Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.



View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Mobile Friendly Theme


Why the Bible teaches a Salvation by WORKS, NOT Faith Alone!

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: fschmidt, jamesbond

TruthSeeker
Freshman Poster
Posts: 377
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 1:51 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by TruthSeeker » June 6th, 2018, 6:36 pm

As Winston would say you are getting into semantics.

Jesus said you would know them by their fruit (works).

Matthew 7
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So everyone who has genuine faith in Christ is going to bring forth good fruit which is good works. And someone who does not have genuine faith in Christ is not going to bring forth good fruit or good works. It's that simple.




Check out our Dating Sites and International Romance Tours!



User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Adama » June 6th, 2018, 6:50 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
June 6th, 2018, 10:51 am
The works themselves don't save but they are the evidence of a true faith.
If now you realize that works do not save the person, then you might have just gotten saved.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Adama » June 7th, 2018, 3:03 am

Congratulations, if you're saved now, TruthSeeker. Because presumably you now realize trusting in works is not salvation, faith in Christ alone is.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

TruthSeeker
Freshman Poster
Posts: 377
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 1:51 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by TruthSeeker » June 7th, 2018, 3:49 pm

Fortunately you are not the one who determines who is saved. It is God who determines that.

User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Adama » June 7th, 2018, 4:53 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
June 7th, 2018, 3:49 pm
Fortunately you are not the one who determines who is saved. It is God who determines that.
That is true. That is very fortunate. It sounds to me like you still believe a person is saved by works.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Adama » June 7th, 2018, 7:47 pm

Adama wrote:
June 5th, 2018, 9:47 pm
Grace means salvation is free by faith in Christ. Works means that a person is earning their salvation by doing good. The two cannot be combined. If a person is saved by their own works, they are earning their salvation. Therefore salvation is no longer free.

That is, by trusting in their own works, they have canceled out grace. Grace is free. Works are earning salvation. Either salvation is free or it is earned. It cannot be both free and earned. This is why works and grace cannot be combined.

Works are not for salvation.
@Winston, how do you answer this?
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27730
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Winston » June 8th, 2018, 11:54 am

Funny quotes by Mark Twain about heaven.

http://www.twainquotes.com/Heaven.html

"Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in."
- Mark Twain, a Biography

"Singing hymns and waving palm branches through all eternity is pretty when you hear about it in the pulpit, but it's as poor a way to put in valuable time as a body could contrive."
- Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven

I agree. That makes sense. God helps those he likes. It's subjective, just like we humans like some people and dislike others. Even the Greek Gods were all like that. They do not love everyone equally. We don't, so why should God? God is not a communist, but even communists do not love everyone equally. That's purely fictional ideology only, to appease the low IQ masses.

There's also another one where Twain says something like: "Men imagine that in heaven, they will sing praises to God on a harp while laying down in a grass meadow for all eternity. Yet in their earthly life, they wouldn't even do that for 5 minutes."

LOL HILARIOUS AND TRUE! LOLOLOLOLOL. But I can't find it for now.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27730
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Winston » June 8th, 2018, 12:44 pm

Here are many Bible verses, about 40, that say you have to keep the commandments and obey God and do "righteous works" to be saved and maintain your salvation, which is by works too, not just by faith alone. Apparently, Adama doesn't seem to know his Bible very well.


“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the LAW shall be justified!” (Romans 2:13)

“God will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by patient continuance in doing good, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger” (Romans 2:6-8)

“I (Paul) preached first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that ALL must repent of their sins and turn to God – proving they have repented by doing good WORKS” (Acts 26:20)

“Do you not know that the wicked will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the Kingdom of God” (I Corinthians 6:9-10)

“A man who already has gone through the Jewish ceremony of circumcision, before he became a Christian, shouldn’t worry about it; and if he hasn’t been circumcised, he shouldn’t do it now. It doesn’t make any difference at all whether a Christian has gone through this ceremony or not. But it makes a lot of difference whether he is pleasing God by keeping God’s commandments. THAT is the important thing!” (I Corinthians 7:18-19)

“And being made perfect, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him!” (Hebrews 5:9)

“If thou wilt enter into life, keep the Commandments … Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” (Matthew 19:16-21)

“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself … This DO, and thou shalt live” (Luke 10:25-28)

“Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother” (Luke 18:18-22)

