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Ross Gunn III lost Bible debate with Winston Wu in 1987!

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Ross Gunn III lost Bible debate with Winston Wu in 1987!

Postby Winston » Wed May 12, 2010 5:43 pm

Hi all,
While writing a new section of my biography about a debate I had with my Youth Pastor back in 1987, I googled his name, Ross Gunn III, and found his website. He is now a sex addiction counselor. Check out his bio here:

http://www.skyviewcounseling.com/PAGES/ ... selor.html

And even though it's been so many years, he still has the exact same beliefs as he did before. Check out how fanatical he is:

http://www.skyviewcounseling.com/PAGES/ ... selor.html

In Man & Woman

1) Man and woman were both created in God’s image and likeness in order to reflect God's heart and character in their lives and in their relationships.
2) Man and woman were both created as a trichotomy having a Spirit, Soul {mind, emotions, will} & Body. (Gen. 2:7; Luke 2:52; I Thess. 5:23; Heb. 4:12.)
3) Adam and Eve’s sin originally effected and corrupted the whole human race. Thus separating sinful man and mankind from the holy God.
4) But because of Christ dying on the cross for our sins, we now have the choice to either accept God’s gift by faith or reject it. As a result of this choice man will either live eternally with God in heaven or eternally apart from God in hell.
5) Although biologically different in many ways, God loves and values both men and women equally. Although men and women often have different roles and responsibilities God loves and values them both while holding them responsible for their gifts, talents and skills.
6) Because the LORD GOD deeply loves us, He will discipline us when we are in sin or are rebellious.
7) Man and woman's primary purpose is to love God with all of our heart, soul and strength and to love to ourselves (in a humble, healthy way) our Bride (or husband), our children and those around us.

(Gen. 1:26-27; 2:7; Matt. 25: 14-30; Lk. 10:27; Rom. 3:10-19; 5:12-14; Gal. 3:28; Eph. 2:1-3; 5:22-33; Heb.12:3-11; Rev. 20: 11-15)


Damn he would freak if he saw this website!

Should I contact him to say hi and show him Happier Abroad to see what he says? That would be like matter and anti-matter colliding wouldn't it? lol

Imagine how outraged he'd be if he saw my "sinful" Photo Collage!

Or maybe I should just show him my Christian deconversion story and debunking Christian arguments page?

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Christian_Story.htm

Ironically, he also moved to Nevada and Washington after living in California, like I did, and helps men with loneliness/sex addiction problems too, like I do, yet his solution is completely different than mine of course.

I've become a totally different person than I was when I knew him. Yet he is the same it seems. It would still be nice to say hi to see if he remembers me though. We probably wouldn't have anything in common though except that we both view US society as sick and dysfunctional (and "sinful" too in his case).

Anyhow, here is the narrative I wrote about me challenging him to a debate about Christian doctrine when I was 14 back in 1987:

--------------------------------------------------

At an early age, Wu demonstrated a propensity to challenge authority in the name of truth.

When he was 14, he beat his Youth Pastor in a debate over free will vs. election/predestination in the role of Salvation in the Bible.

Annoyed that the whole church was teaching freewill salvation which was not supported by the Bible, Wu brought a long list of Bible verses he wrote down, along with a summary, which supported the doctrine of election and predestination, to discuss with his Youth Pastor, who took him into his private office. When Wu presented the verses and arguments, his Pastor became annoyed and then changed the subject by drilling Wu on whether the Bible taught that man was composed of body, spirit and soul, or just body and soul. When Wu gave his answer and tried to return to the topic, he jumped on it by saying that he was wrong and that Wu was not qualified to be debating Bible doctrine.

It was clear that Wu’s Pastor was unable to address the verses and arguments that Wu brought, and unable to defend his freewill Salvation doctrine against it, for he was unprepared and untrained in such areas. So he attempted to discredit Wu with a cheap diversionary shot to protect his ego and position of power, since in his view, Wu was out of line. How dare a youth challenge a Youth Pastor!

