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Why do African Americans want to live in the U.S.?

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Postby JamesSa » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:27 pm

I said in a prior comment that I could distinguish between more extreme looks. Your pictures clearly demonstrate this. However, some non-Slavs/non-Scandinavians/non-Anglos here in Moscow could easily pass for Northern Europe, at least to me or to the average American.
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Postby JamesSa » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Kai,


I don't have anything else to add to this. Spot on! There is no escape. They won't hold all of us down for too long at least. This global economy is going to open some serious doors for any black man willing to try different things.


I disagree. It's a limiting belief, which I once had. Where are you now?

You can at least escape the American brand of racism, which I personally find among the worst in the world. As a black man in Moscow, I am actually treated better, even though I was warned that racism here in Moscow would be worse than in America (some of my friends showed me YouTube videos to convince me not to go).

Other countries are actually quite "black" friendly, although many are not, either - which is why I travel in the first place. My purpose is to explore where I can live peacefully and be respected as a man. If I can be treated better in Moscow than in NY, then certainly there are even better places than Moscow since it is a city assumed to be not friendly towards people of color.

Let me also add that I get TONS of attention from many beautiful women in Moscow, which I never received in the US. My girlfriend is perpetually jealous and always tries to go through my laptop or view my phone and Skype. Her fear would be non-existent in the states.
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Postby ladislav » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:02 pm

[quote="JamesSa"]Kai,


I don't have anything else to add to this. Spot on! There is no escape. They won't hold all of us down for too long at least. This global economy is going to open some serious doors for any black man willing to try different things.


I also disagree with that poster's statement that White Supremacy is everywhere. Since in many countries there's no concept of whiteness but just of nationality/ethnicity there cannot be white supremacy. As in Russia, for example-- the countries around it always complained about Russian hegemony, not " white" hegemony. Even if the Russians looked very light and the oppressed masses were Asians.

There was one African guy who became a Russian national and ran for office in some town. There were some prejudiced people there who did not want to vote for him. They were saying-- "we want a Russian guy to run"; they did not say " We want a white guy to run". It's not America there. White is not a national/ethnic/racial identity. It's not listed as such anywhere there.

When the Russians moved to Uzbekstan, the Uzbeks would not say--oh, look there come the whites! They would say "Urus iyde"-- the Russians are coming!

For example, Kazakhstan wanted to kick the ethnic Russians out-- it was not an anti-white move; it was an anti-Russian move. The conflict is not "Asians" against "Whites".

The same with many colonial powers; even France in Africa-- it was not "the whites are coming"; it was" the French are coming'!

Even when the Brits came to China, it was a foreigners/Westerners vs. Chinese conflict. Not a White vs Asian one.

The problem with racism in Russia is that some 60% of Russians are very nice and friendly and easy to get along with, some 30% are just indifferent and cold, and some 10% are racist a**holes. And you will be meeting all of them.

In the US, there are maybe 3% who are nice and friendly and everyone else is just indifferent and does not want to meet anyone who is not an old friend. Many are racists but they keep it inside so you just never know what they are thinking.
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Postby kai1275 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:15 pm

JamesSa wrote:Kai,


I don't have anything else to add to this. Spot on! There is no escape. They won't hold all of us down for too long at least. This global economy is going to open some serious doors for any black man willing to try different things.


I disagree. It's a limiting belief, which I once had. Where are you now?

You can at least escape the American brand of racism, which I personally find among the worst in the world. As a black man in Moscow, I am actually treated better, even though I was warned that racism here in Moscow would be worse than in America (some of my friends showed me YouTube videos to convince me not to go).

Other countries are actually quite "black" friendly, although many are not, either - which is why I travel in the first place. My purpose is to explore where I can live peacefully and be respected as a man. If I can be treated better in Moscow than in NY, then certainly there are even better places than Moscow since it is a city assumed to be not friendly towards people of color.

Let me also add that I get TONS of attention from many beautiful women in Moscow, which I never received in the US. My girlfriend is perpetually jealous and always tries to go through my laptop or view my phone and Skype. Her fear would be non-existent in the states.


I am in Houston. Yeah there are racist folks all over the place, but my career is good and I get a little more than good enough respect. More than certain disadvantaged black folks like Trayvon for example, but regardless you cannot escape racism in the US by going to any country worth living in. Our reputation is shitty anywhere you look. People abroad probably think I am African I bet, or make little to no distinguishable difference.

The way I see it, I don't really give two shits anymore. The direction America is going into is poor vs the rich/connected anyway. Skin color will always matter but it will hurt the poorer ones the most. If Trayvon was born into a better educated family that was not poor and ignorant he would have had enough good sense to run home if some skinhead or big white guy chased him, instead of trying to be a tough guy and fight. This is not 1970 anymore, people have f***ing guns out here. Wanna bet money Trayvon probably was sagging his pants too? All the dumbass kids and delinquents do this here. I had good parents that never allowed that sort of behavior. We were not rich but we did not look and act like the clowns Bill Cosby rants about.

