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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Ghost » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:02 pm

Adama wrote:This is as literal as it gets. If God defines death as hell, it must mean that the definition of death is hell. Are you like totally dense or what? There is no doubt this is real, literal and not a metaphor or allegory. The fact that you just can't see the whole reason for believing is to avoid hell, and that obviously if He's saying you pass over death it means you pass over hell, is just ridiculous.

Just as eternal, everlasting and forever mean the same thing, so does death of the soul mean hell. Any normal person can see this just from one explanation. You'll never be able to come to believe it. All it should take to believe is one or two verses at most.


Perhaps you should get back to me when you figure out what the words mean. I asked a simple yes-or-no question and you gave me two paragraphs of contradiction.

You keep saying that hell is the death of the soul, but that the soul lives forever in hell. (I.e. is conscious.) Now, if you mean it is a spiritual death (i.e. separation from God, etc.) then that's fine - just say so. But that means that it isn't literal death (i.e. no consciousness) and it's a metaphor. I don't know why you have such a problem with metaphors. Metaphor doesn't mean "lie" or "deception."
Last edited by Ghost on Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:06 pm

fschmidt wrote:The word means "underground" not "grave". Both hell and grave are mistranslations by KJV. Here is a translation (by me) of Deuteronomy 32:22:

"For a fire is kindled in my anger and will burn to the lowest underground and will consume the earth and its produce, and set on fire the foundation of the mountains."

Isn't this logical and consistent? Isn't "the lowest underground" consistent with "the foundation of the mountains"?

Biblical Hebrew always uses concrete imagery to make a point. Fire is very good imagery to express extreme anger.


Does it matter if it says underground or grave when it is a fire that consumes the earth, sets of fire the foundations of mountains? You men are double blinded to the truth.

Imagery for extreme anger? Yeah, duh, as in He is telling you that He's talking about hell. Imagery? How in the world can you even live without having any light in your life?
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby fschmidt » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Adama wrote:Just as a side note for fools, if English has two words, and Hebrew has one word, with two different meanings, then, if we are to say this is an issue of languages, it would be the Hebrew that the problem lies with and not English. English has words which more accurately distinguish the various meanings of one word in Hebrew. That is the Hebrew word has multiple meanings for one word. Whereas the English has more words to distinguish the different meanings of that singular Hebrew word. The problem is with the Hebrew, if we are going to suppose there is a translation problem. Therefore we know, the translation into English isn't the problem. It is the lack of distinctive vocabulary words in the original language.

Actually the problem lies with English which is full of meaningless dichotomies which only serve to confuse people and entertain babbling philosophers. By having a simple vocabulary, the Hebrew Bible guarantees that each word will be used many times and so its meaning can always be determined by its many uses (many contexts). This has been enormously helpful to me in learning Hebrew because both the Christian and Jewish translations are full of obvious lies when one actually studies the Hebrew.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:08 pm

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:This is as literal as it gets. If God defines death as hell, it must mean that the definition of death is hell. Are you like totally dense or what? There is no doubt this is real, literal and not a metaphor or allegory. The fact that you just can't see the whole reason for believing is to avoid hell, and that obviously if He's saying you pass over death it means you pass over hell, is just ridiculous.

Just as eternal, everlasting and forever mean the same thing, so does death of the soul mean hell. Any normal person can see this just from one explanation. You'll never be able to come to believe it. All it should take to believe is one or two verses at most.


Perhaps you should get back to me when you figure out what the words mean. I asked a simple yes-or-no question and you gave me two paragraphs of contradiction.

You keep saying that hell is the death of the soul, but that the soul lives forever in hell. (I.e. is conscious.)



Well if you were smart, you could connect the last dot there on your own. Death of the soul is everlasting, conscious torment in hell forever. There is no inconsistency or error in that statement. What do you think everlasting punishment and destruction are? It's fiery torment and destruction in hell forever and ever. Blind if you can't see that. That's what going to hell means. Why else would it be important for God to come in bodily form to save us from it?