But technically, the Youth Pastor lost the debate by not being able to address or refute ANY of Wu's Bible verses that supported election/predestination in the Bible. Instead, he put Wu back in line with his dominating personality and authority for challenging him. Probably he was taken aback that a teenage Christian youth would try to correct him on Biblical doctrines, something he had never anticipated or experienced before.

Though Wu knew that what he did was disruptive to the harmony between youth and Youth Pastor, deep down he felt that truth and accuracy were more important than harmonious relationships. And possessing a keen intellect, Wu was annoyed by contradictions and discrepancies.

Likewise, when he was 19, Wu went to a Presbyterian Chinese Church in Fremont, CA. After the sermon, Wu went up to the pastor outside and asked him:

- "John Calvin, the founder of your church, taught that Predestination and Election determined Salvation, not free will. So why do you teach Salvation by free will then?"

- "Also, in the Bible, Paul in 1st Corinthians clearly said that women are to be silent in the church. So why do you let women make speeches during your church services?"

The Pastor became annoyed then asked him whether he had sold all his possessions as the first Christians were commanded to in the Book of Acts. Then he gave a long loud spiel about consistency in the Bible, and not taking things out of context, asserting his authority as well.

When Wu told the girl who drove him to the church about what happened, she said, "Wow he was probably surprised that a teen would challenge him on Bible stuff."
Last edited by Winston on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:43 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Postby Winston » Wed May 12, 2010 6:01 pm

Btw, in Ross Gunn's bio:

http://www.skyviewcounseling.com/PAGES/ ... selor.html

PERSONAL

• Ross has lived most of his life on the West Coast in California. He, his Bride and family have also lived in Hawaii, Nevada, Oregon and now Washington.
• Ross has been in love with his Bride for over 30 years. They have two wonderful, gifted and Godly children.
• Received Christ in November of 1967 in the back of a VW bus.
• Spiritual Gifts are Pastor/Teacher and Exhortation.
• Enjoys most sports - especially football, volleyball and stunt kite flying.
• Ross has a heart to see men grow and develop into strong men of God. Men whose lives reflect the image and likeness of Christ in integrity and truth. He desires to see these men cherish their Bride and their children while impacting their world for Christ.


I still remember that he often told us the story of how he became saved, which he listed above. After a youth of sin, sex and drugs, he heard the Gospel and then in the back of a VW bus (as he mentions above) he felt convicted by the Holy Spirit. So he asked God, "God, if the Gospel I heard is true and you're for real, then make the next car that passes by a (specific make, color and model, I forget what it was)". Then, when that exact vehicle in the color he said passed by on the road at the next moment, he accepted Christ and became born again. And that's how his ministry got started back in 1967.

That's an interesting testimonial. And I'm sure there are plenty of others like it.

I knew him as someone who was 100 percent convinced and serious about his beliefs. His eyes and face were dead serious whenever he talked about Christ and his faith. He had an ability to make someone feel guilty and convicted just by looking at them. I guess that's what makes an effective Pastor?

I do miss the fun youth camps he took us to back in the 80's. There was fellowship, fun, nice friendly accepting inclusive people, etc. It was the exact opposite from the cold, shallow persecutory teens I had to endure in high school back then. So it was a much needed "salvation" from them for me. And the fact that the teens in my youth groups were so much friendlier than in the normal world, also seemed to validate our black and white view that the rest of the world was lost in sin and darkness, and that we were the only ones who were "saved" by God. It was a very extreme black and white view, but it made me feel special and gave me something to believe in during my hellish teenage years of chaos and insecurity.

But maybe what I really miss is being young and innocent again.

I heard that there is something in psychology that says that we tend to remember the past as better than it actually was.
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Postby Rock » Wed May 12, 2010 6:35 pm

Hi Winston

I remember my middle aged youth group teacher at my church ended-up having relations with a 14 year-old female students in our group. That was really a wake-up call. Sometimes, the harshest judges and supposed role models end up being exposed as huge hypocrites. It happens quite frequently with politicians too, especially those who espouse family values.

