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Best countries for very short guys?

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Postby momopi » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:07 pm

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Postby Rock » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:43 pm

momopi wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heightism


I remember reading about a study done in the States which suggested every additional inch of height for American males amounted to roughly $800 in additional annual salary on average. I would presume this relationship works within a certain bounds - say 5'6" to 6'5". Anything under is just short and over is just tall. When you get into the high 6s, you start to appear freakish in many business contexts.

However, I would speculate that extremely short or tall people stand-out as so different from the crowd that it can contribute to their image as 'the boss'. After all, there's only one real boss and he's different from everybody else. Blending too easily in the crowd can compromise your leadership image.

These days, as a white or black guy in the States, I think you need to be at least 6'2" or more to be considered fairly tall. 5'11 to 6'1 is totally average for 20-40 somethings. Stats say average male height in USA is 5'9" - 5'10". But that figure includes older people, Latins, and Asians; all of whom depress it a bit.
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Heightism in Korea?

Postby jaymcgoff » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:35 pm

Does anyone know if heightism (in the dating game) is as rampant in Korea as it is in America? I know that I am far below average height for a Korean male, and this may be a handicap, but do Korean girls make such an issue of it the way that American girls do? For financial reasons I have to teach English in Korea, at least for the first year abroad. My parents will not support me financially. TEFL jobs in Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and other major cities in mainland China also pay well, but the jobs are much harder to get than Korea simply due to supply and demand... without any teaching experience, it's a long shot for me to go anywhere other than Korea. Plus, I can only learn one Asian language at a time, as they're very difficult, and I've already started learning Korean.

If despite my best efforts I can't attract a Korean female, would it be realistic to marry a Filipina and bring her back to Korea to live with me there? Living in the Philippines is not an option for me. I don't have a lot of money saved up, and I don't want to live in poverty.
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Re: Heightism in Korea?

Postby Rock » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:17 pm

jaymcgoff wrote:Does anyone know if heightism (in the dating game) is as rampant in Korea as it is in America? I know that I am far below average height for a Korean male, and this may be a handicap, but do Korean girls make such an issue of it the way that American girls do? For financial reasons I have to teach English in Korea, at least for the first year abroad. My parents will not support me financially. TEFL jobs in Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and other major cities in mainland China also pay well, but the jobs are much harder to get than Korea simply due to supply and demand... without any teaching experience, it's a long shot for me to go anywhere other than Korea. Plus, I can only learn one Asian language at a time, as they're very difficult, and I've already started learning Korean.

If despite my best efforts I can't attract a Korean female, would it be realistic to marry a Filipina and bring her back to Korea to live with me there? Living in the Philippines is not an option for me. I don't have a lot of money saved up, and I don't want to live in poverty.


Hey Jay

Height-ism in South Korea? Don't know for sure. But I suspect height is a key factor in their assessment of you as a long-term mate. Korea is also notorious for being xenophobic. Most white foreigners I know who've spent significant time teaching in both in Korea and Taiwan tell me they get much better treatment in the latter. I firmly believe there's a substantially higher percentage of local girls willing to date an average Joe white westerner in Taiwan than South Korea. And I remember an old western hand from Korea telling me the more desirable young girls there are quite picky and have high material requirements for potential suitors. However, and this again is just IMO, Seoul has a higher percentage of hotties walking around than any other Asian capital. Taipei is a strong runner-up though.

I believe teaching work is very easy to find here if you meet some basic standards:
- Do you have a university degree (most important and required)?
- Are you young (yes)?
- Are you personable and able to bond with kids of various ages?
- Are you clean-cut and presentable (important for the parents)?
- Can you behave in an energetic, outgoing manner and show some enthusiasm for Taiwan and its culture (a bonus)?
- Can you also teach adults (more potential hours, especially privates)?

If you meet the degree requirement and most of the other standards, then finding work on the ground in country should be quite easy for you. My friend who does 5 months a year does not meet most of them yet still manages to swing plenty of hours on short notice. He pulls-in nearly US$2,000 when he's here and lives low at around US$400 per month.