“Go and make disciples of all nations … and teach them to OBEY everything I have commanded” (Matthew 28:19-20)

“I now realize God shows no favoritism, but He accepts from every nation the one who fears Him and DOES what is right” (Acts 10:34-35)

“Therefore we LABOR that we may be accepted of Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may be recompensed for the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad” (II Corinthians 5:9-10)

“For he (Jesus) whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: For God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that OBEYS not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:34-36)

“And hereby we do know that we know Him (God), if we KEEP His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (I John 2:3-4)

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31-32)

(Note that Jesus said that you have to CONTINUE in his word, in other words, maintain your salvation by following his teachings. If you were "once saved always saved" why would you have to continue in his word to be saved?)

“But in every nation he that feareth Him, and WORKETH righteousness, is accepted with Him” (Acts 10:35)

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye DOERS of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a DOER, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a DOER of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world” (James 1:21-27)

(As you can see, you have to be DOERS of the Word, not just believers of it.)

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by WORKS was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:17-26)

(As you can see, belief is not enough. Even the demons believe. WORKS are what justify a man, it says.)

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us” (Hebrews 12:1)

(Why would you have to "run the race" if you are saved forever? If you are saved forever then aren't you already at the finish line?)

“Therefore whoever heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it” (Matthew 7:24-27)

(Notice it doesn't say that believing alone will build a strong house and foundation, but that doing is required.)

“But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him, and His righteousness unto children’s children; to such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember His commandments to DO them” (Psalms 103:17-18)

“But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses” (I Timothy 6:11-12)

(The term "lay hold on eternal life" sounds like YOU have to hold onto your eternal life. If it was forever and impossible to lose, why would you have to "hold onto it?")

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of God and the Lord Jesus Christ” (II Thessalonians 1:7-12)

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12)

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For ever one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that DOETH truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God” (John 3:19-21)

“For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth doth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and DO not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:43-46)

"If ye KEEP my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in His love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full” (John 15:10-11)

(Notice Jesus says you gotta KEEP his commandments, not just believe in him alone.)

“Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God” (III John 1:11)

(What if a Christian does evil, or a non-Christian does good?)

“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Mark 13:13)

(Why would you have to "endure to the end" to be saved, if you are saved forever once you "believe" in Jesus and "accept" him?)

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48)

“For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified” (Romans 2:12-13)

(So you see, DOERS are the ones that are justified, not believers.)

“Blessed are they that DO His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city” (Revelation 22:14)

(Sounds pretty clear cut, that you have to DO his commandments, not just believe in him.)

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that DOETH the will of God abideth for ever” (I John 2:15-17)

(Sounds like it's saying that if you DOETH the will of God, you will live forever. Not just believe alone.)

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you” (John 14:15-18)

(Jesus seems to be saying that if you keep his commandments, he will send the Holy Spirit to you. He didn't say belief alone was enough.)

“Lord, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.” (Psalms 119:166)

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." (Galatians 6:9)

“If a righteous person turns to sinning and ACTS like any other sinner, should he be allowed to live? No, of course not! All his previous goodness will be forgotten, and he shall die for his sins” (Ezekiel 18:24)

“Do you think I like to see the wicked die? Of course not! I only want him to turn from his wicked ways and live … If a wicked person turns away from his wickedness and OBEYS the law, and DOES what is right, he shall save his soul” (Ezekiel 18:23,27)

As you can see, these 40 verses say you have to DO God's will, OBEY God's teachings, follow God's commandments, and continue to LIVE a righteous life in order to be saved. It's spelled out in plain English. Thus one must conclude that you gotta do BOTH, obey God and live righteously, as well as receive God's grace of eternal life through Christ, in order to be saved and stay saved.

Gabriel Ansley explains here why "believing" that Jesus died for you alone is not going to get you saved.

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... ose-again/

Here he explains why you having to "accept Christ" is a fallacy. The truth is, God has to accept YOU.

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... al-savior/

Here he explains how the parable of Moses and Exodus exemplifies the Salvation Equation.

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... s-parable/

Index of his Salvation Equation proofs.

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation-equation/

Also, here are Bible verses that say that you can LOSE your salvation if you turn away!

