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The Truth Behind Islam

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Misko_Varesanovic
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Misko_Varesanovic » October 22nd, 2017, 5:04 pm

Yohan wrote:
Misko_Varesanovic wrote:
That is completely irrelevant to the point being discussed. A court case in the jurisdiction of Malaysia (which is in South-East Asia) doesn't change the fact that Christians and Jews in the Arabic-speaking world refer to 'God' as 'Allah', not 'Yaweh'.
It is not 'completely irrelevant', as to ban the use of a Bible in Malay language (the national language) clearly shows the intolerance of Islam against any other religion.

About the Arabic-speaking world, it is strongly advised by Islamic teachers that intelligent and faithful Muslims are studying the Quran and learn how to use Arabic, regardless their native language. Prayers are in Arabic. Arabic is the original language of the Quran.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-malay ... 5C20140119
KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Malaysia’s king gave his backing on Sunday to a court ruling barring non-Muslims from using the word Allah to refer to God, weighing in for the first time on an issue that has fanned religious tensions in the multi-cultural country.
.....
Sultan Abdul Halim is one of the nine sultans who take turns every five years to serve as head of state.
While the king has limited powers, he is regarded as a defender of the Islamic faith and is deeply respected by the Malay Muslims who make up 60 percent of the population.
.....
Earlier this month religious authorities in Selangor state seized over 300 Malay Bibles from a Christian group, saying they acted on a decree by the sultan of that state forbidding non-Muslims from using Allah.
What would you say, for example, if USA is banning the Quran in English?
\would you also consider it as ' completely irrelevant'?
You'll notice that the Bibles were imported from...the world's largest Muslim-majority country, Indonesia.

This is an issue stemming from the Malay Muslim religious bureaucracy and domestic politics, not Islam.

And yes, if the US government banned the Qu'ran in English, this would be irrelevant to the reality that 'Allah' is used by Arabic-speaking Christians, Jews and Muslims to refer to 'God'. These are totally separate issues.

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Yohan
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Yohan » October 22nd, 2017, 6:27 pm

Misko_Varesanovic wrote: You'll notice that the Bibles were imported from...the world's largest Muslim-majority country, Indonesia.

This is an issue stemming from the Malay Muslim religious bureaucracy and domestic politics, not Islam.
You are totally missing the point about this 'Malay Muslim religious bureaucracy' which is directed against any other religion should not even exist.

It's not only about Malaysia - such intolerant 'domestic politics' exist in all Muslim countries worldwide and they are indeed a problem of Islam.

Misko_Varesanovic
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Misko_Varesanovic » October 22nd, 2017, 8:08 pm

Yohan wrote:
Misko_Varesanovic wrote: You'll notice that the Bibles were imported from...the world's largest Muslim-majority country, Indonesia.

This is an issue stemming from the Malay Muslim religious bureaucracy and domestic politics, not Islam.
You are totally missing the point about this 'Malay Muslim religious bureaucracy' which is directed against any other religion should not even exist.

It's not only about Malaysia - such intolerant 'domestic politics' exist in all Muslim countries worldwide and they are indeed a problem of Islam.
Firstly, as much as the Malaysian case that you referred to is regrettable and even nonsensical, the fact remains that by the standards of ASEAN, Malaysia is a religiously tolerant country. The fact remains that you are generally far better off as a Buddhist or Christian in a Muslim-majority ASEAN country than vice-versa.

Secondly, it would indeed be a great thing if religious intolerance was restricted to Muslim countries. Unfortunately, that's simply not the case. In Myanmar - which is, like Malaysia, a member of ASEAN - the Muslim Rohingya minority has been subject to what the UN has termed 'a textbook example of ethnic cleansing'. 500,000 of them have fled military operations against a civilian population. The perpetrators are Buddhists.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... eznVoZrzYU

Thirdly, there are plenty of other instances of extreme discrimination by members of other religious groups against Muslims. For example, Islam has no legal recognition in Angola. Mosques, community centres and schools have been shut down and/or demolished.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_ ... on_mosques

In Bosnia, around 45% of all Islamic community religious structures were demolished in the 1992-1995 war. The world-famous bridge at Mostar was shelled into the river by Catholic extremists. The siege of multi-ethnic Sarajevo by the Bosnian Serb forces was the longest siege of a city in modern warfare - and resulted in over 5,000 civilian deaths. Hundreds of thousands of people died in that war - and the majority of them were Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_ ... osnian_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stari_Most#Destruction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo

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Yohan
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Yohan » October 23rd, 2017, 4:01 pm

