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Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Postby Ghost » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:17 pm

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Last edited by Ghost on Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:52 pm

Ghost wrote:
If belief is the only requirement for salvation, why did Jesus preach any moral teachings (such as follow the Commandments, forgive others so that God can forgive you, etc.)?

Did all pre-Christian people get condemned to hell because they had the misfortune of being born before Christ died on the cross?

Are believers allowed to commit any evil acts that they wish, since they are saved by belief alone?

We could delve into tons of other questions and offshoot questions, but this is a good place to start.



1. If belief is the only requirement for salvation, why did Jesus preach any moral teachings (such as follow the Commandments, forgive others so that God can forgive you, etc.)?

Although it is by faith alone, God still wants us to be holy. God is Holy and pure. Remember the whole reasoning behind hell is because God hates sin. He wants us to live holy because He is Holy. He hates sin. That's why sinners (unbelievers) go to hell. (Once a person believes, God doesn't hold sins accountable to their souls.)

So being saved by faith isn't a pass to sin. He still expects us to keep His commandments. Jesus said that if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. If you break His commandments, that also means you hate Him.

[love me keep my commandments]
John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Whether or not we sin we are still saved, because Christ paid for our sins. He promised He wouldn't send us to hell. He also promises chastisements in this life for when we sin.

Hebrews 12:8
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


[step mother]

1 Corinthians 5 KJV
[1]It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[5 ]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Note that the earthly body is being destroyed, probably with diseases and ailments, so that the spirit can go to heaven.

[satan not in hell]
God allows Satan to punish the believers on this earth. Satan will not be cast into hell into the time of the Book of Revelation.



2. Did all pre-Christian people get condemned to hell because they had the misfortune of being born before Christ died on the cross?

No, because even back in the OT, it was all about faith or belief in the Lord. That simply meant they believed the Lord and they put their trust in Him. Believing the Lord means believing the scriptures.

[abraham believed God]

Genesis 15:6 KJV**
[6] And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Abraham trusted in God.

God destroys those who dont believe:
Psalms 78:22 KJV**
[22]Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:


Jude 1:5 KJV
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

This is in reference to the OT. He says God destroyed those who believed not. It doesnt say He destroyed those who didnt do the works or who did bad works.
[trusted not in His salvation]


3. Are believers allowed to commit any evil acts that they wish, since they are saved by belief alone?

Yes and no. God promises to deliver us from temptation. So God will rescue His children from some of those sins.

2 Peter 2:9
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


Also, believers and murderers are two different subsets of people. That is, the saved are incapable of murder.
[1john315]
1 John 3:15
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


And lastly, if a person keeps committing sin, God will just take his life suddenly.

[suddenly reproved]
Proverbs 29
29 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:06 am

Ghost wrote:I'm still trying to understand Adama's belief system. I've never understood belief-based religions. With Christianity this is troublesome because so much of what the Bible teaches is told through metaphors, allegories, and parables. We all know that Judaism emphasized morality while Christianity emphasized belief. (Although Jesus himself really extended and simplified Old Testament principles, and explained how they work.) Belief in Christianity got emphasized later on by interpolations (additions to texts later on) and by later Christian writers. A morality-based or action-based religion makes much more sense to me because it's logical and tangible, whereas as we see with modern Churchianity, beliefs are all over the place, having spread into thousands of denominations. (This way of living and thinking - that beliefs but not actions and chocies matter - has also allowed society to go to shit, but that's another thread.) I'm trying to understand Adama's beliefs in particular, hence I have some questions, such as:



To be honest, as I've been trying to say all along, since we know Satan is the god of this world and that he deceives the whole world AND that his ministers can appear as angels of light, why then is it a surprise that most religions are false? They are false because they don't trust in the Lord. Christianity is the only religion which emphasizes THE LORD. Every other religion is about works, which is how you know that it is false. You can't earn your way to salvation because no one is absolutely perfect. Only God is perfect, which is why the only way to heaven is to trust in Him.

