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Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Yohan » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:20 am

Adama wrote:
Yohan wrote:I think, Adama is the 'owner' of a 'one-man-church' - creating a new christian religion out of his fantasy.

.....Have you seen me trying to get men to come live on a compound with me? Am I trying to seclude myself away with other men?
Have I been preaching my own name at all?


I said 'one-man-church'. I do not expect you to find followers for your religious idea with your strange behavior of approaching people in general.
I also see no valid argument about your 'living together with men' argument - why only with men and not with women?

Certainly a feeble attempt and a railing accusation on your part. You're an accuser. You don't even have much evidence of anything, yet you would hurl the accusation anyway. That's ridiculously pathetic.


So far you failed totally to name any church which is teaching and interpreting the bible in a form as you do.

You argue followers of many well-known religions are not Christians, but contradictory to your insulting claims millions of Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovahs etc. do not agree with you - as they resolutely consider themselves as 'Christians'.

It's not only about me - I don't care anyway, as I am an atheist. Your arguments do not convince anybody, even not any of these active members who participate in this thread.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:37 am

Ghost wrote:
Adama wrote:What's my denomination? The one that believes that salvation is the gift of God through faith alone, without works, without repentance, in the Lord Jesus Christ. That we can't lose our salvation because it is the gift of God, it is not of works, it isn't earned, can't be lost, and it is eternal from when the person believes onward. Jesus said there was no way He would cast anyone out and that there is no way He would let anyone pluck us out of His hand.


Was not the whole point of Jesus' ministry to call people to a change of heart (the literal meaning of repentance)? Repent because the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. - Matthew 4:17. Why preach it if it doesn't matter? Actions speak louder than words. In your belief system, apparently a Christian could focus his life around living immorally and it wouldn't matter.

The only name I can figure to call that is a Christian. All others who believe in sacraments, that you can lose salvation, that work must accompany faith as evidence, that repentance is necessary, or that it is by work alone, are false denominations. We know because Paul told us, it is either by work or by grace, not both.


I guess I'll have to start calling you a Paulian then. Your beliefs come from Paul apparently. If that's your belief system, that's your right to it. But it's got little to do with Jesus and his teachings (which apparently don't matter in your belief system.)



It's repent of your unbelief.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 1:15

Repent of your unbelief. If you don't believe in Paul, you don't believe Jesus, because Paul was an apostle of the Lord. There is repentance of unbelief, which takes place in the heart. Even God repented a few times in the OT. It simply means to change your mind if it is in the heart. If it is repent of your sins to be saved it is heresy because that is a work. Turning from sin, abstaining from sin, keeping the law are works of the law. They are not gifts from God. Salvation is the gift of God through our faith in Christ Jesus.

That is not to say we should not do good works. We are supposed to do good works. Just those good works are not what saves us. Our faith in the Lord is what saves. That's because it is about the Lord and His sacrifice on the cross. We cannot sacrifice for ourselves, and if we try, we will go to hell. Because those who want to be judged by their works will be judged by their works, and because no man is righteous in the sight of God without Jesus, that person will be cast into hell. Only Jesus is righteous, and upon belief, His righteousness is imputed unto the believer. Also we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.

Once again, Chapter 3 of John tells us Jesus came TO SAVE THE WORLD for all those people who believe in Him. READ JOHN 3:14-3:18 and tell me what the purpose.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus came to save the world.

As for the permanence of hell, take a look at how these deceived souls also outright dismiss the story of Lazarus, a real man in heaven by Abraham's side, and the rich man in hell as a parable. Although parables usually only mention men by "there was a certain man" and doesn't name them. Parables teach lessons. What was the lesson of the "parable" of the rich man and Lazarus, that the rich man wished that someone would go back to warn his brothers so that they would believe and not end up in hell. What does Abraham say? They have Moses and the other prophets. If they don't believe them, they will not be persuaded though one rose from the dead. They don't want to believe the scripture, then it is on them. The rich man wishes he could have gone back. Too late.

Was the rich man vaporized? Nope. He's still there, in torments. He was even concerned for his still living family members.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:25 am

Need I remind you all, that if you don't accept the gospel of Paul that you don't believe the gospel of Christ. The entire Bible is given by inspiration of the Holy Ghost. You reject a book because you don't like a particular writer, well you are rejecting Christ. Christ is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is what moved those writers.

Also Peter tells us that Paul's writings are part of the scriptures, and Paul's message is consistent with the rest of the Bible. There is no conflict.

There is no wonder why you can't get saved. You don't want to believe the book. Of course if you will not believe one verse, you won't believe the multitude of verses. That's to your own destruction.

