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Thanks for creating this website, it has been very inspirational to read about your dating success abroad. I'm a white American guy but I still feel like we have a lot in common, as we are both excluded from the dating game due to extreme prejudice here. My theory is that American girls' hatred for Asian guys is really based on short stature, not shyness or nerdiness as some American women claim in order to justify their prejudice. (I think it's all about height because I've known shy nerdy Asian guys who were tall and thus they did very well with American girls). I'm just over 5 feet tall so I'm lumped into the same undateable category, disqualified by the majority before I say a word.
I would probably still be a virgin if I hadn't gone to Costa Rica to see a "professional" and get the monkey off my back. I don't regret that trip for a second, but I'd like to have a real relationship and love. I'm 27, still never had a girlfriend, and have tried everything from online dating, riding a motorcycle to even studying massage therapy. Even PUA didn't work for me, despite all the "seduction community" BS about height not being an issue unless you make it an issue for yourself. PUA was the last straw for me, as I wasted many thousands of dollars on their seminars and products and they filled me up with delusions and dreams that will never happen. I've decided I have to leave this country and start a new life abroad, one that doesn't involve eternal misery, loneliness, depression and anxiety.
My parents are unsupportive and can't believe I would give up my IT career to teach English in South Korea. My dad says that I will not have better success with foreign women. He tries to make me feel guilty for not being married yet, since so many of my friends have done just that. He fails to see the difference is that my friends are spoiled and come from money, and are normal height, but I've been dealt a really bad hand. Its my life and I'm not going to let them talk me out of doing what I need to do.
I'd prefer a South Korean girlfriend since that's where I'll be teaching English. I may have a hard time over there since I'm much shorter than the average Korean male. If it doesn't work out in Korea my backup plan is to find a wife somewhere in South East Asia and bring her to live with me in Korea, where I can make a decent salary and still be far away from my painful past in America. Where would I have the best opportunities? Thailand, Cambodia, Philippines?
Last edited by jaymcgoff on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
I can't answer your question specifically, since I've no experience with Asia, which I suppose is where you'll be hunting. A lot of people, some of whom could probably answer the question, check in here irregularly, so someone should bump this thread until you get a helpful response. I'd just throw in a couple of points.
First, don't sell yourself too short (pun intended). Have you ever heard of "the sex thimble," Dudley Moore? Yes, he was a well-known actor, but at 5-2 he was a legendary ladies' man long before he became rich and famous. To some extent, the PUA people are right -- your mind can create barriers for you that don't necessarily have to be there. Once you start thinking you're attractive to women, you will become much more so, and for that bit of mental sleight-of-hand, from what I've read here it sounds like the Phillipines is the place to go, if you want your confidence built up.
Secondly, while my experience abroad has been mostly in Europe, my distinct impresssion is that these superficial criteria such as height are far less important outside the U.S. Croatia was certainly a revelation for me. There was a really beautiful young Croatian girl, a bright college student with perfect English, who would light up like a Christmas tree every time she saw me, even though she was three inches taller and 37 years younger. Yes, you read that right. No question it would have been on if I hadn't met her just two days before I had to leave.
American women have their superficial "check list" of criteria because they are superficial people whose culture doesn't allow them to grow up. Best just to take a stand with Dad, and go. Once you've developed the working hypothesis that things would be better abroad, you really have to check it out or be forever questioning your decision not to. And at your age, you've got plenty of time to shift gears if the hypothesis doesn't hold up.
Any country in southeast asia you'll find beautiful, humble women that are easy to please, theres lots of women under 5' so you should feel comfortable around them. The general consensus on this forum is that the Philippines is the best country in world for meeting women. Cebu is probably the best city start with, you won't have any trouble getting dates there and it has an international airport.
Welcome and good question. I sense your frustration and don't know if you've already got your mind set on Asia (good choice for shorter ladies), but my experience in Europe is that southern Italy and Spain tend to have shorter ladies, too. I just did a google search for the height of Italian women and it told me 5'4", which seems about right. My wife is from northern Italy and is 5'5". Don't worry about competition from the Italian guys. Despite their "lover" reputation, the Italian women generally don't like them, since they're womanizers and mama's boys, who live at home with mama until they're 40.
