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Teaching English in China without college degree?

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Teaching English in China without college degree?

Postby magnum » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:48 pm

know after July the laws changed making it a bit scandal to teach English without a degree, but I've gotta ask if it's still possible, if anyone is doing it and how hard they're coming down on schools about the credentials of the teachers.

From what I read, they can charge the school or the teacher for 100k RMB and the crazy part is, you can be rejected exit of the country until you pay that money back, effectively jailing you in china as teaching English was probably your only source of income in the first place.

I'm curious if any of you are teaching now or know of anyone teaching and if the risk is really all that bad, I'm interested in doing this my self, but I don't want my relationship and my life to be destroyed because of something like this.

The articles I've read though seem very biased though, I know a lot of it's true, I just don't know the extent of the crack down.
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Postby kai1275 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:10 pm

http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/qualifications-teaching-english.htm

Section I: Teaching English in China continued—Teaching Qualifications and Requirements

Qualifications and Requirements to Teach English in China

The following three chapters address the current qualifications and requirements, both in law and as a matter of practice, to teach English in China. The third chapter discusses the advantages of earning TEFL certification prior to your first teaching job and what you should consider when exploring various EFL teacher certification programs.

Minimum Qualifications

To be legally employed in China you must enter the country with a work visa (Z-visa: See unit in this guide on "Obtaining a Z-visa"). Work visa requirements are based on guidelines established by China's State Administration for Foreign Expert Affairs (SAFEA). There are currently two categories of foreign experts in China: 1) Foreign educational, scientific, cultural and medical experts, and; 2) Foreign economic, technical and managerial experts. EFL teachers fall into the first category.

The guidelines state that a "foreign educational expert," or teacher, "should hold a minimum of a bachelor's degree and more than two years of experience." The work experience does not necessarily have to be in the field of education, but can be in any area deemed appropriate or relevant by the prospective employer. As the SAFEA guideline uses the Chinese character for the word "should," instead of "must have" or "needs to have," there has been a great deal of "flexible" interpretation across provinces regarding the minimum educational requirement over the years. While a bachelor's degree is generally regarded as the de facto minimum educational requirement to legally teach in China, this currently appears to be the exception instead of the rule—although there are many anecdotal reports that this is gradually changing. Certainly, the better paying and more satisfying jobs would only be available to those with a minimum of a bachelor's degree, and, more likely than not, prior teaching experience in one's native country. However keep in mind that the SAFEA regulations are strictly advisory and that each province, autonomous region, and municipality is free to adopt their own rules and procedures for issuing foreign expert certificates and residency permits.

Another thing you need to be aware of—when considering potential employment in China or understanding the rationale for the following section (qualifications in practice)—is that the role of most foreign English teachers in China is de-professionalized. As a rule, foreign "teachers" in China are predominantly used as "oral English" practice aids which, in reality, translates to facilitating and improving the students' listening and speaking skills. The mechanics and more technical aspects of English (grammar, sentence structure, writing and reading skills) are essentially delegated to the Chinese English teachers only (although there are a few exceptions) who teach English primarily in Chinese by a gross over-reliance on (and through the excessive drilling of) rules of grammar in a manner that completely defies the current body of knowledge regarding second language acquisition. In the context of this misguided and futile approach, even the most advanced and experienced foreign teacher, for the most part, is perceived and treated as little more than an assistant teacher to the real Chinese teachers who the Chinese truly (and falsely) believe are in a much better position to teach English to Chinese students. It is an academically unsound and indefensible bias but it is a rather strong, prevailing and ubiquitous one in China.

Unfortunately, the limited role of the foreign English teacher in China as described above is—in effect—dictated by law. Article 6 of the 1992 Rules for the Administration of Employment of Foreigners in China states:

The post to be filled by the foreigner recruited by the employer shall be the post of special need, a post that cannot be filled by any domestic candidates for the time being but violates no government regulations.

Thus the presence of foreign English teachers in China can only be legally justified by educationally compartmentalizing the teaching of English into four distinct parts, i.e., reading, writing, listening, and speaking, and then assigning only the practice of listening and speaking skills by a native speaker to the foreign teacher, as this creates a post that cannot be filled by domestic candidates. Strictly speaking, any employer that hired a certified Western English teacher to teach English in an integrated manner across all four skill sets would be in violation of Chinese law.

