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Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

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Winston
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Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Winston » October 31st, 2017, 10:48 pm

Me and my Venetian friend alex talked about why many or most Christians are not true Christians and why the Christian church tells half truths about how to be saved. See below. Adama will probably agree with this.


[10/8, 2:04 PM] Alex From Venice: I think new age books have many rhetoric
[10/8, 2:05 PM] Alex From Venice: that increases the sales
[10/8, 2:05 PM] Alex From Venice: if you tell the plain truth you won't be appealing to the mass
[10/8, 2:07 PM] Alex From Venice: it's like saying the half truth "if you believe in Jesus you'll gain eternal life"
[10/8, 2:07 PM] Alex From Venice: instead "if you believe in Jesus and you do all that he taught you'll gain eternal life"
[10/8, 2:08 PM] Alex From Venice: of course the first version is much more appealing than the second
[10/8, 2:08 PM] Alex From Venice: because it's more easy
[10/8, 2:09 PM] Alex From Venice: but it's half truth
[10/8, 3:05 PM] Winston: What u say is logical. Although the bible is not always consistent, if I were jesus i would not be happy if someone merely believed in me but didnt follow my teachings. That would be hypocritical. Of course following someones teachings is not easy and it involves changing your life and mind too.
[10/8, 3:06 PM] Winston: But Christians in America think they can sin all they want and be forgiven. is that true?
[10/8, 3:07 PM] Winston: Also talking about hell is unpopular too. So many Christian preachers never talk about it. Even famous ones like Joel Osteen dont mention it.
[10/8, 3:07 PM] Alex From Venice: that's because what's is been taught by the church it's the half truth
[10/8, 3:07 PM] Alex From Venice: that believing in Jesus it's the only requirement needed
[10/8, 3:08 PM] Alex From Venice: that's why so many Christians don't act as a Christian should, yet they think they are going to be saved
[10/8, 3:09 PM] Winston: In italy the Christians believe that too? Half truths?
[10/8, 3:09 PM] Alex From Venice: yes
[10/8, 3:10 PM] Alex From Venice: it's like a common habit
[10/8, 3:10 PM] Winston: But its impossible not to sin though. We all have bad thoughts and bad character flaws.
[10/8, 3:10 PM] Winston: Jesus does not expect anyone to be perfect.
[10/8, 3:11 PM] Alex From Venice: because it's easier, less demanding
[10/8, 3:12 PM] Alex From Venice: yes, but Jesus expect you to think about his words before you do or don't do something
[10/8, 3:13 PM] Winston: Jesus just expects u to be good most of the time right?
[10/8, 3:13 PM] Alex From Venice: most of so called Christians they actually do whatever they think it's good to them even if it's clearly conflicting with what Jesus taught us
[10/8, 3:15 PM] Alex From Venice: they lie, they seek for revenge, they ignore the neighbor, they omit to help, they are greedy, they act selfish, they don't believe in love
[10/8, 3:17 PM] Alex From Venice: Jesus one said that we are made different and therefore not everyone can be saint same as Him
[10/8, 3:17 PM] Alex From Venice: once said (it's written in the Gospel)
[10/8, 3:19 PM] Alex From Venice: but we are expected to focus on His words and keep Him always as model of perfection
[10/8, 3:21 PM] Alex From Venice: like, for example, if 3 days ago I wouldn't tell the prospective about the water pressure issue, I had to admit that I had lack of courage because it's obvious that Jesus would have chose to help the neighbor from getting cheated despite the risk of revenge from the landlord
[10/8, 3:22 PM] Alex From Venice: Jesus was brave when it was matter of helping others
[10/8, 3:22 PM] Alex From Venice: He was like an hero
[10/8, 3:23 PM] Alex From Venice: we should be all heroes and be ready to sacrifice ourselves for the love of anyone else who is in need of help or in danger
[10/8, 3:23 PM] Alex From Venice: we should be all brave hearts
[10/8, 3:23 PM] Alex From Venice: of course that's ideal
[10/8, 3:24 PM] Alex From Venice: I think I can't never be an hero
[10/8, 3:24 PM] Alex From Venice: or maybe yes, I already have been somehow, once at least
[10/8, 3:26 PM] Alex From Venice: but it's more easy to be heroic when the one you love is the one that needs help
[10/8, 3:26 PM] Alex From Venice: your parents, your siblings, your wife, you're kids
[10/8, 3:27 PM] Alex From Venice: true heroes sacrifice themselves for everyone and anyone
[10/8, 3:27 PM] Alex From Venice: I don't think that's me
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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 3:02 am

