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Hypocrisy of Immigration: Latin America vs. USA

Discuss international visas, immigration and citizenship issues.

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Hypocrisy of Immigration: Latin America vs. USA

Postby skateboardstephen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:42 pm

Has anyone who lives in Latin America notice that they make it very difficult for foreigners to make a living,start business and receive any protection under their law..and even practice xenophobia but all you ever hear about is the U.S. being unfair and bigoted...yet every law in the U.S. seems to protect and insure that non-citizens prosper in the U.S. while the American citizen is just pushed off to the side while they have their culture,language,local customs shitted on,Jobs taken by outsiders and if you dare suggest that opportunities in America should be for U.S. citizens you will be called a bigot...yet try to go a Latin American country expecting the same treatment and perks that are offered to illegal immigrants..or immigrants in general in the U.S. and see what happens..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q5-g4m6Pd8[/youtube]

In Brazil they don't even like Americans...there is so much red tape and bureaucracy for foreigners that want to start a small businesses in this country,they tend to only want to hire Brazilians..even if it is for a English speaking position they would much rather send a Brazilian to a school for 4 years to learn English and hire him or her than a native English Speaker.They make it so hard for you to stay,they provide no security making it unsafe for foreigners.They make it so hard to make a living that you want to deport yourself.You pay for all your legal documents to get into the country legally for nothing...Brazil also deports illegal Peruvians trying to cross the border but people who all ways want to make Americans look like bullies will never talk about their own countries..totally excluding the fact that foreigners practically get away withe murder in the U.S...In Latin America they just want you here long enough to go Broke from spending all your money are go broke from being stuck up by one on their wonderful citizens and be on the next thing smoking back home ..Hahh gringo..
se eu soubesse o que eu sei hoje, teria mando mulheres americanas para foder-se há muitos anos.que deus abençoe o brasil!
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Postby E Irizarry R&B Singer » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:04 pm

@SkateboardStephen,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Maybe that's why you should look into a country besides the U.S. of Gay that gives citizenship and just travel every 60-180 days to another country with residual income.

No wonder the US isn't worried about giving out US passports even in this day and age: they know the majority will never be away from the U.S. of Gay long enough due to like Contrarian said about paying foreign banks to not take US Dollars from US travelers anymore that don't have citizenship in that respective hypothetical country and due to xenophobia in many parts of Latin America that Stephen is taking about in this article.

If things don't go right in Brazil, man, then look into Panama which also has an Afro-Latino population with a lot more American expats there.

Check out Belize too, although not all of them speak Spanish.
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Postby ladislav » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:10 pm

Tell me about it. In Puerto Rico, USA ( yeah right) they do the same. They don't like outsiders ( unless they bring money to invest or are tourists) and they think they are just a Latin American 'country' which is in some kind of agreement with the USA. They treat Haitians and Dominicans like dogs and just try looking for work there even if you have the US citizenship and residency there! No one will give you a job there.

This is why the Philippines is really an oasis. They like Americans ( or foreigners in general-- as a rule, that is) and they make it easier to stay there. If you get a quota visa-- will cost you $5-6K, you can even work in the country. Those foreigners who wanted to work in the country, could find work.

How is it though that so many Europeans and immigrants did settle in Brazil?
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Postby Adama » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:49 pm

ladislav wrote:Tell me about it. In Puerto Rico, USA ( yeah right) they do the same. They don't like outsiders ( unless they bring money to invest or are tourists) and they think they are just a Latin American 'country' which is in some kind of agreement with the USA. They treat Haitians and Dominicans like dogs and just try looking for work there even if you have the US citizenship and residency there! No one will give you a job there.

This is why the Philippines is really an oasis. They like Americans ( or foreigners in general-- as a rule, that is) and they make it easier to stay there. If you get a quota visa-- will cost you $5-6K, you can even work in the country. Those foreigners who wanted to work in the country, could find work.