And you can call me by any name you want, so long as you think that is righteous to do so. I would be proud if you called me a Paulian, although you should not. Paul is one of the top men of the New Testament, coming in third by my account behind Jesus and John the Baptist. So yeah, call me Paulian. He was a great man.

2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Here Luke reinforces the message that only belief on Jesus is required, which is the same message Jesus preached, and the same that Paul preached.

Acts 16:31 KJV
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

All those Bible scholars who taught you to distrust the Bible, and who taught you to twist the definitions of words like everlasting and punishment, perhaps they can lift you up to heaven and pay for your sins. Much more likely that when those scholars die, just like the demon possessed Ellen G White, they also will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. Oh that isn't me wishing evil upon them. That's me describing what happens to those who spread damnable heresy in unbelief.

They're taking many souls with them to hell because they've deceived through the power of demons. That's why final judgement isnt until the end. The evil work they started while they were still living doesn't stop til the end of time. For as many people as deceived into the cults of 7th Day Adventism and Jehovah's Witnesses, I believe Ellen G White and others will have that also added to their eternal penalty. These people probably thought that Satan would give them a better seat in hell. Well they won't get a better seat. Just one which carries greater damnation.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:04 pm

Revelation 1:18 KJV

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Notice how he mentions death and hell together. That's because, just like eternal life goes with heaven, death goes with hell. In heaven there is eternal life. In hell there is death everlasting.


Revelation 6:8 KJV

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Once again, death and hell go together. That is because, just as eternal life goes with heaven, death goes with hell.


Revelation 20:13 KJV

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Those people who will be judged by their works are the ones who didn't believe in Jesus, but rather they trusted on their own works to get them to heaven. But also, take note once again that death and hell are there together, because they go together for the unsaved.

How and why?


John 5:29 KJV

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Both the saved (believers) and the unsaved (evildoers) will be resurrected, but only the saved are resurrected to life. The unsaved are resurrected to damnation, also known as hell.


14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Once again, if you're paying attention, for the unsaved, death of their souls takes place in hell. Hell is death just as heaven is life.


Romans 6:23 KJV

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Death here is contrasted with eternal life. Where does eternal life take place? In heaven. Where does the death of the soul take place? In hell. Death and hell are inseparable for the damned.


2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Where will this everlasting destruction take place? Where else but hell? Everlasting destruction in hell. Is it becoming clear? It should, unless you have a reprobate mind.


Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


It doesn't sound like anyone is going to burn up and vaporize. That would defeat the purpose of hell. If God had wanted to do that, first He wouldn't have made the verses where He promises everlasting destruction, everlasting punishment, and eternal vengeance (as if those could mean anything other than what it says), but also, He could just terminate existence at the end of the bodily life, but He doesn't.

It is a demonic doctrine meant to get people not to take hell seriously. You're not just going to vanish.

No, the SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT, not just the smoke, but the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. If they weren't being tormented forever, it wouldn't need to say the smoke of their torment but rather just the smoke goes up forever. In fact, there would be no reason to even put the verse in there if they were just going to burn up. These people can't even see that God is trying to emphasize how terrible it is.

Revelation 14:11 KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Is for ever and ever long enough? Do we need to question the definition of for ever and ever? Do we need to compare it to "everlasting" or "eternal"?
How about where He says that THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT? How is that for a time reference? The Lord says THEY WILL NOT HAVE REST from their torment FOREVER AND EVER.

Am I reading this wrong? Someone help me out here.

Also, the fools who don't believe God loved the heathen enough in the OT to send them messengers to get saved believe that he loves condemned sinners so much that He wouldn't require their everlasting punishment when He directly declared it MANY times in the New Testament.

But that's what happens when you get corrupted by trusting in men rather than in God.

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.



1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Mark 9

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


It's so serious that God the Son said it three times in rapid succession. Keep believing that you'll just burn up and be gone. The Lord Himself says that death will not rescue them from the unquenchable fire.


Isaiah 66:24 KJV

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:34 pm



Revelation 14:11 KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Mark 9

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Isaiah 66:24 KJV

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


Although this does not give that golden phrase you're looking for, which is supposed to say 'Sinners burn in hell for eternity' or some permutation thereof, these four verses above directly tell us that they will not die in hell. You see, they will not vaporize; nor will they be annihilated; nor oblitherated. Neither will they cease to exist. They will exist for ever and ever in eternal fire, just as any sane person would conclude just from looking at any one verse.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.

For those of us who don't have reprobate minds, do you see how no rest day nor night is used to reinforce for ever and ever? They will not have rest day or night forever and ever.

Isaiah 28:19 KJV

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report


Matthew 22:13 KJV

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Vaporized men don't weep or gnash teeth.


