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There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Contrarian Expatriate
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » November 10th, 2017, 11:42 am

TruthSeeker wrote:
Adama wrote:BELIEVE
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Christians actually belive in 3 gods, the father, the son, and the holy ghost. However, they try to rationalize away the lie that they believe in one god by calling it a Trinity which is three in one!

This double speak is emblematic of Christianity. There is one god, but there are really three, but fused together we can consider them a single god in the form of Trinity :lol:




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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 4:42 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
Adama wrote:BELIEVE
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

1. Faith without works is dead. This is not about salvation, but rather is about helping other Christians who are in need. Instead of simply giving them a blessing, we need to show them our faith by helping them. Read in context it becomes clear:

James 2
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee
my faith by my works.

If you read carefully, James 2 actually verifies that faith without works is the only way to be saved by three verses, which nullifies any counterargument:

James 2
[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[5] Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

So it is clear it is faith that saves, not works, even from James 2. Don't be deceived into works salvation.

2. Salvation is for man, not for angels. Angels do not have the plan of salvation that men do. They are not men and they are not made in God's image. The angels who became devils destroyed themselves by rising up out of their place (Jude and 2 Peter 2). There is no Believe to be saved for angels. They knew Christ and lived in His presence daily.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 4:54 pm

MrMan wrote:
Adama wrote: The thing that unites them is their faith in Christ and the KJV Bible.
That last bit was just plain weird. The apostles didn't have faith in the 'KJV Bible.' Neither did any Christians before about 1611. Are the apostles united with you in your faith?

KJV-onlyism is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'
The apostles knew Christ personally. Christ is the Word of God in the flesh. So the question really is moot.

As for the Christians before 1611, as you know, before the Protestant Reformation and the rest, Bibles were not always allowed to be possessed by commoners. The religious leaders of that time didn't want people teaching their children the Bible. They wanted them learning what they wanted them to learn, and to be deceived.

The thing that unites Christians of today is their faith in Christ and their belief in the Word of God and that His Word is true. Many "Christians" do not believe the Bible which means they don't really believe (or know) much of what God has said.

Also, it's quite interesting that, while this atheist has tried to slander Christianity you remained silent. But praise the Word of God in English, the KJV, and that's when you reply.

By the way, I didn't say faith in the KJV saves. Faith in Christ saves. The KJV is what unites many American Christians. Most saved people who've read the different Bibles eventually come to the realization of the superiority of the KJV. Every other Bible is a poor imitation. This is the part that bothers you about it.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by TruthSeeker » November 10th, 2017, 5:14 pm

Yeah but that Scripture verse says the devils believe. So are they saved? You said all you have to do is believe. I think it's more than that. You need true repentance and a lifestyle that is consistent with the teachings of Christ.

You can't just believe and then do whatever you want and expect to get to heaven.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 5:22 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:Yeah but that Scripture verse says the devils believe. So are they saved? You said all you have to do is believe. I think it's more than that. You need true repentance and a lifestyle that is consistent with the teachings of Christ.

You can't just believe and then do whatever you want and expect to get to heaven.

Do you realize that angels were not created in God's image? That they were always in the presence of Christ? Did Christ manifest Himself as an angel to save them from their sins? Salvation is for mankind. If the angels have salvation, God hasn't spoken of it. It is a different matter altogether.

As far is this is concerned, this is all I have to say on the matter. So either you understand this by now or you don't.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 5:47 pm

The saved can still sin, but they may receive earthly punishment in the form of premature/earlier death (younger age), disease and ailments, and decreased rewards in heaven. Their souls remain saved because, there's no point in getting saved if you can lose salvation. What would be the whole point if a person had to keep himself saved? Has this person become a god now that he got saved? No, it just means the righteousness of Christ is imputed onto their soul, making them worthy of entering into eternal life where there will be no sin.

The penalty for sin is death.

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The pursuit of evil leads to premature death:

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by MrMan » November 10th, 2017, 5:57 pm

Adama wrote:
MrMan wrote:
Adama wrote: The thing that unites them is their faith in Christ and the KJV Bible.
That last bit was just plain weird. The apostles didn't have faith in the 'KJV Bible.' Neither did any Christians before about 1611. Are the apostles united with you in your faith?

KJV-onlyism is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'
The apostles knew Christ personally. Christ is the Word of God in the flesh. So the question really is moot.