Once a person's body dies, the soul leaves this world. Time as we know it is attached to this world. Time outside of this world is described as everlasting, forever, eternity. That is how time is defined for the next existence. So when a person's body dies, the soul enters the place where it will be outside of earthly time, which is eternity.

There is no termination of the soul's existence. Death of the body happens at once. Death of the soul is eternal punishment.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:38 pm

fschmidt wrote:
Adama wrote:Just as a side note for fools, if English has two words, and Hebrew has one word, with two different meanings, then, if we are to say this is an issue of languages, it would be the Hebrew that the problem lies with and not English. English has words which more accurately distinguish the various meanings of one word in Hebrew. That is the Hebrew word has multiple meanings for one word. Whereas the English has more words to distinguish the different meanings of that singular Hebrew word. The problem is with the Hebrew, if we are going to suppose there is a translation problem. Therefore we know, the translation into English isn't the problem. It is the lack of distinctive vocabulary words in the original language.

Actually the problem lies with English which is full of meaningless dichotomies which only serve to confuse people and entertain babbling philosophers. By having a simple vocabulary, the Hebrew Bible guarantees that each word will be used many times and so its meaning can always be determined by its many uses (many contexts). This has been enormously helpful to me in learning Hebrew because both the Christian and Jewish translations are full of obvious lies when one actually studies the Hebrew.


The only one introducing confusion are men like you, who feel the need to point back to other languages when the English is perfectly clear. Also, you think you have an understanding when you have less than no understanding. It's pitiful. You've wasted your time learning Hebrew, if it was in pursuit of God. That's because, although you claim to be against confusion, you yourself are deeply confused. The fact that you feel the need to learn Hebrew to understand God proves this. You're not seeking after God, because if you were, you would simply believe in Him for salvation. Instead, you've found an insurmountable stumbling block for yourself (and any other fool who would believe you).
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Ghost » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Denying that inaccurate translations happen doesn't make them go away.

Denying that metaphors exist in the Bible doesn't make them go away.

So far you've both failed to answer my (simple) questions and spewed a bunch of nonsense.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Ghost » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:43 pm

fschmidt wrote:
Ghost wrote:That's grasping at straws pretty hard. What does the original language say?

The word is sheol which means underground. KJV Genesis 37:35 has Jacob say "For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning" where "the grave" is a translation of the same Hebrew word (sheol = שְׁאוֹל) that KJV translated as Hell in Deuteronomy 32:22.


Thanks. I have heard about sheoul before, so I wondered if that might've been it. How much ancient Hebrew do you know? Do you often read the Bible in Hebrew? If so, have you gotten new insights from things like the Creation Story?
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:09 pm

Ghost wrote:Denying that inaccurate translations happen doesn't make them go away.

Denying that metaphors exist in the Bible doesn't make them go away.

So far you've both failed to answer my (simple) questions and spewed a bunch of nonsense.


There are inaccurate translations, of course. The King James is just not one of them.

Metaphors do exist in the Bible. You just don't know which ones are and are not metaphors. When God says He made the earth in six days, that is not a metaphor but 100% literal. When Jesus says that whosoever believes in Him has passed from death unto life, he is talking about skipping over hell and going to heaven. We know that He certainly is not saying that the body will not die. Everyone's body dies. Therefore we know it is the soul. Bodily death is the death of the body. Death of the soul is hell. The fact that you can't see simple and easy truths is astoundingly sad. Both you and Fschmidt.

Also, everyone knows that the Jews do not have Jesus. Jesus even says that in the NT. Why then do people consider the advice of hellbound unbelieving Jews? Anyone who believes there is a messiah or Christ other than Jesus is himself an antichrist. Should we listen to someone who denies that Jesus is the messiah? Fschmidt doesn't even believe the Bible is real. Fschmidt will also have to pay for learning and learning but always refusing to believe. It would be better for him if he remained in ignorance of things than to study them and to hold things in unbelief.