I noticed that the New Testament, which you are probably quite well versed in from your born again days, has quite a split between Paul on the one hand and James and Peter on the other. Basically, Paul pushed everyone (Jews and Gentiles alike) to move away from the laws Moses laid-out in the Torah since they could now rely entirely on salvation from Jesus. The old law he said was obsolete. But Paul himself never met Jesus in the flesh. He based everything he preached on dreams and visions. James, on the other hand, was Jesus' flesh brother. He as well as the other apostles and it could be argued Jesus himself, stayed faithful to the old law both in words and actions. Paul's version won out and some would argue led to the major divide between Judaism and Christianity. Thus, you will see a lot of inconsistencies between what today's protestant churches teach when compared directly to the Old Testament. I've noticed that some Christian leaders pick and choose from the Old Testament as suits their needs. I remember Pat Robertson recently blamed the Haiti earthquake on a pact the country made with the devil, presumably right before the slave revolt which lead to the country's independence and freedom from slavery.
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Postby Think Different » Wed May 12, 2010 7:18 pm

Winston, it sounds like you still have a lot of anger in you in regards to your Christian upbringing, and I'm not here to question that at all. I generally have not spoken about my own beliefs much, except in one post to Marcus Aurelius. He told me that he is in the seminary (Protestant), and he sounds like a nice guy, so perhaps he can address some of your concerns.

If you will permit me, I would like to share some thoughts of my own struggles with the Christian message and what I've found in my own spiritual journey. I still find myself a devout believer, and more so today, since I joined the Orthodox Church. You are free to email me privately, too, if you wish to talk about it. I promise to never bash you, but to respect your opinions, beliefs, and experiences. I'm not an encyclopedic source of quote-by-quote Bible references or challenges, either.

