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Hypocrisy of Immigration: Latin America vs. USA

Discuss international visas, immigration and citizenship issues.

Moderators: jamesbond, fschmidt

Postby djfourmoney » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:36 am

aozora13 wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:I hardly know where to start on these issues.

Memo to Stephen, you are living in a favela (1), you and your wife are both Black (2) and you're in a country with crushing bureaucracy even for Brazilians.

Brazilian companies hiring Brazilians is just nationalism when there's nothing to challenge it. How many Americans are in Brazil? I know its fewer than Americans in other Latin American countries.

Americans are mostly in Mexico for bit of irony...

You'll find law enforcement lacking in any country but America for Americans. Maybe Britain considers you a friend and won't punish you for being American. As I have said in other forums around the net, for people to really believe there is no animosity towards America for supporting various oppressive dictatorships, you really are Pollyanna...

As Johnny says on his Expat Files podcast, in Latin America its all about the show and in Brazil its turned up a notch because you have a multi-hue culture and physical appearance is paramount.

Black People are already seen as being poor in Brazil, so living in a favela somehow prevents this Stephen? As I heard and seen repeated, in Brazil there is a racial element but not nearly as bad as America, its more about class/status.

They make it hard to start a business in Brazil yes, well that means start one online or teach English. If you're not interested in either of those, then yes come back to America we're you can work some crappy job and wait for the collapse. In our PM's you suggested trying to get a work visa in Brazil. After my research I have found that not to be necessary. My plan is to marry and procreate with a Brazilian woman. Now if for some reason that does not happen, plans will be changed. This is where having an online presence (online business) allows tremendous flexibility. By marrying a Brazilian I get citizenship, by having a child in Brazil, they are citizens and are allowed dual citizenship.

Latin America mostly gets along but if you look inside the game, you'll see there are some massive disagreements on migration, especially if you're dark skinned and indigenous looking.

What "Foreigners" practically get away with murder??? Its called Capitalism, it outlived its usefulness but everybody seemingly including many left leaning movements wants to keep it and tweak it. The answer like most things in humanity is somewhere in the middle. Some parts of the economy need to be run by Government, other parts need to be made private.

The truth comes from both sides of the debate. Many Americans will not work picking fruit, cleaning and packaging fish/chicken/beef/pork, serve food/fast food/catering team, etc, etc. I won't do it, you won't do it and not many native Americans (born in country) will do it. I worked with a trucker who broke the cycle of working as farm workers, becomes the first in his family to finish high school and not work in the fields. I know what's going on around here and the demonization by the right is a political calculation, its not working of course but its still the card they want to play.

We could easily allow machines to do much of that work, but that would leave too many people free to get more education and pay more attention to what happens in the Ivory Towers.

From what I can tell from my research and why Latin America is attractive to Libertarians, you need to be self-reliant. More than you were in America.

That means -

1) Choosing where you live is extremely important. With less crime, there's less need for Government interference.
2) Making enough money with your own company or online business keeps you out of the Government Red Tape.
3) Learn the language, have patience with the people and the culture, if you don't you'll drive yourself crazy.

When I asked you how much you live on in Brazil, it was considerably less than I initially thought, I wasn't really surprised though. As suggested by experienced expats, that's far too low because it doesn't allow you to live like an expat in Brazil, you're living like a local and you're being treated accordingly. Add to the fact that you're American and if you really believe Brazilians don't like Americans very much, you're living conditions don't allow you to live away from them and choose to interact with them as an option, not a necessity.

This is why I asked about living/working in a hostel. That may not be a problem for a largely brown working class, but to an English speaking, University educated "White" or Light skinned Brazilian maybe it is.

We won't know until its tried.

But according to many sources I have checked with, it takes whatever the CBV (Cansa Basica Vital) is for a family (two parents, two kids) for one GRINGO to live like he does in America, not cutting back. That's why people say our carbon footprint is so big in America. If you want to be seen as an American you need to live like one. I am not saying being wasteful, I am saying, if Latin Americans by and large believe Americans have money/are rich, whether that stereotype is right, wrong or justified, that's what they think.