As for the Christians before 1611, as you know, before the Protestant Reformation and the rest, Bibles were not always allowed to be possessed by commoners. The religious leaders of that time didn't want people teaching their children the Bible. They wanted them learning what they wanted them to learn, and to be deceived.

The thing that unites Christians of today is their faith in Christ and their belief in the Word of God and that His Word is true. Many "Christians" do not believe the Bible which means they don't really believe (or know) much of what God has said.

Also, it's quite interesting that, while this atheist has tried to slander Christianity you remained silent. But praise the Word of God in English, the KJV, and that's when you reply.

By the way, I didn't say faith in the KJV saves. Faith in Christ saves. The KJV is what unites many American Christians. Most saved people who've read the different Bibles eventually come to the realization of the superiority of the KJV. Every other Bible is a poor imitation. This is the part that bothers you about it.
Adama,

I've posted in the historicity of Jesus thread already. And I've posted a number of other posts elsewhere that you apparently ignore. I saw you post a screwball doctrine while talking about salvation, a doctrine Jesus and the apostles did not teach. You should thank me for pointing that out. Why would you believe a doctrine that was not a part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.' The apostles did not use the KJV.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 6:20 pm

MrMan wrote:
Adama wrote:
MrMan wrote:
Adama wrote: The thing that unites them is their faith in Christ and the KJV Bible.
That last bit was just plain weird. The apostles didn't have faith in the 'KJV Bible.' Neither did any Christians before about 1611. Are the apostles united with you in your faith?

KJV-onlyism is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'
The apostles knew Christ personally. Christ is the Word of God in the flesh. So the question really is moot.

As for the Christians before 1611, as you know, before the Protestant Reformation and the rest, Bibles were not always allowed to be possessed by commoners. The religious leaders of that time didn't want people teaching their children the Bible. They wanted them learning what they wanted them to learn, and to be deceived.

The thing that unites Christians of today is their faith in Christ and their belief in the Word of God and that His Word is true. Many "Christians" do not believe the Bible which means they don't really believe (or know) much of what God has said.

Also, it's quite interesting that, while this atheist has tried to slander Christianity you remained silent. But praise the Word of God in English, the KJV, and that's when you reply.

By the way, I didn't say faith in the KJV saves. Faith in Christ saves. The KJV is what unites many American Christians. Most saved people who've read the different Bibles eventually come to the realization of the superiority of the KJV. Every other Bible is a poor imitation. This is the part that bothers you about it.
Adama,

I've posted in the historicity of Jesus thread already. And I've posted a number of other posts elsewhere that you apparently ignore. I saw you post a screwball doctrine while talking about salvation, a doctrine Jesus and the apostles did not teach. You should thank me for pointing that out. Why would you believe a doctrine that was not a part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.' The apostles did not use the KJV.
Aha, now what doctrine is that which I preached which Christ did not? That is a mighty railing. Do you mean when I said the American Christians are united by the KJV? I didn't say a person gets saved by the KJV (although the verses that were used probably were from the KJV). It isn't the KJV that saves. It is faith/belief in Christ. That is and never was unclear, except maybe to those who think along the lines which you do.

All I was saying is that using the KJV is what unites most American Christians , as most of those people who are NOT using the KJV are probably not true Christians, which is the heart of the matter here, although there are some true believers who don't use the KJV by their choice, most are using the KJV. Because true Christians will eventually realize just by reading how superior the KJV is.

Anyone who can read what I wrote can see it. I was not preaching faith by KJV. You just have a gripe with the KJV. I would suggest you leave me alone from that hassle.

Yup, that's the whole problem isn't it? Some people dislike the KJV. Well most saved Christians are using the KJV. And most of the false, unsaved Christians are using the other English versions. That is because those other versions have verses which can more easily deceive someone into a works based false doctrine (adding works through the side door, through doctrine never mentioned in the KJV). And that is the whole reason why false Christians love the false versions. They preach another gospel according to their false Christianity. And the KJV does not support their false doctrine, which is why most of the unbelieving Christians hate the KJV.

