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There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Adama
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 28th, 2017, 4:39 am

MrMan wrote:
November 28th, 2017, 3:58 am

Luke 24
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

I love that. Because man shall not live by bread alone.
MrMan wrote:
November 28th, 2017, 3:58 am
There are preachers of the gospel on TV, and there are those who promote false doctrine as well.

Adama,

Repentance faith are not diametrically opposed to one another. Preaching repentance does not mean one is not preaching salvation by faith. Repentance is not 'the works of the law' that Paul wrote about.

You came to back up your version of Christianity (the works by the side door version, through repentance). You didn't even come to defend Christianity against anything which Misko had written.

Wow.

Of course, that's just me being sensitive again. :mrgreen:
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.




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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 28th, 2017, 5:02 am

MrMan wrote:
November 28th, 2017, 3:58 am
Paul apparently believed that believing in Jesus had some implications for the individual's behavior. Jesus said we would know a tree by its fruit.
I know. Like when they preach works through the side door. Believing means more than believing.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by MrMan » November 28th, 2017, 11:45 am

Adama wrote:
November 28th, 2017, 4:39 am
You didn't even come to defend Christianity against anything which Misko had written.
I don't know who Misko is or what you are talking about. I don't read every thread.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 28th, 2017, 4:05 pm

MrMan, it was this thread, one post above the one of mine which you responded to. Can you not see with your eyes?

As much as you think you're a Christian, you're in an apostate version of Christianity, unfortunately for you. Now stop bothering me when I post and leave me be. It's evident that you lack knowledge and understanding of the most fundamental things and the most important things.

For example, when I write "united" then you start talking about how I am preaching something not taught by Christ. As if the word "united" means "saved". Some people don't know the definition of words, and are definitely blinded to the meaning and importance of words. Yet they are taking me to school, while they are in deep darkness.

Also, your attacks against the KJV as being nothing special also reveal a lack of knowledge and understanding. I would speak on them, but those words would be wasted along with my time and energy. Please, just leave me alone. I find interacting with you to be less pleasant than even talking to atheists like ConEx.
Misko_Varesanovic wrote:
November 27th, 2017, 10:09 pm
Winston wrote:
November 14th, 2017, 1:12 pm
MrMan wrote:Winston, you often right about how things seem off in the US, like it's sucking the life out of you. But you'll write that about other places, too. Could it be that things have just been 'off' since you got away from Christ?
No i only write that about USA, canada and rich asian island nations like taiwan, hong kong and singapore. But the majority of countries in the world are not like that. They are more socially open and down to earth. So your assumption is off.

Evolving to higher spirituality is not a mistake. Transcending organized religion is ascension to higher consciousness, closer to God. You got things backward buddy.
Hi there Winston,
I hope that this post finds you in excellent spirits, and that you are having a great day.

I read some of your writing on the subject of religion and I found it very insightful.

I would be genuinely interested to know your thoughts on the Christian fundamentalist/evangelical movement in the US, specifically:

1. Why is there such a disconnect between the teachings of Jesus and so much of what evangelicals preach? For example, Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple and warned us against judging others too harshly lest we be judged ourselves, while evangelical churches seem to be obsessed with material worldly gain and looking down fiercely on out-groups of almost any kind. I don't know if you have heard the song 'Jesus He Knows Me' by Genesis, but as a parody it seems to be pretty accurate.



2. Why is Christian fundamentalism so anti-spiritual? At the end of the day, rules and regulations are necessary, but alone these cannot sustain humans, and they must know this. It is almost as if some of these churches actively discourage any deeper metaphysical thought. I understand that this may be a successful short-term control mechanism, but especially in the age of the Internet I would have thought this approach was unsustainable. Won't most people just tune out after a while?
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 28th, 2017, 4:29 pm

MrMan wrote:
November 28th, 2017, 3:58 am

Peter did this. He preached repentance:
Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
See, these apostate Christians don't know somehow. If you're repenting of your sin, how can you be saved on that same day? It just makes no sense. Yet to them, in their confusion and blindness, they can believe things that are simply not possible, if you know what words actually mean.

These people even delude themselves into thinking that repentance from sins is not work, when by definition repentance from sin is turning from sin to keep the law. This is the level of blindness among many of the apostate Christians. Some of them are so locked into this that even advising them of the truth does them no good.