A normal schedule would be 18-25 hours per week, more if you add on some privates. Starting pay should be around NT$400-700 (US$12.5 - 22) per hour. That would generate a monthly salary of US$1,000-2,400. Your living costs would eat-up about $500-800 of this as long as you don't get too carried away with the club scene. And local taxes, if you work on the books, would take around 5-7% if you put-in a full calendar year. If you are physically present in-country less than 183 days, your tax rate get bumped up to an automatic 20%. You would not be liable to the States for taxes on these levels of earned income.

Think about it.

If you still must go the Korea route but don't find your girl there, then I would imagine you could import your Filipina wife as long as you had a South Korean resident visa and work permit. You would need to first marry her overseas. I know that would be the case for Taiwan anyway. But wait a second. You won't have much time to search Phils for a wife unless you take an extended vacation from work. At your age, or any age for that matter, I wouldn't force or rush anything. If you really find your dream girl and soul mate, then its worth a try. But be patient. Perhaps you can initiate your search online once you get settled down with your new job.
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Postby gsjackson » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:14 pm

Enishi wrote:
Well, if you approached thousands of women thinking you were hot and desired after getting evidence to the contrary from, say, two or three, then you just weren't assimilating the data correctly. But I think you exaggerate, and that your confidence took a hit early on in adolescence. There's just no question that confidence and certainty sell in American culture. There is a fat fool on the radio named Rush Limbaugh who makes tens of millions of dollars every year because he dispenses his ignorance with absolute and total certainty. Americans need to be told what to think, because they don't do any for themselves.


I've been wondering if all this focus on confidence as one of the ultimate aphrodisiacs in America is something which isn't necessarily true in other countries. As a deep thinker, I personally can't stand other men who are "confident" when the words coming out of their mouths are complete and utter bs.

How much does confidence matter outside the anglo-sphere?


I believe -- or would like to think -- that at least in Europe, where the public discourse is conducted at a much higher level than in the U.S., what you say has more impact than the degree of certainty with which you say it. America is the only nation completely overtaken by the language and demeanor of salesmanship. We apparently want to be marks, otherwise we'd expect people to communicate instead of attitudinize and posture. As the PUA people are fond of pointing out, it doesn't matter at all what you say, just how you say it. I think, at least for now, that applies only to the U.S.
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Height and Inner Game

Postby jaymcgoff » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 pm

Some people have responded to my post suggesting that I focus on attracting very short girls and go to countries with a low average height. I believe this is actually counterproductive, as well as poisonous to my inner game. First, I shouldn't limit myself just because of my genetic misfortune. Second, a very short girl is more likely to have an issue with her own height and thus make her man's height the most important factor. Third, and most importantly, I'm far more attracted to tall girls (tall from my perspective is 5'3" to 5'5"). Above 5'5" would be too extreme. I would really like for my future son to have a better chance in life and this is not going to happen if I marry a woman my height or shorter.

I haven't been anywhere in Asia so I can't say this from real life experience, but from what I've seen in pictures and movies, Korean/Japanese girls are the most attractive Asians... fairer skin, taller, and curvier. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.

The whole idea behind leaving America is expanding my dating prospects so I can select from the best and not have to settle for the scraps. If I go to China/Taiwan or Southeast Asia to pick up girls, but I actually think Koreans/Japanese are more attractive, that would be settling. I stand by my plan to go to Korea.
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Postby momopi » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:36 pm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 54,00.html

High Hopes
By HANNAH BEECH Shanghai Monday, Dec. 17, 2001

Xiaowei had mastered those tricky English irregular verbs, perfected a convincing American drawl and could rattle off the 10 biggest U.S. cities by heart. So when the wannabe diplomat applied to a top Beijing foreign languages university, she couldn't believe it when a rejection letter followed. The reason? At a petite 1.53 m, Xiaowei was told she wasn't tall enough to qualify for the English department. "They told me that Chinese diplomats have to be tall," says Xiaowei, "because foreigners are tall and we don't want to look too short next to them."