No, you can't sin as much as you want to. That is a misunderstanding which many of those who lack knowledge possess.

It is true that salvation is by faith alone (or by simply believing, just another way of saying it). Salvation is not by works because Jesus kept the whole law for us. He fulfilled all righteousness and thereby He conquered the commandments for us. Meaning that He has overcome the commandments for us. And then He took the penalty for our sins by dying for us. So all we must do is believe in Him.

This is why there is no work of repentance from sins that can save a person. Because repentance from sin is nothing more than turning from sin and then keeping the law, which is work. Trusting in our own works is not trust in the Lord. It is trusting in ourselves. Salvation is outside the commandments. It is by faith alone.

Now, because a person doesn't keep the law to be saved, it doesn't mean they can sin as much as they want. There are two forms of death. There is the eternal death of the soul known as hell (where eternal punishment takes place for the soul). Then there is death of the body. This can come in the forms of premature death, diseases, ailments, and all kinds of trouble, including spiritual blindness which means basically missing out on much of the good things in life because they're living in a confused state.

The way is still narrow. On the broad path people can sin as much as they want. God hates sin and demands holiness. Therefore Christians, if they do not want to be punished, must walk on the narrow path. Else they may face disease, premature death, blindness of heart and other forms of trouble as punishment. Their souls remained saved. Because there is no point in rescuing and playing hop scotch with salvation. Salvation can't be lost. It's eternal just as the words indicate, and once a person believes in the Lord, he has already gained eternal life, because it is an immediate gift, not one which one must wait to see if it's going to be there. As soon as the person believes by faith alone, they are saved and possess eternal life.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 3:17 am

[10/8, 3:15 PM] Alex From Venice: they lie, they seek for revenge, they ignore the neighbor, they omit to help, they are greedy, they act selfish, they don't believe in love
If a Christian is like that, then he is in trouble. Anyone seeking revenge is doing evil, and God hates that. Vengeance belongs to God. For a person to take revenge it is to do evil. Read Psalm 37. A believer is also supposed to be merciful and lend and to repay those he's borrowed from. They are to show kindness or at least withhold themselves from wrath. Read Psalm 37. It's all in there. Job explains this too.

Probably most of the Christians in Italy are not Christians but Catholics, which is something completely different. Catholics believe in sacraments (matrimony, baptism, communion, church attendance etc) which are works, for salvation. They also worship Mary, the saints, and statues and they do many things that Christians know not to do. Christians know better than to do these blatant things which are idolatry. Catholics routinely pray to Mary, kiss statues, and exalt Mary as being the intermediator between God and men, when Christ is the only mediator. And on and on, all these things which Catholics have no clue about, concerning Christ. It's a false gospel. And in real Christianity, every believer is a saint (sanctified by God), not just a scant few who get beautified!

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Winston » November 2nd, 2017, 3:21 am

Whether salvation is by faith or works, i don't think Jesus likes people who only accept him but dont follow his teachings.

You gotta understand adama that many of your doctrines come from church. The bible can be used to support salvation by faith or works or many other things, depending on which verses you listen to. There is no one right interpretation of the bible. Even if you think there is, there isnt.
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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Winston » November 2nd, 2017, 3:27 am

Also adama,
The Christianity in Europe i heard is different from America. They dont believe that the unsaved go to hell. They believe they go to purgatory. Even the protestants believe that in europe.