I have also never met someone who was so stubborn considering the gospel who was of God. But the vast majority of humanity will also choose the broad path, like you. You two have received a more detailed explanation than most people who get saved ever get. In fact everyone who's read this thread will probably never receive a more detailed explanation on how easy it is to be saved, by simply believing and receiving His righteousness for that simplicity. Salvation is the gift of God, not from the individual because that is self righteousness and denies Christ the glory.

You two and most here will never accept that. How is it that you can be saved if you can't believe?
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:39 pm

If you're unwilling to believe the gospel, eventually God will get so angry with you while you're alive that He will blacken your eyes, harden your heart, and close your ears. There's only so many times God will take rejection. If you refuse to receive the love of the truth enough times then He will reject you. Then there can be no salvation, because He will block your ability to believe the truth. Strong delusions is what those people get, and they can only believe in false gospels after that.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Ghost » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:13 pm

Adama wrote:There are inaccurate translations, of course. The King James is just not one of them.


And you base this on what? I'm guessing it's not based on your vast knowledge of languages.

Fschmidt doesn't even believe the Bible is real.


You say so much retarded shit that it makes it hard to even reply. What is that sentence even supposed to mean? He doesn't believe the Bible is a real book? He doesn't believe in it the same way you do? Pretty sure Fschimdt believes the Bible is real. He's quite a fan of it, in fact.

Fschmidt will also have to pay for learning and learning but always refusing to believe. It would be better for him if he remained in ignorance of things than to study them and to hold things in unbelief.


This is pretty telling about what's really at play here. In your belief system, he's doomed to eternal punishment anyway. Any extra punishment (for things you disaprove of, of course) doesn't really matter. What's interesting about this statement is that you want him to be punished for...learning. Again, it's about your ego. Nothing to do with God, and only superficially to do with the Bible. You don't like being called out for being the ignorant c**t you are, so you try to scare people with supernatural threats. It's projection of what you want to happen to others. As much as you decry figures like the pope, you love speaking for God and telling us what God thinks. Perhaps it is not Fschmidt's learning but your arrogance that will be punished.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:24 pm

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:There are inaccurate translations, of course. The King James is just not one of them.


And you base this on what? I'm guessing it's not based on your vast knowledge of languages.

Fschmidt doesn't even believe the Bible is real.


You say so much retarded shit that it makes it hard to even reply. What is that sentence even supposed to mean? He doesn't believe the Bible is a real book? He doesn't believe in it the same way you do? Pretty sure Fschimdt believes the Bible is real. He's quite a fan of it, in fact.

Fschmidt will also have to pay for learning and learning but always refusing to believe. It would be better for him if he remained in ignorance of things than to study them and to hold things in unbelief.


This is pretty telling about what's really at play here. In your belief system, he's doomed to eternal punishment anyway. Any extra punishment (for things you disaprove of, of course) doesn't really matter. What's interesting about this statement is that you want him to be punished for...learning. Again, it's about your ego. Nothing to do with God, and only superficially to do with the Bible. You don't like being called out for being the ignorant c**t you are, so you try to scare people with supernatural threats. It's projection of what you want to happen to others. As much as you decry figures like the pope, you love speaking for God and telling us what God thinks. Perhaps it is not Fschmidt's learning but your arrogance that will be punished.


It's only because you are unfamiliar with the concept from the Bible, that to whom much is given is much required. The more you know, the more you are responsible for. If you know many things then you can't claim ignorance. How could Fschmidt claim he didn't know when he spent so much time learning? There will not be any excuse for ignorance, because he is not ignorant. He is fully learned, just he refused to submit. Do you get it now?

As for punishment, even in hell there are degrees of punishment. It isn't the same punishment for all. The punishment is worse for worse offenders. Jesus even tells us that some are twofold the children of hell and that others shall receive the greater damnation.

