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The Case for Life After Death

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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Winston
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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Winston » October 28th, 2018, 4:45 am

That's interesting. I didn't know Eben Alexander has a malpractice suit against him. And that he was paid 20k for a speaking conference. That's crazy. How did he get paid that much? Where did the money come from? Usually NDE authors don't get paid at all, they are only provided hotel accommodations and gas reimbursement. I invited Dr. Melvin Morse one time to speak at a UFO club in Bellingham, WA. He wrote many books about NDE's of children and lived nearby in Bellevue, WA. He didn't require any fee. There's a photo of me and him too. I should post it sometime.

Since medical doctors, especially surgeons, make a lot of money and have a high income, why would Dr. Alexander want or need to be paid so much like that? Doesn't he have any shame? He seems like a nice sincere guy.

Of course establishment media is going to say that NDE's are from oxygen deprived brains. They have an agenda and bias toward atheism and hive mind. They all lie and say that Princess Diana's driver was drunk too, even though there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, including video evidence, and they also refuse to tell the world that a civil jury officially ruled that she was the victim of an "unlawful killing". Only biased media would refuse to report on such an official ruling. So the media has a hive mind in that when one lies, they all lie together to collaborate. That was just one example. Thus they are very dishonest and evil. Hope the corporate media burns in hell. How do they sleep at night?

The reason the media has to be pro atheism is because America is primarily a consumer culture. Not a spiritual culture like cultures before America were. In a consumer culture, atheism has to be promoted, otherwise people will not live for consumerism and believe that the purpose of life is to "buy things" and the way to happiness is to "buy things" too. People who believe in God or are spiritual are not going to buy many things of course. So the media has to discourage that. That's it's function. Thus it is not neutral and objective.

Chris Carter has written two books about NDE's and the Afterlife. In them he debunks and goes over all the neurological arguments for NDE's. The media should take a note of his books and arguments. If anyone is interested here are the links to them.

https://www.amazon.com/Science-Afterlif ... B0098O9F32

https://www.amazon.com/Science-Near-Dea ... B00462RVEG
The scientific evidence for life after death

• Explains why near-death experiences (NDEs) offer evidence of an afterlife and discredits the psychological and physiological explanations for them

• Challenges materialist arguments against consciousness surviving death

• Examines ancient and modern accounts of NDEs from around the world, including China, India, and many from tribal societies such as the Native American and the Maori

Predating all organized religion, the belief in an afterlife is fundamental to the human experience and dates back at least to the Neanderthals. By the mid-19th century, however, spurred by the progress of science, many people began to question the existence of an afterlife, and the doctrine of materialism--which believes that consciousness is a creation of the brain--began to spread. Now, using scientific evidence, Chris Carter challenges materialist arguments against consciousness surviving death and shows how near-death experiences (NDEs) may truly provide a glimpse of an awaiting afterlife.

Using evidence from scientific studies, quantum mechanics, and consciousness research, Carter reveals how consciousness does not depend on the brain and may, in fact, survive the death of our bodies. Examining ancient and modern accounts of NDEs from around the world, including China, India, and tribal societies such as the Native American and the Maori, he explains how NDEs provide evidence of consciousness surviving the death of our bodies. He looks at the many psychological and physiological explanations for NDEs raised by skeptics--such as stress, birth memories, or oxygen starvation--and clearly shows why each of them fails to truly explain the NDE. Exploring the similarities between NDEs and visions experienced during actual death and the intersection of physics and consciousness, Carter uncovers the truth about mind, matter, and life after death.
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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Winston » October 28th, 2018, 4:52 am

A guy I knew before also wrote a debunking and critique of Dr. Susan Blackmore's book "Dying to Live" which supports the dying brain hypothesis of NDE's being a hallucination according to the atheist paradigm. Blackmore admitted she could not refute his debunking and arguments. See the links below. One of them is hosted on my other website too.