Consequently, although English as a foreign language has been required curriculum for the past 20 years—from 3rd grade through college—and despite the fact that most Chinese, under the age of 35, have studied English for a total of at least nine years, what you will mostly encounter is a population of people who cannot communicate at all in English unless they are currently attending university (and not necessarily even then). Chinese career educators attempt to sidestep the serious implications of this reality by trumpeting their relatively high CET and TEM exam scores as if this entirely settles the question regarding how effective their English teaching methods are. That these exams are compiled without the assistance of real foreign experts, that they are both invalid (i.e., don't measure what they claim to) and unreliable in predicting a student's real ability to use English functionally, that educators essentially teach to the actual answers on these exams, and that former copies of these exams can be downloaded from the Internet, appear to be nonissues to China’s educational leaders.



Section I: Teaching English in China continued—Teaching Qualifications and Requirements

Teaching Qualifications and Requirements in Practice

Last Updated: August 31, 2011

In practice, a significant schism exists in regard to teaching qualifications in China: As a rule, public schools and universities will require a minimum of a bachelor’s degree while private English language schools will be far more interested in an applicant’s ability to successfully engage and retain their student population irrespective of education, teacher training, and—especially in underdeveloped cities and remote locations—even experience.

But I Love Chinese Food
In reality—as the private sector is the largest employer of foreign teachers in China—the majority of people teaching English in China do not meet the minimum requirements, i.e., a bachelor’s degree and at least two years of relevant work experience. The bottom-line is that if you are a White native speaker of English from Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the U.K., or the U.S. (i.e., the "Big Five"), especially between the ages of 22 and 45, you will be able to find a job teaching English in China with or without a degree, prior teaching experience, or a TEFL certificate.

If you have read the chapter on China’s Education System, the reasons for this are already clear to you: The humanities, including foreign languages, are relatively devalued in China as academic disciplines and, consequently, the teaching of English has been compartmentalized into four separate skill sets and de-professionalized in that the role of the foreign English teacher is reduced to simply facilitating the practice of listening and speaking skills. In the vast majority of cases, it is both fair and accurate to think of the foreign teacher as the Chinese English teacher’s teaching assistant. Everyone in China knows that this vocationally limited position can be neatly filled by just about anyone who speaks English natively, looks the part, is friendly, and has the patience of Job.

Consequently, although China’s SAFEA has established specific advisory minimum requirements for the hiring of foreign English teachers, the vast majority of provinces have failed to adopt them and those that have generally fail to enforce them. In great part, the tolerance—if not wholesale acceptance—of unqualified foreigners can be explained by the fact that the rapid and tremendous proliferation of private English language schools across the country has created an insatiable demand for foreigners that simply cannot be satisfied by those who actually meet the minimum qualifications. However, this once statement of fact may be slowly changing and it appears that the question regarding which teaching requirements have been adopted and are enforced in China is becoming a superfluously moot one.

Strong anecdotal evidence now suggests that the recent economic meltdown in the United States has resulted in an ever increasing percentage of applications from more highly qualified candidates than ever before, overrepresented by degreed young adults with white-collar jobs (and an absence of strong family obligations or significant financial debt) and those who have recently graduated with a master’s degree in education and can’t find suitable employment back home (or can’t afford to live on their starting teachers’ salaries given the relatively higher cost of living). If this trend continues, it will have two predominant effects on the EFL industry in China: Employers will be able to demand more work for the same (or less) money and unqualified teachers will be far less competitive for the most desirable teaching positions and locations. There are indications that this trend has already begun to have adverse market effects in that several qualified teachers with advanced degrees working at universities have reported contract hours of 18 to 20 periods per week (as opposed to the traditional 12 to 14) and several foreign teachers at private schools have complained that mandatory office hours are being unilaterally imposed (without additional pay).

Despite this recent increase in better educated applicants, the vast majority of private English language schools are far more concerned with a Westerner's ability to successfully engage young children in a classroom than they are with a bachelor's degree. Generally speaking, an attractive young woman from one of the "Big Five" Western countries with just a TEFL certificate and a proven track record as an EFL teacher in China will be far more desirable to any private English language school than a middle-aged man with a master's degree in an unrelated field who has never taught or traveled before. A notable exception to this rule comprises joint-venture schools and Western universities with campuses in China: They strictly adhere to the minimum requirements and seek out professional educators only. Related, universities and colleges in China will insist upon a minimum of a bachelor's degree and, as of 2008, an increasing number are holding out for foreign teachers with a minimum of a master’s degree. However, what universities in China say they want juxtaposed with what they realistically need (in terms of actual job function) and are willing to pay for are rarely one and the same.