Because they somehow really do believe that:
1. They must repent from sin to be saved (you must only repent of UNBELIEF).
2. Repentance from sins isn't work (Repentance from sin is turning from sin, or stopping sin, and then keeping the commandments).
3. They can add to the complete and finished work of Christ (They believe Christ's work is incomplete and that they save themselves).

See, they don't really believe in Christ. People who believe in faith + repentance only believe in themselves. They have not put full trust in the Lord. They trust in their own works of righteousness, which are not able to get them into heaven. A person must be completely sinless their entire lives from birth for salvation to be by works, and the only One capable of doing such is Christ, which is why He came to earth: to fulfill the law and overcome it for those who would believe in Him, and then He died for our sins.

Surely they cannot see even John 3:15-16, where it says that Christ came to save all those who believe in Him. And if you look at the multitude of scriptures it is clear that salvation is by faith alone, that it is a free gift, and that it can't be lost for any reason (because it is without works and a free gift).

The only repentance necessary is not the repentance from sins, which is work without a shadow of a doubt (and anyone who says repentance from sin is NOT work is a person who is so deep in darkness that they should stop speaking for their own sake); it is repentance from UNBELIEF. Change your mind to believe in Christ and put full trust in the Lord.

Christ's work is complete. It cannot be added to. If we could save ourselves by doing good or turning from sin, there would have been no need for Him to do His work to save us.

These people really do believe their repentance is on par with Christ's work of keeping the whole law. These people don't know that they have elevated themselves to being equal with Christ. Because it is not just Christ that saves them, but also them themselves. Such foolishness.

And that really explains why such Christians lack fundamental knowledge of the most important things. Just blind and confused, yet always contending against the real gospel in favor of a false gospel. This is just astonishing really, but intensely infuriating at the same time.

If I were a false prophet, I would stop my mouth immediately, because preaching damnable heresy is not good for a person's soul.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 28th, 2017, 4:51 pm

Luke 24
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Repentance of mind to believe the gospel is what grants remission of sins.

Acts 10:43 KJV
[43] To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

When a person believes they have repented of unbelief (or whatever they believed in before) to believe the gospel. It is not repentance from sin that saves.
Peter also preached repentance here.
Acts 3:19
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Repent and be converted essentially means "Believe the gospel and be saved."
Peter urged Simon to repent of his wicked thought he expressed to buy a gift of God.
Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Well if you know the story, even before the man committed wickedness by his request to purchase the ability to work miracles, HE WAS ALREADY SAVED.

Acts 8:13
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

This man was already saved, if you know what salvation is. Of course he still has to repent of evil, but he was already saved. Once again proving that salvation is not about repentance from sin.
This expresses the understanding of the word 'repentance' early Christians in the Jerusalem church had:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Actually it only reveals your complete lack of understanding of salvation.
Paul pointed out Gentile idolatry and told them to repent, before telling his audience about Jesus.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
I see no reference to this repentance granting everlasting life, eternal life, life of any kind. This is not a salvation verse (and in fact, none of these verses are; yet somehow in your mind they are all about salvation, when it's not even written anywhere).

Does it say that God commands every man to repent of sins to be saved? NO IT DOESN'T!
Here Paul describes his preaching:
Acts 26:20-21
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
I see no reference to this repentance granting everlasting life, eternal life, life of any kind. This is not a salvation verse (and in fact, none of these verses are; yet somehow in your mind they are all about salvation, when it's not even written anywhere).
Paul apparently believed that believing in Jesus had some implications for the individual's behavior. Jesus said we would know a tree by its fruit
.

That's because you seem to think that believe means more than believe, when believe just means believe. There is no implication for their behavior whatsoever. A believer can still commit sin unto death and God can take their life early for it, but their soul will be preserved and remain saved and they go straight to heaven upon death.
Notice the contrast between perishing and coming to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If a person doesn't believe the gospel, that person will perish. Does it say repent from sins to be saved anywhere? No. Because there are two kinds of repentance but for some reason people only think there is one. And even that one type of repentance which they (think they) know, somehow they don't think that is works based when obviously repentance from sin is definitely work.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Winston » December 2nd, 2017, 10:09 am

Below a Christian truther explains why the king james bible is a good translation but not a perfect one. He plays a clip from Dr. Michael Heiser, the world authority on the subject because hes the only academic scholar in the world who has checked every word of the KJV with the original hebrew/aramaic/greek text it was translated from. You can hear what Dr Heiser says on this subject to put it in context.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Winston » December 2nd, 2017, 11:08 am

Misko_Varesanovic wrote:
November 27th, 2017, 10:09 pm
Hi there Winston,
I hope that this post finds you in excellent spirits, and that you are having a great day.

