Update: WE ARE BACK ONLINE! The Forum has been RESTORED! See announcement here. If there are any problems or issues, please report them in the announcement thread. Note: Unfortunately I was not able to import the posts made after the crash (on Sept 18) into the restored forum. However, I exported all the posts submitted after the crash into a Word file, so you can download it, find your posts and re-post them. Download the posts here. Thanks for your patience and welcome back everyone!



Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.



View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Mobile Friendly Theme


The Case for Life After Death

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 28278
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Winston » May 23rd, 2012, 7:25 am

I have a question that hasn't been addressed by NDE researchers.

During sleep and anesthesia, a person has no consciousness of the passage of time. So if consciousness is eternal, how can it be shut down like that? If consciousness can be shut down, then doesn't it follow that it can be destroyed too?

Also, if only some have NDE's and not others, could it mean that only some will have an afterlife but others won't?

These questions are never asked in interviews.

Thanks,
Winston
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

Ian Shaw
Freshman Poster
Posts: 4
Joined: May 23rd, 2012, 6:30 am
Location: Australia

Post by Ian Shaw » May 23rd, 2012, 10:54 am

Rock wrote:What about life before birth?

If we really survive death somehow, I wonder whether or not our memory of our current life will be erased. I mean, if we survive death, it seems natural that we also existed before birth. But that memory is gone, at least for the period we are on earth.
Damn right Rock, I've been on about that very angle for a long, long time.

lavezzi
Junior Poster
Posts: 707
Joined: July 12th, 2011, 6:38 pm
Location: Republic of Éire

Post by lavezzi » May 23rd, 2012, 11:59 am

Speculating about the nature/existence of the divine/afterlife is attempting to adopt a belief. Beliefs are rooted in desire (desiring a certain outcome of that which we cannot be sure of), and desire is what keeps us trapped in ego (hence suffering).

The mechanism which all living beings share is to seek survival and avoid death. Humans have advanced brains which have throughout our evolution led to us devising technology that has made survival a non issue in most of our daily lives. Despite this, our mechanisms for survival seem to have remained intact, but we have substituted our natural mechanism of seeking survival for an unnatural mechanism of seeking fulfillment. Because we have believed the idea we are unfulfilled as we are into existence, we have believed suffering into existence also, which is the only reason we are experiencing it. This very much appears to be the nature of the current human condition, regardless of whether or not there is a divine purpose to it. If there is a divine purpose to our existence, it would seem that our lives are a kind of a test for us to overcome this trap of needlessly seeking fulfillment which so many humans fall into, by realizing we are already whole. This is done by connecting our identities with our awareness, rather than with our physical bodies (which creates a false self).

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 28278
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Winston » September 29th, 2012, 10:55 am

Check out this Atheist Neurosurgeon who discovered proof of the Afterlife during his NDE!

http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/book

PROOF OF HEAVEN BY EBEN ALEXANDER, MD

PROOF OF HEAVEN WILL BE AVAILABLE ON OCTOBER 23, 2012 IN NORTH AMERICA

BOOK

A SCIENTIST’S CASE FOR THE AFTERLIFE:

Thousands of people have had near-death experiences, but scientists have argued that they are impossible. Dr. Eben Alexander was one of those scientists. A highly trained neurosurgeon, Alexander knew that NDEs feel real, but are simply fantasies produced by brains under extreme stress.

Then, Dr. Alexander’s own brain was attacked by a rare illness. The part of the brain that controls thought and emotion—and in essence makes us human—shut down completely. For seven days he lay in a coma. Then, as his doctors considered stopping treatment, Alexander’s eyes popped open. He had come back.

Alexander’s recovery is a medical miracle. But the real miracle of his story lies elsewhere. While his body lay in coma, Alexander journeyed beyond this world and encountered an angelic being who guided him into the deepest realms of super-physical existence. There he met, and spoke with, the Divine source of the universe itself.

Alexander’s story is not a fantasy. Before he underwent his journey, he could not reconcile his knowledge of neuroscience with any belief in heaven, God, or the soul. Today Alexander is a doctor who believes that true health can be achieved only when we realize that God and the soul are real and that death is not the end of personal existence but only a transition.