All this other stuff that you've heard are deceptions of Satan to get you to doubt God's Word so that you cannot get saved and therefore go to hell to suffer with him for eternity. This really is a great battle between good and evil; God and Satan. Satan has immense power on this earth to deceive. That's why I don't believe anything that comes from the world, Ghost.

Put your faith on the Word and stop believing what some scholars said, or what some council wrote. They weren't saved. There have been false prophets since the time of Peter and Paul.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:10 am

Adama wrote:Although it is by faith alone, God still wants us to be holy.


So in other words, what a believer does after being saved doesn't matter? If you go to your neighbor's home, sleep with his wife, murder him when he returns home, and afterward steal his possessions, and never have a sincere repentance but still believe, are you still saved? I understand you'd think God wants you to still act morally, but you get a free pass when you don't. No learning or sincere change of heart required. Correct?

No, because even back in the OT, it was all about faith or belief in the Lord. That simply meant they believed the Lord and they put their trust in Him. Believing the Lord means believing the scriptures.


What about people who were born into times and places where the Abrahamic God was never heard of?

Yes and no.


All that means is "yes," then.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:18 am

Believe me, if you went to Africa or India today, you will find that they've all heard of Jesus. There are missionaries going out to every place. And just has God is sending out missionaries to far flung places on the earth today, He was also doing so throughout history. He wants the world to be saved. Remember John 3 For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him may have everlasting life. Anyone who has heard that can go to heaven. It is up to them whether they want to accept the gift of God or whether they want to reject the Holy Ghost and the gift of eternal life.

The Buddhists, the Hindus, the Islamics are billions of people who know about Jesus.
They just don't want to believe that God can have a son, or whatever other lie they choose to believe rather than accepting the gospel. Same as thousands of years ago. They heard. They just rejected it, which is partially how they became Buddhists, Hindus and Islamics.

Yup. Exactly. But others would rather rely upon fiction, such as "archaeological evidence" or the lies of " his story" (which even Napoleon admitted are nothing but lies that the writers each agree on) in order for them to believe that God also loved the heathen. As if God didn't send His son to save the whole world? Anyone of faith knows that Jesus is God, He is from everlasting, He is the Creator and was there in the beginning. He is literally the Word of God as John 1:14 tells us. He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. All the prophets give testimony of Him. Why were they sacrificing lambs? Because it is a representation of Our Lord, who is the Lamb of God. That is also why Cain was rejected. He didn't want to believe in the Lamb. He wanted to do it his way. He even had personal one on one conversation with God and this man still got salvation absolutely WRONG. That's because the Lamb is a representation of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Savior. Cain wanted to be justified by his own works. No, it is the work that God did for us.
Last edited by Adama on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:19 am

Adama wrote:To be honest, as I've been trying to say all along, since we know Satan is the god of this world and that he deceives the whole world AND that his ministers can appear as angels of light, why then is it a surprise that most religions are false? They are false because they don't trust in the Lord. Christianity is the only religion which emphasizes THE LORD. Every other religion is about works, which is how you know that it is false. You can't earn your way to salvation because no one is absolutely perfect. Only God is perfect, which is why the only way to heaven is to trust in Him.


Not true at all. Last time I checked, Islam has killed and still kills lots of people who don't believe in Allah. Christianity is not the only belief-based religion.

All this other stuff that you've heard are deceptions of Satan to get you to doubt God's Word so that you cannot get saved and therefore go to hell to suffer with him for eternity. This really is a great battle between good and evil; God and Satan. Satan has immense power on this earth to deceive. That's why I don't believe anything that comes from the world, Ghost.


Then why not make it an even playing field so that everyone is saved or lost by a pure, rational choice? The way you tell it, God is allowing people to be tricked and then blaming them when they get tricked. You really portray God in awful ways.

Put your faith on the Word and stop believing what some scholars said, or what some council wrote. They weren't saved. There have been false prophets since the time of Peter and Paul.