1. I was raised the son, grandson, and great-grandson of Lutheran pastors (over 100 years), so going to church and the Christian message was with me, from day one. I only started questioning it, as I became a teenager, wondering if it's true, or just something I have always just accepted as part of my lifestyle/rearing, etc.
2. I always struggled hard with the whole no sex before marriage, lust, and judgementalism I heard around me by others in the church, but found it odd that while adults were quick to blame and point fingers, they themselves were just as sinful. I've come to realize that we're all fallen, and we can either point fingers at each other and act sanctimonious, or we can help each other up, and just forgive.
3. Until I went overseas, it didn't become clear to me that what we experience in the US is an Americanized version of Christianity, and not necessarily the whole, complete, or entirely accurate representation of the True Message. Personally, I find the in-your-face, megachurch, Bible-thumping, turn-or-burn "Gospel" approach to be a TOTAL turn-off and as a Christian, it makes me sick to see it being used. You don't find this in most other countries that ARE Christian, except in those that have been overly-evangelized by Americans. These foreign believers have become not so much Christians, but "AmeriChristians". "AmeriChristianity" is an animal that is a blend of TV evangelism, Puritanism, pioneerism, winner-complexed "we're-better/smarter-than-everyone-else" attitude, and so on. Those foreign believers have taken on an alternate persona, often at the expense of their own native culture.
4. There are approximately 20,000 Protestant denominations around the world, that have spun off from the original Orthodox Church, via the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant reformation 500 years ago. Every denomination has their own take on the Gospel message, and no 2 agree completely. Don't you find it odd that we all agree to disagree on our denominational differences, but never stop to wonder what makes each of us our own infallible interpreter of Scriptures? As the Catholics say, "every man is infallible, except the Pope". Well, I'm not Catholic, and don't accept Papal infallibility, but regardless, I don't accept it in Protestantism, either. Look what individualism has brought Christianity: 20,000 denominations and lots of confusion.
5. In the Orthodox Church I found the most humble and gracious priests, quiet and caring believers, and NO ONE who will judge me, based on my past. The Orthodox take a much more matter-of-fact approach to the faith, and in general have a different belief than Western Christianity. For the Orthodox, it's NOT about sex. They just accept sin and fallen-ness as a matter of fact, so let's get on with it, and not dwell on it. They do NOT believe, for instance that Adam and Eve's sin was caused by sex (as many Catholics believe), and they do NOT believe we carry or inherit the GUILT of Adam and Eve. We only inherit the STATUS of fallen-ness, as a matter of fact. How can we be guilty of sins we personally didn't commit?
6. The ENTIRE FOCUS of the Orthodox Church is on something called "theosis", which Western Christians have never heard of. Theosis is man's striving to work with God (through Christ and the Holy Spirit) to "become like God". Yes, that's what I said. The whole point is to become increasingly closer to God, so that His nature becomes our nature. Our lack of ability or poor attempts to do so, are what are called "sin", and we don't beat ourselves up about it. It's a much freer, more peaceful attitude to the whole situation. As you can see, it has tones of Buddhism in it, and once you look at Orthodox monastic life, you'll see the Orthodox and Buddhist monks have a lot in common.
7. The general difference between the Orthodox and the Buddhists is that the Buddhists try to eliminate all desires from the self, in order to become part of the universal consciousness, i.e. you lose yourself. The Orthodox try to overcome the passions, in order to keep focused on drawing closer to God and becoming like Him, but we always retain our own personality and uniqueness. It's a very mystical and spiritual path, that we in the West have lost/forgotten/chosen to ignore. In the West, it's all about logical belief, realism, practicalism, etc. In the Orthodox Church, like throughout the East, the approach is very spiritual, personal, non-confrontational. The Orthodox believe in the mysteries of who God is, and don't try to hyper-analyze everything in the Bible. They leave room for learning, growth, questioning, and sometimes just say, "we don't know". After all, God is greater than us, and who would want to believe in a God that was small enough for us to get our head around?
8. Not all who call themselves Christian are true believers (including the Orthodox), and not all Christians believe the same thing or have the same attitude, especially when you leave the US. Remember, God will not judge us by which denomination we adhered to (those are human designations). We are all judged on our own, based on what we did with the light given to each of us. Again, the Orthodox don't focus on the Judgement, nor ultimate Salvation. Their attitude is, if God says He'll save all true believers in Christ, and God is all-loving, and never changes, then who are we do question Him? The focus is on theosis.
9. One of the hardest things I struggled with was why so-called devout Christians in the US were some of the biggest mean and selfish assholes I had ever known, while some of the most generous and thoughtful people I ever met were self-proclaimed atheists and non-Christians. I chalk this up to that AmeriChristianity I talked about before. Americans can be obnoxious, overbearing, and self-righteous people in general, and that carries over into their beliefs. Europeans, for instance, tend to be more thoughtful, caring, generous, and tolerant, and that carries over into their beliefs (if the are believers). So, forget AmeriChristianity, and look at Christianity that transcends culture and a papal figure: Orthodoxy. At least check it out. It took me 20 years of study to make the jump from being Lutheran, so that'll give you an idea about just how different it is from what you're used to hearing.
10. Lastly, what finally did it for me, was the attitude in the church. Were the believers the same outside the church than inside, during mass, service, etc? Was there a true sense of awe, mystery, the divine, humility, reverence, or was it a place that was catering to the lifestyle and fads I found outside? The Orthodox Church that I found was indeed that and more. Personally, I can barely set foot in a megachurch anymore, since I might as well go to a concert or show.

I hope this offers some help and perhaps something different to consider, before you completely write off all Christianity as false.
Last edited by Think Different on Wed May 12, 2010 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Think Different » Wed May 12, 2010 7:27 pm

Here's a place to start, if you're interested in reading more about it:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodoxy_in_the_Philippines
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Postby Winston » Wed May 12, 2010 8:27 pm

Rock wrote:Hi Winston

I remember my middle aged youth group teacher at my church ended-up having relations with a 14 year-old female students in our group. That was really a wake-up call. Sometimes, the harshest judges and supposed role models end up being exposed as huge hypocrites. It happens quite frequently with politicians too, especially those who espouse family values.

