Best Place To Live AFTER You Find Miss Right

[Jester]

After you find the right woman -- if you could choose anywhere -- what country would you choose?

Here's the scenario:

--You just got married to your dream girl, and she'll follow you anywhere. She's young and can adapt to whatever culture you live in.
--You both like foreign cultures. Third World is okay. You want to get out of the Anglosphere.
--Your job pays well and lets you live anywhere, all you need is some kind of internet connection. Even a slow one will do.
--You can get a visa to live anywhere.
--Neither of you wants to buy a home, you just want to rent so you aren't tied down forever.
--She wants a baby, and she wants to stay home and not work. For her sake, and the future child's, you want to live somewhere reasonably healthy and peaceful.
--You want to live in a city.
--A house with a big yard and fruit trees would be nice.
--You try to buy organic or natural food - meat too.
--Your total budget is $3,000 a month. You're both healthy, but that figure needs to include local health insurance (or paying cash for things like childbirth, etc.). In other words you don't want to live like a backpacker, you want to live a middle-class lifestyle.


Question:
Where would you go?

[Jester]

...and why?

[PeterAndrewNolan]

I have traveled all over the world with the exception of south america.

Germany is my choice for the best place to live. That is why I am currently in discussions to live in Germany permanently.

1. The people are the biggest selling point of Germany. They are a little stand offish at first but once they get to know you they are really nice. Much nicer than most english speakers.
2. Low cost of living compared to other western countries.
3. Best beer, best sausage, best bread.
4. Everything works. Trains. Trams. Phones. Internet. Electricity. Gas. Water. Heating.
5. Very, very safe. There is very, very little crime in germany. FAR less than the UK or Ireland or Australia.
6. You are central to Europe. You can fly anywhere inside 3 hours. It is 2 hours to Dublin and 3 hours to Moscow.
7. From Frankfurt airport you can go ANYWHERE.
8. You can live in small towns or in rural areas and still hold a very good job. When I went to one of my clients they were, literally, in the middle of farmland.

The only real con is you do have to speak German to work in germany. I do not do much work in germany and my german is not good enough to work in Germany. I sell into english speaking countries.

I can give Germany a very good bill of health for a place to live. And they are looking for young men who want to spend their working life here due to the very low birth rate. If you are a young man and have good skills you can go through the standard process and very likely get a working visa without much trouble at all. You have to have a skill that they are looking for.

[jamesbond]

I have traveled all over the world with the exception of south america.

Germany is my choice for the best place to live. That is why I am currently in discussions to live in Germany permanently.

1. The people are the biggest selling point of Germany. They are a little stand offish at first but once they get to know you they are really nice. Much nicer than most english speakers.
2. Low cost of living compared to other western countries.
3. Best beer, best sausage, best bread.
4. Everything works. Trains. Trams. Phones. Internet. Electricity. Gas. Water. Heating.
5. Very, very safe. There is very, very little crime in germany. FAR less than the UK or Ireland or Australia.
6. You are central to Europe. You can fly anywhere inside 3 hours. It is 2 hours to Dublin and 3 hours to Moscow.
7. From Frankfurt airport you can go ANYWHERE.
8. You can live in small towns or in rural areas and still hold a very good job. When I went to one of my clients they were, literally, in the middle of farmland.

The only real con is you do have to speak German to work in germany. I do not do much work in germany and my german is not good enough to work in Germany. I sell into english speaking countries.

I can give Germany a very good bill of health for a place to live. And they are looking for young men who want to spend their working life here due to the very low birth rate. If you are a young man and have good skills you can go through the standard process and very likely get a working visa without much trouble at all. You have to have a skill that they are looking for.

Very interesting, me and a few other members of this board are considering Germany as a place to live. I heard that most people in Germany do speak English (at least in the big cities). I guess if your going to live there permanetly, you should learn at least some German.

OzGuy, PHX and I are all very much interested in living in Germany. I am starting my german language course, in addition to doing research regarding jobs in Germany. Perhaps I could get a job teaching english as a second language. I do have a bachelors degree in psychology, maybe I could get a job doing something else besides teaching english in Germany.

I have read that the crime rate in Germany is extreamly low. Even in big cities like Berlin, the crime rate is very low. Also, men in Germany do not pursue women like crazy like the men in the US, UK, Canada and Australia do. This is great because it will make it a hell of lot easier to meet women in Germany since guys aren't asking them out every day like guys in anglo-countries do.

