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Are these three Bible verses true?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Could these three verses from the Bible be true?

Yes, the verses listed are true.
2
40%
No, of course they are not true.
3
60%
 
Total votes : 5

Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Winston » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:53 pm

Adama, notice that your three verses are all taken from Gospel of John, as are most verses that Evangelists cite, not from the first three Gospels, known as the Synoptic Gospels. You know why? Because John is the crux of the modern Christian gospel. It came much later than the first three gospels. The first three gospels merely say that you can go to heaven if you love God and each other, a very simple message. Then the book of John came along later and said that you had to believe that Jesus died for your sins to get to heaven. Obviously, the simple message was not enough. It gave no power to the church. So it had to be upgraded, hence the fourth gospel of John was created. See how the gospel evolved to suit the needs of the elite and church?

The thing is, if you have to believe that Jesus died for you to be saved, then why didn't Matthew, Mark or Luke mention that? If that doctrine is the central thesis in Jesus' message, as the gospel of John says, then why didn't the other gospels mention it? Think about it. The reason is because it wasn't part of the original Christian teaching. It was added on later. Thus Christianity is as prone to human revision as any other belief system is. It's not eternal and never-changing, but subject to the whims of politics, revision and alteration.

For a good documentary series on how early Christianity evolved, see the PBS documentary series "From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians". In it, you will hear from top serious historians and scholars (many of whom were in the Jesus Seminar) about this. The documentary is on YouTube and is very educational.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=from+jesus+to+christ

Adama, do you even know what the Q Gospel is? If not, then you are uneducated about historical research of early Christianity and need to get educated. So see the PBS documentary.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Adama » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:16 pm

The sad thing is that believing in Jesus is very easy, yet most people absolutely refuse to even do that. They'll figure out any twist and turn in order to deny Jesus His glory. They do that to their own destruction. I am saved and I will be in heaven. The ones who do not believe will absolutely without a doubt suffer torment for eternity. Keep questioning God's Word. Also keep preaching that the Word of God is false.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Ghost » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:29 pm

I would say that they are true, as is the Bible and probably other religious texts. The problem is understanding what they really mean and discerning what has been corrupted by men. I recently finished Mark, and was surprised at the ending, which seemed tacked on and added later for political reasons. (After his ministry of teaching, healing the sick, and trying to make people understand the Kingdom of God, he gets crucified and in the very end he rises from the dead physically, comes back for a very short time and basically says, "whoever believes is saved, whoever doesn't is condemned." And then leaves. It was very different from the rest of the book.)

There are other gospels that were hidden, as well as many things that were hidden in plain sight. (For example, there are allusions to reincarnation in the gospels that did make it into the Bible. And somehow people just gloss over it as if they can't even see it.)

I'm trying to understand, but that is difficult at best. My current level of understanding is that Jesus was teaching people how the Kingdom of Heaven works. In essence, how the Universe works. It wasn't a "believe or burn" teaching. Much of what he says is essentially what we understand as "karma." For example, at least in Matthew and Mark (haven't gone past that yet) whenever he talks about Heaven, he doesn't describe it like a place, but how it works. This is a huge piece of evidence as to what He's really saying.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Adama » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:33 pm

Winston wrote:Adama, notice that your three verses are all taken from Gospel of John, as are most verses that Evangelists cite, not from the first three Gospels, known as the Synoptic Gospels. You know why? Because John is the crux of the modern Christian gospel. It came much later than the first three gospels. The first three gospels merely say that you can go to heaven if you love God and each other, a very simple message. Then the book of John came along later and said that you had to believe that Jesus died for your sins to get to heaven. Obviously, the simple message was not enough. It gave no power to the church. So it had to be upgraded, hence the fourth gospel of John was created. See how the gospel evolved to suit the needs of the elite and church?

The thing is, if you have to believe that Jesus died for you to be saved, then why didn't Matthew, Mark or Luke mention that? If that doctrine is the central thesis in Jesus' message, as the gospel of John says, then why didn't the other gospels mention it? Think about it. The reason is because it wasn't part of the original Christian teaching. It was added on later. Thus Christianity is as prone to human revision as any other belief system is. It's not eternal and never-changing, but subject to the whims of politics, revision and alteration.