Stay away from the Netherlands and Estonia, since they have the tallest average people in Europe (think 5'10" and starting). I've been to Sicily a couple of times and the women there are gorgeous, and tend to be even shorter, as most of the Sicilians are. I'd guess the women there are 5'2" on average. Also, try Malta.
Good luck, and don't get discouraged. It's a big world out there, and the American women are the worst of them. Just broaden your horizons and don't let your Dad get you down. I have great respect for my father's opinion, but I won't hesitate to disagree with him. After all, YOU are the one who has to live with your decisions in life, NOT HIM. So, do some exploring, check things out and do what's best FOR YOU and not for your family.
Check out this wikipedia country-by-country height comparison, for a starting place. You can click the arrows in the average female height column, to sort by shortest to tallest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_heig ... _the_world
Here is the first several, by shortest women to the tallest:
Bahrain (not a good choice, if you're Jewish)
Iraq (also not a good choice, if you're Jewish)
China, etc., etc.
It appears that Mexico also tends to have rather short people, and it's just across the border. I've met some drop-dead gorgeous Mexican women before (mainly from the Guadalajara area).
Let us know how it goes.
Last edited by Think Different on Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Interesting note: The Netherlands also has the densest population in Europe, as well as the tallest average people. My theory is that the country is so crowded that the only place they have to grow, is upwards!
Sorry, my little dumb joke.....
The danger in dating a taller woman is that she may be ok with it at first, but often later on she will regret it and realize that she would be happier with a taller man. That has happened to me before.
Gsjackson, the PUA people are only right to a very small extent. Dudley Moore may be one exception, but there are millions of other examples that prove that height is an issue. One in a million does not debunk a general rule.
The fact is, you can tell yourself that it's not an issue or that you are tall. But if you aren't, people will still see you as short.
Question for the "thoughts/attitude creates reality" people:
Everyone thought the Titanic was unsinkable. They didn't make an issue out of it. But that didn't prevent it from sinking did it?
On the morning of December 7, 1941, the American sailors at Pearl Harbor didn't make an issue out of being attacked. But they did.
The lesson is you can't control what others think, regardless of your own attitude about yourself.
I approached thousands of women thinking that I was hot and desired, but that didn't make me hot and desired. I never made an issue out of my race, but women did.
Check out the latest posts in our blog The Happier Abroaders.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
You've come to the right place. I'm going to give you a bit of very simple advice on how to find that girl and get lots of dates and romance while you're looking. And what I tell you won't cost $1,000s or give you delusions. This is the real deal. Your life is about to change.
First, you gotta get yourself ready for this. If possible, lose the Orthodox Jewish 'uniform'. Average people in most Asian countries just won't know what to make of you looking that way. Dress and groom as a young and stylish clean cut westerner. You might wanna get special shoes designed to give you an extra 2-3" of height too, especially if you target slightly taller girls (5'4" give or take). That last step might seem a bit deceptive. But I've learned that once a girl starts having feelings for you, her standards drop. For example, some guys lie about their age in the beginning to avoid being disqualified. By the time they come clean, the girl may decide to stay since she is already somewhat attached. Of course, she might also get pissed about the lies and vanish so its a calculated call. Anyway, special shoes are not nearly as blatant as openly lying and besides, lying in much of Asia is par for the course.
Second, a few words of encouragement and confidence booster. As far as your appeal to young attractive Asian girls goes, I believe its a bigger sin to be very old than to be very short. Yet, many of these very old western guys still get lots of attention from young females in places like the Philippines or even China. Now if you target short girls, especially sub 5 footers, your relative shortness becomes a negligible in many to most cases. Here in Taiwan, I often see girls dating guys several inches shorter than themselves. Just two days ago, I went to a chic restaurant and spotted a student type 5'8" girl hugging and kissing a 5'4" local guy, presumably her boyfriend.
Third, where are all the shorter Asian girls? All over the place man! Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Indonesia are filled with girls who stand 4'8" to 5'1". Thailand and southern China, especially smaller cities and rural areas, have plenty of them too.
