know more than God.

And I really do suspect that many people who seek to lay heavy burdens of ridiculousness on other people are murderers. They hate their fellow person, and want to see them confined into a narrow, deep pit. These rules bring people under bondage, a spiritual slavery because of man's insecurities.
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby MrPeabody » October 13th, 2017, 3:17 pm

Here is the Islamic version of Happier Abroad. It is a fascinating walk through the Muslim world by a traveler. Like was already stated, you have to just observe reality directly to cut through the bullshit propaganda.

"Series of documentary travelogues following in the footsteps of 14th Century Moroccan scholar Ibn Battuta, who covered 75,000 miles, 40 countries and three continents in a 30-year odyssey."

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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 13th, 2017, 4:29 pm

LOL, this video above is for the tourists in Egypt, for Cairo and Luxor, but how is the reality of daily life for poor Egypt people?

HappierAbroad?

Half of the population in Egypt are living in poverty, with millions in slums...

You really want to live there?





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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Jonny Law » October 13th, 2017, 4:44 pm

Yohan wrote:LOL, this video above is for the tourists in Egypt, for Cairo and Luxor, but how is the reality of daily life for poor Egypt people?

HappierAbroad?

Half of the population in Egypt are living in poverty, with millions in slums...

You really want to live there?







I am so happy we overthrew Hoani Mubarak of Egypt. It is so much better now that people do not have to concern themselves with money or food.
LONG LIVE THE ARAB SPRING!

Captain Obvious Says:
Things are not good for the supporters of Israel such as Mubarak and Weinstein.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhcH0c469F8
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Postby Yohan » October 13th, 2017, 7:08 pm

I can only say from all Muslim countries I have seen so far, my best impression was surprisingly about IRAN.

I have not seen so much, as I made it only up to Tabriz, and this is a long time ago. It was wintertime and it was pretty cold.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabriz

These people are not Arabs and not Turks and not Pakistani...

In Iran everybody shows their face, and despite it is an Islamic Republic and people are not really so rich there, the scenery is quite impressive and compared to other countries I never had a feeling it's dangerous for a foreigner.

Shia Islam is 'somewhat' a bit 'open'.

I also know some co-workers who made that trip to Iran, and some of them also had to stay for business up to 4 years in Tehran.

This movie is quite informative and quality is good.

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