Anyone indwelled with the Holy Spirit can put Bibles side by side to read them and see which one is superior. Just as any saved person can read Enoch and see that is a fraud and contrary to the Bible, which is why it isn't included in the KJV.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 6:47 pm

MrMan wrote:
Adama wrote:
MrMan wrote:
Adama wrote: The thing that unites them is their faith in Christ and the KJV Bible.
That last bit was just plain weird. The apostles didn't have faith in the 'KJV Bible.' Neither did any Christians before about 1611. Are the apostles united with you in your faith?

KJV-onlyism is not part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'
The apostles knew Christ personally. Christ is the Word of God in the flesh. So the question really is moot.

As for the Christians before 1611, as you know, before the Protestant Reformation and the rest, Bibles were not always allowed to be possessed by commoners. The religious leaders of that time didn't want people teaching their children the Bible. They wanted them learning what they wanted them to learn, and to be deceived.

The thing that unites Christians of today is their faith in Christ and their belief in the Word of God and that His Word is true. Many "Christians" do not believe the Bible which means they don't really believe (or know) much of what God has said.

Also, it's quite interesting that, while this atheist has tried to slander Christianity you remained silent. But praise the Word of God in English, the KJV, and that's when you reply.

By the way, I didn't say faith in the KJV saves. Faith in Christ saves. The KJV is what unites many American Christians. Most saved people who've read the different Bibles eventually come to the realization of the superiority of the KJV. Every other Bible is a poor imitation. This is the part that bothers you about it.
Adama,

I've posted in the historicity of Jesus thread already. And I've posted a number of other posts elsewhere that you apparently ignore. I saw you post a screwball doctrine while talking about salvation, a doctrine Jesus and the apostles did not teach. You should thank me for pointing that out. Why would you believe a doctrine that was not a part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints.' The apostles did not use the KJV.
That's funny. You're accusing me of teaching falsehood, and declaring that I should choose my words more carefully. But if a person mistakenly accuses someone of a crime because of their own bias and lack of understanding (especially the crime of preaching lies), it is probably the accuser who should choose his own words more carefully, rather than swiftly running to execute judgment.

That's like condemning the innocent and the righteous blood. That doesn't sound good to me at all. That sounds like a real crime to me.

And MrMan, as much as ConEx has been my adversary according to Christ, have you not also opposed me when I open my mouth for God? Whose side are you on? If you work as an adversary, or if you make accusation and give hassle, whose team are you on? What exactly are you doing if you do these against me for what I say?

And does it occur to you that my understanding might be far deeper than yours, and yet you oppose me while not recognizing the depth of the matter?

At every turn, there is MrMan, seemingly opposing me. Just as I see ConEx, I also see MrMan.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Cornfed » November 10th, 2017, 8:00 pm

James says otherwise.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 10th, 2017, 9:25 pm

James 2 is a stumbling block. It is a snare which will take many down to death, but all those who believe in Christ will not be confounded, and neither will they fall prey to it.

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For many people, James 2 isn't their only stumbling block, however. The multitude of verses declare salvation is by faith alone or by simply believing. Then they are confounded by two or three verses that SEEM to say otherwise, because they are confused.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by MrMan » November 11th, 2017, 5:51 am

Adama wrote: As for the Christians before 1611, as you know, before the Protestant Reformation and the rest, Bibles were not always allowed to be possessed by commoners. The religious leaders of that time didn't want people teaching their children the Bible. They wanted them learning what they wanted them to learn, and to be deceived.
So in English, they came up with different translations of the Bible. And in King James' time, they had a pretty decent translation called the Geneva Bible, but it came with notes that King James did not like because it had an anti-monarchial spin in the notes. The Bishop's Bible had some problems, but the less 'Reformed' component in the Anglican church used that. So King James wanted to come up with another translation that could be the official translation that both sides could agree on, and he put together a team of scholars.

I actually like the KJV. I've done most of my memorization out of it. I was a Bible quizzer, and we memorized books of the Bible out of the KJV when I was teen. I do like the rhythm. And overall, I think it is a pretty good translation, though it misses it in points. Calling Passover 'Easter' in as an example. Or taking a word that would elsewhere be translated 'reproach' and translating it as 'cast the same in his teeth'--maybe not a bad translation, but using an idiom that did not endure the test of time. The KJV also uses 'armholes' for 'elbows' in places. That may have been fine in 1611, but it is archaic, along with a lot of the grammar, and difficult for the uninitiated to understand.