If you think it is my ego, that's unfortunate for you. Still that means either you are unwilling to believe or you can't believe. Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing in Jesus. If you can't believe, that is your own fault. It's not hard. It's only a matter of changing your mind. Everyone has faith in something already.

As for the Bible being real, I am not surprised that what I meant is confusing to you. Just as most Jews, they don't believe the Word of God is true, but just more reading material that's cool to live by.

And it is not "my belief" system. That's why I always posted verses from the Bible for support. But because the Bible can't speak to you, you saw those verses as irrelevant or false interpretations.

Last, you don't need to feel any fear from me. If you were that scared, you could choose not to read this.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:40 pm

Without the Word of God, souls are damned to hell, and God promised to preserve His Word. The King James Bible was the only Bible available in English for the last few hundred years until recently. If the KJV was a bad Bible, then all those people who used it to get saved were not actually saved and are in an unspeakable place instead of with The Lord in heaven.

Also, it was already proven, if you have a heart which can perceive, that there is no confusion in the KJV between sheol, grave, underground and hell. If there is an underground place that burns to the lowest underground place and consumes the earth with her increase and sets on fire the foundation of the mountains, we know the proper word for that place is not the grave or the underground but hell, because those listed traits are characteristics of hell and not either of the other two words. Therefore we can see there was no reason to even go back to the Hebrew, unless you are confused and stumbling at your stumbling block. Anyone who can read can see that.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Adama » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:53 pm

Everyone except Ghost and Fschmidt pay close attention to this:

This is what I wrote:


Adama wrote:Fschmidt will also have to pay for learning and learning but always refusing to believe. It would be better for him if he remained in ignorance of things than to study them and to hold things in unbelief.


This is what Ghost interprets from what I wrote.

Ghost wrote:What's interesting about this statement is that you want him to be punished for...learning.


These are two radically different things which he can't understand.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby fschmidt » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:25 pm

Ghost wrote:Thanks. I have heard about sheoul before, so I wondered if that might've been it. How much ancient Hebrew do you know? Do you often read the Bible in Hebrew? If so, have you gotten new insights from things like the Creation Story?

I only know some ancient Hebrew. Reading the Bible, I know about 2/3 of the words. But even with this little knowledge, I still feel like it has given me a lot of insight. I don't yet know enough to comfortably read the Bible in Hebrew, but I can analyze a passage with Strong's concordance and make sense of it. I think that without knowing basic Hebrew, one just can't use a concordance effectively. But I study Hebrew regularly and I hope to eventually be able to read the Old Testament without so much struggle.

This is a very good tool for Bible study:

http://biblehub.com/
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Re: Ego, Denialism, and Irrationality

Postby Ghost » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:25 am

Adama wrote:Without the Word of God, souls are damned to hell, and God promised to preserve His Word. The King James Bible was the only Bible available in English for the last few hundred years until recently. If the KJV was a bad Bible, then all those people who used it to get saved were not actually saved and are in an unspeakable place instead of with The Lord in heaven.


So it's the correct one because you feel like it. Got it. And what about in other languages? Which Bibles are correct, in, say, Dutch, Chinese, Arabic?

Also, it was already proven, if you have a heart which can perceive, that there is no confusion in the KJV between sheol, grave, underground and hell.


Actually that was the whole point (that Fschimdt made, I just asked the question.) There are inaccurate translations, words that aren't translated as accurately as they could be.

If there is an underground place that burns to the lowest underground place and consumes the earth with her increase and sets on fire the foundation of the mountains, we know the proper word for that place is not the grave or the underground but hell, because those listed traits are characteristics of hell and not either of the other two words. Therefore we can see there was no reason to even go back to the Hebrew, unless you are confused and stumbling at your stumbling block. Anyone who can read can see that.


That verse you quoted seemed to be using imagery to express what great anger is like. It didn't seem to actually have anything to do with hell. like I said, you're grasping at very loose straws.
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