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Are horror stories about Scientology true? If so...

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Are horror stories about Scientology true? If so...

Postby Winston » Sun May 23, 2010 1:35 pm

Are horror stories about Scientology like in the following film true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpwvCRJG5v4

There are so many of them, including those involving murder too.

If so, why would the Scientology institution do such horrible torturous things to its members? What do they gain from it? Wouldn't they risk incurring criminal charges, get a bad reputation, and possibly get arrested and shut down by the Federal Government?

It doesn't seem logical. Why would an institution do so many things to give itself such horrible publicity from the media?

And how can they get away with all that? Why didn't the government shut them down long ago and arrest them?

Also, why would its members endure years of ridiculous extreme torturous inhumane conditions? I would have been outta there on the first day! Who would be that stupid?

But then again, why would so many ex-Scientologists make up stories that weren't true? What could their motivation be?

But if they are true, then how could Scientology get away with it? They would have been shut down long ago wouldn't they?

I don't get it.

Any idea?

Come to think of it, why are so many well known scams allowed to exist and operate in the USA? Amway, Scientology, John Robert Powers Modeling Agency, etc? Every indepdendent unbiased investigator has concluded that they are scams. So why haven't they been shut down long ago?
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Re: Are horror stories about Scientology true? If so...

Postby globetrotter » Sun May 23, 2010 2:57 pm

Winston wrote:Come to think of it, why are so many well known scams allowed to exist and operate in the USA? Amway, Scientology, John Robert Powers Modeling Agency, etc? Every independent unbiased investigator has concluded that they are scams. So why haven't they been shut down long ago?


Americans are addicted to success and wealth. People who want to move to the USA are the same and thus self-select for those traits. The USA has a crazy immigration policy that is hard on the surface but has an unofficial policy of allowing those with the cunning and guts to immigrate illegally. This, of course, will attract Hustlers, Scammers, Liars, Sociopaths, Grifters, Con Artists and the Morally Flexible.

After 30 years of such a policy you then end up with a State like California where tens of millions feel that it is justified for them to lie on their mortgage application so that they can get a big house.

The concept is called Moral Hazard, applied to an entire society.

Also the notion of 'an independent unbiased investigator' does not exist.

J. Powers is really good for body language, acting skills, presentation and looking extremely professional. Just don't become a true believer and spend your money wisely and you will be a polished executive when you finish.

AMWAY isn't a scam if you have the smarts to get up into the inner circle and get the door fee checks from their rallies and meetings. That is where the real money is and that is why when you attend one they have thuggish, large, big doormen who look more appropriate for a strip club.

Scientology is just another whacky religion, one geared to the sad lost souls of Hollywood.
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Postby FuzzX » Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm

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Postby Winston » Sun May 23, 2010 5:09 pm

So are those horror stories about Scientology true?

What about the questions?

FuzzX, your link doesn't go anywhere that's relevant.
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Postby The_Adventurer » Sun May 23, 2010 9:57 pm

Did you watch the slide show presentation there? Nothing new if you've looked into the organization even a little, but pretty damning if you ask me.
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Postby momopi » Sun May 23, 2010 10:51 pm

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104274

I have a friend from a Jehovah Witness family, who married a Pinay Catholic and had 2 kids. For whatever the reason, they converted to Scientology, and few years later had a "life guide" from the Church living with their family. I'm not entirely sure what the guy's function was other than to mooch a meal ticket. One day Mr. Life Guide decided to take a gun and blow his brains out. That was the end of that.

IMO people who are looking for an answer to meaning of life are willing to believe in just about anything, then when they finally realize that there was no answer, they freak out. Douglas Adams figured this out and tried to tell people, if they'd listen:

"It had to be a number, an ordinary, smallish number, and I chose that one. Binary representations, base thirteen, Tibetan monks are all complete nonsense. I sat at my desk, stared into the garden and thought '42 will do.' I typed it out. End of story."


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If you're going to seek the answer to everything from a science fiction author, Douglas Adams > L Ron Hubbard.
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Postby Winston » Mon May 24, 2010 7:39 am

Terrence wrote:Did you watch the slide show presentation there? Nothing new if you've looked into the organization even a little, but pretty damning if you ask me.


Yeah I saw it. It was disturbing. But I can't understand how they get away with all that. Other people go to jail for smaller crimes. How are they above the law?

And why do they do such horrible things?

And why would people be stupid enough to give away hundreds of thousands of dollars like that? If people give away money that easily, I'd be very rich right now and so would many others.

I have an Uncle involved in Scientology right now. He has not reported anything negative though.

The media also has horror stories about the Moonies and their Unification Church. But when I went to one of their retreats in the late 90's with a group from Berkeley cause I was bored as hell, I was not subjected to starvation or mind control techniques at all, like the media said. Why not? Who was lying? The media or the church? In fact, I was treated very well. I did not agree with their bizarre beliefs. But I was not subjected to any pressure or mind control or starvation techniques like the media and books about it say.

So if the media's story about the Moonies didn't check out when I visited them, how do we know if their stories about Scientology are true or not?
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Postby Winston » Mon May 24, 2010 7:41 am

Momopi, again you are being narrow here and not looking at the big picture.