So lets narrow it down. In my opinion, Cambodia and Vietnam are like different planets for you as far as mentality and culture goes. Their young girls are generally impoverished peasants who speak incomprehensible tonal languages and whose parents suffered unimaginable conditions. You are an educated first world Jewish American. Do you imagine one of these girls is going to fall in western style love with you? Well, nothing is impossible. But I would give 50/1 odds if I were to bet on it not happening.
Thailand is tough too. Those girls fall tend to fall easily into and out-of love. They live for the moment and are very fickle. If you go the distance with them, you will likely find that their real loyalty lies with mama and the family. You are more of an after thought. Some of them even give-up their own mixed children for the sake of their parents or selfish lifestyle.
Now China might be doable. Chinese culture tends to favor males and some women can genuinely commit for the long haul. They also tolerate monotony and boredom well, have a strong work ethic and highly value their own child and even husband as long as he behaves like a real man in the Chinese sense. But you may end-up feeling controlled and smothered, especially at home. Chinese gals like to run the household and may demand that you come home immediately after work and spend most of your free time with her and perhaps her family too. And of course, you will need to learn the language and/or dialect of your target and acclimate to the culture which requires a challenging learning curve.
If you just can't be bothered with learning a lot of Asian culture and want the fastest solution, then focus on the Philippines. Download and read Larry Elterman's book "A Man's Guide to Life and Love in the Philippines". From that, you can decide on which city or area you want to target.
I think your biggest obstacle is being stuck in Korea. Here are a couple of ideas to get around that. After you accumulate 6-12 months of experience, leverage it to move on to Taiwan where you can get much shorter and more flexible teaching work for the same pay. Or apply to Taiwan off the bat. Not only does Taiwan offer more flexibility, but its also just a short flight from Manila. The cost of living is lower than Korea and the girls are friendlier too. One of my friends teaches intensely in Taipei for 5 months per year and spends the remainder living it up in Pattaya Thailand. You might be even be able to swing a decent Taiwanese girlfriend. There are a fair number of short Taiwan girls, especially outside of Taipei. Depending on the type of IT background you have, you might be able to secure a company job here too. There are often IT related job postings and many are open to foreign nationals.
If you decide to pursue Chinese gals, then leverage your Korean experience or apply off the bat to schools in China. China is so big that you will need to spend a lot of time researching this option but generally, girls are shorter in the south (Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Hunan to name a few) and in smaller cities (sub 500,000 pop) or rural areas.
Ideally, you could find a totally portable career so you could be based in the Philippines. Research teaching English online (talk to Ladislav).
Now once you find your dream girl and marry her, you can also consider taking her back to the States and continuing your IT career there. You will have proven dad wrong and still keep him happy.
Last edited by Rock on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Coleman was just 4'8", broke, and in his 40s before he died earlier this year. Yet he's pulled some attractive young girls over the last few years. His last wife was 17 years his junior.
I'm Asian and 6' tall. Yes height has its advantages, but sometimes it's @#%@#% annoying. I've had friend's relatives asking to introduce their daughters to me just because "oh he's tall". Well, when farmers want to buy a cow or horse o sheep, they'd look at the teeth and the hooves. Nobody asked to see my teeth or feet. In other words, these same people, if they were farmers, would spend more time and effort when shopping for a farm animal, than a potential son in law.
I'd caution you against reading too much into existing height stats by nation, because they're averages and does not necessarily reflect the younger generation. In many poor-er countries, nutrition was poor for the older generation, so their body height were low. But the younger generation raised on McDonalds will be much taller. i.e. my Vietnamese friend and his father are both very short, but his younger brother, born and raised in the US, is 5'10". On paper the people of country XYZ are short, but you need to look at the age group for a better comparison.
Also, there are wide regional variations. For example, in China, men in the north are taller than men in the south. My grandfather was originally from Manchuria and he was 5'11" before old age. Besides genetics, the diet between North and South are also different. I was raised on noodles, dumplings, lamb, beef, etc., versus my "southern" friends in Taiwan ate steamed rice, veggies, and pork.