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... tion-osas/

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandments delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (II Peter 2:20-22)

“The seed on stony soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. For when trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away” (Mark 4:16-17)

“The seed that fell among thorns represent those who hear God’s Word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life, the lure of wealth, and the lust for other things, so no fruit is produced” (Mark 4:18-19)

“If a righteous person turns to sinning and acts like any other sinner, should he be allowed to live? No, of course not! All his previous goodness will be forgotten, and he shall die for his sins” (Ezekiel 18:24)

“Do you think I like to see the wicked die? Of course not! I only want him to turn from his wicked ways and live … If a wicked person turns away from his wickedness and obeys the law, and does what is right, he shall save his soul” (Ezekiel 18:23,27)

“Repent, and turn from your sins while there is yet time. Put them behind you and make you a new heart and a new spirit. For I have no pleasure in seeing you die, says the Lord God. So turn yourselves and live!” (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

Like I said, at the end of the day, people believe what they WANT to believe and choose the belief that is the most ATTRACTIVE to them, not the one that makes the most sense or is best supported by the evidence. This includes Christians too of course. Of course believing that "once saved always saved" is more attractive and popular and makes one feel more secure than that they can lose their salvation if they turn from God. Everyone wants to believe that their position in heaven is already secured, because that sounds better and feels better and gives people a sense of SECURITY and guarantee. But that's not what the evidence from the Bible says. But people don't follow evidence. Most people are not truth seekers. They believe what feels best and is the most attractive and pleasing to them.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27730
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Winston » June 8th, 2018, 1:12 pm

Adama wrote:
June 1st, 2018, 4:41 am
1. Salvation is either by works or by grace. It can't be both. One negates the other, and they are mutually exclusive. Grace is the free gift; it is unearned. Therefore if salvation is by grace, the free gift of God through faith in Christ, then it cannot be by works also, because grace means it is free and without works.

And if salvation is by works then it is certainly not a free gift, because then it is earned.

Salvation is either completely by grace (through faith) or completely by works . The two absolutely cannot be combined. They are each exclusive.

2. Work salvation is impossible. A person must have kept all the commandments from day one of their life until death. Only Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior, the Redeemer, is able to keep all the commandments, which is half the reason why He is the savior of the world (and then He died to take our eternal penalty). A mere mortal man cannot do this.

3. Work salvation is self-condemnation. If the standard were work salvation, then anyone who has ever committed fornication, or watched pornography, or gone to a strip club, or been drunk or disobeyed their parents in the lightest matter, has failed to keep the entirety of the law. Therefore by saying that salvation is by works, people condemn themselves.

4. The commandments go much deeper than the casual person is aware of. For this reason, even by knowing the commandment, a person may offend, not knowing the full depth of it. For example, in Matthew 5 Christ gives the depth of some of the commandments from the old days that the Jews knew of, and explains it for them.

5. Few people know all the commandments, and even breaking one of them would send a person to hell. Sure there are the ten commandments listed there. However, there are more commandments interspersed. Moreover, some commandments are not even explicitly stated. Like for example, women should not be wearing pants. But lots of women do. And women should certainly not walk around half naked ever. Yet they do.

6. Work salvation elevates the status of the person to equal with Christ. Essentially this person now becomes their own redeemer. Only God is good enough to be the Redeemer. Man is a fallen creature, and man's works are not counted toward salvation.

7. Work salvation is like trying to ascend into heaven by a person building his own ladder or staircase. It is simply not possible to do. Christ must exalt the person to heaven. He is the only way.

8. Work salvation says that the person will cover their own sins, and pay the penalty for their own sins, and the penalty for sin is death. Death eternal is hell. Work salvation is the person basically stating openly (though they don't know it), that they will have to suffer.

9. Every false religion, and every false way is by works. True Christianity is the only religion that is by faith alone. Why? Because Christ gets all the glory for our salvation in Christianity. Work salvation gives half the glory to the person, which denies Christ. Christ died. Unless the person also wants to die as Christ did, then they should recognize the folly of work salvation.

Karma, for example, in Buddhism, is work salvation. Buddhists save themselves and exalt themselves into their personal paradise, through their own works. In Buddhism, by following the commandments they've chosen, they get to become their own Christ. However, we can't become our own redeemer by following the commandments.

10. Work salvation is a snare, and anyone who subscribes to it is on the road to destruction. Many people who cannot believe the gospel have fallen for this one.
But you are assuming that one has to follow the law and commandments perfectly. I don't think God is that unreasonable. He probably meant that if you follow his commandments to a reasonable degree and try your best or make a valiant effort, then that is enough. No one can be perfect, so why would God expect you to?