So in other words, disregard real world evidence about the Bible and stop using logic to form conclusions about things?
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:23 am

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:To be honest, as I've been trying to say all along, since we know Satan is the god of this world and that he deceives the whole world AND that his ministers can appear as angels of light, why then is it a surprise that most religions are false? They are false because they don't trust in the Lord. Christianity is the only religion which emphasizes THE LORD. Every other religion is about works, which is how you know that it is false. You can't earn your way to salvation because no one is absolutely perfect. Only God is perfect, which is why the only way to heaven is to trust in Him.


Not true at all. Last time I checked, Islam has killed and still kills lots of people who don't believe in Allah. Christianity is not the only belief-based religion.

All this other stuff that you've heard are deceptions of Satan to get you to doubt God's Word so that you cannot get saved and therefore go to hell to suffer with him for eternity. This really is a great battle between good and evil; God and Satan. Satan has immense power on this earth to deceive. That's why I don't believe anything that comes from the world, Ghost.


Then why not make it an even playing field so that everyone is saved or lost by a pure, rational choice? The way you tell it, God is allowing people to be tricked and then blaming them when they get tricked. You really portray God in awful ways.

Put your faith on the Word and stop believing what some scholars said, or what some council wrote. They weren't saved. There have been false prophets since the time of Peter and Paul.


So in other words, disregard real world evidence about the Bible and stop using logic to form conclusions about things?


Allah yes, but remember, they add in works. The Koran is about works. Of course they want to enforce everyone to go to hell with them, as is their commandment.

Also, it is an even playing field. If you can be saved, you go to heaven. Getting saved is easier than working your way into heaven. You are making a choice when you accept or reject belief on the Lord. That is easy enough. In fact, I have been presenting this forum with this choice many times. Each time though, you've rejected belief alone, seemingly with such contempt and hostility that made me think you even hate our God.

You can still be a scientist but things like evolution and the Big Bang might become harder for you to buy into if you believe the book of Genesis as a Bible believer rather than as a scholar. The rest of the stuff is up to the person whether or not he wants to believe in science. I must admit that most fundamentalists don't believe in most of the alternative theories which I subscribe to. That's just my personal conspiracy interest.
Last edited by Adama on Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:26 am

Adama wrote:Please stop being so adversarial because you asked and I'm complying with your request.


I'm impatient with your bullshit.

If a man committed adultery with another man's wife, as it is stated in the verses I posted above, that man's body would be destroyed in this life. Go and read the verses which I posted. They support what I wrote.


And since I can think of examples where an adulterer did not have his body destroyed in his life, what does that mean?

Believe me, if you went to Africa or India today, you will find that they've all heard of Jesus. There are missionaries going out to every place. And just has God is sending out missionaries to far flung places on the earth today, He was also doing so throughout history. He wants the world to be saved. Remember John 3 For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him may have everlasting life. Anyone who has heard that can go to heaven. It is up to them whether they want to accept the gift of God or whether they want to reject the Holy Ghost and the gift of eternal life.


Today, yes. What about long ago, before Jesus was even born?

The Buddhists, the Hindus, the Islamics are billions of people who know about Jesus. They just don't want to believe that God can have a son, or whatever other lie they choose to believe rather than accepting the gospel. Same as thousands of years ago. They heard. They just rejected it, which is partially how they became Buddhists, Hindus and Islamics.


This statement is so retarded I don't even know how to respond. Same as thousands of years ago? So people whose religion existed before Jesus was born and died rejected him before he came to earth? Your irrationality knows no bounds.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:32 am

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:Please stop being so adversarial because you asked and I'm complying with your request.


I'm impatient with your bullshit.

If a man committed adultery with another man's wife, as it is stated in the verses I posted above, that man's body would be destroyed in this life. Go and read the verses which I posted. They support what I wrote.


And since I can think of examples where an adulterer did not have his body destroyed in his life, what does that mean?