For a good documentary series on how early Christianity evolved, see the PBS documentary series "From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians". In it, you will hear from top serious historians and scholars (many of whom were in the Jesus Seminar) about this. The documentary is on YouTube and is very educational.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=from+jesus+to+christ

Adama, do you even know what the Q Gospel is? If not, then you are uneducated about historical research of early Christianity and need to get educated. So see the PBS documentary.


You can believe what you want. The problem you have is that you prefer the wisdom of mankind over the wisdom of God. The KJV has nothing to do with "The Church." In fact, the Catholics hate the King James and they use their own Bible version which is false. There is the church of God which is composed of believers. Then there is the church of Satan, which is headed by the Pope and the rest of them who do things in opposition to the Bible. The Church is an institution of men. It is not of God. All you have to do is look at the symbolism of the Catholic church and you'll see that it is a Satanic cult, from the bowing and kissing of statues, to the praise and worship of beings other than God (namely Mary and Saints, especially saints which weren't even believers but merely Catholics), upside down crosses, gold everywhere, calling men "Father" when Jesus said never to do that, adding sacraments to salvation which damns souls to hell (because it is by faith alone).

The Catholic church is a man made instituion. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible, neither is it Christian. Just like the Jews and their false Judaism, the Catholic, universal church is also completely and intentionally misguided.

You'll never understand that though. At least not until the Great White Throne which is over 1000 years away.
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Re: Are these three verses from the Bible true?

Postby Adama » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:39 pm

Winston wrote:
cdnFA wrote:I was told to come forth and receive eternal life, but I came in fifth and all I got was a toaster.

Oh and
"I am surprised the Jews do not believe in Jesus, because He was spoken about in the Old Testament. Fschmidt, do you believe these verses from the Old Testament?

Psalm 2:12 KJV
[12]Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Daniel 3:25 KJV
[25]He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
[9]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Genesis 15:6 KJV
[6] And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

None of those phrases actually mention Jesus or the NT. Only a cultist would automatically assume it does. None of those passages are in anyway inconsistent with someone who is still waiting for a messiah. That you would use these passages as a reason to be surprised that the Jews don't believe in that Jesus fellow is pretty weak thinking.


For once cdnfa is right. The Old Testament predicted a warrior king type of messiah who will be a powerful political ruler of Israel and bring Israel to the status of world power. That's what the Jews were waiting for, and still are I guess. Their messiah was supposed to be a political one, not a spiritual one. Ask any Judaism scholar. Jesus did not fit their idea of a messiah. The Jewish messiah was not supposed to die on a cross.

Plus many of the verses attributed to Jesus in the OT had nothing to do with a messiah. For example, the author of Matthew takes verses from Psalms out of context and claims they refer to a messiah, when they are just Kind David singing praises to the Lord. Yet the Bible concordance links the prophecies claimed in Matthew to verses that were totally taken out of context and don't refer to any messiah at all. Even a child can see this. It's an insult to the intelligence. The NT writers were desperate to find prophecies of Jesus fulfilled in the OT to validate their new Gospel. When they couldn't, they got desperate and starting taking random verses out of context. This is plain and clear to see. All you have to do is flip the pages footnoted in the book of Matthew. It's all in plain sight.


CnDa is a male feminist who hates me because I said men should be in charge and that women should be in subjection to their husbands. I am also against prostitution and some other things which he is for. I have never attacked him personally. Also, you can see that he truly hates God. That's too bad for him.

Did they use the name of Jesus in the OT? No, but it is a prediction. Of course those people with hardened and darkened hearts will not see the divinity of God until they reach hell, for many of them.


The point is that Abraham believed God, and God therefore declared him worthy of entry into heaven. Pretty easy to go to heaven. Those who hate God can't get into heaven though, because they refuse to believe in Him. They'd rather believe literally anything else, like astrologers, feminists, astrophysicists, ancient philosophers as long as they weren't godly, false teachings of the media which are against Christ, false gospels, and literally anything else. Too bad for them that just because they hate God, that doesn't eliminate His existence. They can hate God all they want to. In the end, they will still answer to Him. Only this time they will not be able to deny Him any glory. Every knee shall bow before the Lord.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby cdnFA » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:48 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

Two attempts to link Jesus with King David. Both differ completely.
One would figure that a book written by those who were guided by god would be a bit better with the fact checking.
Double plus so when considering that it is suppose to be the difference between heaven and hell.

Further down the article is a mention of a lot of the mental gymnastics that various old school people tried to do to solve the contradiction and there are several possible explanations. One would figure the word of god would be a bit more clear again considering what is at stake.