Yes women are concerned about the man's height, in the same way that men are concerned about their women's appearance outside of the door. You can be short in slippers at home and nobody cares. But if she's out with you, she wants to be seen with a taller man. If you're shorter, you can wear shoe lifts and gain 2"-4":
If you want to go to SE Asia and find shorter women, try countries that are under-developed, like Cambodia, Vietnam, and Indonesia. I used to travel to Singapore for work a lot and the younger-generation women there aren't that short. 10+ years ago, you could go to places like Westminster, California (Little Saigon) and meet many FOB and 1.5 generation short Vietnamese girls. But today most of the younger Viet girls there are raised in the US and the better nutrition equates to taller height.
In China, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc., the native tribes who were marginalized into the mountains from the dominant ethnic group, tend to be shorter in height due to environmental pressures. There are many missionary groups that go to those tribal areas, but if you're Orthodox Jew, I don't think that's do-able for you.
Also, if anybody thinks it's dumb to wear shoe-lifts, consider that girls wear heels and expect you to be taller.
Well, if you approached thousands of women thinking you were hot and desired after getting evidence to the contrary from, say, two or three, then you just weren't assimilating the data correctly. But I think you exaggerate, and that your confidence took a hit early on in adolescence. There's just no question that confidence and certainty sell in American culture. There is a fat fool on the radio named Rush Limbaugh who makes tens of millions of dollars every year because he dispenses his ignorance with absolute and total certainty. Americans need to be told what to think, because they don't do any for themselves.
And that brings me to a news flash: height, race, socio-economic status, etc. are not nearly so big a handicap with American women as is intelligence. They find any inclination to use your mind for something besides making money to be weird and threatening, and shun it like the plague. I'm quite serious. You used to be able to get away with being a "thinker" with some women in this country, but not any more.
I've been blessed with the sort of looks most women like, and high socio-economic status as a lawyer, college professor, etc., but I can blow it easily by opening my mouth and letting thoughts come out. If you want to pull American chicks, it's not that hard. Just get a mind at peace with yourself, have a reasonably healthy body, smile at them, lock eyes and keep your mouth shut. Some won't be buying, but plenty will be, regardless of things like height, etc. Many of them are looking for just a safe port in the horrid storm of American life, and the more non-threatening you are the better. But who wants to come home to a woman who makes you check your brain at the door?
The ball game is indeed mainly in the mind when it comes to pulling women. But the key move is deciding what culture produces the sort of women you want to pull.
I lived in the Netherlands for several years, and the couple in the apartment next to me was a short guy with a beautiful tall girlfriend, so I wouldn't necessarily write off the Netherlands, especially if you like tall women.
Sounds like a radical idea for him. How tall was the guy and how many inches taller was the girl?
Height is entirely relative. In parts of Holland, the average bloke stands 185 cm and girl about 175 cm. For a guy like Jay who's probably about 155 cm, a very tall woman would be about 160-165 cm. A tall environment is only going to make him feel even shorter and further diminish his dating prospects.
Ever hang-out with a bunch of college basketball players? If so and you're 6'3" or under, you probably felt very short. But if you're 5'8" and visit areas of Vietnam or Cambodia populated only by locals, you'll feel about as tall as a 6'5" guy walking around Manhattan. Over 90% of the heads you see will be lower than yours.
I would estimate that he was about 5â€™5â€ and she was about 5â€™11â€™â€™. Also, itâ€™s not that uncommon in Europe to see shorter men with taller women. In my opinion, American Women are the most height intolerant women in the world and you arenâ€™t even in the game unless you are over 5â€™ 10â€. In American a good looking woman less the 5â€™ will demand a man over 6â€™ tall. Also, when I was in Holland, where bike riding is big and considered a legitimate form of transportation, I saw several examples of the woman peddling the bicycle with the male passenger riding side saddle on the back of the bike.
I've been wondering if all this focus on confidence as one of the ultimate aphrodisiacs in America is something which isn't necessarily true in other countries. As a deep thinker, I personally can't stand other men who are "confident" when the words coming out of their mouths are complete and utter bs.
How much does confidence matter outside the anglo-sphere?
There used to be a term in the old English vernacular, the "Confidence Man", which is most definitely not a good thing.
Confidence without the goods to back it up = poser, liar, fake (ie. 30K Millionaires - google it)
Confidence with the goods to back it up = the real deal
Low confidence with the goods to back it up = symptom of messed up Western society where "perception is reality" and looking good is valued over actually being good
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