How is it though that so many Europeans and immigrants did settle in Brazil?


I think European immigrants, especially Portuguese, Italian, and German, get preferential treatment by the government.
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Postby aozora13 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:16 am

I agree with Adama. Unfortunately, Europeans do get better treatment than Americans usually in Brazil. Usually Latin America has problems with letting foreign people setting up businesses, although it would help the country. I know it is easier in Mexico (NAFTA) but other countries in Latin America it is not easy; even with marriage unless you use your spouse to setup the business and you can somehow get around the legal requirements.

Regular employment is more difficult as even when you have a Spouse Visa/Permanent Visa (working rights), they see that you are American and non-white. Possibly other members can give their views?

Yes immigration is difficult for Americans in many countries. Even if that country has a immigration program. Sponsorship is difficult and I almost had a job in Europe (I know discussion is for LA). America has more programs designed for cheap labor from poor countries in Latin America to have more rights such as voting in some elections although technically it should not be the case. That is a different topic.
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Postby BeaconofLight » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:29 am

Is this mainly a problem in Brazil or all of South America? Is it difficult to obtain citizenship or residence in Colombia or Chile?
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Postby Adama » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:37 am

BeaconofLight wrote:Is this mainly a problem in Brazil or all of South America? Is it difficult to obtain citizenship or residence in Colombia or Chile?


Chile is supposed to be very business friendly, even for foreigners. I dont know first hand, but there is a site written by a man who calls himself Simon Black, the Sovereign man, who recommends Chile highly. He also tries to upsell you at every turn though.

I think Colombia is more tricky but it can be done. The only problem is, how much money do those people have to spend? Also, I hear taxes are high for businesses.

A google search on these topics is always helpful and informative though.

The other problem with many of those south American countries is the amount of pollution you will have to deal with on a daily basis. If you are going to live or work in the city, you will deal with a great amount of pollution daily. If you have asthma, allergies or like fresh air, you may want to choose a richer country or live in the countryside (but then safety becomes an issue).

Also in Colombia, if you have a private home, you will need to have a secure gate (think movie images of South Central LA /Compton).

Or you will need to find a condo with guards.
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Re: Hypocrisy of Immigration: Latin America vs. USA

Postby Teal Lantern » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:41 am

skateboardstephen wrote:Has anyone who lives in Latin America notice that they make it very difficult for foreigners to make a living,start business and receive any protection under their law..and even practice xenophobia but all you ever hear about is the U.S. being unfair and bigoted...yet every law in the U.S. seems to protect and insure that non-citizens prosper in the U.S. while the American citizen is just pushed off to the side while they have their culture,language,local customs shitted on,Jobs taken by outsiders and if you dare suggest that opportunities in America should be for U.S. citizens you will be called a bigot...yet try to go a Latin American country expecting the same treatment and perks that are offered to illegal immigrants..or immigrants in general in the U.S. and see what happens..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q5-g4m6Pd8[/youtube]

In Brazil they don't even like Americans...there is so much red tape and bureaucracy for foreigners that want to start a small businesses in this country,they tend to only want to hire Brazilians..even if it is for a English speaking position they would much rather send a Brazilian to a school for 4 years to learn English and hire him or her than a native English Speaker.They make it so hard for you to stay,they provide no security making it unsafe for foreigners.They make it so hard to make a living that you want to deport yourself.You pay for all your legal documents to get into the country legally for nothing...Brazil also deports illegal Peruvians trying to cross the border but people who all ways want to make Americans look like bullies will never talk about their own countries..totally excluding the fact that foreigners practically get away withe murder in the U.S...In Latin America they just want you here long enough to go Broke from spending all your money are go broke from being stuck up by one on their wonderful citizens and be on the next thing smoking back home ..Hahh gringo..