https://www.near-death.com/science/arti ... heory.html

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Critique_Blackmore.htm

A Critique of Susan Blackmore's "Dying to Live" and her Dying Brain Hypothesis
By Greg Stone
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Re: Re:

Post by Winston » October 28th, 2018, 5:07 am

Yohan wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 7:02 pm
TheLight954 wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 4:51 pm
Yet 18% people in cardiac arrest actually do have an experience and in many cases can accurately recount the events going on while they are "dead".
Again, there are people who awake in the middle of the "death", recount their experience, fall back asleep, and forget their experience. Their brain probably needs to take sufficiently less damage in order for the experience to be remembered.
These people are not really dead, the death is not like the body is fully dead within a few seconds, but the organs and other parts of the body die slowly, independent from each other, within considerably difference of time.
Skin, the largest organ will still be alive for several days, with nails growing, etc.

Dead is a person after you put the body into the fire in a crematory and collect the ashes
In this case you are really dead, and you will see then if there is any form of afterlife.

So far nobody could answer my question if there is an afterlife, with something like a soul outside of your body, does this soul have consciousness?

About myself, I am with Stephen Hawking, and I don't think he is wrong...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
the concept of an afterlife as a fairy story for people afraid of the dark
Yes and no. From my research, there are three parts of the soul or self. The ego dies at death and does not continue. The astral body or will continues on in the astral plane or physical world for a while and then dissipates. But the divine essence or higher self does continue on into an afterlife. So one third of your soul or self continues on after death, the other two thirds does not. That's what Theosophy teaches too, which I read in books by Madame Blavatsky - who spent many years in India and Tibet and learned her info from high level adepts and gurus. Chinese Taoism teaches this as well. So both atheists and spiritual/religious folks are partially right according to classical metaphysics and ancient teachings.

Here is a video lecture by a Taiwanese Taoism teacher who explains the three parts of your soul and how they work together, and the three types of ghosts too. He is speaking in Taiwanese, but there are English subs in the video that are easy to follow.



@momopi can you understand his Taiwanese? Lol

Btw, NDE's is just ONE line of evidence of the afterlife. There are multiple lines of other evidence with compelling cases too - such as reincarnation, ghosts, hauntings, visitations from the dead, mediums, seances, etc. See a list of them on Dr. Victor Zammit's website here:

http://www.victorzammit.com

Also here is a documentary series by Tom Harpur where he covers all the major lines of evidence for the afterlife, including NDE's, reincarnation cases, ghosts and hauntings, visitations from the dead, mediums and seances, etc. Many compelling cases and examples are presented. The series are combined at the link below and total about 2 and a half hours. It's well worth watching and covers many lines of evidence. A must see for anyone interested in the topic and seeking evidence of the afterlife. And is definitely something to consider.



@jamesbond have you seen these documentaries too?

@Aron what's your take on all this above? But before you answer, can you watch the videos linked above and explore the links I gave too, and not be lazy? Thanks.
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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Yohan » October 28th, 2018, 6:07 am

Winston wrote:
October 28th, 2018, 4:45 am
That's interesting. I didn't know Eben Alexander has a malpractice suit against him. And that he was paid 20k for a speaking conference. That's crazy. How did he get paid that much? Where did the money come from?
I can only comment what I see from some internet sources. He had several lawsuits regarding malpractice settled against money in return of silence, hospitals suspended him from positions and/or terminated his employment, he was also investigated, subject to after-training and fined by the Virginia Board of Medicine.

http://ebenalexander.com/resources/faq/#toggle-id-6
The lawsuit settled for ~20% of the original ask, certainly not a payout acknowledging “malpractice.” As stated previously, settlements are made to avoid the steep costs of litigation, not as any admission of guilt. I continued with my state medical licenses and board certification fully intact.
In one case he was facing a lawsuit claiming USD 3 million for malpractice, he settled it out of court and according to his homepage he paid about 20 %, this should be around USD 600.000,-.