I noticed that the New Testament, which you are probably quite well versed in from your born again days, has quite a split between Paul on the one hand and James and Peter on the other. Basically, Paul pushed everyone (Jews and Gentiles alike) to move away from the laws Moses laid-out in the Torah since they could now rely entirely on salvation from Jesus. The old law he said was obsolete. But Paul himself never met Jesus in the flesh. He based everything he preached on dreams and visions. James, on the other hand, was Jesus' flesh brother. He as well as the other apostles and it could be argued Jesus himself, stayed faithful to the old law both in words and actions. Paul's version won out and some would argue led to the major divide between Judaism and Christianity. Thus, you will see a lot of inconsistencies between what today's protestant churches teach when compared directly to the Old Testament. I've noticed that some Christian leaders pick and choose from the Old Testament as suits their needs. I remember Pat Robertson recently blamed the Haiti earthquake on a pact the country made with the devil, presumably right before the slave revolt which lead to the country's independence and freedom from slavery.


I hope you didn't misunderstand. I said he was a sex addiction COUNSELOR, not a sex addict himself, at least not anymore. I remember he gave into reading porn before, but he asked Jesus for help and stopped doing it. He is a good person, but he is very very religious and serious about his beliefs. He is in another world than us.
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Postby Marcus Aurelius » Fri May 21, 2010 10:51 am

Thanks for the recomendation to this thread, and my apologies on the late reply. I have been rather busy of late, and my posts will be somewhat sporadic.

"That's an interesting testimonial. And I'm sure there are plenty of others like it."

Including my own. I lived the same life as this man, it was the same in my youth. I tried to find meaning for life in everything BUT God. I had a sudden conversion experience that changed the course of my life, despite many setbacks along the way. My walk with God is one frought with many crosses of my own.

There are a few things I will comment on regarding these posts, but I must stress that I am only sharing my opinion. I will not be one of the types who says my way is right and condemns everyone else. I respect the faiths of all people, and the lack thereof. I am a student not just of Christianity, but ALL religion, and mythology as well.

"Imagine how outraged he'd be if he saw my "sinful" Photo Collage!"

What criteria would I base such a judgement on? Zero. You will find similar photos on my computer, and I unashamedly admit to viewing porn. WOW. What kind of Christian is this? Lol. I am a REALIST. It is easy for a MARRIED pastor to condemn a BACHELOR for his use of porn; but in my opininion this is just more of the feminization of Christianity in the west, a Christianity that bullys men for what is a biological urge, an urge that we all know on here, is cut off from the majority of non alpha males. Porn is merely the symptom of a much greater ill, a society that has become hyper sexualized, while at the same time denying access to it to a large percentage of men. Hence, it becomes a necessary evil. That aside, it is not my place to tell an individual what is sin, when I myself sin; but rather to assist the individual WHERE THEY ARE to developing a relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Once this is attained, sins begin to fall away, not out of condemnation, but the desire of the individual.

"John Calvin, the founder of your church, taught that Predestination and Election determined Salvation, not free will. So why do you teach Salvation by free will then?"

I am not, nor will I ever be a fan of the theology of John Calvin. I have read his Institutes of the Christian Religion, and am much dismayed at the theology contained therein. Again, this is my opininion. But the reality is this: if predestination were true, that God had already pre determined the elect and the damned, THEN THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO NEED FOR THE CROSS IN CHRISTIANITY. My idea is this. WHY BOTHER? If it's already determined, then my confirmation of the truth is merely a reactivation of what was already destined to occur. In other words, God made it so I would believe it, so I believe it. To me, this is nonsense. It is ironic to me that Calvin quotes Augustine so frequently, when Augustine believed in free will. A mere survey of the City of God or his sermons will attest this. If free will does not exist, then Christ coming down and dying on the cross is literally nothing more than a dog and pony show. Christ comes down merely to trigger a pre conditioned response. How can one accept this? For my two cents, the views, as those like Cardinal John Henry Newman and others stated, the views of Calvin in this matter are borderline heresy and blasphemy. It utterly destroys the message of Christ on the Cross, IE, that God TAKES ON MATTER, LOWERS HIMSELF TO US, RATHER THAN US HAVING TO ELEVATE OURSELVES (which is the case of almost every other religion, and one key reason why I believe Christianity over the other religions of the world, though I love them and venerate them) TO HIM.