According to my research, it takes $1,200-$1,300US to live in Brazil, only Chile would be more expensive as a single person and roughly $500-$600 more for a couple. You are living on far less than that, showing its possible to live in Brazil on that amount, but it comes with compromises/caveats.

This is why becoming an expat is the domain of the upper middle class. Often times with marketable skills that transfer to other locations. So unless you're willing to become an entrepreneur, get a check from the US Federal Government (Disability, VA or SSI), teach English or have a marketable skill like finding a copywriter for SEO in Brazil is extremely hard right now; your best bet is to do what most guys do when marrying abroad, file a K1, bring them to America and live in America.

Its not off-topic since most of this post came off as a rant about Brazilian society and your struggles with it.


+1

I was thinking that expating for the upper middle class/rich. The cost to live in Brazil for an American lifestyle is not bad. I actually think that is possible with starting your own business. The cost that I have paid when living in Europe was high but I know that I can pay for it. Now in Latin America, Mexico is where most Americans live based on statistics. However, I think that Stephen can live in Brazil if he has a skill that is demanded in that country. He could work in IT. I know when looking for a job for young professionals program (18-30), they had many jobs in Florida, Brasilla in programming in Phython, Java. Since he speaks fluent Portguese, Spanish and English, I am surprised he cannot do as you mentioned be an English teacher and to do translations or try to use his wife to get permits for starting a small business.


All it takes is some imagination... I am not saying he has none. I hope he applied for reunioncation with his wife or maybe that is the paperwork he was complaining about.

The cheapest place to live in Europe is Bulgaria for example. For the amount I mentioned you can likely live there for the same amount. Rent will be higher but everything else is about the same, better public transportation.

You should pick up Tim's book - http://www.cheapestdestinationsblog.com ... 2-edition/
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Postby ladislav » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:11 pm

Yes, I have changed my mind after all the explanations about the US immigration. They did use to bring poor Europeans in such as indentured servants, then the starving Irish, then Germans, Jews, Poles, etc. Euros are still coming but few-- they are not poor anymore so they can't become huge masses of voters and/or cheap laborers. Slavery is illegal. I don't buy the legend that the intent of the so called "whites" was to enslave "another race". They simply got the cheapest source of labor they could find and Africans were less expensive than say, Italians or other Euros. But it can't be done anymore.

So, now you have this overwhelming immigration from 3d world countries that fits the bill of the ruling class-- cheap labor and lots of votes. A slave needs to be bought, then fed and clothed and protected and given medical care. A slave cannot become a citizen and vote.

An illegal or legal but non-citizen 3d world laborer is just as cheap but they have to pay for themselves and you don't need to buy them-- you just pay them a small salary ( possibly equivalent of the money that had to be paid to maintain a slave in the past) and they keep their heads down and work their butts off. They eventually get amnesty and gratefully vote for the ruling elite. A slave will vote the Simon LeGree ( sp.) out if he/she ever gets the right to vote.

An extra 11 million Hispanic voters is a guarantee to be elected to the office. It's a boon for the agriculture and industry, too. Bringing in 11 million Europeans for the same purpose will be impossible plus not many want to come, anyway.

Many Native-born Americans are smug, whining smart-alecs with a sense of entitlement ready to sue anything and anyone for any trivial reason and demanding huge salaries. Many are also under-educated and lazy now and will quit on you at a moment's notice and just walk off the job.

Enter Indians on visas -- they don't complain, work for half as much and do the job. Enter Mexicans- they work hard and make many kids- future voters to keep the people in power up there. The feed-back loop is irreversible now.

To return to the original topic-- I teach ESL and do translations online just because I know that no one in these uber-nationalistic countries will help me. The people are great and "friendly" there but ask them for a job/money and/or any help and they turn into devils. Plus their gov'ts aren't really interested in bringing in anyone who is there to be a burden-- they have enough poor people of their own. Since these countries are not Western and/or "white" in the Anglo parlance, they can be racist and xenophobic and anti-immigrant and treat you like crap and the UN will be mum about it.