If I demanded that you climb Mt. Everest in 5 minutes or else you go to hell, would that be a reasonable standard or requirement? Of course not. Would that be just? I don't think so. The punishment should fit the crime. Small misdemeanors should receive small punishments, not eternal damnation. Even governments operate that way.

Also, some groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses say that the word "hell" is a mistranslation of the Bible and that it doesn't exist. The unsaved simply cease to exist, that's it, and don't get eternal punishment. Have you heard of that? The Jehovah's Witnesses are very scholarly in their knowledge of Greek so they must have some valid basis for saying that. It would make sense though. If I were a game designer and I wanted to save some of the characters in the simulation, I would just save them and erase the rest of the characters. Why subject the rest to eternal torment? For what purpose? It makes no sense. If you don't like something, you erase it, not punish it eternally. That's illogical and sounds sickening and too terrible to be true. Even Hitler would not punish anyone eternally.

You misunderstood something above. No one is saying that Biblical salvation is by works alone. We are saying that it is by BOTH works and faith, not one or the other alone. You keep misunderstanding this. Please watch the whole seminar by Gabriel about Salvation Equation. It explains it all clearly. The equation involves TWO variables, not one. You don't seem to get this.

This makes some common sense. Obviously you have to follow a religion's teachings to be a real follower. Otherwise it's just lip service. Words are cheap. Anyone can claim to be something, but if you don't live it, then you aren't it. Basic common sense. Even you would agree with that.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27730
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Winston » June 8th, 2018, 2:13 pm

Adama wrote:
June 5th, 2018, 6:38 pm
TruthSeeker wrote:
June 5th, 2018, 6:34 pm
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Nullifying would contradict Jesus' statement here. In other words what you're saying is once they've received grace, that can be nullified and they can lose their salvation. Jesus said they shall never perish.
No, I am saying that if a person trusts in their own works, they have not ever received grace, because grace comes only through faith. If a person believes salvation comes through grace by faith AND by works, then by adding works, they have just denied grace, because grace is free, and works are works, and works are not free.

Only people who believe by faith alone receive grace, and they will never lose their salvation, as you just quoted above. However, if someone thinks that salvation is free (by grace) yet they're also trusting in their own works (earnings), then they are really just trusting in their works. Because grace will not be given if the person trusts in their works. Grace is free, not earned. Trusting in our own works means that salvation is earned through our works.

Either salvation is earned by our own works, or it is given to us freely, for trusting in Christ and His works (and His works are complete). A man cannot keep all the commandments, only Christ can do that. Therefore only by faith in Christ are we saved.

Work salvation is a deception.
Yes but you are trying to use basic human logic here. Logic doesn't often work when it comes to the Bible. For example, basic human logic says that Jesus and God can't be the same person, but yet you have to accept the doctrine of the Trinity on faith. It can't be explained logically but you still have to accept it. Plus there are many Bible verses where Jesus seems to talk about God the Father as a separate person. There is no logical answer to this. It's something you gotta take on faith, even if it's illogical.

You see what I mean? That's why literalism and logic can't really be applied to the Bible.

Btw, your free gift argument is addressed by Gabriel here:

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... rnal-life/
The Free Gift

“The free gift of eternal life” is another phrase the Apostle Paul used that has preachers confused today. The argument goes like this … if eternal life is a gift, then we don’t have to do anything, right? I mean, if we have to do something to obtain eternal life, then how’s it a gift? See the confusion? So let me clear this issue up today, very easily, by going back to our Salvation Equation (SE).
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Faith via Grace, NOT Faith Alone!

Post by Adama » June 8th, 2018, 3:56 pm

Because God's standard is absolute perfection if salvation is by the commandments, which no mortal man can possibly ever do. Even one sin can take a person to hell. Just one. It isn't a system of balances. It is absolute perfection. This is why God sent His Son Jesus Christ: So that He could complete the whole law for us and then take our eternal penalty by dying for our sins. He won for us twice: by completing the whole law, which is impossible for man, and then by taking the eternal penalty for the sins we actually do commit.