Imagine if the USSA defended its borders the way others do... :roll:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RJtaAIk-LU[/youtube]
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Re: Hypocrisy of Immigration: Latin America vs. USA

Postby skateboardstephen » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:56 am

Teal Lantern wrote:
skateboardstephen wrote:Has anyone who lives in Latin America notice that they make it very difficult for foreigners to make a living,start business and receive any protection under their law..and even practice xenophobia but all you ever hear about is the U.S. being unfair and bigoted...yet every law in the U.S. seems to protect and insure that non-citizens prosper in the U.S. while the American citizen is just pushed off to the side while they have their culture,language,local customs shitted on,Jobs taken by outsiders and if you dare suggest that opportunities in America should be for U.S. citizens you will be called a bigot...yet try to go a Latin American country expecting the same treatment and perks that are offered to illegal immigrants..or immigrants in general in the U.S. and see what happens..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q5-g4m6Pd8[/youtube]

In Brazil they don't even like Americans...there is so much red tape and bureaucracy for foreigners that want to start a small businesses in this country,they tend to only want to hire Brazilians..even if it is for a English speaking position they would much rather send a Brazilian to a school for 4 years to learn English and hire him or her than a native English Speaker.They make it so hard for you to stay,they provide no security making it unsafe for foreigners.They make it so hard to make a living that you want to deport yourself.You pay for all your legal documents to get into the country legally for nothing...Brazil also deports illegal Peruvians trying to cross the border but people who all ways want to make Americans look like bullies will never talk about their own countries..totally excluding the fact that foreigners practically get away withe murder in the U.S...In Latin America they just want you here long enough to go Broke from spending all your money are go broke from being stuck up by one on their wonderful citizens and be on the next thing smoking back home ..Hahh gringo..



Imagine if the USSA defended its borders the way others do... :roll:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RJtaAIk-LU[/youtube]
Oh nooo if this the was the U.S. doing this all hell would break loose....The funny thing is ..is on my voters registration cards i have one in Spanish yet ...In Brazil they won't even naturalize you unless you can speak Portuguese..yet I knew a Brazilian guy in the U.S. that could not speak English getting paid to do painting on the Benjamin Franklyn Bride in Philly for $20 an hour...yet there is a a list of Americans names on that Bridge who died building it..and the only guy they could find to do that job was that guy..did they even try to find an American?Yet in their country they are stingy with jobs making their minimum wage!!
Last edited by skateboardstephen on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
se eu soubesse o que eu sei hoje, teria mando mulheres americanas para foder-se há muitos anos.que deus abençoe o brasil!
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Postby ladislav » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 pm

Just because the US ( and Anglo countries) is in a self destructive mode, racial guilt-ridden and wanting to bring poor people in for cheap labor and votes, and because it has a lib, weakling gov't and no strong culture to defend- it does not mean other countries want to do the same. They are out to protect their people from competition of all kinds.

The good thing about those developing nations is that if you do have enough cash, rules will be bent, you will get all the permits, citizenship, etc. It's a mechanism and a game and one needs to learn to play it.

This is why I go to Saudi/ME to work because I know that those countries will not welcome me without money. They don't need poor saps in their countries for any reason.
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Postby skateboardstephen » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:03 pm

ladislav wrote:Just because the US ( and Anglo countries) is in a self destructive mode, racial guilt-ridden and wanting to bring poor people in for cheap labor and votes, and because it has a lib, weakling gov't and no strong culture to defend- it does not mean other countries want to do the same. They are out to protect their people from competition of all kinds.


True...true i may just have to just go back home to Philly...even though even there i am still treated like a foreigner in a city i was born in.
se eu soubesse o que eu sei hoje, teria mando mulheres americanas para foder-se há muitos anos.que deus abençoe o brasil!
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Postby Adama » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:21 pm

ladislav wrote:Just because the US ( and Anglo countries) is in a self destructive mode, racial guilt-ridden and wanting to bring poor people in for cheap labor and votes, and because it has a lib, weakling gov't and no strong culture to defend- it does not mean other countries want to do the same. They are out to protect their people from competition of all kinds.