Occasionally, a university will genuinely need a foreign English teacher with a master’s degree or doctorate to teach in a graduate program in linguistics or foreign language but that type of position is relatively rare in China and the salary differential is nominal. Generally speaking, a recent college graduate with a degree in sociology and a 55-year old doctor and former professor of linguistics, with 20 years of graduate school teaching experience, will be assigned the same classes in oral English with an average salary differential of no more than 800 yuan (US$117.00) per month.

Fake Degrees and TEFL Certificates

The vast majority of private English language schools in China simply do not care what type of education you have just as long as you are capable of engaging their students and keeping them coming back for more. If the school happens to be in a province that has adopted and enforces the bachelor’s degree requirement, owners have been known—if they are unscrupulous enough—to save you the trouble and will simply forge a degree on your behalf if they really need you (although you can easily imagine how such a school, in turn, regards and treats its foreign English teachers: You might want to consider spending some time in a North Korean prison camp as a more rewarding alternative). In addition, and especially in the absence of more qualified applicants, a university's FAO can always petition the municipal foreign affairs office for special dispensation to hire a foreign teacher who does not meet the SAFEA minimum requirements. In such an instance, one would be teaching legally in China without the benefit of a bachelor’s degree.

Aside from unscrupulous schools that manufacture fake degrees for their teachers, we personally do not know of nor have we ever heard of even one Chinese employer ever validating a foreign teacher’s credentials. As long as the digital copy of the diploma looks good enough, it is never questioned. Rarely do employers ask for accompanying transcripts or original documents. Consequently, it is not surprising that one recent study revealed that at least 40 percent of all foreign teachers in Taiwan had procured employment using fake degrees (Bruyas, 2007). That is, while Taiwanese employers claim to hire only foreign teachers who have a bachelor’s degree, what they are really doing is hiring foreign teachers who are in possession of a convincing Photoshop’d replica of a degree.

Nevertheless—and despite the fact that Chinese school owners and universities simply don’t care enough about English language teaching to verify the authenticity of their teachers’ degrees—using fake degrees does incur a certain element of risk as it makes you entirely vulnerable with other foreign teachers who will be able to accurately assess your background over time. Unlike the vast majority of our Chinese employers, other Westerners understand the subtleties of the English language and have a much better intuitive feel and appreciation for how four to eight years of post-secondary education affects thinking processes, viewpoints, and self-expression. You can fake a college degree with Chinese employers but you can't fake four to six years of a decent liberal arts education among better educated foreigners unless you are otherwise extremely well-read and very well-spoken.

One such Westerner—pretending to have a "3-year university degree with a joint major in sociology and anthropology"—was exposed in time as a fraud when over the course of several normal conversations he inadvertently revealed that he did not understand what "biweekly" meant (thinking that it meant twice weekly) and that he had never read, heard, or used the words "nuance" and "scrotum" before (referring to the latter as a "ball bag" and becoming visibly uncertain and momentarily silent when the proper term was used). One need not run a background check on his name and passport number to ascertain that not only had he never attended college, it is unlikely he even completed high school. Once discovered, he was reported by another foreign teacher to the school's vice principal who, in turn, informed the owner of the school. The teacher in question was demoted (he had been the school's head teacher) and his contract was not renewed. Chinese private school owners can easily accept a foreign teacher who is relatively uneducated just as long as he is effective in engaging their students: However, the thought of having been "cheated" or "lied to" is completely intolerable to them. He was actually quite fortunate to have been working for a private school at the time because if he had used that fake degree to obtain employment at a university, once discovered and confirmed, the consequences would have been immediate and much more severe, i.e., fines, deportation, and permanent banning.

The reality is, unless you are determined to teach English at a university without possession of a real degree, the use of fake degrees is essentially unnecessary. Finally, rarely does the absence of a TEFL certificate deter a prospective employer from hiring a foreign teacher if he likes everything else he has seen on the applicant’s curriculum vitae. Our best and certainly safest advice is that if you don't have a real degree then limit your job search to private English language schools exclusively. If you find yourself having difficulty securing employment in the more desirable locations without a college degree, then shift your job search to the less sought after areas, e.g., northern and western China.