White people still clutch their purses when they see me in the elevator, the donut store, etc. and I have on a suit and tie, expensive swiss watch, shoes, nice car, etc. It doesn't matter what anyone black here does, the result is always the same. Some people abroad look at me with a very concerned look on their face.

You have to have a "f**k you, Pay Me." mindset to live as a black man and be successful. That is the reality everywhere. I wish it wasn't like that but it is. I see opportunities in this global economy to make tons of money, and I am working on that. No one can retire properly working for another man anymore. I am not going to rely on some shity 401K if I can help it. I am getting more business acumen and skills right now because I am not talking about some small beans stuff either. High tech, engineered designed stuff for huge business clients. If I do well enough, the wife and I can always go live somewhere else later. Maybe China will be nicer 20-40 years later for us to retire there, who knows.

I guess what I am saying is, I don't give a shit how white people here look at me or try to treat me. I could care less. I got 99 problems and racist folk really ain't one of them. I want to help others, but I have to do it the right way. I cannot help anyone with certain stuff until I achieve those things first. So far, all I can offer is a blueprint on how to search for a wife, and young guys in college with career advice, and so far a few have done well so far. We shall see...
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Postby ladislav » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:14 pm

I said in a prior comment that I could distinguish between more extreme looks. Your pictures clearly demonstrate this. However, some non-Slavs/non-Scandinavians/non-Anglos here in Moscow could easily pass for Northern Europe, at least to me or to the average American.


Oh, I see. But I'm just curious-- now, but when in the States does this American person:

Image

He is of Italian origin

And this American person:

Image

Evoke the same reaction in you? Do you say, "Oh, a white man" to both?

I'm just curious if your mind would put the same label on both while in America.
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!
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Postby aozora13 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:20 pm

JamesSa wrote:I am a black American expat temporarily living in Moscow with my girlfriend.

Before I tackle your question, let me briefly share my experience with this website since it coincides with my answer to the topic raised here. First, I occasionally posted on this forum a few years ago, but stopped because this site ostensibly deviated from its central mission. More specifically, the majority of topics became more about bashing Western women and debating race issues than about being "happier abroad".

After finally becoming an expat for the first time in my life this year, the topic of this very thread confirms the stereotype about America's race obsession.

Still, I do pop in here from time to time, and will answer your question from my perspective.

Why do Blacks continue to want to live in the USA or any other White-dominated country?

Let me ask you: What is a "Black" person? As you might imagine, there is no one, unified "black culture". Semantics aside, I will assume you mean specifically African-Americans, not people of primarily African descent from other parts of the world who come to the USA or Europe. The latter group usually comes to the USA because of the economic opportunities - the same as any other immigrant group. In fact, African immigrants are among the most successful immigrant groups (in terms of income and education) in the US, if not the most, according to a 2000 United States Census Bureau data. Here's a Wikipedia summary of African immigration education levels:

African immigrants to the U.S. are among the most educated groups in the United States. Some 48.9 percent of all African immigrants hold a college diploma. This is more than double the rate of native-born white Americans, and nearly four times the rate of native-born African Americans.[12] According to the 2000 Census, the rate of college diploma acquisition is highest among Egyptian Americans at 59.7 percent, followed closely by Nigerian Americans at 58.6 percent.[13][14]
In 1997, 19.4 percent of all adult African immigrants in the United States held a graduate degree, compared to 8.1 percent of adult white Americans and 3.8 percent of adult black Americans in the United States, respectively.[15] According to the 2000 Census, the percentage of Africans with a graduate degree is highest among Nigerian Americans at 28.3 percent, followed by Egyptian Americans at 23.8 percent.[13][14]
Of the African-born population in the United States age 25 and older, 87.9% reported having a high school degree or higher,[16] compared with 78.8% of Asian-born immigrants and 76.8% of European-born immigrants, respectively.[17]
Africans from Nigeria (89.1 percent), Ghana (85.9 percent), Botswana (84.7 percent), and Malawi (83 percent) were the most likely to report having a high school degree or higher. Those born in Cape Verde (44.8 percent) and Mauritania (60.8 percent) were the least likely to report having completed a high school education.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States#Educational_attainment

Another interesting observation is that more Africans are choosing to go to China to study rather than to the US or Europe. Over the last 10 years, China has partnered with Africa in helping to build roads and hospitals, improve infrastructure, and a lot more. In return, many African countries have benefited from low-cost Chinese goods.

Furthermore, 6 of the 10 fastest growing GDPs in the world are in Africa. Not surprisingly, Africa is being called the "new Asia" by many economists, or the "new Lion" to Asia's "tiger". Some reports show that Africa already has a larger middle class than India. McKinsey and Co. highlights this surprising data, which is even more remarkable when you consider that India has a larger population:

http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/economic_studies/whats_driving_africas_growth

On Africa's remarkable economic growth:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/techonomy/2012/11/09/africa-is-rising-fast/
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/daily_chart
http://www.ventures-africa.com/2012/08/the-7-fastest-growing-economies-in-africa/

Another trend is many educated, highly-skilled African professionals who work for global corporations in Europe and America are actually repatriating to Africa to help build the continent. Such highly-skilled repatriation benefited China and India during their economic renaissance, by the way. Here is a CNN report on the growing trend of African repatriation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/25/business/africa-repats-business

Lastly, did you know that there are crisis-ridden Europeans who are moving to Africa for work? For example, Portuguese are moving to Angola and Mozambique in large numbers to escape a sagging economy while both African countries are booming economically. Don’t take my word for it; here is another CNN report on this movement:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/15/business/mozambique-portugal-economy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/16/portuguese-exodus-angola-el-dorado

Check out this long line of Portuguese trying to move to Africa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhNyRNLyH9I

And Angolans are now investing in Portugal's struggling banks, which is ironic considering where Angola was 20 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N0K6J20Tuo

That said, I'll address the rest of your questions.