Prostitution is legal in Germany, which is a big selling point for me and lot of other guys. The beautiful scenery and architecture is something else I like about Germany. I love castles and Germany has a lot of them. People in Germany are more resevered than they are in the US, which is a good thing, since I am more of a laid back person and not a "party animal" like so many people in the US are. The more research I do on Germany, the more I like it!

[Jester]

Thanks for the input, Peter and James. Germany indeed has some advantages as described. Also a self-employed person can legally immigrate there and stay year-round, no Schengen visa problems. All good.

But c'mon now - family of three, house and big yard, in a city, all for $3000 USD per month? I suspect many places in Germany will not pass that part of the criteria.

What do you guys think?

[gsjackson]

With that budget you could live in the southwest part of France comfortably enough and have one of the best year-round climates in Europe. Same for Croatia along the coast. The Roman emperor Diocletian chose Split, Croatia as the most desirable place in all the empire to spend his later years.

If you wanted to live like a king on that much money, you might consider the Ecuadorian Andes, a city like Cuenca of about 450,000 people, which has become a big retirement hot spot with North Americans in recent years. I've been there -- it's nice, beautiful country, great climate year-round, friendly people. It does have a little bit of the customary Latin American seediness, and it's hard to get by there without speaking Spanish.

I've given the question a lot of thought. I'm focused on Europe mainly because of the intellectual climate there, but I've never been to Asia. If I had to pick one place right now, all things considered, it would be southern France, but I've spent only four days there, so what do I know? Germany is very much of interest, as is the UK, but I would have to repair south for the sunshine at least three months of the year (and I'm not dealing with an unlimited budget either).

[fschmidt]

I would say either Argentina or El Paso. I used to also include Mexico but the chaos there is out of control. Argentina is a pretty country with a European culture that is very cheap. But like most cheap countries, it is dysfunctional. For all the criticism of America, it is almost as cheap as the third world, much cheaper than Europe, and it still works fairly well. The problem with America is the culture and people who are intolerable. El Paso has a Mexican culture and is right on the border, so you can cross for things that are cheaper in Mexico. And El Paso is cheap.

[MrPeabody]

I don't know if it is possible to live for $3000 in Western Europe but your best bet would be Portugal. I have been to Lisbon and it was relatively inexpensive compared to other European countries.

[PeterAndrewNolan]

Thanks for the input, Peter and James. Germany indeed has some advantages as described. Also a self-employed person can legally immigrate there and stay year-round, no Schengen visa problems. All good.

But c'mon now - family of three, house and big yard, in a city, all for $3000 USD per month? I suspect many places in Germany will not pass that part of the criteria.

What do you guys think?

Jester,
if you live in Germany then you are most likely working in Germany and earning a german style wage. USD3,000 will not get you a house and living expenses in Germany. It will get you a comfortable apartment. The apartment buildings have areas in the center where the children can play and they are under the watchful eye of all the tenants of the apartments.

A typical german apartment complex will have an underground carport, 6, 8 or 10 apartment blocks that will be 5 stories high each. They will be arranged on the city block with the central area left open for the kids to play, adults to sit and talk together, bike sheds, the garbage collection etc. It is all very well organised and very ordered. The new apartment blocks are luxurious by anyones standards.

If you choose properly you will be close to a tram line. You will be close to shopping for food etc. There is no need for a car in Germany for the most part. Cars are mostly for people who have to drive some distance to work or who have children to transport. I would never own a car in Germany. You can ALWAYS get a cab in under 10 minutes. At 5pm on a friday night in the rain you can STILL get a cab in 10 minutes in Germany. The cabs are expensive but that is the cost of having so many idle cab drivers and being able to get one at any time of the day or night. When finishing up drinking at a bar at 1am I call my local cab driver and he comes to pick me up. Never any problems.

In germany most people live in apartments and not free standing houses. You would have to be earning a very good wage to afford a free standing house. Rent for an apartment is very modest outside the big cities. Frankfurt is expensive by comparison to other cities. But compared to London german rent is very modest. I was living in a shoe box in an industrial area for EUR1,300 per month in london. In Germany you can get a VERY nice apartment for EUR1,000 per month. It comes totally unfurnished. A "modest" two bedroom apartment is going to cost you about EUR500 per month. This will be perfectly livable but "modest". A top of the line two bedroom apartment is going to cost about EUR1,200 per month outside the big cities. This will be 100 sq meters, hard wood floors, two bathrooms, large living area, large kitchen with a balcony to take in the sun.

Food at the supermarket is practically free. A frozen pizza is going to cost you EUR2. A microwave meal is going to cost you EUR3. Fruit and veg is practically free. Meat is expensive. Beer is EUR12 for 10 litres at the store. Wine is EUR10 for a very good bottle of french or italian red. You can buy red wine for as little as EUR3 per bottle. Sausage is practically free.