I would argue, not to delve too deeply into metaphysics, that destiny and fate are two seperate things, and that the two co-exist simultaneously and harmoniously. That is to say, God destines THE PROCESS, not THE ACT. IE, he DETERMINES set events that will take place in our lives, that THROUGH our free will, we either draw closer to God, or further away from. Imagine that you are walking down a long road. God set you down that road. Destiny. As you walk along that road, you come to a fork, with two different directions. One sign says God, the other EGO. Again, destiny. God has predetermined THIS. That you would come to this, and many other forks just like it. BUT YOU CHOOSE THE PATH THAT YOU TAKE. This is free will, and fate. God may know the outcome, perhaps, but the outcome, is wholly your own.


In this capacity, the message of the Cross is returned to its true position, the death of the ego, and the surrender of self, and the will, to God. That is the metaphysical meaning of the cross. To borrow from Hinduism, one attains unity with the Atman.

"Also, in the Bible, Paul in 1st Corinthians clearly said that women are to be silent in the church. So why do you let women make speeches during your church services?"

This is just simple exegesis. In looking at an epistle we have to remember that they are localized documents, written to a specific target audience. SOME of the truths in it are universal, and should be taught to ALL believers, whereas others were meant specifically for the audience in mind. This is why exegesis is essential to ANY pastor or priest, because without it, putting the verses in their context, all sorts of stupid ideas can be formed when one simple passage like this is taken out of context.

The last thing I would want to stress is my concept of sin. My view of sin, actually, is much in keeping with Buddhist and Hindu beliefs. When you look at the ten commandments there is a long list of thou shalt nots, but the first commandment IS TO LOVE THE LORD THY GOD...........ALL other sin is merely a BI PRODUCT of not heeding that first command. Because when we do not recognize God, we then dwell in the ego, the maya, the samsara....a false sense of self, with a false identification and attachment to the material body, and the needs and wants of same. Sin to me runs hand in hand with the word SYMPTOM.
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Postby Winston » Fri May 21, 2010 12:17 pm

Marcus,
Thanks for sharing your views. Interpreting the Bible is so controversial that I don't even bother. Anyone can take passages they like and rationalize away all opposing passages as being out of context, etc. The same goes with the issue of whether water baptism is required for salvation or not. There are verses that support that and those that don't. One can take either side and rationalize away the verses of the other side and say they are out of context.

It's an endless game and ultimately pointless.

And of course, if something doesn't make sense or doesn't seem fair, like the doctrine of predestination or God damning people to hell for being born imperfect with original sin, etc. then they can just say "Well God's mind is above yours and you can't understand his reasons, and who are you to question God?" They always have an out.

Fundamentalists will use John 6:44 where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me" to prove that Jesus is the only way to God.

I can easily debunk those kind of arguments.

The Bible is not infallible. It was written by humans. And Jesus wrote none of it. There is no valid reason to assume that it is some source of authority. It is a book composed of many books and doctrines and does not agree with itself on everything.

Thus, it's a moot point to take it's passages as some inerrant authority.
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Postby Winston » Fri May 21, 2010 12:27 pm

Hi all,
I emailed my former Youth Pastor and he remembered me and said hello to me. Then I asked him about sex addiction counseling and how one can possibly be "cured" of something so internal and biological and natural to man's nature. I could think of no logical way of curing something like that, it'd be like curing hunger.