Issues of "Race" and Nationality

Another reality, in regard to teaching English in China, involves the issues of race (ethnic background) and one’s country of origin. For the most part, and especially with private language schools, foreign teachers are hired as much (even more so) for their overall appearance and ability to attract new students as they are for their teaching skills. The reality in China today is that White and relatively young faces from the United States, Canada, England, Australia and New Zealand are considered best for business. Many highly qualified foreign teachers, particularly of Black and Chinese descent, as well as those from countries other than the aforementioned five, have reported varying degrees of difficulty finding employment in China, although a few do with a great deal of persistence, especially if they happen to already be in China.

Foreign teachers of Asian and African descent should avoid private language schools altogether and should focus their job search on public (government) schools and universities only. There is a great deal of debate about whether those who are facing obstacles based on race and nationality should focus their attention on large cities or small, remote locations. Some argue that schools in large international cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou will be more desensitized to issues of race and nationality due to the far greater preponderance of foreigners from Europe and other parts of Asia in these major cities—and, in fact, we know of several teachers from the Philippines and India, as well as Spain and Germany, who are teaching in these international cities. Others claim that, owing to the law of supply and demand, those who are not White or nationals of the “Big Fiveâ€￾ should limit their job search to remote locations where the competition will be negligible. Virtually everyone is in agreement that personal appearances can go a long way in overcoming many of the obstacles one might otherwise encounter via e-mail correspondence only.

By all means, be honest and straightforward about who you are and where you come from. Many non-native speakers will attempt to obfuscate their nationality by initially withholding a copy of their passport or, far worse, by attempting to initially pass themselves off as a different nationality altogether (e.g., a native of France with recent Canadian citizenship presenting himself as a “bilingual Canadianâ€￾), hoping that once contact is made the truth of the situation won’t matter as much. Of course, this never works and it automatically precludes one from consideration where there might have otherwise been a chance if not for the initial attempt at duplicity.

Unfortunately, Western-born Chinese do face a particularly difficult situation in China more so than any other group of foreigners seeking employment. The reality is that most mainland Chinese do not consider Western-born Chinese to be either fully Western or Chinese and so they often encounter biases and discriminatory practices that most Caucasian foreign teachers do not have to deal with. One American-born Chinese girl we worked with, whose ancestors were originally from Guangdong province, was in tears most of time as the Chinese would often chastise her for not being a "real Chinese," yet, at the same time, the parents would frequently complain to the private school's administration that they shouldn't have to pay a higher rate for classes with a foreign teacher because the "Chinese girl" was not a "real foreigner." This bias is highly prevalent across China and, again, may be overcome through personal appearances at public schools and universities.

For a very personal and in-depth discussion of the enormous difficulties faced by non-White, non-native speakers in China, it is suggested that you read the article titled Teaching English in China for Non-White, Non-Native Speakers.

Focus Your Job Hunt and Choose Wisely

During your job hunt, try to find a public school or university that actually uses foreign teachers differentially based on education and experience (easier said than done). Certified primary and secondary school teachers should limit their search to international schools or those that are joint ventures with established Western academic institutions. Private schools that engage the services of a Western manager (e.g., head teacher) or director of studies (DOS) might also tend to value the role of the foreign teacher more than the majority do.

Those with doctoral degrees and academic backgrounds in fields other than English should focus their search on International Schools within large key public universities (see unit Teaching in Fields Other Than English).

Finally, if you do decide to accept a position at a private language school, especially if you are doing so without proper qualifications, it is highly recommended that you make certain you have access to enough money to return home if need be, as schools that tend to hire unqualified people are where the most severe abuses and exploitation of foreign teachers occur.


Section I: Teaching English in China continued...
Teaching Qualifications and Requirements

EFL Teacher Certification Programs

There is a great deal of debate on various China EFL teachers' forums about the necessity and usefulness of EFL certificate training programs for teaching English in China. This chapter will discuss those issues as well as what we think you should look for when exploring various options.

Assuming the program is a legitimate one that has been in existence for some time and adheres to the basic standards outlined below, we believe that EFL teacher training is most certainly useful for those who have never taught English as a foreign or second language before. Acquiring some knowledge of second language acquisition theory and specific EFL teaching methodologies will prove to be invaluable once you are actually inside the classroom. Such training will be less critical for teachers who are assigned EFL textbooks in which the teaching methodology is already built into the curriculum, as is the case with the New Interchange Series (see chapter on China Oral English Curriculum), but those who are thrown into less structured situations—especially at the university level in China where there is often no assigned course textbook, in addition to very little structure, feedback, and guidance—may very well feel lost without this type of preliminary preparation.