The good thing about those developing nations is that if you do have enough cash, rules will be bent, you will get all the permits, citizenship, etc. It's a mechanism and a game and one needs to learn to play it.


Ladislav, I am having a hard time reconciling that with what you said in the other immigration thread. Unless you changed your mind by reading Auf_Urlaub in the last two weeks, it seems you have completely contradicted yourself here.
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:31 pm

I hardly know where to start on these issues.

Memo to Stephen, you are living in a favela (1), you and your wife are both Black (2) and you're in a country with crushing bureaucracy even for Brazilians.

Brazilian companies hiring Brazilians is just nationalism when there's nothing to challenge it. How many Americans are in Brazil? I know its fewer than Americans in other Latin American countries.

Americans are mostly in Mexico for bit of irony...

You'll find law enforcement lacking in any country but America for Americans. Maybe Britain considers you a friend and won't punish you for being American. As I have said in other forums around the net, for people to really believe there is no animosity towards America for supporting various oppressive dictatorships, you really are Pollyanna...

As Johnny says on his Expat Files podcast, in Latin America its all about the show and in Brazil its turned up a notch because you have a multi-hue culture and physical appearance is paramount.

Black People are already seen as being poor in Brazil, so living in a favela somehow prevents this Stephen? As I heard and seen repeated, in Brazil there is a racial element but not nearly as bad as America, its more about class/status.

They make it hard to start a business in Brazil yes, well that means start one online or teach English. If you're not interested in either of those, then yes come back to America we're you can work some crappy job and wait for the collapse. In our PM's you suggested trying to get a work visa in Brazil. After my research I have found that not to be necessary. My plan is to marry and procreate with a Brazilian woman. Now if for some reason that does not happen, plans will be changed. This is where having an online presence (online business) allows tremendous flexibility. By marrying a Brazilian I get citizenship, by having a child in Brazil, they are citizens and are allowed dual citizenship.

Latin America mostly gets along but if you look inside the game, you'll see there are some massive disagreements on migration, especially if you're dark skinned and indigenous looking.

What "Foreigners" practically get away with murder??? Its called Capitalism, it outlived its usefulness but everybody seemingly including many left leaning movements wants to keep it and tweak it. The answer like most things in humanity is somewhere in the middle. Some parts of the economy need to be run by Government, other parts need to be made private.

The truth comes from both sides of the debate. Many Americans will not work picking fruit, cleaning and packaging fish/chicken/beef/pork, serve food/fast food/catering team, etc, etc. I won't do it, you won't do it and not many native Americans (born in country) will do it. I worked with a trucker who broke the cycle of working as farm workers, becomes the first in his family to finish high school and not work in the fields. I know what's going on around here and the demonization by the right is a political calculation, its not working of course but its still the card they want to play.

We could easily allow machines to do much of that work, but that would leave too many people free to get more education and pay more attention to what happens in the Ivory Towers.

From what I can tell from my research and why Latin America is attractive to Libertarians, you need to be self-reliant. More than you were in America.

That means -

1) Choosing where you live is extremely important. With less crime, there's less need for Government interference.
2) Making enough money with your own company or online business keeps you out of the Government Red Tape.
3) Learn the language, have patience with the people and the culture, if you don't you'll drive yourself crazy.

When I asked you how much you live on in Brazil, it was considerably less than I initially thought, I wasn't really surprised though. As suggested by experienced expats, that's far too low because it doesn't allow you to live like an expat in Brazil, you're living like a local and you're being treated accordingly. Add to the fact that you're American and if you really believe Brazilians don't like Americans very much, you're living conditions don't allow you to live away from them and choose to interact with them as an option, not a necessity.

This is why I asked about living/working in a hostel. That may not be a problem for a largely brown working class, but to an English speaking, University educated "White" or Light skinned Brazilian maybe it is.

We won't know until its tried.