This story would be remarkable no matter who it happened to. That it happened to Dr. Alexander makes it revolutionary. No scientist or person of faith will be able to ignore it. Reading it will change your life.

Interview on Skeptiko:

http://www.skeptiko.com/154-neurosurgeo ... xperience/

Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 28278
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case for Life After Death

Post by Winston » October 21st, 2018, 9:55 pm

Haha this is funny.

https://www.meaningfullife.com/webinars ... t-webinar/

"Where does the soul go to when you die? It’s a very distorted question. The premise is false. Imagine a discussion between a refrigerator and electricity. The refrigerator is plugged in and it’s cooling food. Now suddenly the plug is pulled and the refrigerator says to the electricity, “Where do you go when the plug is pulled?” Electricity says, “What do you mean, ‘where did I go’? Where did you come from? You’re a little box that was just created in the last century; I’ve been around from the beginning of time and I’m everywhere. They created a box to hold me. You’ve contained me. You’ve confined me in your box and you’ve become a cooling agent.”"
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Yohan
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3306
Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 6:05 am
Location: Okayama, JAPAN

Re:

Post by Yohan » October 22nd, 2018, 5:42 am

Winston wrote:
September 29th, 2012, 10:55 am
Check out this Atheist Neurosurgeon who discovered proof of the Afterlife during his NDE!
His so-called 'proof of afterlife' is clearly untrustworthy.

This man was terminated/suspended from various hospital functions as a medical doctor and was facing several lawsuits concerning malpractice.

Out of money and job he became a writer after surviving bacterial meningitis. His stories are making money - nothing to do with an afterlife but it's about a hallucinating brain before he was placed in a coma by medical doctors at that time.

User avatar
Winston
Site Admin
Posts: 28278
Joined: August 18th, 2007, 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by Winston » October 22nd, 2018, 7:49 am

Yohan wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 5:42 am
Winston wrote:
September 29th, 2012, 10:55 am
Check out this Atheist Neurosurgeon who discovered proof of the Afterlife during his NDE!
His so-called 'proof of afterlife' is clearly untrustworthy.

This man was terminated/suspended from various hospital functions as a medical doctor and was facing several lawsuits concerning malpractice.

Out of money and job he became a writer after surviving bacterial meningitis. His stories are making money - nothing to do with an afterlife but it's about a hallucinating brain before he was placed in a coma by medical doctors at that time.
Do you have any evidence or sources to support that? No one makes money by being an NDE survivor or author. Even authors don't make much money anymore unless they are huge like the Harry Potter author. Do you say the same about Dannion Brinkly? Eben Alexander seems honest and credible. Plus his story i s not unique. There are countless like it.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!

Join my Ukrainian/Russian Women Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!

"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne

User avatar
Yohan
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3306
Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 6:05 am
Location: Okayama, JAPAN

Re: Re:

Post by Yohan » October 22nd, 2018, 1:57 pm

Winston wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 7:49 am
Do you have any evidence or sources to support that?
.....
Eben Alexander seems honest and credible. Plus his story i s not unique. There are countless like it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_(author)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -coma.html
Was 'Proof of Heaven' author hallucinating? Critics take aim at Harvard-educated doctor's claim he experienced the after life

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -coma.html
'Proof of Heaven' doctor faced a $3million malpractice lawsuit when he fell into a coma
Dr Eben Alexander was tied for the highest number of medical malpractice suits at the time that he fell into a coma following an E. coli infection
He wrote a book in 2012 about his experience 'seeing the other side'
He touted the book as the work of a neurosurgeon, but he hadn't practiced surgery- let alone neurosurgery- for four years prior to the publication


https://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2013/ ... e-speaker/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Sacks
Oliver Sacks, the world-famous neurologist, psychologist and author, whose book “Awakening” was made into a movie in 1990, said in an article, “Seeing God in the Third Millennium” in the Dec. 12, 2012, issue of the Atlantic Monthly, “To deny the possibility of any natural explanation for an NDA, as Dr. Alexander does, is more than unscientific – it is antiscientific. It precludes the scientific investigation of such states.”