As an Asian American, I see just how badly Blacks are mistreated in the USA. I also know the feeling of hate and discrimination towards my race, and how angry and resentful I got because of that. So then...why do Blacks continue to want to live here? All I see is Blacks complaining and whining about their situation, but it hasn't done any good, has it? Honestly, very little has changed since the Civil Rights Movement. I see many Blacks, to be honest, angry and frustrated with their situation. Many Blacks harbor great hatred and resentment towards White people (and many other groups such as Mexicans and Asians) but it's hard not to see why Blacks feel this way.

I think part of the answer has to do with where these blacks are located. In certain US cities, blacks are doing comparatively well. For example, compare Detroit to Atlanta. In Atlanta, black professionals thrive and enjoy a very high standard of living. There is very little to complain about. However, in cities such as Detroit or Philadelphia, there are many problems.

Also, racial tension, whether towards whites or towards other minority groups, is varied based on the socio-economic climate and general distinctive attitude of the city. While there is tension between blacks and Mexicans in California, this same level of tension isn't as pervasive in Texas, for example.

Why do blacks not get along with whites or other minority groups in America? Heck, blacks can despise themselves: Hatians vs black Americans vs Jamaicans vs Dominicans vs Nigerians!

In any event, it is not always true that blacks despise other minority groups. Anecdotal evidence is no substitute for objective data, but here’s a personal nugget: when I lived in NYC, I observed blacks enjoying generally good relations with Puerto Ricans in the city. I also saw blacks dating and befriending many other races. Even my ex-girlfriend was Guyanese - she was of East Indian and Chinese ancestry. So it is not true that there is always tension with other minority groups.

But then, having said all this, why do Blacks continue to pour into Europe and the USA--if they know they will be mistreated in those countries. It's the same way with how Asians are brainwashed to believe that everything 'Western' is somehow better than their own. I've always said that Asians would be a lot happier if they stayed in their own countries rather than immigrating to Western countries, en mase. Think of it: I'm on my way to permanently living in Asia in the future; I want-out of the country. Why don't more Blacks think like me, and escape their situation?

I answered this question in the foregoing comments, but I'll expand on it considering I am now an expat temporarily in Russia. First, blacks are not universally mistreated in Europe nor are they disliked on the same level as they are in America. It depends on the country. From reading accounts online and corresponding with other Black expats and citizens, blacks are for the most part content in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, France, Germany, and Finland. However, Spain and Italy tend to be comparatively harsher towards their stay from what I have read. I can’t conclude whether this is true, however.

Second, blacks do not necessarily occupy the bottom of every European country's social hierarchy. In the United States, yes, they are at the bottom.

In many parts of Eastern Europe, Roma people and Turks are often at the bottom and highly discriminated against, not blacks. In fact, I have several acquaintances from Hungary who frequently complain about Gypsies in much the same way people complain about blacks in the US! The Gypsies are always assumed to be "on drugs" and commit "the most crimes" and are "lazy and won't work." Sound familiar? Yet the few blacks in Hungary do not cause any problems and are treated like any other immigrant group. They may look different and receive some looks occasionally, but at least they aren't the despised Roma!

Or take Bulgaria. The Roma there are treated as second-class citizens (as they are elsewhere). Look at this report on Roma (gypsy) discrimination which is committed even more by educated Bulgarians:

http://fpif.org/bulgarias_educated_among_those_likely_to_discriminate_against_roma/

Discrimination against Roma people is so bad, that the UN had to get involved. Check it out:

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2011/10/un-rights-office-urges-end-to-roma-discrimination-in-bulgaria.php

Turks occupy the lowest levels of society in Germany and face widespread discrimination. Whether blacks there are treated worse is up for debate. Perhaps the German posters here on this site can answer that question. Anyhow, there are Neo-Nazis who target Turks in Germany, including this incident recently:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 97186.html

Even in Turkey itself, the Kurds are that country's version of African-Americans. I've even heard of Turks complaining about Kurdish people giving native Turks a "bad name" throughout Europe, including in Germany.

In Russia, people from the Caucus are, despite their fair skin (ironically enough), called "black" and belong to that country's list of most despised. In America, they would be considered white, but not so in Russia! My Russian girlfriend never liked them nor would she date them, and neither would her friends. (If she grew up in America, however, she would probably date them over me since I would now be subject to America's race/social hierarchy.)