But according to many sources I have checked with, it takes whatever the CBV (Cansa Basica Vital) is for a family (two parents, two kids) for one GRINGO to live like he does in America, not cutting back. That's why people say our carbon footprint is so big in America. If you want to be seen as an American you need to live like one. I am not saying being wasteful, I am saying, if Latin Americans by and large believe Americans have money/are rich, whether that stereotype is right, wrong or justified, that's what they think.

According to my research, it takes $1,200-$1,300US to live in Brazil, only Chile would be more expensive as a single person and roughly $500-$600 more for a couple. You are living on far less than that, showing its possible to live in Brazil on that amount, but it comes with compromises/caveats.

This is why becoming an expat is the domain of the upper middle class. Often times with marketable skills that transfer to other locations. So unless you're willing to become an entrepreneur, get a check from the US Federal Government (Disability, VA or SSI), teach English or have a marketable skill like finding a copywriter for SEO in Brazil is extremely hard right now; your best bet is to do what most guys do when marrying abroad, file a K1, bring them to America and live in America.

Its not off-topic since most of this post came off as a rant about Brazilian society and your struggles with it.
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Postby djfourmoney » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:48 pm

ladislav wrote:Just because the US ( and Anglo countries) is in a self destructive mode, racial guilt-ridden and wanting to bring poor people in for cheap labor and votes, and because it has a lib, weakling gov't and no strong culture to defend- it does not mean other countries want to do the same. They are out to protect their people from competition of all kinds.

The good thing about those developing nations is that if you do have enough cash, rules will be bent, you will get all the permits, citizenship, etc. It's a mechanism and a game and one needs to learn to play it.

This is why I go to Saudi/ME to work because I know that those countries will not welcome me without money. They don't need poor saps in their countries for any reason.


Sorry but White Americans are largely not guilt ridden, they are just tired of hearing that America is racist and that they are responsible. Haven't you seen the constant deflection, subject changing and blaming the victim that comes mainly from more conservative circles and people like Cornfed on this forum?

The Black Community is not united making this sort of lurching behavior possible. Teddy Roosevelt wanted to talk about Civil Rights but was told by party leaders that wasn't a good idea and changed his mind on a dinner with Booker T. Washington. Why I say lurching? FDR also wanted Civil Rights and so did Truman, didn't get done until Ike in 1957 and Equal Rights didn't happen until 1968, where LBJ said if I signed that amendment the Democrats would lose the South for a generation, he was right.

So calling White American guilt-ridden is just plain WRONG.
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Postby aozora13 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:11 am

djfourmoney wrote:I hardly know where to start on these issues.

Memo to Stephen, you are living in a favela (1), you and your wife are both Black (2) and you're in a country with crushing bureaucracy even for Brazilians.

Brazilian companies hiring Brazilians is just nationalism when there's nothing to challenge it. How many Americans are in Brazil? I know its fewer than Americans in other Latin American countries.

Americans are mostly in Mexico for bit of irony...

You'll find law enforcement lacking in any country but America for Americans. Maybe Britain considers you a friend and won't punish you for being American. As I have said in other forums around the net, for people to really believe there is no animosity towards America for supporting various oppressive dictatorships, you really are Pollyanna...

As Johnny says on his Expat Files podcast, in Latin America its all about the show and in Brazil its turned up a notch because you have a multi-hue culture and physical appearance is paramount.

Black People are already seen as being poor in Brazil, so living in a favela somehow prevents this Stephen? As I heard and seen repeated, in Brazil there is a racial element but not nearly as bad as America, its more about class/status.

They make it hard to start a business in Brazil yes, well that means start one online or teach English. If you're not interested in either of those, then yes come back to America we're you can work some crappy job and wait for the collapse. In our PM's you suggested trying to get a work visa in Brazil. After my research I have found that not to be necessary. My plan is to marry and procreate with a Brazilian woman. Now if for some reason that does not happen, plans will be changed. This is where having an online presence (online business) allows tremendous flexibility. By marrying a Brazilian I get citizenship, by having a child in Brazil, they are citizens and are allowed dual citizenship.