EFL teaching certificates can realistically be thought of as a necessity for Westerners who would like to teach in China but do not already have a degree in hand. Most private English language schools in China will accept these certificates in lieu of a university degree and, more to the point, so too will most municipal public security bureaus (PSBs) for issuing Z-visas and residency permits. For those who have degrees and especially some teaching experience, the possession of an EFL teaching certificate might make you more competitive for your first teaching position—all things equal—but you'll definitely be able to find employment as an EFL teacher in China without one.

Your three basic choices are TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language), TESOL (Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages), and CELTA (Certificate of English Language Teaching to Adults). Some have argued that, of the three, the CELTA credential is the most standardized with the greatest degree of worldwide recognition as it is administered by Cambridge, so all training programs much be accredited (it is apparently the most desirable certification to have in Europe). The reality is that the three programs have far more in common than otherwise. Having just written this, it is also true that the absence of any accrediting body for TEFL and TESOL programs creates an opportunity for just about anyone to start and promote a new TEFL training school. In China, all that would be required is a simple business license.

Due to the absence of an accreditation body that can enforce minimum requirements, TEFL and TESOL programs come in all shapes and sizes designed to meet just about anyone's budget—including online programs, the least expensive of all. Tuition commonly ranges in price from $495, for an online course, to over $6,000 at an Ivy League School, i.e., tuition varies considerably by institution and certification type, and especially program duration. If all you are seeking is a piece of paper that allows you to obtain employment as an English teacher in China, then, quite frankly, it doesn't matter at all which program you choose. On the other hand, if you hope to acquire some practical knowledge and the opportunity to gain supervised teaching experience so that you may actually know what you are doing before you start getting paid to do it, then the certificate training program you eventually select makes a great deal of difference.

Recommended Criteria for Selecting a TEFL Training Program

There are hordes of programs out there competing for your business and it is very difficult to know which program is best. Although it is true that there is no official accrediting body that monitors TEFL certification, industry standards state that internationally recognized TEFL courses should meet the following criteria:

Minimum 4 weeks in duration
Minimum of 120 hours of training
Principal instructor should have a minimum of a field-related master's degree and 6 years of TEFL experience.
Minimum of 6 hours of observed practice teaching with real and representative students
Input sessions on teaching methodology and grammar
Continuous assessment throughout the TEFL course
For schools operating in China, it would also be a good idea for you to check whether the course is registered with the Ministry of Education or if it is simply licensed to run as a local business and, in addition to the above criteria, you should always inquire about how long the school has been in existence.

A very safe bet would be to check for TEFL and TESOL (teaching English to speakers of other languages) programs that are offered by local universities in your area (as opposed to tertiary institutions that simply rent space to free-standing programs). Most local colleges and universities that have English language and education departments usually offer these types of certification programs and the curricula are typically first-rate. An excellent example of such a program is the intensive 6-week summer TESOL certificate training program at Columbia University's Teachers College. We know of one English teacher in China who can't stop raving about it. Of course, at a total tuition fee of just over $6,000 ($1,000 per week), it should be excellent.

Two useful resources for learning more about EFL teacher training programs and advanced degree programs in TESOL are ESL Base and TESOL Certification, respectively.
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Re: Teaching English in China without college degree?

Postby momopi » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:29 am

magnum wrote:know after July the laws changed making it a bit scandal to teach English without a degree, but I've gotta ask if it's still possible, if anyone is doing it and how hard they're coming down on schools about the credentials of the teachers.


If your goal is to be in Japan, then you should probably ask English teachers in Japan about the expected requirements. Suppose if the better jobs require BA degree, teaching cert and experience, China might be one solution to obtaining the experience requirement. But you'd still need to get a BA degree from an accredited university. While it is possible to be an English teacher without a bachelor's degree (numerous web sites on this subject), not having the degree means less choices and opportunities.

If an oversea English teacher with BA degree tell you that it's pointless/worthless to get a college degree, don't bother trying and you're better off staying where you are, that person doesn't want you to come and compete against him in the same job market.
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Postby magnum » Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:00 am

Thanks for the information, I guess not much has changed on the subject then, it's all paperwork and scare tactics as far as I'm concerned.


online college while teaching English in china seems to be more and more the rout I want to go.
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Postby zboy1 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:51 am

magnum wrote:Thanks for the information, I guess not much has changed on the subject then, it's all paperwork and scare tactics as far as I'm concerned.


online college while teaching English in china seems to be more and more the rout I want to go.