Caucus people are so despised that I've heard St. Petersburg is even trying to prevent them from entering the city. In Moscow, there have been riots and protests in recent years against Caucus people, especially after a Moscow theater bombing and a stabbing of a Russian (Egor Sviridov) during a football match.

Moreover, Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese in Moscow are often mistaken for Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan people. These groups are usually low-wage migrant people and are often treated with contempt at times.

http://themoscownews.com/local/20130411/191431375.html

Unfortunately, other East Asians get lumped in with them due to ignorance.

On the other hand, as a black American in Moscow, it is a great feeling to go to a restaurant and usually be treated well. I am very impressed by the service and how they sometimes go out of their way to make sure I’m well. It’s almost a breath of fresh air: there is no preconceived racist assumption that I am “ghettoâ€￾ or a “bad tipperâ€￾. In America, that assumption would hold true in spite of who I really am, and the service that follows would not be as good. Fortunately, I can leave that racial baggage behind while outside of America. Nevertheless, customer service in general is worse in Russia than in America (my girlfriend will tell you!).

The vitriol of White America towards Blacks has shocked me in a lot of ways...

Maybe the vocal minority of White America. The same group that lost the Presidential election.


+1

Excellent post JamesSA! I am glad you brought to light how being in America does make black (American) males continually thing that they cannot go up the food chain in other cultues. I was in Europe and mostly the issues I had was that there was illegal immigration in Vienna, Austria which has caused constant document checks on the train. However, beyond a few issues which are common in that country. The issues, I had in other countries in Europe were no problem. Even in Latvia and Estonia. While in Lithuania it was a different story in Vilnus.
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Re: Why do African Americans want to live in the U.S.?

Postby E Irizarry R&B Singer » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:58 am

Chad114 wrote:


@Chad114,

Please refrain from using the word "ain't". I loathe that word.
Secondly, Marcus Garvey was not too keen on assisting "half-breeds" back to Africa.
It's time to expatriate to evade your fate; it's time to expatriate before the barn door permanently closes on "US" sheep.
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Re: Why do African Americans want to live in the U.S.?

Postby Chad114 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:02 am

E Irizarry R&B Singer wrote:
Chad114 wrote:


@Chad114,

Please refrain from using the word "ain't". I loathe that word.
Secondly, Marcus Garvey was not too keen on assisting "half-breeds" back to Africa.


Could it be the same half-breeds that ridiculed him for being a "Black Gorilla"?

I'll refrain from saying aint as soon as you promise to stop using effeminate infantile black males in your avatar it aint a good look.
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Postby JamesSa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:39 am

Ladislav,

Good question.

After being in Russia, I would now readily identify the first as Italian/Mediterranean/Baltic. But the second (the "American") could be Russian to me. Had I remained in the US, both would just be "white" to me, as they probably would be to most Americans since they haven't been exposed to other country's racial/ethnic hierarchies. As you said, Russia doesn't employ a race system, unlike America.

Take the Boston terrorist bombing for example. Many Americans were surprised to find out they were not Arab. After they saw how they really looked and where they were from (the Caucus), I heard many express disbelief. Many online comments and in person were a variation of how "Islam is so dangerous that it can even brainwash whites". In other words, most Americans clearly identified them as white who were brainwashed by Islam.

Not so in Russia; they were neither white nor Russian. They were just the despised Caucus people.
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Postby JamesSa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:44 am

aozora13 wrote:
JamesSa wrote:I am a black American expat temporarily living in Moscow with my girlfriend.

Before I tackle your question, let me briefly share my experience with this website since it coincides with my answer to the topic raised here. First, I occasionally posted on this forum a few years ago, but stopped because this site ostensibly deviated from its central mission. More specifically, the majority of topics became more about bashing Western women and debating race issues than about being "happier abroad".

After finally becoming an expat for the first time in my life this year, the topic of this very thread confirms the stereotype about America's race obsession.

Still, I do pop in here from time to time, and will answer your question from my perspective.

Why do Blacks continue to want to live in the USA or any other White-dominated country?

Let me ask you: What is a "Black" person? As you might imagine, there is no one, unified "black culture". Semantics aside, I will assume you mean specifically African-Americans, not people of primarily African descent from other parts of the world who come to the USA or Europe. The latter group usually comes to the USA because of the economic opportunities - the same as any other immigrant group. In fact, African immigrants are among the most successful immigrant groups (in terms of income and education) in the US, if not the most, according to a 2000 United States Census Bureau data. Here's a Wikipedia summary of African immigration education levels:

African immigrants to the U.S. are among the most educated groups in the United States. Some 48.9 percent of all African immigrants hold a college diploma. This is more than double the rate of native-born white Americans, and nearly four times the rate of native-born African Americans.[12] According to the 2000 Census, the rate of college diploma acquisition is highest among Egyptian Americans at 59.7 percent, followed closely by Nigerian Americans at 58.6 percent.[13][14]
In 1997, 19.4 percent of all adult African immigrants in the United States held a graduate degree, compared to 8.1 percent of adult white Americans and 3.8 percent of adult black Americans in the United States, respectively.[15] According to the 2000 Census, the percentage of Africans with a graduate degree is highest among Nigerian Americans at 28.3 percent, followed by Egyptian Americans at 23.8 percent.[13][14]
Of the African-born population in the United States age 25 and older, 87.9% reported having a high school degree or higher,[16] compared with 78.8% of Asian-born immigrants and 76.8% of European-born immigrants, respectively.[17]
Africans from Nigeria (89.1 percent), Ghana (85.9 percent), Botswana (84.7 percent), and Malawi (83 percent) were the most likely to report having a high school degree or higher. Those born in Cape Verde (44.8 percent) and Mauritania (60.8 percent) were the least likely to report having completed a high school education.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States#Educational_attainment