Latin America mostly gets along but if you look inside the game, you'll see there are some massive disagreements on migration, especially if you're dark skinned and indigenous looking.

What "Foreigners" practically get away with murder??? Its called Capitalism, it outlived its usefulness but everybody seemingly including many left leaning movements wants to keep it and tweak it. The answer like most things in humanity is somewhere in the middle. Some parts of the economy need to be run by Government, other parts need to be made private.

The truth comes from both sides of the debate. Many Americans will not work picking fruit, cleaning and packaging fish/chicken/beef/pork, serve food/fast food/catering team, etc, etc. I won't do it, you won't do it and not many native Americans (born in country) will do it. I worked with a trucker who broke the cycle of working as farm workers, becomes the first in his family to finish high school and not work in the fields. I know what's going on around here and the demonization by the right is a political calculation, its not working of course but its still the card they want to play.

We could easily allow machines to do much of that work, but that would leave too many people free to get more education and pay more attention to what happens in the Ivory Towers.

From what I can tell from my research and why Latin America is attractive to Libertarians, you need to be self-reliant. More than you were in America.

That means -

1) Choosing where you live is extremely important. With less crime, there's less need for Government interference.
2) Making enough money with your own company or online business keeps you out of the Government Red Tape.
3) Learn the language, have patience with the people and the culture, if you don't you'll drive yourself crazy.

When I asked you how much you live on in Brazil, it was considerably less than I initially thought, I wasn't really surprised though. As suggested by experienced expats, that's far too low because it doesn't allow you to live like an expat in Brazil, you're living like a local and you're being treated accordingly. Add to the fact that you're American and if you really believe Brazilians don't like Americans very much, you're living conditions don't allow you to live away from them and choose to interact with them as an option, not a necessity.

This is why I asked about living/working in a hostel. That may not be a problem for a largely brown working class, but to an English speaking, University educated "White" or Light skinned Brazilian maybe it is.

We won't know until its tried.

But according to many sources I have checked with, it takes whatever the CBV (Cansa Basica Vital) is for a family (two parents, two kids) for one GRINGO to live like he does in America, not cutting back. That's why people say our carbon footprint is so big in America. If you want to be seen as an American you need to live like one. I am not saying being wasteful, I am saying, if Latin Americans by and large believe Americans have money/are rich, whether that stereotype is right, wrong or justified, that's what they think.

According to my research, it takes $1,200-$1,300US to live in Brazil, only Chile would be more expensive as a single person and roughly $500-$600 more for a couple. You are living on far less than that, showing its possible to live in Brazil on that amount, but it comes with compromises/caveats.

This is why becoming an expat is the domain of the upper middle class. Often times with marketable skills that transfer to other locations. So unless you're willing to become an entrepreneur, get a check from the US Federal Government (Disability, VA or SSI), teach English or have a marketable skill like finding a copywriter for SEO in Brazil is extremely hard right now; your best bet is to do what most guys do when marrying abroad, file a K1, bring them to America and live in America.

Its not off-topic since most of this post came off as a rant about Brazilian society and your struggles with it.


+1

I was thinking that expating for the upper middle class/rich. The cost to live in Brazil for an American lifestyle is not bad. I actually think that is possible with starting your own business. The cost that I have paid when living in Europe was high but I know that I can pay for it. Now in Latin America, Mexico is where most Americans live based on statistics. However, I think that Stephen can live in Brazil if he has a skill that is demanded in that country. He could work in IT. I know when looking for a job for young professionals program (18-30), they had many jobs in Florida, Brasilla in programming in Phython, Java. Since he speaks fluent Portguese, Spanish and English, I am surprised he cannot do as you mentioned be an English teacher and to do translations or try to use his wife to get permits for starting a small business.
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