Now if you can't accept that God's standard is absolute perfect holiness if salvation were by works, then there's no point in conversing further.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Adama » June 8th, 2018, 4:02 pm

Winston wrote:
June 8th, 2018, 1:12 pm
Adama wrote:
June 1st, 2018, 4:41 am
1. Salvation is either by works or by grace. It can't be both. One negates the other, and they are mutually exclusive. Grace is the free gift; it is unearned. Therefore if salvation is by grace, the free gift of God through faith in Christ, then it cannot be by works also, because grace means it is free and without works.

And if salvation is by works then it is certainly not a free gift, because then it is earned.

Salvation is either completely by grace (through faith) or completely by works . The two absolutely cannot be combined. They are each exclusive.

2. Work salvation is impossible. A person must have kept all the commandments from day one of their life until death. Only Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God, the Savior, the Redeemer, is able to keep all the commandments, which is half the reason why He is the savior of the world (and then He died to take our eternal penalty). A mere mortal man cannot do this.

3. Work salvation is self-condemnation. If the standard were work salvation, then anyone who has ever committed fornication, or watched pornography, or gone to a strip club, or been drunk or disobeyed their parents in the lightest matter, has failed to keep the entirety of the law. Therefore by saying that salvation is by works, people condemn themselves.

4. The commandments go much deeper than the casual person is aware of. For this reason, even by knowing the commandment, a person may offend, not knowing the full depth of it. For example, in Matthew 5 Christ gives the depth of some of the commandments from the old days that the Jews knew of, and explains it for them.

5. Few people know all the commandments, and even breaking one of them would send a person to hell. Sure there are the ten commandments listed there. However, there are more commandments interspersed. Moreover, some commandments are not even explicitly stated. Like for example, women should not be wearing pants. But lots of women do. And women should certainly not walk around half naked ever. Yet they do.

6. Work salvation elevates the status of the person to equal with Christ. Essentially this person now becomes their own redeemer. Only God is good enough to be the Redeemer. Man is a fallen creature, and man's works are not counted toward salvation.

7. Work salvation is like trying to ascend into heaven by a person building his own ladder or staircase. It is simply not possible to do. Christ must exalt the person to heaven. He is the only way.

8. Work salvation says that the person will cover their own sins, and pay the penalty for their own sins, and the penalty for sin is death. Death eternal is hell. Work salvation is the person basically stating openly (though they don't know it), that they will have to suffer.

9. Every false religion, and every false way is by works. True Christianity is the only religion that is by faith alone. Why? Because Christ gets all the glory for our salvation in Christianity. Work salvation gives half the glory to the person, which denies Christ. Christ died. Unless the person also wants to die as Christ did, then they should recognize the folly of work salvation.

Karma, for example, in Buddhism, is work salvation. Buddhists save themselves and exalt themselves into their personal paradise, through their own works. In Buddhism, by following the commandments they've chosen, they get to become their own Christ. However, we can't become our own redeemer by following the commandments.

10. Work salvation is a snare, and anyone who subscribes to it is on the road to destruction. Many people who cannot believe the gospel have fallen for this one.
But you are assuming that one has to follow the law and commandments perfectly. I don't think God is that unreasonable. He probably meant that if you follow his commandments to a reasonable degree and try your best or make a valiant effort, then that is enough. No one can be perfect, so why would God expect you to?

If I demanded that you climb Mt. Everest in 5 minutes or else you go to hell, would that be a reasonable standard or requirement? Of course not. Would that be just? I don't think so. The punishment should fit the crime. Small misdemeanors should receive small punishments, not eternal damnation. Even governments operate that way.

Also, some groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses say that the word "hell" is a mistranslation of the Bible and that it doesn't exist. The unsaved simply cease to exist, that's it, and don't get eternal punishment. Have you heard of that? The Jehovah's Witnesses are very scholarly in their knowledge of Greek so they must have some valid basis for saying that. It would make sense though. If I were a game designer and I wanted to save some of the characters in the simulation, I would just save them and erase the rest of the characters. Why subject the rest to eternal torment? For what purpose? It makes no sense. If you don't like something, you erase it, not punish it eternally. That's illogical and sounds sickening and too terrible to be true. Even Hitler would not punish anyone eternally.

You misunderstood something above. No one is saying that Biblical salvation is by works alone. We are saying that it is by BOTH works and faith, not one or the other alone. You keep misunderstanding this. Please watch the whole seminar by Gabriel about Salvation Equation. It explains it all clearly. The equation involves TWO variables, not one. You don't seem to get this.