If you do not drink beer in restaurants then dining out is very cheap. They charge eur2.80 or eur3.60 for a half litre of beer in a restaurant. When you can buy 10 litres for eur12 in the store you can see why you might want to buy only 2 or 3 beers in a restaurant.

I do have a friend who is German who has left Germany for South East Asia. I will ask him to come here and contribute his point of view. Many German men are leaving Germany. Their top destinations are sourth east asia and south america.

Hotels are cheap. I used to stay here with a lady friend just because it was nice. http://www.villakennedy.com

The king suite with balcony overlooking the courtyard was only EUR240 per night including breakfast in the restaurant. This claims to be the best hotel in Frankfurt. I have stayed in 5 star hotels all over the world. I have never staying in a hotel where the staff took such good care of you as the Villa Kennedy. I rate this the best leisure hotel I have ever stayed in. My lady friend and I used to love staying here. It is right on the river so we could walk down to the river and take in the sunshine as well.

[provocateur]

One thing you all seem to be missing from the process of moving to Germany: Unless you are a EU citizen or EU permanent resident, you will find it quite difficult to stay in the EU for longer than 90 days in a 180-day period (your basic tourist visa). You would need to get a work visa or student visa....or get married to someone that is an EU citizen already. Considering the unemployment in the EU, it will be rather difficult to convince immigration to let you in as a foreigner when so many locals don't have jobs. I have looked into it, and have had no luck.. Student visa....probably would not be the route most of us would want to go. The only practical way of staying there (if a US citizen) from what I have found is to marry a local. I ain't gonna do that!

If someone knows a way to get their foot in the door in the EU...please share!

[PeterAndrewNolan]

If someone knows a way to get their foot in the door in the EU...please share!

provocateur,
you seemed to miss my whole reason for being here. I am creating the MBA. http://www.mensbusinessassociation.com

The MBA will use the World Passport and members will be able to travel to any UN country. They will be able to live and work in ANY UN country.

Of course I need to take on national guvments on this point and that is what I am doing.

I even put a parcel in the post yesterday to no less than THE POPE asking for the Vaticans official position on 4 simple questions.

I expect to be successful but it might take a while.

[Ampoliros]

Hi...I'm Peter's friend from Germany.

First off, I would like to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Peter insofar as his price assessment is concerned. Germany *is* indeed rather a good bargain in this regard because you can earn comparatively speaking a lot of money while most commodities remain - for the time being - relatively cheap.

That said, if you factor in the current €uro Crisis I don't think this blissful state will last for much longer. I expect inflation to become evermore vicious in the next months.
It's already started. Petrol prices have risen as high as 1.70€ for a litre of petrol. Expect things to go up further.

Anyways, as a German man my primary reason for leaving the country wasn't motivated by money. No. It's German women. I've discussed this with Peter. He sees German women as somewhat more humane. By and large I disagree with that assessment. To me the appear to be relatively arrogant princesses and/or feminist dykes. Not all of them, mind you, but far, *far* too many.

I presently reside in Vietnam. And the women here are a lot higher quality. I feel happy here in a way I never felt happy in Germany. I'm earning less money than I would in Germany...but I really don't care. To me the quality of life is more important than copious amounts of spandooly per se.

Incidentally, if you ever want to have a family Vietnam also seems like the better place to be in. The divorce laws are a lot more humane. No divorce rape here (yet).

One final point about Germany: taxes are high and getting higher each year. If you are a professional, well paid single...expect about 60% of your wonga getting suckered right out each month to father state.

Does that sound right to you?

[PeterAndrewNolan]

Thanks for coming over Ampoliros. Much appreciated!

Gents,
Ampoliros and I have chatted about Germany a great deal. Given he is german and grew up here he has a FAR better perspective than I do. Feel free to ask him questions. He is a very nice guy who is very fluent in English as well as German.

My experience of german women is limited to working relationships and limited social relationships. I have never dated a german woman. The closest I have come to that is an Italian woman who was raised in Germany. That went well for a year but finished badly with her doing the "crazy woman" thing. I did not get a good answer to what that was all about. So Ampoliros has a MUCH better view of german women than I do.

The German women I talk to and work with seem just fine to me because they are 1000 times better than english speaking women. Ampoliros finds that hard to believe so we agree to disagree on such things.

Example. One of our colleagues just had a little baby boy. When the proud daddy brought the baby to the office to show off his new son I was as "goo-goo" as the others. He really is a very handsome little baby. Daddy done good!