That plus the whole horde of other problems with the bible make me shake my head at the sanity of any literalism people. I remember 20 years ago on the net I pointed out to someone who said everything in the bible is true the above issue, even looked it up in actual bibles to make sure. He refused to look it up in his own bible. The bible is always right therefore I must be wrong. I am not a huge fan of the metaphor people who treat the bible as one big ink blot test either but that is another issue.

I just hope Adama doesn't send a bear to kill me. Maybe I am wrong, maybe it is only OK to send bears to maul 42 children to death not adults. Much like how in Christianity sex is only OK between a man and his wife or a priest and his altar boy.

For more mental gymnastics trying to justify a complete dick more. I mean even if their twit of the story is accurate, one would figure that a world creator could figure out a better way to resolve the issue.
https://carm.org/why-did-god-kill-42-lads-merely-saying-elisha-was-bald

More dick moves. The bible as moral authority? Maybe if you are Paul Bernardo.

The book of Job. If any human did that to another person or even a dog just to win a bet, they would be considered extremely evil.
Really, check out this response from god.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038-41
TLDR version. Don't question me bitch, I am better than you, so suck it.
Sounds like someone unhinged with a personality disorder. Or one of those kids who keep insisting that Metallica rules and AC/DC sucks and if you don't agree you must be gay. Well I thought we had free will and brains and were meant to use them. Of course the story is pure evil, the writers of the story just cover it up with the don't think/don't question.
I like this version of the story
Oh, Job. Other than a shit-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can f**k with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipporah_at_the_inn
That god fellow is a bit on the blood thirsty side... or a nasty drunk.

Mass murder. Did everyone really deserve to die during the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah? Only a cultist or a raging bigot could think that. I suppose that explains the popularity of the bible in HA with the black and white attitudes around here. Some Moslems live down the road, I think I will take their baby and stop it with my boot until it's dead, it is the godly thing to do.

Speaking of hurting innocents. The plagues of Egypt. The US gets crapped on when their very expensive smart bombs miss a target or otherwise engage in collateral damage. Some people still bitch about the WWII bombing campaigns even though no better options were available. The vast vast majority of Egypt's population had no say in running the country, why punish them. Seems god had absolutely no creativity or he is again a blood thirsty putz. You figure you can create the universe, you should be able force policy change on the Egyptian government and get your point across without hurting innocents.
First born animals. God kills kittens. Apparently. That and his anti bacon stance should be enough to turn anyone away from any of the OT inspired religions.

Toss in the other genocidal acts in the bible. Living space, promised land. Chosen people, Master race. Potato, Potatoe. [Not that a bunch of imaginary tales from thousands of years ago warrant the holocaust but it seems that god fellow is about as evil as Hitler and Pol Pot, but not quite as bad as Justin Beiber. Gotta give him props on that one.

Hey kill your child. Psych. I was just testing you. Oh My Me, I can't believe you were actually going to kill your own kid. You gangster yo.

Don't want to knock up your widowed sister in law. I think killing the guy is perfectly reasonable, NOT!. Poor Onan. The story is much worse once you move past the potential and quite frankly unjustified anti fap interpretations of the story.

Judges 14:1-19
If someone cheats you to win a bet. It seems to be OK to kill them.


Either as a source of truth or moral instruction, anyone who follows the bible either isn't reading it or is engaged in purposeful ignorance.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby cdnFA » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:56 am

Adama wrote:The sad thing is that believing in Jesus is very easy, yet most people absolutely refuse to even do that. They'll figure out any twist and turn in order to deny Jesus His glory. They do that to their own destruction. I am saved and I will be in heaven. The ones who do not believe will absolutely without a doubt suffer torment for eternity. Keep questioning God's Word. Also keep preaching that the Word of God is false.


How is it easy to believe a character based on a book full on contradictions and whose authority is based on an deity which based on the OT is a force of true evil.
One doesn't need to twist or turn anything. It's in the freaken bible clear as day.

Also the idea that you think people deserve eternal torment for a theological difference of opinion makes you an evil and very bad person.
I don't by into a deeply flawed book describing an psychotic deity so eternal torment is a reasonable response for that. No wonder you come across rather rapeish at times.

Your religion based on your own words is pretty much at the level of a guy who throws a bottle of acid into a girls face because she won't do out with him.