I don't know how much of the KJV is lifted word for word from the Geneva Bible translation, but I did get a chance to spend a bit of time with the Geneva Bible in a college library once, and I remember that at least the first part of Matthew 10 is taken word for word from the Geneva Bible. Since it wasn't a legal copyright issue, that is nothing wrong with that. One of the problems we have nowadays with Bible translation is copyright, where new translators may stay away from the best translation of a verse because the best translations have been used. So they use bad grammar or less-than-ideal translation to make their translation copyrightable and non-actionable in court.
The thing that unites Christians of today is their faith in Christ and their belief in the Word of God and that His Word is true. Many "Christians" do not believe the Bible which means they don't really believe (or know) much of what God has said.
The Bible is written in Greek and Hebrew, and a little Aramaic. The idea that the KJV is an inspired was not taught by Jesus or the apostles. There are some Christians that believe that way, bless their hearts. If one of these people on this forum are led to Christ by someone using the NKJV or ESV, for example, and they read that, would you be in favor of their being discipled using the NKJV or ESV?
Also, it's quite interesting that, while this atheist has tried to slander Christianity you remained silent. But praise the Word of God in English, the KJV, and that's when you reply.
I don't join in every conversation here, but I have joined in plenty of them and shared my faith. I am not sure about what conversation you are talking about because I don't read all the threads. You could probably go back in whatever thread your reading and find a post or posts from me. After I've said what I want to say, I often just don't read atheist rants anymore, if the conversation isn't going anywhere. I am very much pro-Word-of-God. Are you in favor of someone hearing the word of God if they are listening to the NKJV? I am not against the KJV. Are you against the word of God when people come into contact with it in other translations?

I live in a country where most people don't speak English. They have their own translations in their own languages. Can they hear and believe the word of God without learning 17th century English?
By the way, I didn't say faith in the KJV saves. Faith in Christ saves. The KJV is what unites many American Christians. Most saved people who've read the different Bibles eventually come to the realization of the superiority of the KJV.
I don't have any statistics, but I would definitely disagree with that. A lot of Christians have moved away from the KVJ to translations written in their own language. If you are sharing your faith out the KJV, you basically have to translation your translation after you've given it. Most people who weren't familiar with the KJV were really confused reading Shakespere in high school and don't understand what the 'eth's mean. You can tell when they try to sound Shakesperean, the put the endings in the wrong place. The ads that use it get it wrong.
Every other Bible is a poor imitation. This is the part that bothers you about it.
That's silly. The KJV lifts portions right out of the Geneva Bible. Is the KJV an immitation, then? Open up to Genesis 1 and see how many verses they copied on the first page and what kind of changes they made.

Some of the early Christians like Greek-speaking Jews at that time believed the LXX translation was inspired. But at least they had a reason for it. There was a tradition than 70 elders working independantly had translated it the same way, the first five books, at least. Is there any reason to think the KJV is an inspired translation? If you take the whole KJV as inspired, you should look at the dedication to the king which indicates that other translations are valuable as well.

KJV onlyism can lead to some weird doctrine, like basing doctrines on the turn of phrase the KJV translators used, or saying Timothy was a bishop rather than an evangelist or apostle type figure, because the tanslators put 'bishop' in the title even though it wasn't in the letter.

I am glad you are zealous for defending the faith and spreading the Gospel. But KJV-onlyism isn't a part of it.

If you want to do PM's, I'd rather have these types of discussions through PMs.

od. That doesn't sound good to me at all. That sounds like a real crime to me.

And MrMan, as much as ConEx has been my adversary according to Christ, have you not also opposed me when I open my mouth for God? Whose side are you on? If you work as an adversary, or if you make accusation and give hassle, whose team are you on? What exactly are you doing if you do these against me for what I say?

And does it occur to you that my understanding might be far deeper than yours, and yet you oppose me while not recognizing the depth of the matter?
And MrMan, as much as ConEx has been my adversary according to Christ, have you not also opposed me when I open my mouth for God? Whose side are you on? If you work as an adversary, or if you make accusation and give hassle, whose team are you on? What exactly are you doing if you do these against me for what I say?
I don't consider you my adversary or opponent. I think you have a lot of really good things to say, and I appreciate your zeal. But you also have a few weird ideas and a tendency at times toward the melodramatic, like here. The KJV-onlyism, for example, can detract from the Gospel. It's okay if some of these people get saved outside of a Independant Baptist church, too, and don't go the KJV-only route.