Still determined, Xiaowei visited a Shanghai surgeon who promised the seemingly impossible: to add 7 cm to her height. The leg surgery would be simple, he said, if brutal. He would saw her shin bones, affix metal braces with 16 steel needles to her legs, then slowly stretch the newly forming bone tissue into a longer pair of gams. A steep $11,000 later, Xiaowei found herself in a spartan Shanghai hospital room surveying her scarred but elongated legs. Four months in the dingy ward have left her stir-crazy, but Xiaowei shows off limbs already stretched 4 cm. "I can take the pain, if it means I can become a diplomat," she says, wincing as she shifts her metal-embraced legs. "But I never thought I would have to resort to surgery."

Thousands of young Chinese women and a few men are taking advantage of a surgical procedure originally developed in Russia to help patients with legs disfigured by accidents or birth defects, such as dwarfism. While Western hospitals tend to perform the difficult surgery only for medical reasons, the number of Chinese hospitals offering the profitable procedure for cosmetic purposes has mushroomed. Many clinics have year-long waiting lists. The surgery's popularity is abetted by requirements that exclude short citizens from dozens of fields, from flight attendants to government translators. In a country that has hundreds of qualified applicants for every job, height minimums are one way to whittle down the competition. "You don't have to be tall to be good at computers," says Ma Xiang, a recruiter for a consortium of online companies in Beijing, which requires that female applicants be at least 1.6 m tall (the average height of Chinese women). "But it's one of the ways we can limit the number of rEsumEs we get."

Dr. Xia Hetong, a surgeon at Beijing's No. 402 Hospital, is a pioneer of limb-extension surgery for patients disfigured by birth defects or injury. Since he started offering cosmetic leg-lengthening a few years ago, he has performed more than 600 operations. His patients have grown by an average of 9 cm. More than 70% of the women are college educated. Some who have studied overseas felt inferior because of their lack of stature. "For them, the main purpose of the operation is not to improve their physical health," says Xia. "It is to help their psychological growth."

But the surgery doesn't always ensure mental well-being. Zhang Wen found she was 4 cm shy of the 1.6-m height requirement for Air China stewardesses. Last year, a surgeon in the central city of Chongqing promised to solve her dilemma for $3,000. After four months' hospitalization and nearly a year of rehab, one of Zhang's legs is 3 cm shorter than the other, causing her to limp. Having spent her savings on the botched operation, Zhang can't afford more surgery. Such malpractice is common in China's booming south, where fly-by-night surgeons take advantage of lax hospital rules. Many patients have ended up with damaged nerves, severe infections, dangerously brittle bones or mismatched legs. "This is not an easy surgery like a nose job," says a doctor at the International Center for Limb Lengthening in Baltimore, Maryland. "You can't just operate on every short person who walks in the door."

When Xiaohong, a 1.52-m law student from Gansu province, decided to submit to the knife, she knew securing a reputable surgeon like Xia would mean fees more than double her entire college tuition. Her father, the only family member who knows about the $12,000 surgery, agreed that it would be an investment in Xiaohong's future. "First impressions are what matters," says Xiaohong, perched on her hospital cot. "People in China will always pick the taller woman, even if the shorter person is more talented." When Xiaohong finishes the six-month exercise and rehab program in Beijing, she knows she will have to tell her mother about the extravagant expense. After all, you can't hide an 8-cm growth spurt. But Xiaohong's not worried. "When I am tall, I will be able to face many obstacles," she says�even the wrath of a parsimonious mother.


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0w9B9fIXE
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Postby Jackal » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:04 pm

Try India, specifically southern India.
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Re: Height and Inner Game

Postby Rock » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:27 am

jaymcgoff wrote:Some people have responded to my post suggesting that I focus on attracting very short girls and go to countries with a low average height. I believe this is actually counterproductive, as well as poisonous to my inner game. First, I shouldn't limit myself just because of my genetic misfortune. Second, a very short girl is more likely to have an issue with her own height and thus make her man's height the most important factor. Third, and most importantly, I'm far more attracted to tall girls (tall from my perspective is 5'3" to 5'5"). Above 5'5" would be too extreme. I would really like for my future son to have a better chance in life and this is not going to happen if I marry a woman my height or shorter.