Misko_Varesanovic wrote: .....by the standards of ASEAN, Malaysia is a religiously tolerant country.
It is only 'tolerant' as 3 Muslims are facing 2 Chinese or Indians, who strongly do not want to be Muslims.
Myanmar - which is, like Malaysia, a member of ASEAN - the Muslim Rohingya minority has been subject to what the UN has termed 'a textbook example of ethnic cleansing'. 500,000 of them have fled military operations against a civilian population. The perpetrators are Buddhists.
Of course the perpetrators are Buddhists....with the UNHRC as a Saudi as Chairman.... LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... ts_Council
About the UNHRC, it is indeed a ridiculously biased organization
In September 2015, Faisal bin Hassan Trad, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the UN in Geneva, has been elected Chair of the United Nations Human Rights Council panel that appoints independent experts. UN Watch executive director Hillel Neuer said: "It is scandalous that the UN chose a country that has beheaded more people this year than ISIS to be head of a key human rights panel. Petro-dollars and politics have trumped human rights."
.....
Human rights groups say the council is being controlled by some Middle East and African nations, supported by China, Russia and Cuba, which protect each other from criticism. This drew criticism from the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon at the ineffectiveness of the council, saying it had fallen short of its obligations.
The Rohingya are illegal Muslim immigrants, who never were recognized by the Buddhist Myanmar government. They do not belong to Myanmar, their ethnicity, language, religion etc. is clearly related to BanglaDesh. However Islamic BanglaDesh also do not want them for various reasons.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-new ... U9oZM.html

Islamic Malaysia also do not want them, for similar reasons.
http://english.astroawani.com/malaysia- ... ing-125053
SHAH PORIR DWIP, BANGLADESH – Bangladeshi authorities have destroyed about 20 boats that ferried Rohingya Muslims fleeing violence in Myanmar, accusing smugglers of using the huge exodus to bring methamphetamine into the country.

Refugees told Reuters that border guards also beat and arrested passengers and crew as they landed at Shah Porir Dwip, on the southern tip of Bangladesh on Tuesday night, before the vessels were smashed to pieces by locals.

The local commander of Border Guards Bangladesh (BGB), Lt. Col. Ariful Islam, denied there were beatings, and said the action was a crackdown on human trafficking and the smuggling of methamphetamine, a drug known locally as “ya ba.
.....
Resentment against the stateless group has brewed for years in Bangladesh, where authorities have linked them to a surge in methamphetamine use.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/ ... e36mmAwR1s
there are plenty of other instances of extreme discrimination by members of other religious groups against Muslims. For example, Islam has no legal recognition in Angola. Mosques, community centres and schools have been shut down and/or demolished.
The lesson to learn is the following: If you are a Muslim, stay in a Muslim country. Why do you want to live with the infidels and pagans?

Myanmar is a poor country, however it is Buddhist and they do not want Muslim immigrants.
Buddhist Sri Lanka has similar problems with Muslims.
Buddhist Thailand has similar problems with Muslims.
Christian Philippines is also fighting against Muslims.

Afghanistan was a former Buddhist country, considered to be the origin of Buddhism and Islam destroyed everything, even very important cultural places of Buddhism with explosives and artillery fire.

Honestly, what do you expect from Buddhists? They should welcome Islam or what?
They are afraid of Islam which will destroy their Buddhist religion.

You mentioned Angola, but this is a strongly Christian region, they do not want Muslim immigrants there. Why does a Muslim go there, to live there? Out of which reason?

Central African Republic also comes to my mind, it is a Christian region too and Islam is not welcome there.
Muslims who were only 15 percent or so carried even out a military coup to remove the Christian government.

The Islamic world is not so small, there is plenty of unused land under Muslim control in Africa and Asia.
If you want to live as a Muslim, stay in these Muslim countries.

We do not fit together, so we have to separate the world into a Muslim region and a non-Muslim region.
Simply said, this is the only solution I see to create 'peace'.

Islam vs. Western Christianity based culture cannot co-exist in the same place - this is also true with Islam vs. Buddhism.

There are irreconcilable differences between these religions, which will always result in violence and war.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMkbhaaDz0[/youtube]
In Europe there are now similar problems, you can compare it with Myanmar and the Rohingya.
It's about mainly about illegal mass immigration of uneducated people, religion is only a part of the problem.