So this "believe or be damned" doctrine is mostly an American invention. That undermines its credibility greatly if only american culture has such a religion, because then it means its pretty modern. Most europeans have never heard of such a doctrine that says all non-believers go to hell. Thats only taught in America. Its an american style of Christianity. I was fascinated to learn about this difference.

Also European Christians also believe that God will balance your good works and bad works when you die to see if you go to heaven. Not on whether you were saved and accepted Christ or not. Their version is probably older and more traditional. The version we were taught by evangelicals in the US is more of a modern form of Christianity, probably dating from the 1800s.

This just goes to show that Americans love using FEAR to try to convert others and control others and persuade others. Seems to be the American way and style. Scare people to get your way. Very immature and unevolved.
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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Yohan » November 2nd, 2017, 3:40 am

A huge number of people consider religion = tradition here in Japan which is likely 90 percent Shinto/Buddhist. They participate with all those religious festivals, but if you ask them something in detail about their religion they have no idea.

Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians?

You could say that about any religion, for example how many Muslims are not true Muslims? I met some of them starting every day their breakfast with a bottle of whisky in Japan, as Allah is far away in Saudi Arabia....

How many Buddhists are not TRUE Buddhists? They are violent thieves full with drugs in SE Asia.

I also heard about a Jehovah witness, who suddenly was asking medical doctors for a heart transplant instead of giving away his life....

Some atheists suddenly convert and become religious when getting old and the natural death is near...

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by MrPeabody » November 2nd, 2017, 7:03 am

Here is my estimate for Christianity:

Genuine 1%
True Believers 5%
Anguished 10%
Conventional 84%

Starting from the bottom. Most people are conventional. That is they are doing it because their parents did, and it is an expected social obligation. Their actual understanding of the religion is shallow to nonextistant. They need a church for birth, death, Christmas, and Easter.

Anguished: These people are actually trying. They think they should take the religion seriously, but they are racked with doubts and struggles to believe. They frequently give in to their desires and feel guilty.

True Believers: They don't have any doubts because of deep psychological problems or low IQ. These are typically the cruelist class who give the religion a bad name.

Genuine: Their lives are actually transformed for the better and they actually do have some love for humanity. 1% may be an overestimate.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 1:19 pm

Winston wrote:Whether salvation is by faith or works, i don't think Jesus likes people who only accept him but dont follow his teachings.

You gotta understand adama that many of your doctrines come from church. The bible can be used to support salvation by faith or works or many other things, depending on which verses you listen to. There is no one right interpretation of the bible. Even if you think there is, there isnt.

Not at all. The multiplicity of verses show without a shadow of a doubt that salvation is by faith alone.

There are three types of people who think salvation is by works: 1. The reprobate who can't receive any knowledge cause God doesn't want them. They are rejected. 2. The False Prophets, who are the agents of Satan: their job is to make sure you don't get to heaven. They can be considered part of number one. 3. The unfortunate person who has been taught lies by the false prophets, but when they receive the truth, they recognize it and no longer subscribe to delusions. This set of people is not rejected by God.

Many of those people who think salvation is by works are those who are under strong delusion to believe lies, because God doesn't want them, because they rejected Him directly by refusing to believe, or they turned themselves into vile beasts because they loved sin more than they love the truth, God or righteousness (which is also rejecting God and becoming a child of Satan by giving themselves over to evil and to live like a beast).

I could post 100 verses right here that show faith alone is salvation, but it would not convince people who are unable to believe.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 1:33 pm

Winston wrote:Also adama,
The Christianity in Europe i heard is different from America. They dont believe that the unsaved go to hell. They believe they go to purgatory. Even the protestants believe that in europe.