Deuteronomy 32:24 KJV

24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.


That doesn't read like they're gonna get vaporized. It reads to me like everlasting torment. But here I am, assuming too much!! Sounds worse than just fire: burning heat, hunger, bitter destruction, set upon by the teeth of beasts and the poison of serpents. Where's the vaporization?


Revelation 9:2 KJV

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.



Jeremiah 23:39-40 KJV

39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:19 am

I understand your belief system a bit better now, or perhaps I should say I know what a few of your core beliefs are, although it doesn't make sense and has little to do with Jesus. You just make up your own definitions of words. This back and forth is largely pointless.

Here are the two main things I've gathered about your belief system:

1. Believe in Jesus, but no need to do what he says to do.

2. Everyone gets eternal life, either in heaven or hell.

I should know better than to expect rational answers to convoluted 'circles within circles' belief systems.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:15 am

Okay, so my brother just got saved last year. He hasn't been in church before or since, as far as I know. That is about two hours over all his life. I read to him ONE verse. Then I asked him how long hell lasts for. He said obviously it lasts forever, because it says for ever. I read some more verses. I asked him again. He said it lasts forever.

It says everlasting right there. Do you know why he can take one glimpse and know the answer? It isn't cause we were raised in church. We were not. It is because the Holy Ghost is with him interpreting the Bible.

Ghost and TheAdventurer, when you awaken in the next world, I want you to remember how much you hated the message I've written here. You could have just ignored me and been on your way, but instead you decided that you'd prefer to be an enemy. That doesn't matter to me though. No skin off my back.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:19 am

Ghost wrote:I understand your belief system a bit better now, or perhaps I should say I know what a few of your core beliefs are, although it doesn't make sense and has little to do with Jesus. You just make up your own definitions of words. This back and forth is largely pointless.

Here are the two main things I've gathered about your belief system:

1. Believe in Jesus, but no need to do what he says to do.

2. Everyone gets eternal life, either in heaven or hell.

I should know better than to expect rational answers to convoluted 'circles within circles' belief systems.


Because your mind is reprobate, you'll never have any understanding of the truth. Eternal life is defined as heaven by God. Can you read? Everlasting destruction and punishment are hell. You are the thickest person I've ever encountered.

Believe in Jesus for salvation. Belief in Jesus is what gets a person to heaven. Doing what He says has no impact on getting to heaven, because it isnt about WORK for the believer. Jesus did the work to get us to heaven. But we are ordered to follow the commandments, which is a different issue from salvation. And if we break the commandments, we're still saved, because Jesus paid the price for our sin. Of course as children of God He will chastise us as promised, which could range from financial disaster, to physical sickness and disease to death. He has mercy for believers. He has declared us righteous and promised that He would not cast us out and that no one can pluck us away from Him.

Now that you understand and still aren't saved, you may have more to answer for. I'd almost feel sorry for you, having been indoctrinated with damnable heresy, but you're one of the most hostile individuals I've encountered online.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:25 am

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


It's not hard to understand the truth, unless you've been given over to a reprobate mind.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:13 pm

Your version of Christianity doesn't make sense. Your beliefs invalidate virtually everything God and Jesus say in the Bible. Either what they said didn't matter, or the problem lies with you. I know which side I'm on.

You also don't know the definitions of "dead" and "repent." And apparently if one believes in Jesus but doesn't believe in eternal hell, they are still going to hell according to you. (I'm assuming that's why you call it "damnable heresy.") Which would mean to get to heaven people also have to believe in the (according to Adama) correct doctrine too. Your belief system is a clusterfuck of contradictory and non-sensical stuff. The more you say, the less sense it makes. Not that I have any reason to take anything you say seriously. You're willing to lie about such things as the shape of the earth, so I already know you're a false man.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:34 pm

Ghost wrote:Your version of Christianity doesn't make sense. Your beliefs invalidate virtually everything God and Jesus say in the Bible. Either what they said didn't matter, or the problem lies with you. I know which side I'm on.

You also don't know the definitions of "dead" and "repent." And apparently if one believes in Jesus but doesn't believe in eternal hell, they are still going to hell according to you. (I'm assuming that's why you call it "damnable heresy.") Which would mean to get to heaven people also have to believe in the (according to Adama) correct doctrine too. Your belief system is a clusterfuck of contradictory and non-sensical stuff. The more you say, the less sense it makes. Not that I have any reason to take anything you say seriously. You're willing to lie about such things as the shape of the earth, so I already know you're a false man.


Quite frankly, it doesn't disappoint me that you don't get it and that you don't want to get it. Your conscience has been seared with a hot iron. You have a reprobate mind. You won't accept the love of the truth simply by reading the text of the Bible. I am irrelevant. Anyone like you who can read and not understand many times over, and after having it fully explained over and over, must be hopeless. Oh well.