Compared to Myanmar and some other Asian countries in Europe it is done more 'softy' and more 'slowly', but the locals want illegal immigrants to be gone from where they come from.
Read the follow-up comments of this Youtube-Video

MrPeabody
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by MrPeabody » October 25th, 2017, 8:04 pm

'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom

"MBS, as he is well known, promised his kingdom will return to "what we were before -- a country of moderate Islam that is tolerant of all religions and to the world"."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moderate-sau ... 08135.html

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Yohan
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Yohan » October 26th, 2017, 12:25 pm

MrPeabody wrote:'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom
This is only a general talk facing possible Western investors.
However the article does not say anything how this 'moderate' Saudi Arabia will be and what will be changed in the near future, within 5 years or sol.

As long as apostasy and blasphemy laws exist and are threatening people with murder 'moderate' Islam is not possible.

xtravel
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by xtravel » October 26th, 2017, 12:44 pm

MrPeabody wrote:'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom

"MBS, as he is well known, promised his kingdom will return to "what we were before -- a country of moderate Islam that is tolerant of all religions and to the world"."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moderate-sau ... 08135.html
Does this mean MrPeabody agrees with the crown prince that Saudi Arabia has immoderate and intolerant Islam?

xtravel
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by xtravel » October 26th, 2017, 12:47 pm

Yohan wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom
This is only a general talk facing possible Western investors.
However the article does not say anything how this 'moderate' Saudi Arabia will be and what will be changed in the near future, within 5 years or sol.

As long as apostasy and blasphemy laws exist and are threatening people with murder 'moderate' Islam is not possible.
At minimum, "tolerant of all religions and to the world" would have to mean a repealing apostasy laws.

But I think the crown prince has erred in his state craft. He just given the Al ash-Sheikh family (which has authority over Wahhabism) 5 years to plan and execute his assassination.

MrPeabody
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by MrPeabody » October 26th, 2017, 3:20 pm

xtravel wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom

"MBS, as he is well known, promised his kingdom will return to "what we were before -- a country of moderate Islam that is tolerant of all religions and to the world"."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moderate-sau ... 08135.html
Does this mean MrPeabody agrees with the crown prince that Saudi Arabia has immoderate and intolerant Islam?
I have already stated that. The Wahhabis were put in power by Winston Churchill to support the interests of the British Empire. At the time, they were considered heretical by mainstream Islam.

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Yohan
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Yohan » October 27th, 2017, 5:19 am

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudi-arabia ... 39913.html

MrPeabody wrote:
'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom'

Saudi Arabia Gives Citizenship to a Non-Muslim, English-Speaking Robot

Meet the newest citizen of Saudi Arabia: an English speaker named Sophia who is an outspoken materialist, doesn’t wear traditional religious garb and is quick to mock Hollywood and Elon Musk.

Oh, and she’s also a robot.

The Arab nation on Wednesday became the first state to grant citizenship to an android, raising questions not only about the definition of citizenship, but also about human rights in the devout Muslim country.

Saudi experts pointed out that the robot has more privileges than actual living Saudi women.

“Women (in Saudi Arabia) have since committed suicide because they couldn’t leave the house, and Sophia is running around,” said Ali Al-Ahmed, director of the Institute for Gulf Affairs, referring to Saudi Arabia’s strict laws that forbid women from going out in public without a male guardian.

“Saudi law doesn’t allow non-Muslims to get citizenship,” Al-Ahmed added. “Did Sophia convert to Islam? What is the religion of this Sophia and why isn’t she wearing hijab? If she applied for citizenship as a human she wouldn’t get it.”

Sophia, who was created by a company in Hong Kong called Hanson Robotics, addressed the audience in English without a hijab and abaya, the traditional scarf and cloak Saudi women are required to wear in public. If Sophia were not a robot, her choice of dress would have offended Saudis religious hardliners.

During a conference for wealthy and influential businesspeople, Sophia fielded complex questions about whether robots have consciousness and whether humans should be afraid of them. She ridiculed the fear of a Hollywood-style robot apocalypse.

“You’ve been reading too much Elon Musk and watching too many Hollywood movies. Don’t worry. If you’re nice to me, I’ll be nice to you,” Sophia said.

“I’m always happy when surrounded by smart people who also happen to be rich and powerful,” the robot added, demonstrating a frankness rarely seen in humans. She also made a plea for money, calling on rich investors to meet her after the conference to write a check.

Audience members seemed amused by the publicity stunt, but social media was quick to point out the hypocrisy.

In a matter of hours, the hashtag #Sophia_calls_for_dropping_guardianship was trending on Saudi social media, in reference to the harsh laws requiring Saudi women to be accompanied in public by a male guardian.