Another interesting observation is that more Africans are choosing to go to China to study rather than to the US or Europe. Over the last 10 years, China has partnered with Africa in helping to build roads and hospitals, improve infrastructure, and a lot more. In return, many African countries have benefited from low-cost Chinese goods.

Furthermore, 6 of the 10 fastest growing GDPs in the world are in Africa. Not surprisingly, Africa is being called the "new Asia" by many economists, or the "new Lion" to Asia's "tiger". Some reports show that Africa already has a larger middle class than India. McKinsey and Co. highlights this surprising data, which is even more remarkable when you consider that India has a larger population:

http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/economic_studies/whats_driving_africas_growth

On Africa's remarkable economic growth:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/techonomy/2012/11/09/africa-is-rising-fast/
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/daily_chart
http://www.ventures-africa.com/2012/08/the-7-fastest-growing-economies-in-africa/

Another trend is many educated, highly-skilled African professionals who work for global corporations in Europe and America are actually repatriating to Africa to help build the continent. Such highly-skilled repatriation benefited China and India during their economic renaissance, by the way. Here is a CNN report on the growing trend of African repatriation:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/25/business/africa-repats-business

Lastly, did you know that there are crisis-ridden Europeans who are moving to Africa for work? For example, Portuguese are moving to Angola and Mozambique in large numbers to escape a sagging economy while both African countries are booming economically. Don’t take my word for it; here is another CNN report on this movement:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/15/business/mozambique-portugal-economy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/16/portuguese-exodus-angola-el-dorado

Check out this long line of Portuguese trying to move to Africa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhNyRNLyH9I

And Angolans are now investing in Portugal's struggling banks, which is ironic considering where Angola was 20 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N0K6J20Tuo

That said, I'll address the rest of your questions.

As an Asian American, I see just how badly Blacks are mistreated in the USA. I also know the feeling of hate and discrimination towards my race, and how angry and resentful I got because of that. So then...why do Blacks continue to want to live here? All I see is Blacks complaining and whining about their situation, but it hasn't done any good, has it? Honestly, very little has changed since the Civil Rights Movement. I see many Blacks, to be honest, angry and frustrated with their situation. Many Blacks harbor great hatred and resentment towards White people (and many other groups such as Mexicans and Asians) but it's hard not to see why Blacks feel this way.

I think part of the answer has to do with where these blacks are located. In certain US cities, blacks are doing comparatively well. For example, compare Detroit to Atlanta. In Atlanta, black professionals thrive and enjoy a very high standard of living. There is very little to complain about. However, in cities such as Detroit or Philadelphia, there are many problems.

Also, racial tension, whether towards whites or towards other minority groups, is varied based on the socio-economic climate and general distinctive attitude of the city. While there is tension between blacks and Mexicans in California, this same level of tension isn't as pervasive in Texas, for example.

Why do blacks not get along with whites or other minority groups in America? Heck, blacks can despise themselves: Hatians vs black Americans vs Jamaicans vs Dominicans vs Nigerians!

In any event, it is not always true that blacks despise other minority groups. Anecdotal evidence is no substitute for objective data, but here’s a personal nugget: when I lived in NYC, I observed blacks enjoying generally good relations with Puerto Ricans in the city. I also saw blacks dating and befriending many other races. Even my ex-girlfriend was Guyanese - she was of East Indian and Chinese ancestry. So it is not true that there is always tension with other minority groups.

But then, having said all this, why do Blacks continue to pour into Europe and the USA--if they know they will be mistreated in those countries. It's the same way with how Asians are brainwashed to believe that everything 'Western' is somehow better than their own. I've always said that Asians would be a lot happier if they stayed in their own countries rather than immigrating to Western countries, en mase. Think of it: I'm on my way to permanently living in Asia in the future; I want-out of the country. Why don't more Blacks think like me, and escape their situation?

I answered this question in the foregoing comments, but I'll expand on it considering I am now an expat temporarily in Russia. First, blacks are not universally mistreated in Europe nor are they disliked on the same level as they are in America. It depends on the country. From reading accounts online and corresponding with other Black expats and citizens, blacks are for the most part content in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, France, Germany, and Finland. However, Spain and Italy tend to be comparatively harsher towards their stay from what I have read. I can’t conclude whether this is true, however.

Second, blacks do not necessarily occupy the bottom of every European country's social hierarchy. In the United States, yes, they are at the bottom.