So this "believe or be damned" doctrine is mostly an American invention. That undermines its credibility greatly if only american culture has such a religion, because then it means its pretty modern. Most europeans have never heard of such a doctrine that says all non-believers go to hell. Thats only taught in America. Its an american style of Christianity. I was fascinated to learn about this difference.

Also European Christians also believe that God will balance your good works and bad works when you die to see if you go to heaven. Not on whether you were saved and accepted Christ or not. Their version is probably older and more traditional. The version we were taught by evangelicals in the US is more of a modern form of Christianity, probably dating from the 1800s.

This just goes to show that Americans love using FEAR to try to convert others and control others and persuade others. Seems to be the American way and style. Scare people to get your way. Very immature and unevolved.
Here's the thing about Europe. Europe used to be Catholic, and the Catholic church is still there and wields influence. The Pope used to be considered the King of Kings.

So essentially the Christians of Europe still have a Catholic doctrine, because the churches they have directly came out of Catholicism.

Another thing is, most of those Christian denominations are also supported by the state. And does the state or nation support God or are they enemies of God being ruled by Satan, as the Bible indicates?

And for some reason people don't understand that the winners are the ones who write history. Just because the winners wrote out real Christianity, it doesn't mean it was never around. It just means that they suppressed it.

Do you not know that the Catholic church used to torture people who used to believe in other Christian doctrines? Forcing many Christians to remain underground.

So when you say "American" Christianity is new, it's not that it's new. It's that the USA provided freedom from persecution for not being Catholic. There were always real Christians around in Europe, just they were not supported by the state, and the state and the Catholic church suppressed and oppressed them.

Now that's why non-Catholics have purgatory, because that is a foolish Catholic doctrine, and that also shows you how most Catholics are not Christian, because purgatory is not in the Bible anywhere. And if you want to talk about modern inventions, purgatory is it. Purgatory is pure nonsense and it is a made up on the fly, ticket out of hell.

See, that's a false form of Christianity in which there is no eternal penalty for sin. Therefore they must minimize hell to deceive everyone into thinking it isn't real. Well most people who think hell is fiction are the ones who are going there, because they refused to get saved because they figured they would not truly be destroyed for sin. It will be one horrible, unending surprise once they get there and see: all they had to do was believe.

But they think believing is a true hardship (and it probably is for the rejected mind who is incapable of believing the truth).

The real ironic thing though, is that the most godless people criticize faith alone salvation, preferring work salvation. But the people who believe in work salvation somehow do not understand even from their own behavior that they certainly are not keeping the law themselves. How do they expect to be granted entry into heaven by their works when their works are evil? That's because they are delusional and deceived about what good and evil are, being ignorant of the Bible and God's Word.

A person cannot work their way to heaven by abstaining from evil or by doing good. That defeats the whole purpose of Christ dying for our sins, if we could do it for ourselves. These work salvation people think they don't need Christ. And that may simply be because many of them are unable to believe in Christ, being rejected by God.

Hey, Winston, those Europeans used to be so deceived that they thought they could purchase indulgences. And the poor people are locked into this religion that just hates their souls. You can warn them and warn them, but many of them don't want life. They want death, because they think death is life, as the ways of sin that lead to death are too pleasurable to give up. So they'd rather believe a lie that their parents taught them than believe and then walk the narrow path.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 1:47 pm

Yohan wrote:A huge number of people consider religion = tradition here in Japan which is likely 90 percent Shinto/Buddhist. They participate with all those religious festivals, but if you ask them something in detail about their religion they have no idea.

Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians?

You could say that about any religion, for example how many Muslims are not true Muslims? I met some of them starting every day their breakfast with a bottle of whisky in Japan, as Allah is far away in Saudi Arabia....

How many Buddhists are not TRUE Buddhists? They are violent thieves full with drugs in SE Asia.

I also heard about a Jehovah witness, who suddenly was asking medical doctors for a heart transplant instead of giving away his life....