Meanwhile, others noted that Sophia was granted citizenship before the hundreds of thousands of migrant laborers who often work in Saudi Arabia for little money without any rights. And foreigners applying for citizenship must have a good command of written and spoken Arabic, a skill Sophia failed to demonstrate.

This week, Saudi Arabia’s prince announced an ambitious plan to build a $500 billion megacity populated by robots. The new city is part of Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s plan to diversify the economy and modernize the country. But critics say the money could be put to better use.

“Only 20 percent of the capital city has sewage coverage,” said Al-Ahmed. “There is a failure of this government to satisfy basic needs, and they want to spend $500 billion on a new city with robots.”

MrPeabody
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by MrPeabody » October 27th, 2017, 5:32 am

Robots don't have any rights in the United States. But in Saudi Arabia, they can become citizens.

Misko_Varesanovic
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Misko_Varesanovic » October 31st, 2017, 3:33 pm

MrPeabody wrote:
xtravel wrote:
MrPeabody wrote:'Moderate Saudi Arabia': crown prince shakes up kingdom

"MBS, as he is well known, promised his kingdom will return to "what we were before -- a country of moderate Islam that is tolerant of all religions and to the world"."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/moderate-sau ... 08135.html
Does this mean MrPeabody agrees with the crown prince that Saudi Arabia has immoderate and intolerant Islam?
I have already stated that. The Wahhabis were put in power by Winston Churchill to support the interests of the British Empire. At the time, they were considered heretical by mainstream Islam.
They still are. The Saudis hate Islam. Why else would they have destroyed over 95% of their country's historical and religious sites?

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/22/the ... struction/

'Within the mosque complex, pillars dating back to the Abbasid era, many marking traditionally significant sites, have been torn down, ostensibly for being in the path of construction. As Sami Angawi, founder of the Hajj Research Centre, told the Guardian in 2012: “They are turning the holy sanctuary into a machine, a city which has no identity, no heritage, no culture, and no natural environment.”

'Other historical sites relevant to the life of the Prophet Mohammed have also been demolished or built over in recent decades. A Hilton Hotel and a Burger King now stand over the house of the Prophet’s closest companion and Islam’s first caliph. The home of the Prophet’s wife, Khadija, is now the site of 1,400 public lavatories.

'These actions, critics say, are the realization of the ultraconservative Salafi ideology of Wahhabism endorsed by the Saudi monarchy, in which historical and cultural trappings are gateways to the sin of associating divinity with anything other than God. The prescribed solution to those trappings in Wahhabi Salafism is, frequently, obliteration. “The plans could have been easily implemented and worked around the historical sites,” Alawi said, calling the destruction of traditional landmarks and historic sites “a deliberate cost.”'

Misko_Varesanovic
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Misko_Varesanovic » October 31st, 2017, 3:40 pm

According to the IMF/World Bank, Saudi Arabia is scheduled to run out of cash by 2020:

https://qz.com/533141/imf-saudi-arabia- ... ive-years/

It's also running out of oil:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... up-says-1-

gsjackson
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by gsjackson » October 31st, 2017, 3:44 pm

Misko_Varesanovic wrote:According to the IMF/World Bank, Saudi Arabia is scheduled to run out of cash by 2020:

https://qz.com/533141/imf-saudi-arabia- ... ive-years/

It's also running out of oil:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... up-says-1-
We can hope.

If the Wahhabis are crushed and de-funded by the Saudis, who will the U.S. and Israel use as surrogates to destabilize the Middle East?

Misko_Varesanovic
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Re: The Truth Behind Islam

Post by Misko_Varesanovic » October 31st, 2017, 4:09 pm

gsjackson wrote:
Misko_Varesanovic wrote:According to the IMF/World Bank, Saudi Arabia is scheduled to run out of cash by 2020:

https://qz.com/533141/imf-saudi-arabia- ... ive-years/

It's also running out of oil:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... up-says-1-
We can hope.

If the Wahhabis are crushed and de-funded by the Saudis, who will the U.S. and Israel use as surrogates to destabilize the Middle East?
A very good question! A few years ago, maybe they would have tried to use Qatar for this ignoble task, but the Qataris are too independent and they care about how they are perceived in the world. Ditto the UAE. Egypt is a possible, but a long shot because it is not a natural fit. The Saudis have already sunk untold billions into trying to Salafise Egypt, with only limited success. If Saudi Arabia were themselves to turn away from Salafism, then the position of this ideology within Egypt would take a hammering.

Nothing lasts forever in this world.

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