Yeah, my college degree was done online, and I'm teaching in China, so don't worry about it. Here are a few suggestions in terms of reputable online colleges:

UMASS Online--University of Massachusetts

UMUC--University of Maryland University College

Penn State Online World Campus--Penn State University

Depaul University Online--Depaul University

CUNY School of Professional Studies--The City University of New York Online

San Jose State University Online--San Jose State University
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Postby magnum » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:55 am

I figure I could teach without a degree as much as it would suck.....and try my hand at getting a engineering degree with a online college, save up cash, once I get my college paper, branch out and pray the over seas market is still what it is now, by the time i'm 35... i'll still look young and be in even better shape, no matter if I marry my girl friend or not, I don't see finding a woman over seas a problem after that amount of success.
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Postby tre » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:17 am

magnum wrote:I figure I could teach without a degree as much as it would suck.....and try my hand at getting a engineering degree with a online college, save up cash, once I get my college paper, branch out and pray the over seas market is still what it is now, by the time i'm 35... i'll still look young and be in even better shape, no matter if I marry my girl friend or not, I don't see finding a woman over seas a problem after that amount of success.


There are many online degrees you can get, but I really don't believe that Engineering is one of them. Engineering is one of the hardest Bachelors Degrees you can get. You might be able to knock out some beginner courses toward the degree online, but I think you will find that you'll need to be in an actual classroom for the latter half at very least. Also, Internships (starting your Junior year) are just as important as getting the degree. The Engineers that have a hard time finding jobs are those that didn't get the experience outside of school. Engineering is also what I plan to go into so I've done alot of research about it. I recommend you do the same as you may find that another Degree may be better suited for your goals (to get out of the country ASAP). Getting a degree in Engineering is a serious commitment....
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Postby Dragon » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:49 am

tre wrote:
magnum wrote:I figure I could teach without a degree as much as it would suck.....and try my hand at getting a engineering degree with a online college, save up cash, once I get my college paper, branch out and pray the over seas market is still what it is now, by the time i'm 35... i'll still look young and be in even better shape, no matter if I marry my girl friend or not, I don't see finding a woman over seas a problem after that amount of success.


There are many online degrees you can get, but I really don't believe that Engineering is one of them. Engineering is one of the hardest Bachelors Degrees you can get. You might be able to knock out some beginner courses toward the degree online, but I think you will find that you'll need to be in an actual classroom for the latter half at very least. Also, Internships (starting your Junior year) are just as important as getting the degree. The Engineers that have a hard time finding jobs are those that didn't get the experience outside of school. Engineering is also what I plan to go into so I've done alot of research about it. I recommend you do the same as you may find that another Degree may be better suited for your goals (to get out of the country ASAP). Getting a degree in Engineering is a serious commitment....


He's right. I'm studying engineering a legitimate state school. Engineering is considered a professional degree, meaning it involves licensing. That means it requires serious rigor and professional standards as dictated by ABET. Any engineering program not certified by ABET is worthless, and as far as I know, ABET does not certify any online undergraduate degree program in engineering.

Also, think about this: would you trust your surgeon if he told you he received his medical degree online? I don't think so. Medical degrees are also professional degrees. You wouldn't trust an engineer to build anything or be competent if he never had any access to the extremely expensive hardware and machinery available in most state/private brick and motor universities with certified engineering programs. Not to mention having face to face access to professors who often times have massive experience in industry and a lot of connections.
I am a terrible person.
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Postby momopi » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:09 pm

I got my MBA from University of Phoenix. They have an online school that offers BA in education. However the cost is not cheap. It is possible to find State colleges with cheaper online courses, and some do not charge out of state (non resident) fees for online classes. It's easy to find education degrees offered online but not engineering.

Check Adams state, Peru state, Troy, Fort Hayes, U of Wyoming, etc. Many web sites and blogs on thus subject. I cannot speak about the quality of education at these online schools so you will have to do your own research. My $0.02 is that you should consider at least attending some classes on campus for the college experience.
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Postby Ghost » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:30 pm

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Last edited by Ghost on Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby magnum » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:35 pm

I think it's a good thing they're getting more serious about it and making the laws tougher however, my situation requires me to by one of the bad guys at the moment
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