Some atheists suddenly convert and become religious when getting old and the natural death is near...
Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians. They are cults centered around persons who are not Christ. Christ and the Bible are not their authorities, but man. Anyone can look into it and see. These people are in no way Christian.

It isn't even a case of being a different version of Christianity. They just made up some stuff, borrowed some things from the Bible and twisted them, but they just label themselves Christian.

But they are cults. It's not the same as a Christian coming to your door.

Go on Youtube and listen to a Jehovah's Witness sermon to see what they believe about Christ. They believe in the most absurd things, and you'll think to yourself that a person must be insane to believe in those things which they believe, which are obvious to most people.

Same as Scientology, just Scientology is probably the worst widely known cult a person could join. Each of them will destroy your life and your soul.

I'd invite everyone just to go on YT and explore it for yourselves.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 2:01 pm

Winston wrote: Also European Christians also believe that God will balance your good works and bad works when you die to see if you go to heaven. Not on whether you were saved and accepted Christ or not. Their version is probably older and more traditional.

That's absolute insanity, Winston.

God's standard is absolute perfect holiness. A man's solitary evil deed, even one sin as a young child, will make him unworthy to go to heaven. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The standard of perfect holiness is too high for any mortal man.

This is why Christ had to come, as the Son of God, the messiah, to rescue people from their sins. Only He could live sinless FROM DAY ONE UNTIL DEATH. Thereby He kept all the commandments, which only God can do. And then He died to take our penalty.

This is why salvation is not by works, not by the law. Salvation is outside the commandments. The commandments have nothing to do with salvation, because Christ fulfilled the whole law for all those who believe in Him.

And once a person believes in Him, God imputes the righteousness of Christ onto that believer, making him worthy of entry into heaven. Salvation is by faith alone.

Work salvation is like trying to build a ladder and barge your way into heaven. It's not going to happen.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 2:07 pm

MrPeabody wrote:Here is my estimate for Christianity:

Genuine 1%
True Believers 5%
Anguished 10%
Conventional 84%

Starting from the bottom. Most people are conventional. That is they are doing it because their parents did, and it is an expected social obligation. Their actual understanding of the religion is shallow to nonextistant. They need a church for birth, death, Christmas, and Easter.

Anguished: These people are actually trying. They think they should take the religion seriously, but they are racked with doubts and struggles to believe. They frequently give in to their desires and feel guilty.

True Believers: They don't have any doubts because of deep psychological problems or low IQ. These are typically the cruelist class who give the religion a bad name.

Genuine: Their lives are actually transformed for the better and they actually do have some love for humanity. 1% may be an overestimate.
It's probably 90% deceived Christians who believe in a false doctrine.

As for IQ, I think that just comes from people who are filled with hatred for Christians. There are lots of unintelligent people on earth. Some subscribe to a form of Christianity and some don't. And some of that might be regional differences and variations in culture.

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 5:36 pm

What u say is logical. Although the bible is not always consistent, if I were jesus i would not be happy if someone merely believed in me but didnt follow my teachings. That would be hypocritical. Of course following someones teachings is not easy and it involves changing your life and mind too.
That's because you're diminishing the role of Christ to that of simply another teacher. He did teach, but He came to save us from our sins. In order to be saved from the penalty for our sins, all a person must do is believe in Him: Because He kept all the commandments and overcame the law for us and He also took our penalty by dying for our sins.

So He isn't just a teacher whose end goal was simply to show people how to live. He came to rescue people from their sins. So He did something far more than just teach doctrine.

If He were just another teacher, then it might make sense. But this isn't about following Christ as a teacher of the law. It is about believing in Him for salvation BECAUSE HE OVERCAME THE LAW AND DIED FOR OUR SINS.

Yes He is the Lord or the boss, but He is also THE SAVIOR! Lordship salvation is work salvation.

Now if you believe in Christ for salvation then you're a Christian. But if you think salvation comes by keeping the law then you've missed the mark.