Anyway one of the young women of the office who knows I disowned my former children said to me.

her: "I am surprised you are so nice about children given your position"

me: "I love children. I am very good with children. I am very disappointed in how that worked out for me"

She turned on her heel and walked away. I had no idea why. Since she did not go to her desk but went to the kitchen I decided I would ask her why she walked away. Her answer was

"I can see from your face that you really loved your children, I just felt so sad for you that you went away from them"

Although she did not say it...she was apparently in some way upset for me over my position and she simply needed to be away from the small gathering of people fawning over the new baby.

No western woman has ever done similar. Now if she had been eastern european she would have given me a hug and/or a kiss on the cheek. Eastern women seem much more open to expressing their emotions.

This young woman now treats me completely differently. She is much friendlier and warmer than she used to be. I gather she had made the assessment I was some kind of horrible man who ran away from his kids and hated children.

[PeterAndrewNolan]

If someone knows a way to get their foot in the door in the EU...please share!

provocateur,
one important thing...please remember that it is self evident you have the right to travel and the right to labour for your living. No guvment can violate those unalienable rights lawfully.

But the right to work is NOT the same as "right to a job". No one OWES you a JOB. And NO ONE can STOP YOU from exerting your labour to provide for yourself.

Guvments own ALL companies. The act of "registering" a company with the "guvment" transfers OWNERSHIP of the company. Therefore the guvment OWNS ALL SHARES IN ALL COMPANIES and people are being sold shares as a lie.

Therefore the MBA is creating the LAWFUL framework for men to create LAWFUL associations to collaborate and work together. NOT GUVMENT OWNED COMPANIES.

For example. Lets say you decide you are going to go into the website and corporate branding business. But you do not have enough colleagues who want to do that with you. You can contact http://www.opus.com.kh/ and strike a deal with them. Up to you and OPUS what deal you strike. You would be expected to keep your word and you can be guaranteed they will keep theirs. You then go out and sell corporate branding and web site development work and you back end it with OPUS.

After some time, if you are successful, you might provide some jobs for other men. They go out and sell corporate branding and web sites as well and the work is back ended by OPUS. Suddenly you have a viable business that is NOT OWNED BY THE GUVMENT.

Now...consider if every car mechanic, every electrician, every plumber, every builder, every private hire driver etc decided (over time) that they wished to offer their services based on their word to be honest to the general public and NOT beg the guvment for all their "good help". What might that look like.

Imagine you were not handing over 50 to 60% in taxes because you did not pay tax on any service YOU did not wish to avail of ?

How different might the world be?

[Jester]

Damn good thread I started!

Thanks to all for the input.

Never would have thought of some of these places. Some sound very nice.

Re budget, just as a fun exercise, let's stick to the original $3000 USD per month after taxes as a firm limit. (Let's say you are a writer, with no local employment. So we stay focused on where you would LIKE to live, not where the jobs are or where you can get a work permit.)

And let's say that you definitely want to rent an actual house with yard, in a city, in an area safe for wife and baby. The budget also has to include healthcare and health insurance, mostly organic or natural food, eating out and shopping a little -- living a middle class lifestyle.

Within those constraints, you want the best place to live for a few years, by whatever other criteria you have - good wine, nice climate, intellectual life and culture, cheap servants, whatever you choose.

Provocateur brought up visas, I think actually Germany is easiest in Schengen zone, just $1000 a month in self-employment income plus health insurance gets you in I think. Or a getting a job works in several Northern European countries I think.

Since the subject of visas has come up, let's consider that as well - how easy it is to stay year-round and open a bank account etc. so you can function easily.

So far we have these suggestions:

Peter - Germany (budget problem? everything else easy)

GSJackson - SW France, Croatia (both sound nice, visa hard, I'm also a little concerned about budget) (Re Cuenca, sounds great, but visas a problem unless retired.)

FSchmidt - Argentina, El Paso
(no visa problems in El Paso for us Americans - unless Texas secedes )
(Argentina pretty easy to get visa based on $900/month or more income; bank account okay too - tempting)
(agreed about Mexico - still tempting)

Mr. Peabody - Portugal
(residency may be easier than most in EU - sounds interesting)

Ampoliros - Vietnam
(year-round possible I think? And banking okay. Sounds good!)

Most interesting is that the countries are quite different from threads about where to meet women. Taking dating out of the equation really changes the countries we look at. This is what I suspected.

Btw, Ampoliros, welcome to the board. How are you handling Vietnam's climate?