I've given the gospel to strangers and done soul winning. Never have I encountered anyone like you or the Adventurer. Most people accept the gospel with gladness. I have never had anyone be so hateful towards the Bible and the messenger as have you two.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:46 pm

Ghost wrote:if one believes in Jesus but doesn't believe in eternal hell, they are still going to hell according to you. .


In theory you can believe in Jesus and believe there isn't a hell. However, if you believe in Jesus, you will believe His Word. You don't hear the Word, that means you're probably not saved. Most especially if you don't understand verses which are straightforward and easy to understand, that says that you are definitely not saved.

You and your friend are intelligent, wise men, who say I am lying. I am just a man. I am not God. Nor is my opinion important. If the BIBLE verses say everlasting and you don't believe it is everlasting after having read those verses, then that means the truth is not in you, Christ is not with you, and neither is the Holy Ghost. Because if He were with you, you would accept the truth of those verses.

You can believe anything you want about me. If I am lying about the Word of God then God will punish me, especially if I lead others astray.

And obviously you lack reading comprehension or you didn't read (or your conscience is just seared with a hot iron and your mind is reprobate, and your heart harder than stone). Jesus even tells the man after He healed him, SIN NOT AGAIN LEST A WORST THING COME UPON THEE.

We can't work our way into heaven. Any bobblehead knows that. Read the verses. That's what they say. It isn't me saying it. When we sin, God punishes the earthly life and possibly will remove some of the glory we'd receive as reward in heaven, but heaven is never lost, neither is eternal life. You don't get it because you don't believe the WORD of God. Too bad for you.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:10 pm

retiredfrank wrote:Sounds like a great religion you have there. "Believe in Jesus", whatever that means, and then you can do whatever you want and feel good about yourself and feel superior to other people. Of course you can do the same thing without religion, and people do it all the time. For example, I do what I want, I feel good about myself, and I feel superior to other people (though I don't rant about them burning in hell for eternity) without belief in Jesus.


That's untrue and you know it. If that were true, then 100% of everybody and most especially YOU would believe in Jesus. You'd have nothing to lose. Unfortunately or fortunately (and this is just my opinion here), the soul knows even if the mind doesn't know, that once you're saved, God isn't going to allow you to do abominable (meaning disgusting) things. And I bet if you came close enough to attempting it, He could just give you serious medical illness or take your life altogether. That is the price to avoid hell. If you want to sin and be saved, you will suffer for it.

Remember, God said that murderers don't have eternal life. 1 John 3:15 KJV. So you know that believers can't commit premeditated murder. That's one sin that you can't commit as a believer right there.

So no. You can't do just anything you want. You want to think that's what it means. But if it really meant that, then the whole world would simply believe in Christ, cause they could keep on sinning. You yourself would probably put a little faith on Christ to be saved, if it were possible.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Adama » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:27 pm

Ghost wrote:You also don't know the definitions of "dead" and "repent."


It seems that The Lord has a different definition of death as well, which happens to agree with the one that I have been writing here, kind sir.

John 11:26

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

They shall never die. As in, they will never go to hell. THIS IS WHY THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER OVER THE SAVED. THEY WILL NOT GO TO HELL BECAUSE GOD PROMISED US ETERNAL LIFE FOR BELIEVING ON HIS SON. WE WILL NEVER DIE!

Death is hell. You learned, wise man!
Last edited by Adama on Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Understanding a belief-based religion: questions for Ada

Postby Ghost » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:29 pm

Adama wrote:Quite frankly, it doesn't disappoint me that you don't get it and that you don't want to get it.


Sure it does. That's why you keep replying to this thread. All I wanted from this thread was to understand your belief system, for you to make it make sense. I am disappointed in you.

Your conscience has been seared with a hot iron. You have a reprobate mind. You won't accept the love of the truth simply by reading the text of the Bible. I am irrelevant. Anyone like you who can read and not understand many times over, and after having it fully explained over and over, must be hopeless. Oh well.


You change the definitions of words as you like and most of the verses you post are vague. But I guess to your mind calling you on your bullshit means I hate the Bible. Maybe you're just really bad at explaining things and lack reading comprehension.

I've given the gospel to strangers and done soul winning. Never have I encountered anyone like you or the Adventurer. Most people accept the gospel with gladness. I have never had anyone be so hateful towards the Bible and the messenger as have you two.


This right here tells me you don't get it. I don't hate the Bible. That you would suggest such a silly thing reaffirms what I already know about you: that this has little to do with the Bible, and is mostly about your fragile ego.
Ghost
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