I read some of your writing on the subject of religion and I found it very insightful.

I would be genuinely interested to know your thoughts on the Christian fundamentalist/evangelical movement in the US, specifically:

1. Why is there such a disconnect between the teachings of Jesus and so much of what evangelicals preach? For example, Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple and warned us against judging others too harshly lest we be judged ourselves, while evangelical churches seem to be obsessed with material worldly gain and looking down fiercely on out-groups of almost any kind. I don't know if you have heard the song 'Jesus He Knows Me' by Genesis, but as a parody it seems to be pretty accurate.



2. Why is Christian fundamentalism so anti-spiritual? At the end of the day, rules and regulations are necessary, but alone these cannot sustain humans, and they must know this. It is almost as if some of these churches actively discourage any deeper metaphysical thought. I understand that this may be a successful short-term control mechanism, but especially in the age of the Internet I would have thought this approach was unsustainable. Won't most people just tune out after a while?
Thanks for asking but im not exactly having a great day. Lol.

Well the answer is that Jesus preached similar things to Buddha and was trying to wake people up. But others perverted his message and turned it into a control system useful to the elite. Paul changed Jesus' teachings into an organized religion and church. Then the Romans formalized it into an official government religion and mixed paganism in with it, as well as Roman festivals such as saturnalia, which celebrated Saturn, into Christmas. The powers that be tend to do that. They take something good and twist it into a control system.

Theres a saying: "Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist." It means these founders would not agree with the organized religious forms of their teachings today, which do not liberate people but merely put them from one control system to another. New age is now like that too. They also serve to pacify people into nonviolence so they dont threaten the structure.

You should read thomas paines book "the age of reason". It explains how Christianity was perverted and is very eloquent. People in the past were smarter and had a wider range of vocabulary because they didnt have TV to dumb them down. Also read robert ingersoll.

Most objective truthers today hold this same view about how Christianity became perverted for political and social control.

As to the second question, well yeah some basic rules are necessary. But if your heart is with God and you are virtuous and have a strong conscience then you dont need them. Even americas founding fathers like john adams said the US Constitution can only work with a moral and virtuous God fearing people. Not with a wicked population.

However nothing in extreme is any good. Too many rules make one uptight and lose sight of their purpose. Some people though are very empty and need to be guided by rules. They need structure and routine and be told what to do. Especially Asians. They do not know how to be free.

Of course people see through religion after a while. Thats why religion is at an all time low. And church attendance is at an all time low now. Christianity has lost its popularity and very few people go to church anymore. Especially in Europe. All so called revivals are short term only and do not truly fulfill. The world has evolved beyond black and white beliefs. Even movies have. There are no more absolute categories like good guys vs bad guys nowadays.

Even the facade of the new age movement loses effect after a while when people see through its BS and fake claims.

Truth is a constant search. It is not a package or final destination. Its something you gotta keep digging for. To keep searching for truth you gotta be skeptical of all sides, including your own beliefs. Religion contains some truth but it contains lies too. Its a mix of truth and lies. Its not perfect and not the final ultimate truth.

You may never have absolute truth. The important thing is to have meaning and purpose in life. And passion too if possible. That's what keeps you going and inspired.

Thats my take on it. Hope that helps.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » December 2nd, 2017, 8:36 pm

Winston wrote:
December 2nd, 2017, 11:08 am
Thanks for asking but im not exactly having a great day. Lol.

Well the answer is that Jesus preached similar things to Buddha and was trying to wake people up. But others perverted his message and turned it into a control system useful to the elite. Paul changed Jesus' teachings into an organized religion and church. Then the Romans formalized it into an official government religion and mixed paganism in with it, as well as Roman festivals such as saturnalia, which celebrated Saturn, into Christmas. The powers that be tend to do that. They take something good and twist it into a control system.

Theres a saying: "Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist." It means these founders would not agree with the organized religious forms of their teachings today, which do not liberate people but merely put them from one control system to another. New age is now like that too. They also serve to pacify people into nonviolence so they dont threaten the structure.

You should read thomas paines book "the age of reason". It explains how Christianity was perverted and is very eloquent. People in the past were smarter and had a wider range of vocabulary because they didnt have TV to dumb them down. Also read robert ingersoll.

Most objective truthers today hold this same view about how Christianity became perverted for political and social control.