Here was his response:

In regards to sexual addiction...
1) The word "cure" is a medical term that doesn't apply to addictions. Recovery and repair and restoration are perhaps better descriptive terms. Recovery is a life long process and yes it is a difficult road, especially for those who walk it alone.
2) The chemicals are also a difficult issues but as a person goes thru recovery those drugs no longer have the control over the person and they are able to sober up and eventually the internal brain damage begins to "heal" (according to the latest research).
3) Yes, SA is the hardest of the of the addictions to break (although Love Addiction may be harder in other aspects).
4) Support groups are essential — but not just any support group will do. Stay away from SAA groups. I believe that here in Vancouver the FMO (For Men Only) group is perhaps the best in the nation. But I am biased because I wrote most of the material :-). Recovery is impossible without a good support system which can hold a man accountable and responsible for their heart, thoughts, feelings, choices, behaviors, and relationships. Also I have never met a man who has broken free from SA without doing a full 4th Step in their recovery.


Now, I don't know about you. But isn't that an unnatural losing battle, to go through a "lifelong recovery process with sexual addiction"? Why not just fulfill your sexual desires in some place like Angeles City or Pattaya, even if they always return again and again and can never be satisfied forever? After you eat, you will hungry again a few hours later or the next day, right? But does that make food an addiction that has to be "cured"?

What do you think?
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Postby momopi » Fri May 21, 2010 3:25 pm

There's a difference between normal sexual desire vs. addiction (substance or behavioral), in which the person cannot manage his/her behavior.

For example, people who really enjoy their food doesn't necessarily have an eating disorder.
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Postby Marcus Aurelius » Sat May 22, 2010 7:02 am

Actually, here again, Winston, I will distance myself from the opinion of most fundamentalists. By and large, I agree with what you said, on both of your posts. I do believe the Bible as infallable metaphysically speaking, but in that sense only. I also view the Bible as a kind of spiritual training wheels to get one started on the path to knowing God. It to me is not meant to be a hammer or an axe wielded, but an instruction manual.

As to curing the sexual addiction, again, I concur. As I noted before, I view this is a feminized version of Christianity in which man's innate desire for sense gratification is somehow cast in the light that it is negative or repulsive, and that the answer is to repress it. In my view, this is unhealthy. Your view would me much better. Or as I've argued even on spiritual debate forums, that prostitution should be legal. We live in a hyper sexualized culture, and because it is nearly omnipresent, it is little wonder that a man's desire is so aroused...the only problem is....he has very little, if any outlet for this desire. I think that is why they begin to view it as 'shameful,' a desire with no outlet. But who is to blame for this? Any protestant pastor will tell you sex INSIDE of marriage is all right...too bad that your average decent church going dude can't find a single suitable mate. So he either has temporary, hypergamous encounters or relationships...if he gets any play at all...or he resorts to using things like porn. I'm sick of these christian men wanting to castrate themselves, and worse, instilling guilt and doubt in other men.

I'll never forget a friend of mine at another church said to me one afternoon over lunch "I don't think I'm a very good christian. I use porn." I just laughed. I said why, is your pastor telling you it's bad? That its a sin? Yes. Is your pastor married? Yes. Are you? No. Do you have a girlfriend? No. When was the last time you had one? About 6 years. SIX YEARS. I told him it's awfully easy for a married man from a pulpit to condemn someone who hasn't had physical contact with a female in six years. I told him he should never apologize for being a man, and for having a man's desires.

Screw this sex addiction shit.
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Postby Nate » Sat May 22, 2010 7:27 am

Marcus Aurelius wrote:Actually, here again, Winston, I will distance myself from the opinion of most fundamentalists. By and large, I agree with what you said, on both of your posts. I do believe the Bible as infallable metaphysically speaking, but in that sense only. I also view the Bible as a kind of spiritual training wheels to get one started on the path to knowing God. It to me is not meant to be a hammer or an axe wielded, but an instruction manual.