It seems he is not working as a medical doctor anymore. However he was able to keep his medical license.

About the money he is earning well now because of his writings and speeches, which have a strong religious character, so I guess most money is coming from Christian Churches...for example he writes:

http://ebenalexander.com/resources/faq/#toggle-id-4
My current views are that Jesus came here to reveal that we are all divinely connected to all fellow sentient beings, and to God which is consistent with my experience and also supported by scripture. As such, we are all eternal spiritual beings, no matter our beliefs. The unconditional love of that God force has infinite power to heal. The greatest value of authentic Christianity, from my perspective, is an absolute inclusiveness that acknowledges all beings as children of God.
http://ebenalexander.com/resources/faq/#toggle-id-2
Meditation and prayer help us move beyond our human dimension. However, I cannot overstate the fact that our earthly language cannot begin to describe the vastness and intimacy, the power and mercy, the all-knowing and all-loving character of God and Consciousness.
And he is not alone... it seems they are three of them, this seems to be their company, also he says, his books are not always written solely by himself.
https://www.sacredacoustics.com/pages/our-story

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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Winston » October 28th, 2018, 7:51 am

But NDE's don't support Christianity. Not the evangelical modern American version of it. Because in literal Christian doctrine, if you die and you're not saved, then you go straight to hell or to a place awaiting the judgment day, where an angel will check to see if you're written in the book of life or not, and if not, because you didn't accept Christ, then you go straight to hell. No exceptions. No matter how good you were. It's pure black and white literal.

What that means is that in their theology, if you have an NDE and you're not a Christian and aren't saved, then you should go straight to hell, not heaven. Not see any white light or angels. However, most NDE's, even among those who are not religious, are positive and involve a loving white light and angels. That cannot be if Christian fundamentalist doctrine is literally true. So NDE's do not fit the fundie paradigm at all. And is evidence to the contrary.

However, if you are the type of Christian that believes that God judges each person on their works and behavior, rather than their faith or belief, and you believe that it's possible for non-Christians to go to heaven if they were good people who did good works (which I hear is what most European Christians believed for the last 2,000 years) then NDE's may not necessarily conflict with your beliefs.
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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Yohan » October 28th, 2018, 8:42 am

Winston wrote:
October 28th, 2018, 7:51 am
But NDE's don't support Christianity. Not the evangelical modern American version of it.
-----
However, if you are the type of Christian that believes that God judges each person on their works and behavior, rather than their faith or belief, and you believe that it's possible for non-Christians to go to heaven if they were good people who did good works (which I hear is what most European Christians believed for the last 2,000 years) then NDE's may not necessarily conflict with your beliefs.
http://www.christchurchcharlotte.org/se ... alexander/
Native North Carolinian Eben Alexander is the author of the best-selling "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife." The book describes his 2008 near-death experience and asserts that science can and will determine that heaven really does exist. Dr. Alexander visited Christ Church just as his book was topping the best-seller list. Over a thousand people filled All Saints' Hall and the Gallery to hear Dr. Alexander talk with The Reverend Chip Edens. (March 2013)
Listen to the VIDEO!
from his own homepage
http://ebenalexander.com/faq-2-returning-to-church/
RETURNING TO CHURCH
SPIRITUALITY
FAQ: What was it like to return to church after you healed from your coma?

Like many people, I went to church for a lot of reasons, including community, charity, social involvement and interesting sermons. The first time I stepped foot in church after waking up, I was overwhelmed by gratitude. I was invited to light an advent candle and the spiritually transformative awakening I felt in that religious setting shocked me into the reality of the ideals religion points to. I felt keenly aware of God’s presence, and thus—immediately, necessarily—keenly aware of God’s love. It’s incredibly moving, and it’s just one of the ways my experience helped me understand the fundamental truths that underlie all religions.
I am sure, in USA you will find plenty of religious bigots, who like to hear such stuff from Eben Alexander, and are willing to pay for it...