Winston: No one makes money by being an NDE survivor or author
https://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2013/ ... e-speaker/

It should be noted that Dr. Alexander has never released his hospital medical records to public scrutiny.

Dr. Alexander required a payment of $20,000 for his visit to Chestnut Hill. I called Simon and Schuster, who oversee his speaking engagements, and verified the payment. Dr. Alexander has become wealthy and world-famous because of his book and his many public appearances.

https://www.medicalbag.com/vital-signs/ ... le/472451/

Nice reading link above for details...


The instant best-seller's claims
are being questioned

Proof of Heaven, the story of neurosurgeon Eben Alexander's self-professed trip to the afterlife and a New York Times best-seller about the joy of being dead and coming back, addresses a basic human question: What happens after we die? This perennial question continues to provoke philosophical, religious, and existential interest.
.....
A History of Malpractice
.....
The premise that someone might use his authority as a neurosurgeon to market a book about his journey to the afterlife is alarming. To claim that there is nothing in neuroscience to explain his experience is like saying there's nothing in physics to explain some newly observed phenomenon. To be deceptive and say there's nothing in science that can explain it—and subsequently use your own authoritative degree as a practitioner to back it up—is a classic ruse of a con artist.
.....
Where's the Proof?

In the scientific world, data have disproved the validity of subjective NDEs. Most believe that a brain in an oxygen-deprived state of abnormal energetic balance is simply not a reliable source. A story that promises hope and unimaginable rewards, from a neurosurgeon of all people, is dubious at best. Most scientists in the world would tell us that he was in a dream-like state induced by coma-enhancing drugs. Perhaps Dr. Alexander, being a board-certified authority, should provide evidence for his claims. Until he does, his story will fall on deaf ears in the scientific community. Scientists generally don't listen to each other directly, they review each other's evidence—or proof.

TheLight954
Freshman Poster
Posts: 53
Joined: September 12th, 2016, 1:53 am

Re: Re:

Post by TheLight954 » October 24th, 2018, 3:04 am

Yohan wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 1:57 pm

In the scientific world, data have disproved the validity of subjective NDEs. Most believe that a brain in an oxygen-deprived state of abnormal energetic balance is simply not a reliable source. A story that promises hope and unimaginable rewards, from a neurosurgeon of all people, is dubious at best. Most scientists in the world would tell us that he was in a dream-like state induced by coma-enhancing drugs. Perhaps Dr. Alexander, being a board-certified authority, should provide evidence for his claims. Until he does, his story will fall on deaf ears in the scientific community. Scientists generally don't listen to each other directly, they review each other's evidence—or proof.
No data hasn't disproven NDEs. All the theories to the contrary (such as The Dying Brain Hypothesis) are mere speculations with no facts to back them up. They are based on circular reasoning (because the brain creates consciousness, therefore the experience must be fully explained by the brain, despite no plausible mechanism or no experiences correlating the each feature of a NDE with a particular brain defect). In fact, data shows that NDE memories are more real than normal memories, ruling out the case that they are a confabulation by a deprived oxygen brain.

A majority of the scientists are just normal hard-working people trying to make a living. They are just indifferent to paranormal phenomenon such as NDEs because it doesn't have anything to do with their job, and it also could cause ostracization if they openly come out for the paranormal. That's the real reason their claims fall on deaf ears. Also, when money is involved and people are trying to make a living, all integrity and "how things ought to be" goes down the drain. See: half the findings are probably fake. When people are in pressure to publish to keep their status/job and make a living, when there are socially acceptable conclusions, when the experiment is very expensive or complicated to replicate, and when the experiment is utterly significant to everyone's day to day life (and thus people cannot check your findings against their own experience), integrity goes down. If our modern day economists are no better than blind monkeys, then the same lack of integrity could be true for other sciences.

How the hell do you provide evidence for a subjective experience? We know that his brain was flat-lined during his NDE. Steven Novella makes the laughable claim that he experience the NDE before and after his flat-line, which falls flat because that would mean that he would have discontinuous experiences.