I haven't been anywhere in Asia so I can't say this from real life experience, but from what I've seen in pictures and movies, Korean/Japanese girls are the most attractive Asians... fairer skin, taller, and curvier. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.

The whole idea behind leaving America is expanding my dating prospects so I can select from the best and not have to settle for the scraps. If I go to China/Taiwan or Southeast Asia to pick up girls, but I actually think Koreans/Japanese are more attractive, that would be settling. I stand by my plan to go to Korea.


OK, why didn't you say that before? You're taste very similar to mine. I've normally pursued very curvy to thick girls who stand 5'6 - 5'10â€￾. And there are plenty of them both in Seoul and Taipei.

As a side note, a short girl will probably not have and issues with her own height if the average height in her environment is very low. But if she lives in a taller country, she probably will have.

Anyway, back to your specs. The height range you mentioned (160-165 cm) is met by the majority of young girls in Seoul, Taipei, parts of Shanghai and Beijing, Shenyang, Changchun, Harbin, Qingdao, various other northern Chinese 2nd tier cities. To slightly lesser extent, it’s also met in Tokyo, Osaka, various other Japanese cities, Singapore, Hong Kong, parts of Bangkok, Chengdu / Chongqing in west China, Mongolia (Ulaanbaatar), and Taiwan ex-Taipei. Shenzhen area has migrants from all over China so you can find taller gals there too.

Fair skin is most prevalent in urban areas of Korea, Japan, and northern China. It still very much the norm (80-90%) in Taiwan, the rest of urban China, Hong Kong, Mongolia (though they often have rosy red cheeks), and the within the ethnic Chinese populations of Singapore and Bangkok.

Curvy is more of a challenge in Asia. Wider hips, rounded ass, thicker thighs type combo can be found, with some hunting, in Seoul and Taipei and to a lesser extent in Hong Kong, Bangkok, and Singapore. Girls in mainland China tend to have flat asses even if they look promising at first glance. But these days, the exceptions to this are increasing, at least in the 1st and 2nd tier cities. Now fairly big breasted girls can be found easily almost everywhere in urban Asia. So if that’s what you mean by curvy, then it’s less of a challenge.

Interpretation of facial beauty is subjective. According to my taste, females with uber facial beauty tend to gravitate towards the most moneyed areas. For example, you can find many 9s and 10s in Seoul, Taipei, Shanghai, and Tokyo and 6-8s are all over the place. Classy parts of Bangkok are impressive too. The ancestral origin of the stand-outs, IMO, tends to be Korea, northern China, and Mongolia. But very cute girls can be easily found from all areas mentioned above.

One specific point about Korea. Cosmetic surgery is extremely popular there and a substantial percentage of young and not so young girls there have had one or more facial procedures. Not all of them are natural beauties. One issue I see with many Koreans (guys and girls) is over developed jaw bones and/or masseter muscles which gives them a very square face, not attractive.

And finally, keep in mind that even countries with a very low average height have some tall girls. Just look at Winston’s Filipina girlfriend. She stands around 5’6â€￾ or 5’7â€￾. So if you do not succeed in East Asia, you can aim for an abnormally tall and hopefully beautiful Filipina.

BTW, are you attracted to any of the Chinese girls in this thread?

http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=8372


What about some of these Mongolians?

http://www.asian-sirens.com/blog/commen ... _0_1_0_C11

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiver ... 35877.html
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Postby Rock » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:42 am

momopi wrote:http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,187654,00.html

the wrath of a parsimonious mother.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0w9B9fIXE


The complication rate for this type of surgery is extremely high in China. If one must get limb lengthening surgery, the safest bet is to shell out 40K+ Euro and have it done with a doctor in France (Dr. Guichet) who uses a much safer internal rod system. Up to 4 inches of additional height (2 in lower leg and 2 in upper) is possible. But it is still a very risky surgery, just much safer than the external methods used in China and many other countries. Lots of LL patients end-up partially crippled.
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No height surgery for me