As to the second question, well yeah some basic rules are necessary. But if your heart is with God and you are virtuous and have a strong conscience then you dont need them. Even americas founding fathers like john adams said the US Constitution can only work with a moral and virtuous God fearing people. Not with a wicked population.

However nothing in extreme is any good. Too many rules make one uptight and lose sight of their purpose. Some people though are very empty and need to be guided by rules. They need structure and routine and be told what to do. Especially Asians. They do not know how to be free.

Of course people see through religion after a while. Thats why religion is at an all time low. And church attendance is at an all time low now. Christianity has lost its popularity and very few people go to church anymore. Especially in Europe. All so called revivals are short term only and do not truly fulfill. The world has evolved beyond black and white beliefs. Even movies have. There are no more absolute categories like good guys vs bad guys nowadays.

Even the facade of the new age movement loses effect after a while when people see through its BS and fake claims.

Truth is a constant search. It is not a package or final destination. Its something you gotta keep digging for. To keep searching for truth you gotta be skeptical of all sides, including your own beliefs. Religion contains some truth but it contains lies too. Its a mix of truth and lies. Its not perfect and not the final ultimate truth.

You may never have absolute truth. The important thing is to have meaning and purpose in life. And passion too if possible. That's what keeps you going and inspired.

Thats my take on it. Hope that helps.
As to the second question, well yeah some basic rules are necessary. But if your heart is with God and you are virtuous and have a strong conscience then you dont need them. Even americas founding fathers like john adams said the US Constitution can only work with a moral and virtuous God fearing people. Not with a wicked population.

However nothing in extreme is any good. Too many rules make one uptight and lose sight of their purpose. Some people though are very empty and need to be guided by rules. They need structure and routine and be told what to do. Especially Asians. They do not know how to be free.


Basically you're saying that people can be close to God and do His will while forsaking the law, which of course is not true at all. In order to do God's will a person must know His law. Otherwise they are just doing their own will, according to what they think is right, not knowing that in many places they are probably dead wrong to their own detriment. All because they figured their own counsel and wisdom must be equal to God's.

And how is a person going to be virtuous and or have a strong conscience if they don't know God's rules? They are walking in the paths that they think is just, not what God says. How so? Because they've regarded not to bother to figure out what God has to say on the matter. Trusting instead on their own counsel, wisdom, and understanding, which are not righteous according to God. In fact the argument could be made by some that this is self-willed idolatry and rebellion disguised under a cloak of doing righteousness.

Satanic doctrine has a similar teaching: Do what thou wilt. Or do whatever you feel like doing, follow your own conscience, will, counsel, understand and rules. That's to make yourself a god to yourself.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » December 2nd, 2017, 8:51 pm

Winston wrote:
December 2nd, 2017, 10:09 am
Below a Christian truther explains why the king james bible is a good translation but not a perfect one. He plays a clip from Dr. Michael Heiser, the world authority on the subject because hes the only academic scholar in the world who has checked every word of the KJV with the original hebrew/aramaic/greek text it was translated from. You can hear what Dr Heiser says on this subject to put it in context.

I'm going to tell you right now, that not just any believer who knows multiple languages is qualified to translate the Bible. The person must intimately know as far deep as it goes, every doctrine which God is trying to convey to the readers.

Why? Because I can see that in some translations, the meaning is obviously not understood by the translators. Thereby the whole reasoning of the passage is missed. So I can see, because the message is not there in that passage, that those translators really had no clue of the deep doctrine that God has prepared, because that doctrine is invisible to them. I know this because they missed it in the translation.

Like I said, just because you know a language and you think you know the Bible, it doesn't make you qualified to translate it. Only a few men who can absolutely do this properly can do this.

Because how are they going to miss whole meanings of the scripture with their mistranslations and then say it is from God?

For example, if it says that some food needs to be salted, and that the white of an egg has no taste, how is it that some other translators figure that something that has no taste and needs salt to be tasted must therefore be a marshmallow instead of an egg white? This is just basic stuff that is obvious if you know what the meaning of the passage is.

Another, when it says when men are cast down you will say there is lifting up, it means that when other people are suffering economic depression, God's still going to lift you up. But in other translations they miss the meaning of this entirely and therefore you're waiting to read the same meaning and you see, they did not understand it to translate it properly, even if they know what the words mean.

Not everyone is qualified.

