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How Ezra created Judaism

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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fschmidt
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How Ezra created Judaism

Post by fschmidt » October 14th, 2018, 7:23 am


MrMan
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Re: How Ezra created Judaism

Post by MrMan » October 17th, 2018, 1:53 am

I disagree with your analysis. God did not allow Israel to intermarry with the seven nations. That was forbidden. The reason was because they would draw Israel away to other gods. But still, the commandment is the commandment and intermarriage was not allowed.

Some time post-Ezra, Talmudic Judaism allowed it, though. An Israelite could marry a converted Canaanite.

The thing that concerned me from Ezra 9 is that Egyptians were in the list. Marrying an Egyptian woman who feared god should be considered 'kosher' for a Hebrew as I understand the Old Testament. Ephraim and Mannasseh had Egyptian mothers. Israelites could intermarry with concubines taken during warfare with distant tribes, but not with the seven forbidden nations of Canaan. I like to give Ezra the benefit of the doubt in the hopes that the ones marrying Egyptians were priests, and that was forbidden.

Lineage was originally counted through the male. Talmudic Judaism counts it through the woman. This may be an explanation why Ruth's descendants were accepted. Perhaps the proper interpretation of the Torah was that the descendants of a God-fearing Moabite male whose descendants lived in Israel for 11 generations could enter the assembly. But the children of a Judahite and a God-fearing Moabitess could be accepted as an Israelite because of he was a member of an Israelite tribe through the male line.

What Jewish sources say that Ezra changed the Old Testament? I would not be surprised if the Samaritans made that accusation, since their Torah was apparently altered to make the temple on Mt. Gerazhim after one of the Sanballats recruited the high priest's brother who had married his daughter and was expelled by his brother from the priestly service for doing so, to be high priest in Samaria. Other priests went with him according to Josephus.

There is the theory that Ezra compiled some of the historical books, also, categorized in 'the prophets' in Jewish thought.

MrMan
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Re: How Ezra created Judaism

Post by MrMan » October 17th, 2018, 1:53 am

I disagree with your analysis. God did not allow Israel to intermarry with the seven nations. That was forbidden. The reason was because they would draw Israel away to other gods. But still, the commandment is the commandment and intermarriage was not allowed.

Some time post-Ezra, Talmudic Judaism allowed it, though. An Israelite could marry a converted Canaanite.

The thing that concerned me from Ezra 9 is that Egyptians were in the list. Marrying an Egyptian woman who feared god should be considered 'kosher' for a Hebrew as I understand the Old Testament. Ephraim and Mannasseh had Egyptian mothers. Israelites could intermarry with concubines taken during warfare with distant tribes, but not with the seven forbidden nations of Canaan. I like to give Ezra the benefit of the doubt in the hopes that the ones marrying Egyptians were priests, and that was forbidden.

Lineage was originally counted through the male. Talmudic Judaism counts it through the woman. This may be an explanation why Ruth's descendants were accepted. Perhaps the proper interpretation of the Torah was that the descendants of a God-fearing Moabite male whose descendants lived in Israel for 11 generations could enter the assembly. But the children of a Judahite and a God-fearing Moabitess could be accepted as an Israelite because of he was a member of an Israelite tribe through the male line.

What Jewish sources say that Ezra changed the Old Testament? I would not be surprised if the Samaritans made that accusation, since their Torah was apparently altered to make the temple on Mt. Gerazhim after one of the Sanballats recruited the high priest's brother who had married his daughter and was expelled by his brother from the priestly service for doing so, to be high priest in Samaria. Other priests went with him according to Josephus.

There is the theory that Ezra compiled some of the historical books, also, categorized in 'the prophets' in Jewish thought.

fschmidt
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Re: How Ezra created Judaism

Post by fschmidt » October 17th, 2018, 2:35 am

Modern Christians are hopeless, but nevertheless I will respond.
MrMan wrote:
October 17th, 2018, 1:53 am
I disagree with your analysis. God did not allow Israel to intermarry with the seven nations. That was forbidden. The reason was because they would draw Israel away to other gods. But still, the commandment is the commandment and intermarriage was not allowed.
I explained this in what I wrote. If you didn't understand what I said, that's too bad.
Some time post-Ezra, Talmudic Judaism allowed it, though. An Israelite could marry a converted Canaanite.

The thing that concerned me from Ezra 9 is that Egyptians were in the list. Marrying an Egyptian woman who feared god should be considered 'kosher' for a Hebrew as I understand the Old Testament. Ephraim and Mannasseh had Egyptian mothers. Israelites could intermarry with concubines taken during warfare with distant tribes, but not with the seven forbidden nations of Canaan. I like to give Ezra the benefit of the doubt in the hopes that the ones marrying Egyptians were priests, and that was forbidden.
Completely irrelevant.
Lineage was originally counted through the male. Talmudic Judaism counts it through the woman. This may be an explanation why Ruth's descendants were accepted. Perhaps the proper interpretation of the Torah was that the descendants of a God-fearing Moabite male whose descendants lived in Israel for 11 generations could enter the assembly. But the children of a Judahite and a God-fearing Moabitess could be accepted as an Israelite because of he was a member of an Israelite tribe through the male line.
If it was through the males, then why did Ezra expel non-jewish wives? So this makes no sense.
What Jewish sources say that Ezra changed the Old Testament? I would not be surprised if the Samaritans made that accusation, since their Torah was apparently altered to make the temple on Mt. Gerazhim after one of the Sanballats recruited the high priest's brother who had married his daughter and was expelled by his brother from the priestly service for doing so, to be high priest in Samaria. Other priests went with him according to Josephus.
I posted the link for jewish sources. The link was jewish, so you can look into it yourself. Whether or not the Samaritans altered the Torah is irrelevant. What is relevant is that 2 very different sources agree that Ezra altered the Old Testament.
There is the theory that Ezra compiled some of the historical books, also, categorized in 'the prophets' in Jewish thought.
Yes I am quite sure that Ezra compiled Chronicles because it is absolute garbage in comparison to the other history. It also belongs in the Old Testament as an example of how evil people twist history, since it can be compared to the good historical sources in the Old Testament.

MrMan
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Re: How Ezra created Judaism

Post by MrMan » October 17th, 2018, 3:03 am

The passage with Ezra does seem to be a difficult one, mainly because of the presence of Egyptians there. Why would they be expelled? The Torah forbade intermarriage with Amorites, yeah, Jebusites, etc., but not with Egyptians. Though Egyptians who were pagan were a problem. Solomon married an Egyptian.

The idea of scholars knowing for certain that Ezra changed the Torah is laughable to me. Some fields have really no standards for evidence. Unless Torah scholars have figured out the mechanics of time machines, that seems an impossible assertion. I wonder why they would think the alternate readings (I assume) are genuine as opposed to the standard readings. I think all types of Bible scholars would allow that there are some textual variations on how scrolls were copied.

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