In many parts of Eastern Europe, Roma people and Turks are often at the bottom and highly discriminated against, not blacks. In fact, I have several acquaintances from Hungary who frequently complain about Gypsies in much the same way people complain about blacks in the US! The Gypsies are always assumed to be "on drugs" and commit "the most crimes" and are "lazy and won't work." Sound familiar? Yet the few blacks in Hungary do not cause any problems and are treated like any other immigrant group. They may look different and receive some looks occasionally, but at least they aren't the despised Roma!

Or take Bulgaria. The Roma there are treated as second-class citizens (as they are elsewhere). Look at this report on Roma (gypsy) discrimination which is committed even more by educated Bulgarians:

http://fpif.org/bulgarias_educated_among_those_likely_to_discriminate_against_roma/

Discrimination against Roma people is so bad, that the UN had to get involved. Check it out:

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2011/10/un-rights-office-urges-end-to-roma-discrimination-in-bulgaria.php

Turks occupy the lowest levels of society in Germany and face widespread discrimination. Whether blacks there are treated worse is up for debate. Perhaps the German posters here on this site can answer that question. Anyhow, there are Neo-Nazis who target Turks in Germany, including this incident recently:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 97186.html

Even in Turkey itself, the Kurds are that country's version of African-Americans. I've even heard of Turks complaining about Kurdish people giving native Turks a "bad name" throughout Europe, including in Germany.

In Russia, people from the Caucus are, despite their fair skin (ironically enough), called "black" and belong to that country's list of most despised. In America, they would be considered white, but not so in Russia! My Russian girlfriend never liked them nor would she date them, and neither would her friends. (If she grew up in America, however, she would probably date them over me since I would now be subject to America's race/social hierarchy.)

Caucus people are so despised that I've heard St. Petersburg is even trying to prevent them from entering the city. In Moscow, there have been riots and protests in recent years against Caucus people, especially after a Moscow theater bombing and a stabbing of a Russian (Egor Sviridov) during a football match.

Moreover, Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese in Moscow are often mistaken for Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan people. These groups are usually low-wage migrant people and are often treated with contempt at times.

http://themoscownews.com/local/20130411/191431375.html

Unfortunately, other East Asians get lumped in with them due to ignorance.

On the other hand, as a black American in Moscow, it is a great feeling to go to a restaurant and usually be treated well. I am very impressed by the service and how they sometimes go out of their way to make sure I’m well. It’s almost a breath of fresh air: there is no preconceived racist assumption that I am “ghettoâ€￾ or a “bad tipperâ€￾. In America, that assumption would hold true in spite of who I really am, and the service that follows would not be as good. Fortunately, I can leave that racial baggage behind while outside of America. Nevertheless, customer service in general is worse in Russia than in America (my girlfriend will tell you!).

The vitriol of White America towards Blacks has shocked me in a lot of ways...

Maybe the vocal minority of White America. The same group that lost the Presidential election.


+1

Excellent post JamesSA! I am glad you brought to light how being in America does make black (American) males continually thing that they cannot go up the food chain in other cultues. I was in Europe and mostly the issues I had was that there was illegal immigration in Vienna, Austria which has caused constant document checks on the train. However, beyond a few issues which are common in that country. The issues, I had in other countries in Europe were no problem. Even in Latvia and Estonia. While in Lithuania it was a different story in Vilnus.


You're welcome; glad you found my post useful.
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Postby JamesSa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:17 am

Just as different groups are lumped into the "white" category in America, the same logic applies to different groups who find themselves involuntarily pigeonholed into the "black" category. But in Russia, they often make the distinction between Africans and African-Americans (or French & UK blacks).

Fortunately, I'm not boxed in with other Africans, especially when they discover I am from the states. Indeed, my Russian girl actually thinks it is fashionable and even a "status symbol" in Moscow to be with me. Her coworkers extend invitations to parties or to socialize with them. Meanwhile, her mother prepares meals and offers me to visit her country house 45 minutes outside of Moscow.

Still, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that my social status could actually be higher than in America. Sometimes, I lapse into my "but I'm black" complex that I had in the states. Perhaps it's paranoia. I do occasionally receive looks when I am with my woman, but they are not usually negative. Sometimes, even a welcoming smile or a flirtatious wink.

In short, I am able to walk with pride and dignity whereas in America, I would always just be "a black guy" - with all the accompanying bad stereotypes that phrase connotes.

I encourage other "black" Americans to leave the states. In many countries, you will just be seen as an American and by extension enjoy a much higher social status, especially if the destination country already has its own despised minority group. In America, you will always be at the bottom and have too big of a bad reputation hurdle to overcome.

The same immigrants who are able to pass African-Americans in the US are not able to do so in many places elsewhere. As long as you exhibit class and avoid stereotypical "thug" behavior, you can be respected abroad in many places.

Let me remind you: this is Russia we are talking about. So this is proof that black Americans can raise their social status abroad.

Why be at the bottom in America where even immigrants think they are better than you?
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Postby JamesSa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:48 am

ladislav wrote:
JamesSa wrote:Kai,


I don't have anything else to add to this. Spot on! There is no escape. They won't hold all of us down for too long at least. This global economy is going to open some serious doors for any black man willing to try different things.