People generally don't have money to gain or careers to advance by pushing their NDEs. Usually you're ostracized by some people for reporting your NDE since they think you're nuts. On the contrary, career skeptics have plenty of reputation, fame, and money to gain by ridiculing NDEs, regardless of what they actually believe deep down. Skeptics also have an ego motive to ridicule NDEs as it allows them to express their inferiory complex out loud, while sharing a NDE is usually humiliating and embarrasing to the experiencer.
Yohan wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 1:57 pm
The premise that someone might use his authority as a neurosurgeon to market a book about his journey to the afterlife is alarming. To claim that there is nothing in neuroscience to explain his experience is like saying there's nothing in physics to explain some newly observed phenomenon. To be deceptive and say there's nothing in science that can explain it—and subsequently use your own authoritative degree as a practitioner to back it up—is a classic ruse of a con artist.
You're completely misunderstanding what's going on. He's using his authority as a neurosurgeon to show that despite being in the field that's most against the possibility of afterlife, he still can't explain his experience in materialist reductionist terms. And if he had no brain activity during his experience, then so be it.
Yohan wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 1:57 pm
Most scientists in the world would tell us that he was in a dream-like state induced by coma-enhancing drugs.
Dreams and NDEs are vastly different in many ways. A dreamer tends to exhibit below normal awareness levels, while a NDE experiencer experiences hyperawareness, as if the normal life were a dream! Also, nobody knows what dreams actually represent. While a lot of the dreams seem to be just random thoughts (though weirdly most my dreams are completely unrelated to anything in real life around me or my experience) there might be something more to some of the random symbols. After all, if dreams were really random thoughts, then I'd likely be dreaming about which college I go to, what house I get, what job I have, but I dream of things far disconnected from what I think of during the day. Furthermore, after hallucinations it usually becomes clear that you hallucinated and you forget the experience as insignificant, but after NDEs it remains vivid in your head years later AND has extreme life transformative effects (see: Howard Storm).

Also, against the notion that NDEs are invalidated because drugs can reproduce some of the features, the cause of the NDE is irrelevant to whether they are real afterlife experiences or not. Here's a brief rebuttal by Sylvian Poirier:
In any of their argumentative texts (that I know of) against the reality of the perceptions out of the body in near death experiences, skeptics have put forward the observation that these perceptions were "reproduced" by drugs or special stimulations of the brain, or the like. They presented this as an evidence that out of body perceptions were hallucinations, by arguing that the "natural" NDE were the same perceptions as these stimulated ones, and assuming that these stimulated ones are mere hallucinations, that would be a "model" of hallucination for the spontaneous NDEs.

A rational argument based on an observation, when addressing a competition between 2 worldviews (once assumed that these worldviews are well-defined enough as concerns the observation being discussed), is a matter of how it affects the ratio of probabilties between these views, whatever the a priori ratio of probabilities that one could give them.

As we explained with classical probabilities, the effect of an observation on the competition between two hypothesis, consists in a multiplication of the ratio of their probabilities by p/p' where p is the probability for the observation to have given the perceived result under one hypothesis, and p' the one under the other hypothesis. Thus it can significantly promote one hypothesis, only if the probability of the oberved result under the other hypothesis is close to zero.

In particular, in order for the observation of "out of body sensations" under drugs or specific brain stimulations, to be an argument against the "real out of body" interpretation of NDEs, this would require this result to have a probability close to zero under this hypothesis.

But, under the "real out of body" interpretation of NDE, there is absolutely no surprise that such experiments on the brain can really drive the soul out of it and thus produce real out of body perceptions in this way.
Strangely, when putting forward their experience of stimulated out of body perception as a "model" for NDE, they did not even consider any question of how it can be at odds or not with the real out of body hypothesis. So they did not contradict either that its probability for their observation can be 1. In fact, all they showed is their a priori unability or unwillingness to dare thinking about the view they are claiming to oppose.

Conclusion: skeptics are ridiculizing themselves by their way of showing that they don't even understand how to assess the weight of a rational argument based on an observation.

User avatar
Yohan
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3306
Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 6:05 am
Location: Okayama, JAPAN

Re: Re:

Post by Yohan » October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am

TheLight954 wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 3:04 am
You're completely misunderstanding what's going on. He's using his authority as a neurosurgeon...