So, you must be self-sufficient and have an online income no matter what if you want to survive and thrive there. Or you can teach English at local schools- my friend did that in Brazil. He was making $5 an hour. Plus now you can teach online and make $10-12 an hour. I 've written a book about it, if you still have not gotten it from me, PM me with your email address.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
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Postby djfourmoney » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:40 pm

ladislav wrote:Yes, I have changed my mind after all the explanations about the US immigration. They did use to bring poor Europeans in such as indentured servants, then the starving Irish, then Germans, Jews, Poles, etc. Euros are still coming but few-- they are not poor anymore so they can't become huge masses of voters and/or cheap laborers. Slavery is illegal. I don't buy the legend that the intent of the so called "whites" was to enslave "another race". They simply got the cheapest source of labor they could find and Africans were less expensive than say, Italians or other Euros. But it can't be done anymore.

So, now you have this overwhelming immigration from 3d world countries that fits the bill of the ruling class-- cheap labor and lots of votes. A slave needs to be bought, then fed and clothed and protected and given medical care. A slave cannot become a citizen and vote.

An illegal or legal but non-citizen 3d world laborer is just as cheap but they have to pay for themselves and you don't need to buy them-- you just pay them a small salary ( possibly equivalent of the money that had to be paid to maintain a slave in the past) and they keep their heads down and work their butts off. They eventually get amnesty and gratefully vote for the ruling elite. A slave will vote the Simon LeGree ( sp.) out if he/she ever gets the right to vote.

An extra 11 million Hispanic voters is a guarantee to be elected to the office. It's a boon for the agriculture and industry, too. Bringing in 11 million Europeans for the same purpose will be impossible plus not many want to come, anyway.

Many Native-born Americans are smug, whining smart-alecs with a sense of entitlement ready to sue anything and anyone for any trivial reason and demanding huge salaries. Many are also under-educated and lazy now and will quit on you at a moment's notice and just walk off the job.

Enter Indians on visas -- they don't complain, work for half as much and do the job. Enter Mexicans- they work hard and make many kids- future voters to keep the people in power up there. The feed-back loop is irreversible now.

To return to the original topic-- I teach ESL and do translations online just because I know that no one in these uber-nationalistic countries will help me. The people are great and "friendly" there but ask them for a job/money and/or any help and they turn into devils. Plus their gov'ts aren't really interested in bringing in anyone who is there to be a burden-- they have enough poor people of their own. Since these countries are not Western and/or "white" in the Anglo parlance, they can be racist and xenophobic and anti-immigrant and treat you like crap and the UN will be mum about it.

So, you must be self-sufficient and have an online income no matter what if you want to survive and thrive there. Or you can teach English at local schools- my friend did that in Brazil. He was making $5 an hour. Plus now you can teach online and make $10-12 an hour. I 've written a book about it, if you still have not gotten it from me, PM me with your email address.


Right Lav, this is the US economic model at work, in realtime.

With the internet you can now see the shifts going on among the population/demographics. I wouldn't agree Americans are lazy, just look online lots of people do consulting for free, even here. Lots of people work on Linux projects while for free and not charge for their programs to be used. It is true lots of the people developing programs for Linux are in Western/Eastern Europe though.

That said learning Python doesn't look terribly hard.

I also agree with your view on how Latin American countries view outsiders. The protest in Chile and Brazil point out that not everything is honky dory and work needs to be done still. In Brazil it seems they have diverted the money from further social changes and programs to fund massive infrastructure projects in time for the World Cup and the Summer Games.

As I said and if you read enough Expat information, there's a ton of it out there. You need to be self-reliant, there's no Government to bail you out if you find yourself on the street homeless. Unless your a legal resident or citizen. But even then, its going to be far below poverty levels by local standards forget US/EU standards.

What I get monthly for my activities, is $R1200. That's way above poverty in Brazil, but far below poverty in the States. But my EBT card won't work outside of the US, so all the money has to be pulled from it and I thought up a scheme to get food, but even then I don't think I'll bother.

What I am doing is working on my online presence because when I meet a woman, I would really love to tell her I can stand for six months instead of only one-two months.

You can live in Brazil for less than a $1,000 a month US, however you'll be living like a local and will be treated like one.

One more thing, according to my sources, you can make more money teaching English in 2nd tier cities like Belo Horizonte. You can also make pretty good money teaching English in Sao Paulo, but the cost of living goes up quite a bit and traffic is horrendous.
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