This makes some common sense. Obviously you have to follow a religion's teachings to be a real follower. Otherwise it's just lip service. Words are cheap. Anyone can claim to be something, but if you don't live it, then you aren't it. Basic common sense. Even you would agree with that.
Most people don't know, not even Christians, but hell is going to be trillions of times worse and harsher than is imaginable. And the eternal fire is just one of the many things.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. They don't believe that Christ is the Son of God. That is what must be believed to be a saved, born again Christian. Therefore they are not Christians but a false religion. You can safely ignore their doctrine completely.

Also, as I've been trying to say, works and faith/grace plus works are the same. As I have been saying, if works (earnings) are added to faith (grace, free gift of God), then grace will not be given. Either salvation is earned through our works or it is free by our faith. Salvation cannot be both free and earned; it can't be both through works and by the free gift of God. It is either or. The two cannot be combined. Adding works (earnings) to grace (the free gift of God by faith in Christ) cancel out one another.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

User avatar
Adama
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 6207
Joined: August 23rd, 2009, 10:37 pm

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Adama » June 8th, 2018, 4:08 pm

Winston wrote:
June 8th, 2018, 2:13 pm
Btw, your free gift argument is addressed by Gabriel here:

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... rnal-life/
The Free Gift

“The free gift of eternal life” is another phrase the Apostle Paul used that has preachers confused today. The argument goes like this … if eternal life is a gift, then we don’t have to do anything, right? I mean, if we have to do something to obtain eternal life, then how’s it a gift? See the confusion? So let me clear this issue up today, very easily, by going back to our Salvation Equation (SE).

Maybe the quote is cut off? That seems like a half statement to me.

A person doesn't understand these words:
FREE
GIFT ?
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27730
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Winston » June 8th, 2018, 4:14 pm

Adama wrote:
June 8th, 2018, 4:08 pm
Winston wrote:
June 8th, 2018, 2:13 pm
Btw, your free gift argument is addressed by Gabriel here:

http://10lovecommandments.com/salvation ... rnal-life/
The Free Gift

“The free gift of eternal life” is another phrase the Apostle Paul used that has preachers confused today. The argument goes like this … if eternal life is a gift, then we don’t have to do anything, right? I mean, if we have to do something to obtain eternal life, then how’s it a gift? See the confusion? So let me clear this issue up today, very easily, by going back to our Salvation Equation (SE).

Maybe the quote is cut off? That seems like a half statement to me.

A person doesn't understand these words:
FREE
GIFT ?
Of course. That was an excerpt. You were supposed to click the link above to see the full article. Duh. :P
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 27730
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Why Biblical Salvation is by WORKS and Grace, NOT Grace Alone!

Post by Winston » June 8th, 2018, 4:17 pm

Adama wrote:
June 8th, 2018, 4:02 pm
Most people don't know, not even Christians, but hell is going to be trillions of times worse and harsher than is imaginable. And the eternal fire is just one of the many things.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christian. They don't believe that Christ is the Son of God. That is what must be believed to be a saved, born again Christian. Therefore they are not Christians but a false religion. You can safely ignore their doctrine completely.

Also, as I've been trying to say, works and faith/grace plus works are the same. As I have been saying, if works (earnings) are added to faith (grace, free gift of God), then grace will not be given. Either salvation is earned through our works or it is free by our faith. Salvation cannot be both free and earned; it can't be both through works and by the free gift of God. It is either or. The two cannot be combined. Adding works (earnings) to grace (the free gift of God by faith in Christ) cancel out one another.
And how would you know that? You aren't the official mouthpiece for God. lol

The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that YOU are not true Christians too. Who are we supposed to believe?

They have a lot of scholarly knowledge of Biblical texts in Greek. That's why you can't argue with them. They can use the Greek texts to prove their arguments and doctrines. Have you ever met one? They can refute everything you say from original texts.

Yes of course they believe Jesus is the Son of God. Duh. They just don't believe that Jesus is God himself or the doctrine of the trinity. You got that wrong.

Btw did you see the 40 verses I posted above that say that Salvation is by works and faith? I spent a lot of time on it, so you should look it over. You can't just pick and choose the verses you like.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Religion and Spirituality”