That's why people who don't know anything despite the King James. The KJV is deep. These people have not perceived any of the depth of the KJV, which is why they disregard it. I can see from the other Bibles that the translators did not understand. It's like a mystery to them. And if you are to read their Bibles, how can you understand the truth?
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Misko_Varesanovic » December 2nd, 2017, 10:03 pm

Winston wrote:
December 2nd, 2017, 11:08 am
Misko_Varesanovic wrote:
November 27th, 2017, 10:09 pm
Hi there Winston,
I hope that this post finds you in excellent spirits, and that you are having a great day.

I read some of your writing on the subject of religion and I found it very insightful.

I would be genuinely interested to know your thoughts on the Christian fundamentalist/evangelical movement in the US, specifically:

1. Why is there such a disconnect between the teachings of Jesus and so much of what evangelicals preach? For example, Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple and warned us against judging others too harshly lest we be judged ourselves, while evangelical churches seem to be obsessed with material worldly gain and looking down fiercely on out-groups of almost any kind. I don't know if you have heard the song 'Jesus He Knows Me' by Genesis, but as a parody it seems to be pretty accurate.



2. Why is Christian fundamentalism so anti-spiritual? At the end of the day, rules and regulations are necessary, but alone these cannot sustain humans, and they must know this. It is almost as if some of these churches actively discourage any deeper metaphysical thought. I understand that this may be a successful short-term control mechanism, but especially in the age of the Internet I would have thought this approach was unsustainable. Won't most people just tune out after a while?
Thanks for asking but im not exactly having a great day. Lol.

Well the answer is that Jesus preached similar things to Buddha and was trying to wake people up. But others perverted his message and turned it into a control system useful to the elite. Paul changed Jesus' teachings into an organized religion and church. Then the Romans formalized it into an official government religion and mixed paganism in with it, as well as Roman festivals such as saturnalia, which celebrated Saturn, into Christmas. The powers that be tend to do that. They take something good and twist it into a control system.

Theres a saying: "Jesus was not a Christian and Buddha was not a Buddhist." It means these founders would not agree with the organized religious forms of their teachings today, which do not liberate people but merely put them from one control system to another. New age is now like that too. They also serve to pacify people into nonviolence so they dont threaten the structure.

You should read thomas paines book "the age of reason". It explains how Christianity was perverted and is very eloquent. People in the past were smarter and had a wider range of vocabulary because they didnt have TV to dumb them down. Also read robert ingersoll.

Most objective truthers today hold this same view about how Christianity became perverted for political and social control.

As to the second question, well yeah some basic rules are necessary. But if your heart is with God and you are virtuous and have a strong conscience then you dont need them. Even americas founding fathers like john adams said the US Constitution can only work with a moral and virtuous God fearing people. Not with a wicked population.

However nothing in extreme is any good. Too many rules make one uptight and lose sight of their purpose. Some people though are very empty and need to be guided by rules. They need structure and routine and be told what to do. Especially Asians. They do not know how to be free.

Of course people see through religion after a while. Thats why religion is at an all time low. And church attendance is at an all time low now. Christianity has lost its popularity and very few people go to church anymore. Especially in Europe. All so called revivals are short term only and do not truly fulfill. The world has evolved beyond black and white beliefs. Even movies have. There are no more absolute categories like good guys vs bad guys nowadays.

Even the facade of the new age movement loses effect after a while when people see through its BS and fake claims.

Truth is a constant search. It is not a package or final destination. Its something you gotta keep digging for. To keep searching for truth you gotta be skeptical of all sides, including your own beliefs. Religion contains some truth but it contains lies too. Its a mix of truth and lies. Its not perfect and not the final ultimate truth.

You may never have absolute truth. The important thing is to have meaning and purpose in life. And passion too if possible. That's what keeps you going and inspired.

Thats my take on it. Hope that helps.
Hey there Winston,
Firstly, thank you very much indeed for taking the time and trouble to respond so comprehensively to my questions. This is sincerely appreciated!

With regard to the first question, I guess what I find truly mystifying is why American evangelists are so pro-war, especially when compared to their counterparts in Europe or Latin America, or the Protestant state churches in Europe. I cannot conceive of how non-defensive wars which effectively target civilians several thousand miles away can be justified according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Just typing about it is mind-blowing.

Additionally, your cultural criticism is very interesting. It's true that things have got slightly more blurry recently. I wonder how long this trend will last - humanity seems to have an innate need for clarity and heroism, but perhaps, as you say, their reading of these concepts has become more sophisticated, more decadent, or both.

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