Not all of them, some church people remain sceptical of course....

https://www.epm.org/blog/2013/Aug/14/proof-heaven
Proof of Heaven and the Dangerous Downward Spiral of My-Visit-to-Heaven Books
By Randy Alcorn | August 14, 2013
Randy Alcorn

I'm the author of over fifty books and the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries. I love Jesus, my wife Nanci, and our daughters, sons and five grandsons!

Dr. Eben Alexander’s Proof of Heaven has now been on the New York Times Bestseller List for 41 weeks and is estimated to have sold over two million copies. With a lot of discussion going on about the book, and after being asked several times what I thought of it, it seemed time to blog about it.

My first thought is that it appears Christians have become increasingly gullible and accepting of these personal accounts of near death experiences. First came books by believing evangelicals with mostly good theology (Don Piper’s 90 Minutes in Heaven and Todd Burpo’s To Heaven and Back), then came books by evangelicals with some good theology but some very bad as well (Mary Neal’s To Heaven and Back). In my opinion, people have now been set up to believe books with utterly bad theology (such as Dr. Alexander’s Proof of Heaven).

Not only is the theology bad, but others are now coming forward contradicting Alexander’s account of what happened in the hospital. It’s mostly small things, like what the weather was that week and that it’d be impossible for Alexander to cry out “God help me” since there was a tube down his throat. But, significantly, Dr. Alexander didn’t slip into a coma void of brain activity due to meningitis, but was in a medically induced coma where his brain retained consciousness. So, there is no compelling reason to believe it was anything more than a powerful and vivid dream.
Full text click on the link above.

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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Winston » October 28th, 2018, 10:00 am

What did Eben Alexander do to lose his job as a surgeon and be involved in malpractice lawsuits? Did he do anything wrong or unethical? If so, what exactly?

Either way, even if he's not a real surgeon and lied about his credentials and did some unethical things in his profession before, still that doesn't invalidate his NDE's or his claims of what he experienced. Many people have NDE's and claim that what they experienced changed their lives. Most of them are ordinary honest people who have nothing to gain from lying. Dr. Raymond Moody has documented many of these genuine NDE cases since 1975 when his book "Life After Life" came out.

So Dr. Alexander's case is nothing new or special. So why should we be skeptical of him? Even if he's trying to cash in on his NDE, that doesn't mean it didn't happen the way he described right? Especially when many others have experienced the same.

Yes, not all NDE's are consistent. But some are consistent. If you watch enough NDE documentaries, you will see that. It's interesting, but there are still many mysteries about it and unanswered questions. Also there are too many New Age cliches attached to it.

Have you read or seen the classic NDE accounts like that of Betty Eadier or Dannion Brinkley? They also wrote books about it and been on many NDE documentaries and have many fans too. Apparently they cashed in on their NDE's too, but it doesn't mean their experience wasn't genuine.

Right @Yohan? So what's your point? No one is perfect. No one is a saint. None of us here are saints either. So what? We all must have our flaws, otherwise we wouldn't be here and be human.
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Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by TheLight954 » October 29th, 2018, 5:22 am

Winston wrote:
October 28th, 2018, 4:45 am

Of course establishment media is going to say that NDE's are from oxygen deprived brains. They have an agenda and bias toward atheism and hive mind. They all lie and say that Princess Diana's driver was drunk too, even though there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, including video evidence, and they also refuse to tell the world that a civil jury officially ruled that she was the victim of an "unlawful killing". Only biased media would refuse to report on such an official ruling. So the media has a hive mind in that when one lies, they all lie together to collaborate. That was just one example. Thus they are very dishonest and evil. Hope the corporate media burns in hell. How do they sleep at night?
Actually, the mind works much simpler than this. Most people just go along with dogma/hive mind as you said. There really isn't any elaborate reason for lying other than to reinforce their worldview, which they got through blind dogmatic beliefs reinforced by society's vibe. There might be a vague conspiracy consciousness, but not one of an organized cartoon villain conspiracy as you seem to indicate in your conspiracy reports, which goes against human nature (often people don't tell outright lies, only half-truths, and people usually first convince themselves of their misleading statements).