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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Winston » November 11th, 2017, 7:05 am

That video of the brainwashed kids was nostalgic. It reminded me of the time i was a Christian in my youth. The gospel gave me something to live for amidst the chaos of american life.

Here is a site to help recovering fundamentalists.

http://www.howtorecoverfromfundamentalism.com

It defines fundamentalistm as:

"DEFINITIONS: WHAT ARE FUNDAMENTALISM AND EVANGELICALISM?

“Fundamentalism,” according to Webster, refers to “a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching.” Evangelicalism is another face of Protestant fundamentalism.

I think of evangelicalism as “the glass is half full,” while fundamentalism is “the glass is half empty.” Same glass. Evangelicalism has the smile, where fundamentalism has the frown. Evangelicalism may or may not extend itself to certain social justice issues.

When one has a fundamentalist point of view, anything contrary to a literally interpreted Bible is unacceptable. The world is seen as black-and-white, and people are divided into the white sheep and the black sheep, the believers and the non-believers. Many people are convinced and comforted with this simplistic sort of worldview. Others struggle with their faith and may outgrow their fundamentalist group."
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 11th, 2017, 11:52 am

MrMan, you apparently have no idea of the gravity of this situation. You think this is a light thing, yet, if you memorized large portions of the Bible, you must have missed the meaning of much of it. I will attempt to explain to you what you might have done here. And it is my belief that you are better off remaining silent from now on, because you desperately lack consideration for your own soul due to lack of knowledge.
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Re: There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

Post by Adama » November 11th, 2017, 12:20 pm

Winston wrote:That video of the brainwashed kids was nostalgic. It reminded me of the time i was a Christian in my youth. The gospel gave me something to live for amidst the chaos of american life.

Here is a site to help recovering fundamentalists.

http://www.howtorecoverfromfundamentalism.com

It defines fundamentalistm as:

"DEFINITIONS: WHAT ARE FUNDAMENTALISM AND EVANGELICALISM?

“Fundamentalism,” according to Webster, refers to “a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching.” Evangelicalism is another face of Protestant fundamentalism.

I think of evangelicalism as “the glass is half full,” while fundamentalism is “the glass is half empty.” Same glass. Evangelicalism has the smile, where fundamentalism has the frown. Evangelicalism may or may not extend itself to certain social justice issues.

When one has a fundamentalist point of view, anything contrary to a literally interpreted Bible is unacceptable. The world is seen as black-and-white, and people are divided into the white sheep and the black sheep, the believers and the non-believers. Many people are convinced and comforted with this simplistic sort of worldview. Others struggle with their faith and may outgrow their fundamentalist group."

As for fundamentalism, a person might consider, that a house must be built upon a strong foundation. You can't build a house without a foundation if you expect it to survive any storm. Without the basics of language, a person would be unable to communicate.

The problem with fundamentalism is really that people don't want to be subject to God's law. It's just another complaint from the people who want to be free to live outside of the narrow way of life. Well broad is the path that leads to destruction. You can commit much more sin on the broad path. However, people who die on the broad path will not enter into eternal life. And those who love the broad path are at risk of never getting saved, and they too may miss out on eternal life, on God's new earth when He recreates the world and it will not have sin or death.

This life is only a moment compared to eternity. That's what unbelievers can't recognize. This isn't the home we were meant to have. Adam, Eve and Satan essentially destroyed the worthiness of this world. So it must be destroyed and created anew.

And all those who chose to believe in Christ have His righteousness imputed onto them. That means that will be sinless in eternity, and that makes them worthy to enter into eternal life, to live again on God's new sinless earth.

Because we all get a choice, whether we want eternal life or not, and all those who choose Christ are choosing eternal life. All those who refuse will not have their sins covered and righteousness will not be imputed onto their souls. Meaning they must enter everlasting punishment for their sins. Then they will not be able to go back to choose to believe, to get their sins covered.

So you can make fun of fundamentalism and fundamentalists, but you might consider, that pleasure of mocking that you magnify yourself by, might turn out to be regretful.

It's always so interesting to me. And I wonder if the remembrance of words spoken like this will wring and rack for eternity.
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