Some people do find meaning in life and do find their answer in some spiritual practice or tradition.

We can only learn so much. There is always more to be learned.

Tibetan masters are not nonsense. Those who have learned from them have reported amazing things. They have reached a level of awareness way beyond YOUR comprehension.

Momopi, you may not have had any spiritual experiences yet, and you may not be attuned to your right brain at all. But that doesn't mean that others haven't.

Your prism of the world does not reflect all of reality. You do understand that right?

You do acknowledge that there are many things and mysteries that you can't explain right?

Right?
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Postby Winston » Mon May 24, 2010 7:46 am

Momopi,
Since the paranormal is 100 percent bullshit in your view, how do you explain the following documented story by Larry Dossey, MD, author of "The Power of Premonitions"?

3. A favorite example of yours?

Amanda, a young mother in Washington State, was awakened one night by a horrible dream. She dreamed that the chandelier in the next room had fallen from the ceiling onto her sleeping infant’s crib and crushed the baby. In the dream she saw a clock in the baby’s room that read 4:35, and that wind and rain were hammering the windows. Extremely upset, she awakened her husband and told him her dream. He said it was silly and to go back to sleep. But the dream was so frightening that Amanda went into the baby’s room and brought it back to bed with her. Soon she was awakened by a loud crash in the baby’s room. She rushed in to see that the chandelier had fallen and crushed the crib -- and that the clock in the room read 4:35, and that wind and rain were howling outside. Her dreampremonition was camera-like in detail, including the specific event, the precise time, and even a change in the weather.

4. Why are premonitions about unpleasant things? Why don’t we have premonitions about winning the lottery, the right stocks to pick, or when to bail out of the stock market?

Most researchers believe premonitions are trying to do us a favor. They are mainly about survival. If you know that something life-threatening is approaching, you have a chance to avoid it. This would increase your chance of staying alive and reproducing -- our evolutionary imperative. That’s probably why premonitions are often about threats to our existence, why they have become built into our biology, and why probably everyone has apremonition sense to some degree.


To simply ignore or deny such cases would be unscientific. So how do you factor it into your world view?

I got you nailed on this one :)
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Postby momopi » Mon May 24, 2010 3:02 pm

Winston wrote:Tibetan masters are not nonsense. Those who have learned from them have reported amazing things. They have reached a level of awareness way beyond YOUR comprehension.


1. You don't understand the quote from Douglas Adams (in its proper context).

2. Science is not a grimoire.

3. I *wish* there was such thing as a galactic watchmaker, meaningful "life after death", healing by "lay on hands" and real, usable powers of precognition. But the reality is that they don't work -- it's an ugly, karma-less truth where Buddha, Jesus, Hitler, Stalin, etc. all go to the same place after death: 6 foot under.

As a fan of fantasy and fantasy gaming, I'm all for imaginations. Heck, if magic was real, I'd be a multi-class Rogue/Wizard. But this isn't a game of D&D. In real life, those who beat their swords into plowshares, end up plowing the fields for those who kept their swords. The powerless turn to religion and wish that they'd be rewarded in the afterlife. Isaiah be damned.


Winston wrote:Your prism of the world does not reflect all of reality. You do understand that right?


If your prism resembles the following and only works in foggy and mysterious ways, ask yourself where you draw the line between wishful thinking vs. reality:

Image

==================

Audiobooks avail:
http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Rich ... 0618680004
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Postby Winston » Tue May 25, 2010 3:59 pm

Momopi,
But how do you explain cases like these? You didn't answer that. What's your explanation?

"3. A favorite example of yours?

Amanda, a young mother in Washington State, was awakened one night by a horrible dream. She dreamed that the chandelier in the next room had fallen from the ceiling onto her sleeping infant’s crib and crushed the baby. In the dream she saw a clock in the baby’s room that read 4:35, and that wind and rain were hammering the windows. Extremely upset, she awakened her husband and told him her dream. He said it was silly and to go back to sleep. But the dream was so frightening that Amanda went into the baby’s room and brought it back to bed with her. Soon she was awakened by a loud crash in the baby’s room. She rushed in to see that the chandelier had fallen and crushed the crib -- and that the clock in the room read 4:35, and that wind and rain were howling outside. Her dreampremonition was camera-like in detail, including the specific event, the precise time, and even a change in the weather."
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Postby momopi » Tue May 25, 2010 6:02 pm

Winston wrote:Momopi,
But how do you explain cases like these? You didn't answer that. What's your explanation?


1. I do not owe you an explination or an answer. Since I'm not paid for my time and effort, I only write replies at my leisure.

2. It's another foggy crystal ball with no replicable demonstration or evidence, which kicks off the bullsh*t detector.

3. It flunks the basic reproducibility principle of scientific method, which renders it useless and irrevelent even if the event is real.


If you don't understand point #3, this is what I told someone who believes in divine miracles: if you had cancer and the chance of a divine healing is 1 in 1,000,000,000 (billion) at random, what the hell is the "divine miracle" good for, other than church propaganda? You're going to end up in a real hospital anyway, just as the Pope did.


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