Also if believing in Jesus was so easy, why do most people refuse to do that. Maybe just maybe it isn't as obvious as you think it is.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Winston » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:03 am

Ghost wrote:I would say that they are true, as is the Bible and probably other religious texts. The problem is understanding what they really mean and discerning what has been corrupted by men. I recently finished Mark, and was surprised at the ending, which seemed tacked on and added later for political reasons. (After his ministry of teaching, healing the sick, and trying to make people understand the Kingdom of God, he gets crucified and in the very end he rises from the dead physically, comes back for a very short time and basically says, "whoever believes is saved, whoever doesn't is condemned." And then leaves. It was very different from the rest of the book.)

There are other gospels that were hidden, as well as many things that were hidden in plain sight. (For example, there are allusions to reincarnation in the gospels that did make it into the Bible. And somehow people just gloss over it as if they can't even see it.)

I'm trying to understand, but that is difficult at best. My current level of understanding is that Jesus was teaching people how the Kingdom of Heaven works. In essence, how the Universe works. It wasn't a "believe or burn" teaching. Much of what he says is essentially what we understand as "karma." For example, at least in Matthew and Mark (haven't gone past that yet) whenever he talks about Heaven, he doesn't describe it like a place, but how it works. This is a huge piece of evidence as to what He's really saying.


Yeah that last part of Mark is likely to be an interpolation. The earliest Bible manuscripts of Mark do not have that verse that says you have to believe and be baptized to be saved. It was added in later in order to try to match Mark's teachings with that of the Gospel of John.

The truth is, Matthew, Mark and Luke teach that to get to heaven, you gotta be a good person and love God and others. Jesus even told that to someone. See the verses below.

The first three Gospels Matthew, Mark and Luke are termed the Synoptic Gospels and are regarded by Biblical scholars, both Christian and secular, to be older than John. Mark is regarded as the oldest, followed by Matthew and Luke, then by John. Now the central theology doctrine of Christianity today teaches a salvation by faith through grace, by believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose from the grave. This doctrine is central and fundamental to the Christian Gospel. However, this form of salvation is NOT taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke, which are the oldest of the Gospels! The basis for the Christian Gospel of salvation by faith and the atonement comes from the book of John, which is the newest of the Gospels! Fascinating isn't it?

In the Gospel of Matthew, there is NOT ONE WORD about having to believe on Jesus in order to go to heaven. In fact, there is not one word about having to "believe" in anything at all to get to heaven! There is no mention of the atonement or of salvation by faith. In fact, Jesus says that all you have to do for God to forgive your sins is this:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" (Matthew 6:14)

Later in Matthew, when someone asked Jesus directly what he had to do to be saved and have eternal life, Matthew clearly records a salvation by works:

Matt. 19:16-21: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Jesus in this account never said here that you have to believe that he died on the cross for your sins for God to forgive you! In the same Gospel of Matthew, Jesus also preached the famous beatitudes which emphasize that those with good hearts, attitudes and character will inherit the kingdom of God, which is another way of saying that they will go to heaven!

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

That's it! He didn't say that you had to believe that Jesus died for your sins in order for you to be forgiven. The verses that say that are in the book of John, which came about 50 years after Matthew.

In contrast, in the Gospel of John, which came much later, we have verses that require you to "believe" in Jesus to be saved, such as:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

John 11:25 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

That's why all 3 of Adama's verses come from John. No surprise there.

Of course, some Christians will respond by saying that you have to add up all the Gospels together to get the complete story. However, the key point here is that if Jesus actually said that you had to believe in him in order to be saved, then Matthew, Mark and Luke would have at least mentioned something about that somewhere! If it was central to Jesus' teachings that you need salvation by faith, then why didn't they mention it at all in the first three Gospels? The logical reason is that they never heard of nor supported that idea, because it didn’t evolve until later when the early Christians decided to add that doctrine, as in the Gospel of John.

Another fact that indicates this as well is that according to Mark, Christ was a man. But according to Matthew and Luke, he was a demigod, while John insists that he was God himself. That also shows an evolution of the concept of Jesus from a man gradually to a deity status. This is common with religious founders throughout history, because no matter what they claim themselves, their followers eventually try to deify them and make them into a God to worship.