Ironically enough, Michael Shermer said "The problem with smart people is that they find smart ways to justify conclusions they arrived at in non-smart ways". It seems like he accurately described himself and other (pseudo)skeptics. There is nothing evil about them, just dogmatic and in the case of the vocal minority (such as Dawkins/Shermer), egoistic and arrogant. Obviously, the media skeptics have fame/reputation to game, but I've debated a lot of intelligent skeptics who have no fame or reputation to gain. Weirdly enough, they often use the exact same words in their arguments, as if they have a telepathic hive mind.

The dogmatic things these people believe are:
1.All official events are correct until the official media admits otherwise. (meaning that they would've believed Gulf of Tonkin as recently as 20 years ago)
2.Capitalism is better than communism, but big government/welfare and big regulation is good.
3.Evolution is a given (though it contradicts order; random mutations at the cellular level would usually come at the expense of the individual; evolution at the individual level has to happen at the expense of the species due to tragedy of the commons; and evolution at the species level would come at the expense of the ecosystem). Even though this is the case, eugenics, which logically follows from evolution, is somehow bad.
4.Nihilism but you create your own selfish values (even though they never actually phrase it this way). This is of course dangerous to the higher order and would lead society to collapse in the long run. Just imagine if each cell was selfish; this would quickly lead to cancer.
5.The intelligence agencies are good. American exists to promote freedom and democracy in the world. Democracy only "works" if the establishment gets their way (again, even though they never phrase it like that).
6.Religion is somehow bad because of the people it killed in the world (ignoring the fact that religion is often used as a justification and not really the real reason). Using their same logic, democracy is also evil because America killed millions in the name of "democracy", which is absurd because ideologies are just ideologies and not murder weapons by themselves.
7.Our world is better than before. True, life expectancy has increased, and I would've died an infant mortality without technology. However, people are actually living shorter lives than before, due to being locked away at work like a cog for most of their lives. (the bushmen hunter-gatherers complained at having to work 3 hours per day to find food during a drought).
8.Our world is more peaceful than before. Closer examination of this data shows a cycle between peace and war, with the 1930-40s being the most violent and the 90s being equivalent to the low end of the cycle, around in par with 1730 and 1491. Even though the data only goes up to 2000, violence likely increased since then due to the middle east conflicts.
9.Technology brings progress. Not always, in some cases technology ends up enslaving people due to addiction, such as phones.
10.Governments are incompetent, so therefore conspiracies are impossible. Their premise is wrong. To see just how competent governments can be, look no further than China. Democracies are incompetent. But the unelected part of the government is extremely competent.
11.Human nature is selfish. In reality, human nature is much less from "nature" than we think it is (and less heritable than IQ for sure), as we have free will. Obviously, you're gonna end up with selfish people in a system that divides people starting from the education system with their grades, and their status and what they buy. To justify their statement, they claim that all altruistic acts are an act of selfishness, which seems like a post hoc excuse. It also feels helplessly circular because they use this dogmatic view to justify your own selfishness and somehow see you as less if you're not selfish.
12.The brain creates consciousness. Even though they have literally no way to back this up, they consider claims or paranormal extraordinary, but they do not consider this claim that matter can give rise to consciousness extraordinary.
13.Attacking the mainstream media is attacking the freedom of the press Somehow, these people twisted the definition of free speech, insisting that when Trump attacks the media, Trump's violating the media's free speech (when in reality it's him exercising his freedom to criticize the media). Moreover, the media that Trump's attacking isn't even free to begin with (owned mostly by select few corporations/billionaires).

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