He had no brain activity during his experience..

How the hell do you provide evidence for a subjective experience?
Well, if you show up claiming there is an afterlife, you should offer some evidence for it.
He says that 'consciousness is independent of the brain' - but so far there is nothing to support this claim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_prob ... sciousness

Authority as a neurosurgeon? You should add that he was kicked out of hospitals and faced lawsuits because of malpractice.
There are other neurosurgeons, who seriously doubt his story.
Why to ignore their opinion? For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Sacks
In November 2012 Sacks's book Hallucinations was published. In it he examined why ordinary people can sometimes experience hallucinations and challenges the stigma associated with the word. He explained: "Hallucinations don't belong wholly to the insane. Much more commonly, they are linked to sensory deprivation, intoxication, illness or injury."[44] He also considers the less well known Charles Bonnet syndrome...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_re ... ucinations


No brain activity? This is what he says, however the medical doctor treating him tells you a different story.

It is interesting to point out that Dr. Alexander has never released his hospital medical records to public scrutiny. Why not? What is he hiding?

Critics investigating his case noticed that Dr. Alexander writes about screaming out ‘God help me!’, a claim contradicted by the emergency room physician treating him that day.

Dr. Laura Potter said she had no recollection of him crying out, plus she had intubated him – making it impossible for him to speak.

Alexander also writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of E. coli bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while Dr. Potter says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercov ... 69753c1fd6

Anyone who claims he died and went to heaven, met God and then came back to tell the tale is apt to encounter some skepticism. But nearly 2 million people found neurosurgeon Eben Alexander credible enough to buy "Proof of Heaven," a memoir about his adventures in the afterlife.
.....
Alexander, Dittrich shows, has a long history of rewriting events after the fact to make them suit his ends. His liberties with the truth range from the humorously trivial (changing the weather during the week he was in a coma for dramatic effect) to the deeply unethical (falsifying medical records to cover up the fact that he'd operated at the wrong site on a patient's spine).

It's not just his background. Alexander also made up or changed details of the episode that makes up "Proof of Heaven's" narrative, including the nature of his coma: Alexander writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of severe bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while a doctor who cared for him says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.

TheLight954
Freshman Poster
Posts: 53
Joined: September 12th, 2016, 1:53 am

Re: Re:

Post by TheLight954 » October 25th, 2018, 5:25 am

Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am

Well, if you show up claiming there is an afterlife, you should offer some evidence for it.
You never answered my question. How would someone with a subjective experience provide evidence for it? After all, the afterlife is proven to him/her already, and doesn't need confirmation from skeptics.

Anyway, to me, the evidence is sufficient. I already explained last post why they cannot be after-the-fact confabulations, and other anomalies such as people accurately recounting events during their flat-line brain, etc. seem to point the evidence in one direction. Yes, not a lot of people near-death actually experience a NDE, but that's because they forget their experience (as shown by certain examples where the patient wakes up in the middle, recounts his NDE, then "dies" again, then forgets everything). Certain NDEs have brought back scientific advancements, such as Mellon-Thomas Benedict.

The matter in the brain isn't even well defined for the most part, as the locations of the individual electrons aren't well defined. I don't know how such matter can create consciousness.
Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am
He says that 'consciousness is independent of the brain' - but so far there is nothing to support this claim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_prob ... sciousness
Yet neuroscientists claim consciousness is an emergent property of the brain without evidence, and still get treated seriously as scientists. How would matter create consciousness? I assume the negative without any proposed mechanism. There is tons of evidence contradicting the standard material view..