Conclusion

There you have it, THREE Gospels of good works being enough to satisfy God, versus ONE Gospel of faith and atonement. Three against one! Again the central doctrine of the Evangelical Christian Gospel loses by the numbers. Case closed.

This is in fact good news for people, because it means that Jesus probably never preached that you had to believe that he died for you to be saved, which means that billions of people now and throughout history who didn’t convert to the Christian Gospel won’t spend eternity in hell after all, like Evangelicals warn. Therefore, for those worried about either themselves or their unsaved loved ones, this takes a huge burden off their shoulder. Now they can rejoice, celebrate, and yell “Hallelujah!”
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Winston » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:13 am

Robert Ingersoll, a critic of Christianity in the 1800's, wrote this mock dialogue called "The Talmagian Catechism" that reveals the absurdities and contradictions in the Bible. Here is the excerpt from it that addresses the discrepancies about Salvation in Matthew, Mark and Luke vs. John. The full version can be found at the link below. The fundamentalist Answerer in it sounds a lot like Adama. lol

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/talmagian_catechism.html

QUESTION. How is it that Matthew says nothing about "salvation
by faith," but simply says that God will be merciful to the
merciful, that he will forgive the forgiving, and says not one word
about the necessity of believing anything?

ANSWER. But you will remember that Mark says, in the last
chapter of his gospel, that "whoso believeth not shall be damned."

QUESTION. Do you admit that Matthew says nothing on the
subject?

ANSWER. yes, I suppose I must.

QUESTION. Is not that passage in Mark generally admitted to be
an interpolation?

ANSWER. Some biblical scholars say that it is.

QUESTION. Is that portion of the last chapter of Mark found in
the Syriac version of the Bible?

ANSWER. It is not.

QUESTION. If it was necessary to believe on Jesus Christ, in
order to be saved, how is it that Matthew failed to say so?

ANSWER. "There are more copies of the Bible printed to-day,
than of any other book in the world, and it is printed in more
languages than any other book."

QUESTION. Do you consider it necessary to be "regenerated" --
to be "born again" -- in order to be saved?

ANSWER. Certainly.

QUESTION. Did Matthew say anything on the subject of
"regeneration"?

ANSWER. No.

QUESTION. Did Mark?

ANSWER. No.

QUESTION. Did Luke?

ANSWER. No.

QUESTION. Is Saint John the only one who speaks of the
necessity of being "born again"?

ANSWER. He is.

QUESTION. Do you think that Matthew, Mark and Luke knew
anything about the necessity of "regeneration"?

ANSWER. Of course they did.

QUESTION. Why did they fail to speak of it?

ANSWER. There is no civilization without the Bible. The moment
you throw away the sacred Scriptures, you are all at sea -- you are
without an anchor and without a compass.

QUESTION. You will remember that, according to Mark, Christ
said to his disciples: "Go ye into all the world. and preach the
gospel to every creature." Did he refer to the gospel set forth by
Mark?

ANSWER. Of course he did.

QUESTION. Well, in the gospel set forth by Mark, there is not
a word about "regeneration," and no word about the necessity of
believing anything -- except in an interpolated passage. Would it
not seem from this, that "regeneration" and a "belief in the Lord
Jesus Christ," are no part of the gospel?

ANSWER. Nothing can exceed in horror the last moments of the
infidel; nothing can he more terrible than the death of the
doubter. When the glories of this world fade from the vision; when
ambition becomes an empty name; when wealth turns to dust in the
palsied hand of death, of what use is philosophy then? Who cares
then for the pride of intellect? In that dread moment, man needs
something to rely on, whether it is true or not.

QUESTION. Would it not have been more convincing if Christ,
after his resurrection, had shown himself to his enemies as well as
to his friends? Would it not have greatly strengthened the evidence
in the case, if he had visited Pilate; had presented himself before
Caiaphas, the high priest; if he had again entered the temple, and
again walked the streets of Jerusalem?

ANSWER. If the evidence had been complete and overwhelming,
there would have been no praiseworthiness in belief; even publicans
and sinners would have believed, if the evidence had been
sufficient. The amount of evidence required is the test of the true
Christian spirit.

QUESTION. Would it not also have been better had the ascension
taken place in the presence of unbelieving thousands; it seems such
a pity to have wasted such a demonstration upon those already
convinced?