I also disagree with that poster's statement that White Supremacy is everywhere. Since in many countries there's no concept of whiteness but just of nationality/ethnicity there cannot be white supremacy. As in Russia, for example-- the countries around it always complained about Russian hegemony, not " white" hegemony. Even if the Russians looked very light and the oppressed masses were Asians.

There was one African guy who became a Russian national and ran for office in some town. There were some prejudiced people there who did not want to vote for him. They were saying-- "we want a Russian guy to run"; they did not say " We want a white guy to run". It's not America there. White is not a national/ethnic/racial identity. It's not listed as such anywhere there.

When the Russians moved to Uzbekstan, the Uzbeks would not say--oh, look there come the whites! They would say "Urus iyde"-- the Russians are coming!

For example, Kazakhstan wanted to kick the ethnic Russians out-- it was not an anti-white move; it was an anti-Russian move. The conflict is not "Asians" against "Whites".

The same with many colonial powers; even France in Africa-- it was not "the whites are coming"; it was" the French are coming'!

Even when the Brits came to China, it was a foreigners/Westerners vs. Chinese conflict. Not a White vs Asian one.

The problem with racism in Russia is that some 60% of Russians are very nice and friendly and easy to get along with, some 30% are just indifferent and cold, and some 10% are racist a**holes. And you will be meeting all of them.

In the US, there are maybe 3% who are nice and friendly and everyone else is just indifferent and does not want to meet anyone who is not an old friend. Many are racists but they keep it inside so you just never know what they are thinking.


Excellent points. Let me further add "colorism" to your list. Therefore, each country's social hierarchy is different: it may either be racial, ethnic, national, religious, or it may be based on color (such as Brazil). Or it could be a combination of them, with one in particular carrying more weight than the others. In America, the race component carries the most weight. In Russia, it's ethnic or national, just as you said.

As it turns out, the idea of global "White Supremacy" is an American or perhaps Anglo phenomenon. I didn't realize this fact, however, until going abroad.
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Postby Teal Lantern » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:37 pm

JamesSa wrote:Just as different groups are lumped into the "white" category in America, the same logic applies to different groups who find themselves involuntarily pigeonholed into the "black" category. But in Russia, they often make the distinction between Africans and African-Americans (or French & UK blacks).

Fortunately, I'm not boxed in with other Africans, especially when they discover I am from the states. Indeed, my Russian girl actually thinks it is fashionable and even a "status symbol" in Moscow to be with me. Her coworkers extend invitations to parties or to socialize with them. Meanwhile, her mother prepares meals and offers me to visit her country house 45 minutes outside of Moscow.

Still, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that my social status could actually be higher than in America. Sometimes, I lapse into my "but I'm black" complex that I had in the states. Perhaps it's paranoia. I do occasionally receive looks when I am with my woman, but they are not usually negative. Sometimes, even a welcoming smile or a flirtatious wink.

In short, I am able to walk with pride and dignity whereas in America, I would always just be "a black guy" - with all the accompanying bad stereotypes that phrase connotes.

I encourage other "black" Americans to leave the states. In many countries, you will just be seen as an American and by extension enjoy a much higher social status, especially if the destination country already has its own despised minority group. In America, you will always be at the bottom and have too big of a bad reputation hurdle to overcome.

The same immigrants who are able to pass African-Americans in the US are not able to do so in many places elsewhere. As long as you exhibit class and avoid stereotypical "thug" behavior, you can be respected abroad in many places.

Let me remind you: this is Russia we are talking about. So this is proof that black Americans can raise their social status abroad.

Why be at the bottom in America where even immigrants think they are better than you?


Non-Westerners seem to make a distinction between "permanent" minorities who they may have to compete with for jobs, etc., vs. "visiting" minorities who are there spending money.
In some places, the vitriol directed towards the local despised minorities is ... something to behold. :shock:

I once heard an interview with a black American woman who'd relocated to Paris and spoke perfect French.
She discovered that although she spoke French perfectly, she was treated much better in shops & stores if she spoke broken French with an American accent. :lol:
They stopped hating & ignoring her, once they realized she wasn't a local dark-skinned Muslim.
не поглеждай назад. 8)

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Postby ladislav » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:52 pm

Excellent points. Let me further add "colorism" to your list. Therefore, each country's social hierarchy is different: it may either be racial, ethnic, national, religious, or it may be based on color (such as Brazil). Or it could be a combination of them, with one in particular carrying more weight than the others. In America, the race component carries the most weight. In Russia, it's ethnic or national, just as you said.

As it turns out, the idea of global "White Supremacy" is an American or perhaps Anglo phenomenon...


Colorism does not elevate colors to the status of 'nationalities'. It does not make ethnicities out of them. A black Brazilian is still a Brazilian. This is how Latin America is.

In the US, otoh, black people talk about the "Nation", they have their own accent and dialect, they say "our nationality is African-American", etc. These are not legally accepted concepts according to international laws, but they are real inside the US.

When I was in Saudi with a whole bunch of US military guys, the Saudis prepared all kinds of IDs and papers for us and they were all in Arabic. I had friends translate them.

The Saudis just put for everybody:" nationality: American". Then they were concerned about religion: Christian or Muslim? That was it.