The hard problem of consciousness is based on a flawed premise, and easily resolved if you consider that consciousness is independent of the brain (i.e. one theory is consciousness is equivalent with the ability to cause collapse in quantum mechanics).
Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am
Authority as a neurosurgeon? You should add that he was kicked out of hospitals and faced lawsuits because of malpractice.
There are other neurosurgeons, who seriously doubt his story.
Why to ignore their opinion? For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Sacks
In November 2012 Sacks's book Hallucinations was published. In it he examined why ordinary people can sometimes experience hallucinations and challenges the stigma associated with the word. He explained: "Hallucinations don't belong wholly to the insane. Much more commonly, they are linked to sensory deprivation, intoxication, illness or injury."[44] He also considers the less well known Charles Bonnet syndrome...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_re ... ucinations
Yes, hallucinations occur, that doesn't mean that all NDEs are merely hallucinations. One doesn't simply get a hyperaware life-transformative experience (more transformative than rape) from an oxygen-deprived brain.
Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am
No brain activity? This is what he says, however the medical doctor treating him tells you a different story.
And even Steven Novella, one of the hardcore skeptics, agrees with the flatline record, which is why he tried to construct an explanation consistent with flat-line (that he experienced his NDE before and after the flatline).
Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am
It is interesting to point out that Dr. Alexander has never released his hospital medical records to public scrutiny. Why not? What is he hiding?

Critics investigating his case noticed that Dr. Alexander writes about screaming out ‘God help me!’, a claim contradicted by the emergency room physician treating him that day.

Dr. Laura Potter said she had no recollection of him crying out, plus she had intubated him – making it impossible for him to speak.

Alexander also writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of E. coli bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while Dr. Potter says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercov ... 69753c1fd6

Anyone who claims he died and went to heaven, met God and then came back to tell the tale is apt to encounter some skepticism. But nearly 2 million people found neurosurgeon Eben Alexander credible enough to buy "Proof of Heaven," a memoir about his adventures in the afterlife.
.....
Alexander, Dittrich shows, has a long history of rewriting events after the fact to make them suit his ends. His liberties with the truth range from the humorously trivial (changing the weather during the week he was in a coma for dramatic effect) to the deeply unethical (falsifying medical records to cover up the fact that he'd operated at the wrong site on a patient's spine).

It's not just his background. Alexander also made up or changed details of the episode that makes up "Proof of Heaven's" narrative, including the nature of his coma: Alexander writes that he slipped into the coma as a result of severe bacterial meningitis and had no higher brain activity, while a doctor who cared for him says the coma was medically induced and the patient was conscious, though hallucinating.
The end of the website says:
I wrote a truthful account of my experiences in PROOF OF HEAVEN and have acknowledged in the book both my professional and personal accomplishments and my setbacks. I stand by every word in this book and have made its message the purpose of my life. Esquire’s cynical article distorts the facts of my 25-year career as a neurosurgeon and is a textbook example of how unsupported assertions and cherry-picked information can be assembled at the expense of the truth.

Maybe he's covering things up because small things are embarrassing? Kavanaugh was embarrassed by drinking alcohol underaged. I white lie a lot to my parents about homework stuff. Trump didn't release his tax returns. Clinton didn't want her emails released. People white lie about personal things ALL THE TIME. Most famous people have something really embarrassing about their personal lives, and that's totally fine.

At the end of the day we don't really know what the truth is. Yes, Alexander might be exaggerating a lot of his claims, though they seem reasonable and agree with most the NDErs. Yes, Alexander might have wanted to get famous, though it seems highly doubtful that someone with unethical to borderline-criminal activities would want to make himself public. It's like someone who figured out a smart hack who hacked millions of people's credit cards secretly suddenly coming outa bout the hack.

User avatar
Yohan
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3306
Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 6:05 am
Location: Okayama, JAPAN

Re: Re:

Post by Yohan » October 25th, 2018, 3:31 pm

TheLight954 wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 5:25 am
Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am

Well, if you show up claiming there is an afterlife, you should offer some evidence for it.
You never answered my question. How would someone with a subjective experience provide evidence for it?
You are proven to be correct with your 'experience' if you are able to reproduce it in the presence of witnesses, or if other people are able to re-enact your experience.

This is not the case, despite there are thousands of people who have to be sent into a coma and they awake without any idea what happened during that time.

It is so obvious that such people like this guy and some others like him are telling stories to make money out of it.

I have seen Jesus or seen the hell, I wrote a book, buy it, or I have seen something and now I know something and I am a prophet of a new religion - happens all the time.