Believe me, if you went to Africa or India today, you will find that they've all heard of Jesus. There are missionaries going out to every place. And just has God is sending out missionaries to far flung places on the earth today, He was also doing so throughout history. He wants the world to be saved. Remember John 3 For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him may have everlasting life. Anyone who has heard that can go to heaven. It is up to them whether they want to accept the gift of God or whether they want to reject the Holy Ghost and the gift of eternal life.


Today, yes. What about long ago, before Jesus was even born?

The Buddhists, the Hindus, the Islamics are billions of people who know about Jesus. They just don't want to believe that God can have a son, or whatever other lie they choose to believe rather than accepting the gospel. Same as thousands of years ago. They heard. They just rejected it, which is partially how they became Buddhists, Hindus and Islamics.


This statement is so retarded I don't even know how to respond. Same as thousands of years ago? So people whose religion existed before Jesus was born and died rejected him before he came to earth? Your irrationality knows no bounds.


Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the last. He was with God at the beginning because He is God. When Abraham walked with the Lord in the flesh, who do you think it is he was walking with?

In any case, the Word of God, even in the OT, went throughout all the world. Just as God is sending out missionaries today, He was also sending them out back then. So when these people's ancestors rejected the Word of God which they received in history, they prevented their own descendants from getting saved. Once they rejected it, strong deceptions of Satan moved in, such as their false works based religions based upon karma.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:34 am

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:Please stop being so adversarial because you asked and I'm complying with your request.


I'm impatient with your bullshit.

This statement is so retarded I don't even know how to respond. Same as thousands of years ago? So people whose religion existed before Jesus was born and died rejected him before he came to earth? Your irrationality knows no bounds.


I've patiently answered your questions at your request. That is not good enough for you. I'm even being straightfoward. No guile. Yet you're hostile towards me and treat me as an adversary rather than as someone you'd like to learn more from.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:38 am

Ghost wrote:
If a man committed adultery with another man's wife, as it is stated in the verses I posted above, that man's body would be destroyed in this life. Go and read the verses which I posted. They support what I wrote.


And since I can think of examples where an adulterer did not have his body destroyed in his life, what does that mean? .


It doesn't mean anything cause we know you're not saved. This is how the saved are punished on earth. You're not saved. Therefore how can you know who is saved and who isn't and for what crimes a person is being punished for? You aren't saved yourself. Now if you witnessed someone who did that yet has not been punished, that means that person is not a child of God. Simple. Because God promises chastisements for sins. Now if you don't believe the Word of God then you don't believe it. But don't expect me to prove it. That is your choice to believe, not mine to enforce.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:42 am

Adama wrote:Allah yes, but remember, they add in works. The Koran is about works.


One could cherry-pick verses from any religious text to make their arguments. One could draw a "works only," "faith only," or "faith + works" doctrine by cherry-picking from the Bible too. Also, I don't understand why you have such an aversion to doing good. This is especially weird since God in the OT laid down the Ten Commandments, the blueprint for a moral society. And your answers reaffirm to me what is wrong with modern Christianity.

Also, it is an even playing field. If you can be saved, you go to heaven.


You just said it wasn't even: that Satan is allowed to trick and deceive people so that they'll be lost. So which is it?

Getting saved is easier than working your way into heaven. You are making a choice when you accept or reject belief on the Lord. That is easy enough. In fact, I have been presenting this forum with this choice many times. Each time though, you've rejected belief alone, seemingly with such contempt and hostility that made me think you even hate our God.


Perhaps you should take a good, long hard look at yourself and think about what you are doing. You've come to this forum and presented God as irrational, unjust, and unmerciful. In your own twisted mind you don't see it that way, but you are blind and need to remove the scales. You've furthermore tried to fit God in a little box, denying the Creation. What you post is so nuts at times that I wonder if you are a troll. If you are real, you're doing nothing but being a stumbling block to those who may be searching. Don't get angry or dismissive. Think about it instead.