Arabs only have those two concepts- your citizenship and your religion.

Americans who were there would otoh try to classify Saudis- "oh that guy is a Black Saudi". But there's no such thing. A Saudi is a Saudi. End of the story. And it does not depend on birthplace-- it depends on what citizen you are. And anyone who speaks Arabic fluently is an Arab.

Many people are born in Saudi Arabia, but they do not have citizenship-- the father is not Saudi.

Even Osama Bin Ladin is not considered a Saudi by Saudis because he has/had no citizenship there. His family was from Yemen but they were naturalized in Saudi Arabia nbut then he was stripped of his Saudi nationality so he is not a Saudi.

But Americans keep harping- "Saudi-born,Saudi born."..well it means jack shyt there if you are born there or not.

Then, I was talking with Brits who had been to Russia and they were saying that there were "White Russians and Asian Russians". Again, they were trying to classify Russia by using thier categories as if Russia was part of their Empire-- most still think they have it. But I tried in my mind to translate into Russian the term-- "white Russians"-- it just means "royalists". Asian Russian?- untranslatable- and no such thing. It's like saying "canine cat".

In the US another thing sucks- for immigrants, that is-- and some people care and some do not but there are terms such as-" foreign-born, German-born, etc" Then, there's "American, born and raised". So, naturalization does not really make you a full American. People and media still talk about you by mentioning the old country, calling it your "homeland" (even though an oath of renunciation was taken by you where you rejected it) and calling you an immigrant until the day you die. Both an illegal person and a naturalized citizen are just "immigrants".

But, for example, in the Philippines, there's no such thing. A Filipino citizen is a Filipino. End of the story. So, anyone who becomes a Filipino citizen will be seen as a Filipino, and then you are classified by the language you speak -- so you just learn one Philippine language and you 'become' that group. End of the story! An easy system. The trick is to become a Filipino citizen-- that is very hard.

One Filipino clerk in Saudi was complaining to me about the behavior of one American guy-- a Louisiana Cajun. The Filipino asked him: "What is the nationality of your wife?" ( not very polite to my mind, but Filipinos love asking people's nationality out of the blue and they mean just that--citizenship.)

So, the Cajun guy told the Filipino-" My wife is Anglo-Saxon".

The Filipino guy was pissed and he was complaining to me--" What kind of nationality is that? Anglo Saxon! What the f-ck is that? What does he mean? Why is he talking in riddles? Does he think I'm some kind of idiot?"

Why can't he just say" My wife's nationality is American", "My wife's nationality is Canadian'? I mean easy, simple but he keeps on saying "Anglo Saxon, Anglo Saxon..."

Non-Westerners seem to make a distinction between "permanent" minorities who they may have to compete with for jobs, etc., vs. "visiting" minorities who are there spending money.
In some places, the vitriol directed towards the local despised minorities is ... something to behold.


The same with Jews in E. Europe. Local Jews are hardly there anymore because of vicious hatred against them-- this is why the State of Israel was formed to begin with-- because Jews were kicked out of Poland, Lithuania, etc.

However, a visiting ( or even long term resident) American Jew is lauded and treated very well. Some American Jews are in Russia now marrying all those Slavic women and the women are so proud-" Oh, I now have an ... American husband".

But if it is a local Jew ( who may be a distant cousin of that American Jew) he is treated like a Paki in England.

Speaking about "Pakis" in England-- I knew one guy who was such a "Paki"- of course he had a British passport, and he was born there- but socially, he was just a Paki- he will never be English. He had trouble dating and with social life and he developed a complex. He got called a "bloody wog", etc.

Well, he then went to Latvia to live and became a hero there. He was now "a guy from England" and all these blonds now wanted to date him. So, he became an Englishman in Latvia while he could never be one in the country of his birth. He's now permanently relocated there.

You do what you've gotta do.
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Postby JamesSa » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:49 pm

Ladislav,

I would argue just the opposite: Colorism may in fact elevate to the status of race or nationality. To use your very example of Brazil, there is no "one-drop" rule, unlike in the US. While a black Brazilian may just be Brazilian, darker Brazilians are still disproportionately poor and disenfranchised, many of whom live in favelas.

The elites in Brazil tend to be those whose phenotype is white European. Although Brazil has the largest number of former African slaves in the Western hemisphere, most of its actors, actresses, business leaders, and people in positions of power are largely European in their external appearance. Even more, brancos make almost double that of "black" Brazilians, and are far more literate and educated. Black Brazilians often face discrimination in getting jobs and decent education. Middle to upper management jobs are reserved for the elite in the country.

In fact, the idea of a colorblind Brazilian society has long been debunked as myth many, many years ago within Brazil itself. Check out these books:

    Black into White: Race and Nationality in Brazilian Thought - by Thomas E. Skidmore
    Blackness Without Ethnicity: Constructing Race in Brazil - by Livio Sansone
    The Mystery of Samba - by H Vianna


To summarize, having more "Euro" features confers a substantial social advantage in Brazil. To the extent that having such features contributes to greater social mobility, then its social hierarchy is a form of Colorism.
Last edited by JamesSa on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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