Alex From Venice: Jesus one said that we are made different and therefore not everyone can be saint same as Him
Alex From Venice: once said (it's written in the Gospel)
Alex From Venice: but we are expected to focus on His words and keep Him always as model of perfection
I notice there's no book chapter verse mentioned here. To me this sounds like it's fluff that someone chooses to buy into. It makes sense to them. So they go with it. They don't even bother to check.

I wouldn't trust anyone who's quoting the Bible but yet has no idea what they are saying. Shouldn't a person come as close as possible to accuracy if they are quoting the Bible, especially if they are taking about Christ's requirements for eternal life? This so and so excuse and and misquoting Christ is not good. How can you trust such a person who just seems to be making up stuff out of his mind?

These people preach work salvation and say that Christ's standard is perfect. Yet they somehow forget that the only perfect person there ever was is Christ. What they don't realize is that in their fantasy world, salvation is impossible by the words out of their own lips. Nobody would be in heaven if their standard were real. Cause it even acknowledges that their doctrine contracts itself. Yet the people speaking these words are clueless that they are basically saying that they themselves are not going to heaven, because the salvation plan they speak is impossible and contradictory (you must be perfect like Christ to be saved but nobody can be perfect like Christ, but still salvation is by works and not by faith).

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 5:57 pm

Winston wrote: Alex From Venice: Jesus was brave when it was matter of helping others
Alex From Venice: He was like an hero
Alex From Venice: we should be all heroes and be ready to sacrifice ourselves for the love of anyone else who is in need of help or in danger
Alex From Venice: we should be all brave hearts
Alex From Venice: of course that's ideal
Alex From Venice: I think I can't never be an hero
It seems to me your friend Alex is in darkness. He contradicts himself repeatedly. I wouldn't consider such a person an authority on any spiritual topic.

And the requirement now has gone from perfection to being a hero, and he is admitting that he can't be a hero. Are we to take this seriously?

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Re: Why many Christians are not TRUE Christians

Post by Adama » November 2nd, 2017, 6:09 pm

The more I re-read this, the more it just pops out at me. I don't think Alex has a clue what he is talking about, but he's sure of it!
Alex From Venice: that's because what's is been taught by the church it's the half truth
Alex From Venice: that believing in Jesus it's the only requirement needed
Alex From Venice: that's why so many Christians don't act as a Christian should, yet they think they are going to be saved
Winston: But its impossible not to sin though. We all have bad thoughts and bad character flaws.
Winston: Jesus does not expect anyone to be perfect.
Alex From Venice: because it's easier, less demanding
Alex From Venice: yes, but Jesus expect you to think about his words before you do or don't do something
The Bible is clear. All a person must do to be saved is believe. That is the whole truth. Yet this man is sure that it is a half truth. Then he goes on to NOT tell you anything but give you a vague statement. Presumably the other half of the truth is to think about his words before you do or don't do something.

Keep in mind that this person who is telling us to think about his words thinks salvation is future and not present tense, he doesn't realize all the scriptures that say salvation is by faith alone, and he can't give a clear definition of what the other half of the truth is, besides being a hero? Keeping the law?

But as Winston said, nobody is perfect. That's why Christ was perfect for us. So that all we have to do is believe in Him and He saves us.

This is not a competition to be the most manly, the most heroic, or even the most holy. It is simply by trusting in what Christ did. But they have to add themselves in there, thinking that you must do something more than what our Savior has already done. As if their work compares to Christ's work. What do they need Christ for? They don't believe in Him but in themselves. And they can't even save themselves if they think being a hero is the requirement and to think on his words (or keep the law to be saved?, especially since none of them even know half the commandments).

They make things complicated. Salvation is easy: BELIEVE. Their foolish plan of salvation is going to destroy them. Only because they somehow think Christ died but wants them to jump through hoops. They don't even know which hoops. These people make up their own law and think it is the same as God's law. That's about how serious they are.

And these are deep thinkers? They can't see how damnable their false doctrine is.

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