ANSWER. These questions are the natural fruit of the carnal
mind, and can be accounted for only by the doctrine of total
depravity. Nothing has given the church more trouble than just such
questions. Unholy curiosity, a disposition to pry into the divine
mysteries, a desire to know, to investigate, to explain -- in
short, to understand, are all evidences of a reprobate mind.
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Re: Are these three verses from the Bible true?

Postby cdnFA » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:25 am

Adama wrote:
CnDa is a male feminist who hates me because I said men should be in charge and that women should be in subjection to their husbands. I am also against prostitution and some other things which he is for. I have never attacked him personally. Also, you can see that he truly hates God. That's too bad for him.

Did they use the name of Jesus in the OT? No, but it is a prediction. Of course those people with hardened and darkened hearts will not see the divinity of God until they reach hell, for many of them.


The point is that Abraham believed God, and God therefore declared him worthy of entry into heaven. Pretty easy to go to heaven. Those who hate God can't get into heaven though, because they refuse to believe in Him. They'd rather believe literally anything else, like astrologers, feminists, astrophysicists, ancient philosophers as long as they weren't godly, false teachings of the media which are against Christ, false gospels, and literally anything else. Too bad for them that just because they hate God, that doesn't eliminate His existence. They can hate God all they want to. In the end, they will still answer to Him. Only this time they will not be able to deny Him any glory. Every knee shall bow before the Lord.


1: If by feminist I think women are human beings. Sure. Not an insult. If by feminist you think I distort reality like claiming a wage gap to extend female privilege as in first world feminists, no. You are completely off base there.

2: I don't hate you. I don't respect you, I think you are on the dumb side and you are creepy as hell but I don't hate you. I've had friends in the past who thought I was going to hell for a theological dispute and couldn't figure out why that was messed up before. On an aside for Winston and Eric, I also have a friend currently who thinks your way.
Really, hate you? I don't even know you. You sound like a butt hurt 10 year old girl who didn't get enough likes on your facebook posting.
2a: Does this mean you actually hate me? Laugh.
2b: In theory you have personally attacked me. You think I deserve eternal torment because I hold a different position. I have never suggested you should be hurt, killed or sent to prison for your views but if I had a daughter, like most people I would want you to stay as far away as possible.
2c: I don't hate god, well no more than I can hate any other fictional character. "God" just isn't very important to me. If the bible is true either literally or figuratively than any moral person must hate that god.
2d: I really wish you would read that bible of yours with a sceptical open mind. I do so with various academic things I agree with or am inclined to agree with. The reason I never became a hard core Libertarian or believed fully in that CRON thing. The bible is much more disturbing than you let on, if you didn't gloss over everything with "A wizard did it"

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVgVB3qsySQ[/youtube]

3: None of your quotes in any way even implies Jesus in any meaningful way. To suggest that they should lead Jews to believe that Jesus was the actual Messiah vs all the other wannabes out there is ludicrous. It suggests that when you read the bible your mind interprets it the way you think it should be and not the actual words.
There will be a Messiah. Look there is a Messiah. The first phrase by itself does not suggest that the subject of the second sentence is the same person as the first sentence is referring to. Jesus as a false messiah is fully consistent with the OT references you also made. Using those quotes to suggest that the first person who claims to be the messiah actually is makes about as much sense as strange women lying in ponds distributing swords as a basis for a system of government.

4: The point is, in that particular post to FS is that your comments are not logical. You can try again with something else but as it stands it doesn't fly.

5: Again with the black and white thinking. Women are either slaves or masters. Everyone either thinks jews are evil or they are 100% zionist. Either you love god or you hate them [I mean really do you hate fictional characters or for that matter anyone you haven't met... other than Justin Beiber of course]. There is just no middle ground with you and in all three cases your perceptions have no actual relation with reality. You need to get out more.
Atheists don't hate god. We don't even hate religious people. We will mock them, much like you might mock someone for wearing an ugly yellow and rust coloured sweater but that isn't hate. We might not respect their religious views [respect is earned] and might wonder about how far their deficiencies in thinking extend to other areas but again not with the hate. Again, seriously, you need to get out more.
I am pretty sure that astrologers, feminists, astrophysicists, ancient philosophers don't hate god either. I have one friend who is deep in with that Jebus fellow and also believes in astrology. I doubt she is the only one... well aside from ancient philosophers but they were pre Jebus and probably paid no thought to what the Jews were doing.
Hell most "Christians don't really pay much thought to god, why would expect no believers or those you engage in different paths to be much different. Really, god isn't really much of a factor in my life one way or the other. He just isn't important... again fictional character.