TheLight954
Freshman Poster
Posts: 53
Joined: September 12th, 2016, 1:53 am

Re: Re:

Post by TheLight954 » October 25th, 2018, 4:51 pm

Yohan wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 3:31 pm
TheLight954 wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 5:25 am
Yohan wrote:
October 24th, 2018, 6:12 am

Well, if you show up claiming there is an afterlife, you should offer some evidence for it.
You never answered my question. How would someone with a subjective experience provide evidence for it?
You are proven to be correct with your 'experience' if you are able to reproduce it in the presence of witnesses, or if other people are able to re-enact your experience.

This is not the case, despite there are thousands of people who have to be sent into a coma and they awake without any idea what happened during that time.

It is so obvious that such people like this guy and some others like him are telling stories to make money out of it.

I have seen Jesus or seen the hell, I wrote a book, buy it, or I have seen something and now I know something and I am a prophet of a new religion - happens all the time.
Yet 18% people in cardiac arrest actually do have an experience and in many cases can accurately recount the events going on while they are "dead".

Again, there are people who awake in the middle of the "death", recount their experience, fall back asleep, and forget their experience. Their brain probably needs to take sufficiently less damage in order for the experience to be remembered.

User avatar
Yohan
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 3306
Joined: April 3rd, 2014, 6:05 am
Location: Okayama, JAPAN

Re: Re:

Post by Yohan » October 25th, 2018, 7:02 pm

TheLight954 wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 4:51 pm
Yet 18% people in cardiac arrest actually do have an experience and in many cases can accurately recount the events going on while they are "dead".
Again, there are people who awake in the middle of the "death", recount their experience, fall back asleep, and forget their experience. Their brain probably needs to take sufficiently less damage in order for the experience to be remembered.
These people are not really dead, the death is not like the body is fully dead within a few seconds, but the organs and other parts of the body die slowly, independent from each other, within considerably difference of time.
Skin, the largest organ will still be alive for several days, with nails growing, etc.

Dead is a person after you put the body into the fire in a crematory and collect the ashes
In this case you are really dead, and you will see then if there is any form of afterlife.

So far nobody could answer my question if there is an afterlife, with something like a soul outside of your body, does this soul have consciousness?

About myself, I am with Stephen Hawking, and I don't think he is wrong...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
the concept of an afterlife as a fairy story for people afraid of the dark

TheLight954
Freshman Poster
Posts: 53
Joined: September 12th, 2016, 1:53 am

Re: Re:

Post by TheLight954 » October 25th, 2018, 11:30 pm

Yohan wrote:
October 25th, 2018, 7:02 pm
Yet 18% people in cardiac arrest actually do have an experience and in many cases can accurately recount the events going on while they are "dead".
Again, there are people who awake in the middle of the "death", recount their experience, fall back asleep, and forget their experience. Their brain probably needs to take sufficiently less damage in order for the experience to be remembered.
These people are not really dead, the death is not like the body is fully dead within a few seconds, but the organs and other parts of the body die slowly, independent from each other, within considerably difference of time.
Skin, the largest organ will still be alive for several days, with nails growing, etc.

Dead is a person after you put the body into the fire in a crematory and collect the ashes
In this case you are really dead, and you will see then if there is any form of afterlife.

So far nobody could answer my question if there is an afterlife, with something like a soul outside of your body, does this soul have consciousness?
Sure. Even if it were proven experimentally that NDEers could view images that could not be seen normally, it would still not prove life after death exists. It would, however, be more than enough to convince me. Also, it still convinces me that the brain cannot be the sole factor of consciousness if people become even more conscious after their brain flat-lines.
the concept of an afterlife as a fairy story for people afraid of the dark
That's just a belief with no facts supporting it. The concept of the afterlife is an abstract concept embedded in certain people's heads, and so it the concept that no afterlife exists. The reality is that one's ego of preserving their old worldview is far more important than the actual implications of the belief, especially if they are emotionally invested in the belief. Wishful thinking does not have as much as an impact on people's beliefs as much as you think it does; confirmation bias has far more impact. Also, I'm not really afraid of death.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Religion and Spirituality”