I've asked you to explain the idea of belief alone, but it doesn't make sense. You keep shoe-horning works into it in some fashion because you know without it your belief system would appear even more absurd. You even gave me a 'yes and no' answer to a yes OR no question. It's ridiculous.

You can still be a scientist but things like evolution and the Big Bang might become harder for you to buy into if you believe the book of Genesis as a Bible believer rather than as a scholar. The rest of the stuff is up to the person whether or not he wants to believe in science. I must admit that most fundamentalists don't believe in most of the alternative theories which I subscribe to. That's just my personal conspiracy interest.


The Creation story is an allegory, so it's not meant to be a textbook about how the earth and universe were made. (Although there are lots of parallels to the story presented by science, interestingly.) In reality, everything fits. That's what reality is. Just because angels aren't pushing the earth to rotate doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. What you're doing is tantamount to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:56 am

One could cherry-pick verses from any religious text to make their arguments. One could draw a "works only," "faith only," or "faith + works" doctrine by cherry-picking from the Bible too. Also, I don't understand why you have such an aversion to doing good. This is especially weird since God in the OT laid down the Ten Commandments, the blueprint for a moral society. And your answers reaffirm to me what is wrong with modern Christianity.


No, you've just proven that you're incapable of believing, sadly. You don't even seek understanding, having known my stance all along, yet bringing me here only to insult me.

Also, I have no aversion to doing good. Either you didn't read the verses or you didn't understand where it says the penalty for sins on this earth is earthly chastisement and possible sudden destruction. That is certainly not refusing to do good. Nowhere is the Ten Commandments nullified.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Eric » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:07 am

Adama, fear and holding onto fear doesn't work in life. There are many things we don't understand, can't grasp & can't understand. The only real thing about getting it is that we can't -so we don't. Trying to invent rules for ourself is just grasping. It's going to lead you into abyss, not Freedom. We are scared often times. So we cling to what we think 'should' be when a lot of things change. We try to hold our mental re-construction of how 'things are', but they're not. ..things just are. Life is like that, we don't know, experience the mystery.
Grasp the Bible for its metaphorical, important symbolic truths that are present there, as Ghost says - believe he's right. The greatest mystics and masters and religious teachers of all time have always understood all is symbolic.

I was like you. I used to be in my own world in my own head, afraid of the world. I avoided everything and clung to my own world view - always trying to 'invent' something to hold it all together - I was exactly like this. It's easy to change, just change your paradigm, that's hard part. Be willing to experience life on life's terms, go out there and don't run from things - but enjoy them.. We don't have all the answers. And we don't need them. Be willing to experience life in life's terms. It freed me, it will free you.

God be with you
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:18 am

Eric wrote:Adama, fear and holding onto fear doesn't work in life. There are many things we don't understand, can't grasp & can't understand. The only real thing about getting it is that we can't -so we don't. Trying to invent rules for ourself is just grasping. It's going to lead you into abyss, not Freedom. We are scared often times. So we cling to what we think 'should' be when a lot of things change. We try to hold our mental re-construction of how 'things are', but they're not. ..things just are. Life is like that, we don't know, experience the mystery.
Grasp the Bible for its metaphorical, important symbolic truths that are present there, as Ghost says - believe he's right. The greatest mystics and masters and religious teachers of all time have always understood all is symbolic.

God be with you


If you say so, Eric.

I think of it this way. If the Bible is a metaphor, as you say, then if I think it is real, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because in reality is is only a metaphor. So if I believe the Bible was real instead of a metaphor, I have lost nothing.

However, if the Bible is real, yet I only think of it as a metaphor, then I will be in some serious trouble. If it is real and but I refused to believe it was real, preferring to only believe that it is a metaphor, then I will be in trouble, because it's actually true.

But if it's just a metaphor and I think it is real, I will not be in trouble because it's not real to begin with. There's no one to answer to if it's a metaphor, but if it is real, then you better bet there is someone to answer to.
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