Even if non believers did hate god, is hellfire really an adult response to that. If someone hates you do you lock them in your basement and torture them.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Winston » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:42 am

cdnfa,
The official definition of a feminist is someone who believes in equal rights for women in all aspects of society. Are you a feminist by that definition? Do you believe that men and women are equal in every way?

Whether atheists hate God or not, they certainly hate religion, that's for sure. They even spread lies and claim that religion is responsible for all wars, etc. You can hear it in their tone when they talk about religion that they hate it and have a chip on their shoulder against it and believe it is unnecessary and does more harm than good.

They are also way too arrogant on things they know nothing about, such as completely denying the existence of the supernatural or spirit world. See the thread "The Problem with Atheists", it explains why atheism is not a logical position and why it makes too many false assumptions:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=30590
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby fschmidt » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:51 am

Only 3 votes? There are more posters in this thread.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Adama » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:47 am

John is the book that was written to tell us exactly how to get to heaven. The other three gospel stories are not about that topic so much. Therefore it is no surprise those verses come from the Book of John. In fact, the book of John explicitly states the purpose of the book is that people would believe and be saved. Yes you can believe and be baptized and go to heaven, because you can believe and do anything else and go to heaven. It is by believing alone. So if you believe and stand on your head, or believe and go for a run, and you'll be saved, as long as you realize the standing on your head part or the running isn't about salvation, just as being baptized has nothing to do with salvation (as the multitude of other scripture proves). It is by faith alone. Paul verifies John. Peter verifies Paul.

Now if you guys just believe that the Bible is corrupt beyond redemption, then you're probably just lost souls unfortunately. If you can't believe that text, then you'll probably never know Christ's truth.

You see people let all sorts of things get in the way of their belief. Many people choose to hate Paul. Let me tell you, if you don't believe Paul's words, you will not believe Christ or any other prophet's words. If you don't believe Paul, you also don't believe Peter, and that means you don't believe John, and if you don't believe John's words, how could you ever understand or believe Christ's words? The King James was translated from the Textus Receptus, which was not tampered with. The Vaticanus and other texts were tampered with, but mostly to pervert that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone without works.

You see Christianity is the only religion which is about trusting God (Jesus) for salvation. Every other religion emphasizes works to get into heaven. That is the difference. The true God wants you to put all your faith in Him. Satan wants you to put your faith in yourself and your own works to get to heaven, and each time you'll fall short, because only God is righteous enough to have lived a completely sinless life. Karma is work. Karma is trusting in yourself.

Does karma exist? Yes, but it is from God. It is called reaping and sowing. However, it is a different concept from salvation. Keep in mind that the Satan's creed from their leader Anton Lavey is "I am my own redeemer." That means they believe they can save themselves, which is the same belief as every false religion, trusting themselves rather than Christ for eternal life. The sad part is, it is easier to believe God than it is to run away from Him (and there is no escaping Him, just ask Jonas).

Also, just because someone is blessed, it doesn't mean this is in reference to salvation. The saved have all of those blessings. I doubt Jesus is talking about blessing all those people who refuse to believe in Him. Why would such people be granted blessings when they deny Him His glory?
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Adama » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:55 am

Jesus in this account never said here that you have to believe that he died on the cross for your sins for God to forgive you! In the same Gospel of Matthew, Jesus also preached the famous beatitudes which emphasize that those with good hearts, attitudes and character will inherit the kingdom of God, which is another way of saying that they will go to heaven!



Those people He is blessing already believe in Him, that's why. Is He really going to bless a bunch of people who refuse to believe in Him? The saved are the meek, they are the poor in spirit, they are all the rest of those things. That is why they are blessed, because they are saved and believe in Him. Blessed are all they that trust in Him. Kiss the Son. Remember the verse from Psalms, which I posted above. Kiss the Son, lest ye perish from the way when His wrath is kindled but a little. BLESSED ARE ALL THEY THAT TRUST IN HIM!

Who is Jesus giving blessings? To the people who trust in Him. If you'd just believe the Bible, the mystery would unravel itself before your eyes.

Also, those verses are not about forgiveness.
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Re: Are these three Bible verses true?

Postby Adama » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:59 am

I fear for you men here.

The Book of John tells you why the book was written here:

John 20:31 KJV
[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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