As to curing the sexual addiction, again, I concur. As I noted before, I view this is a feminized version of Christianity in which man's innate desire for sense gratification is somehow cast in the light that it is negative or repulsive, and that the answer is to repress it. In my view, this is unhealthy. Your view would me much better. Or as I've argued even on spiritual debate forums, that prostitution should be legal. We live in a hyper sexualized culture, and because it is nearly omnipresent, it is little wonder that a man's desire is so aroused...the only problem is....he has very little, if any outlet for this desire. I think that is why they begin to view it as 'shameful,' a desire with no outlet. But who is to blame for this? Any protestant pastor will tell you sex INSIDE of marriage is all right...too bad that your average decent church going dude can't find a single suitable mate. So he either has temporary, hypergamous encounters or relationships...if he gets any play at all...or he resorts to using things like porn. I'm sick of these christian men wanting to castrate themselves, and worse, instilling guilt and doubt in other men.

I'll never forget a friend of mine at another church said to me one afternoon over lunch "I don't think I'm a very good christian. I use porn." I just laughed. I said why, is your pastor telling you it's bad? That its a sin? Yes. Is your pastor married? Yes. Are you? No. Do you have a girlfriend? No. When was the last time you had one? About 6 years. SIX YEARS. I told him it's awfully easy for a married man from a pulpit to condemn someone who hasn't had physical contact with a female in six years. I told him he should never apologize for being a man, and for having a man's desires.

Screw this sex addiction shit.


If a pastor was really dong God'd work, would he not make special effort to make SURE that every eligible man in his congregation
could find a good woman to be his mate???? Would that not be a FAMILY VALUE??? Of course it would be a very sound practice, but they will not do this...they are exposed as the pussy-whipped Manginas most of them are.

Can you imagine a pastor admonishing the girls and women of his church that unless they change their ways and hearts so that they will make decent mates for the men to court, that he will be forced to advise men in his church to "Go to a far place" (abroad) to find mates? This would be an honest and good pastor, but it will never happen...most are too afraid of the bitches who really run the church
when it comes down to it...that is why so many pastors..ministers and the like impress me as a bit "swishy"...a bit limp-wristed....they will not stand in the gap for men...they are servants of the women.


my 2 cents worth....
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Postby Winston » Sat May 22, 2010 8:33 am

momopi wrote:There's a difference between normal sexual desire vs. addiction (substance or behavioral), in which the person cannot manage his/her behavior.

For example, people who really enjoy their food doesn't necessarily have an eating disorder.


Yeah but I'm not talking about frequency here. I'm talking about hunger and withdrawal symptoms if you aren't having sex, just like the hunger you'd feel if you didn't have food in one day.

I'm just saying that it's a natural thing, so why is it labeled as some addiction that needs to be cured?

Sure, some can go without sex and they don't mind. But not all. Why is that?

I think my former Youth Pastor is doing this cause of his religious beliefs about no sex outside of marriage and total monogamy. In other words, in his ideal world backed by his religious beliefs, a man would only have one sex partner his whole life and be committed to her only. There would be no variety at all.

Isn't that a lot to ask just for a religion that may not even be true? Why make big sacrifices for something that may not be true? That's not logical.
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Postby momopi » Mon May 24, 2010 12:34 am

Winston wrote:Yeah but I'm not talking about frequency here. I'm talking about hunger and withdrawal symptoms if you aren't having sex, just like the hunger you'd feel if you didn't have food in one day.
I'm just saying that it's a natural thing, so why is it labeled as some addiction that needs to be cured?
Sure, some can go without sex and they don't mind. But not all. Why is that?


Someone who feels horny is not a sex addict. I'm not aware of any sex addiction counselors who'd label a horny 19 year old college student preoccupied with getting laid as a sex addict. If that was the case then every horny teenager must be a sex addict, which is not the case.

It does become a problem, if you're spending 12 hours a day surfing for pornography.

Monogamy is a personal choice. What you or anyone else choose to do with their life, is their business. There is no law or prohibition that says unmarried, consenting adults cannot hump each other to their heart's content here.

Marriage is a different story, from secular perspective it's a contract-guarantee that your spouse is actually having your children and not f*cking the mailman or your gardener Jose (paternity fraud), and for the wife, it means the husband is not having bastard children outside of marriage. Laws were passed to prevent bastard children from inheriting the estate and title, mainly to protect the heirs from a "proper wife".
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