Postby jaymcgoff » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:35 pm

I've known about the height surgery option for several years now. I would never seriously consider it, and this is why: while I have a major disadvantage in the dating game, it's not a complete and total disqualifier 100 percent of the time. Even as short as I am I have gone on dates with several attractive American women. I lost those opportunities for relationships not because of my height but because of my inner game problems. It's a fact that a girl who has a "policy" of not dating a short man may still give him a shot if the he shows high value in other ways, such being very stylish, muscular to make her feel safe/protected and having a great personality to give her the range of emotions she desires. It's a gigantic challenge for me but I believe I can overcome this. I refuse to set the bar low for myself and either settle for the scraps or resort to pay4play my entire life. I admit I sometimes get caught up in an emotional state of negativity and victimhood, but I recognize that neither of these are helpful and they are actually even more repulse to the opposite sex than my short stature. When I get into that state, my friend reminds me that I could have it much, much worse than I do. I'm lucky to have friends to remind me about the importance of personal responsibility and to guide me to better options abroad where I can try to level the playing field. There are thousands of frustrated men in America who settled and are already tied down; they may be tall but they don't have the freedom I do.

What would be a complete and total disqualifier in the dating game 100 percent of the time is if I were a crippled or limping victim of a botched limb-lengthening surgery. There is a very high rate of complications and I could end up far less attractive than I am now. If I were an amputee, had mismatched leg sizes, or walked with a limp it would actually be impossible to attract any woman whatsoever. Even if it worked flawlessly, I question whether its worth it: after one year of pain and doing nothing productive in my life I could gain 4 inches. I still wouldn't be tall enough to attract women easily without effort; that only happens for guys in the 5'11" to 6'3" range, which I'd still be nowhere near. I would also look disproportionate with longer upper legs than lower legs; this would make swimming or going to the beach more embarrassing. All of the time and effort would be more wisely spent working on other ways of increasing my attractiveness. On the other hand, someone who cannot succeed in their chosen career due to height restrictions would be totally justified in taking the risks of this surgery and the disproportionate appearance.
Last edited by jaymcgoff on Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Chinese and Mongolian girls

Postby jaymcgoff » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:57 pm

I looked at the pictures of Chinese and Mongolian girls. They're hot, no doubt about it. They have the hourglass figure (ideal waist to hip ratio), which is what I consider "curvy." I really like the fair skin tone and long legs. I don't understand the obsession in Western cultures with being tan and having ridiculous oversized fake breasts. I'd definitely take small but firm and natural over fake, gigantic or saggy. Somewhere in between would be ideal.

BTW, I'm agnostic now; no longer Orthodox. Going to Asia wouldn't even be an option at all if I held onto those beliefs. Being Orthodox is really like living in a bubble. Not only is it complete mind control, the community has rampant corruption and the most respected "holy" ones are hypocrites.
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Postby dano » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:14 pm

I don't think that height is all that important. I've dated women ranging from 5' to 6'1'' in height and they all drove me insane. Why don't you just find someone thats good looking and easy to get along with?
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Society and Height

Postby jaymcgoff » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:19 pm

Dano- Unfortunately the reality is that in our society height is very important. Taller men are more respected, have better dating prospects, better job opportunities, get paid more, etc. Childhood is especially painful for short boys, as they are almost always excluded from team sports by their peers, and have to endure daily verbal abuse such as "midget," "shrimp," which is all fully tolerated and encouraged by school administration because in our messed up society its all about "survival of the fittest." This kind of childhood has an often permanent negative effect on the boy's self-image/self-esteem that he will likely struggle with for his entire life. Since I want my future son to be taller than me and have a better chance in life, I need to marry a tall woman (from my perspective tall is 5'3" to 5'5").
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Postby momopi » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:08 pm

Note: this study is done on dating web site "meat market". It's questionable as to how much it'd apply to society overall since most people don't use dating sites. But you can use the data for example or reference.

=================================================

http://www.asian-nation.org/docs/online ... -study.pdf

Attribute Trade-Offs

In order to obtain a better understanding of the relative magnitude of the attribute preferences
we consider the implied trade-offs between different traits. We focus on the trade-offs
between income and several other attributes.

First, we look at the trade-off between looks and income. Consider a woman evaluating
the profile of a man whose looks rating is in the nth decile (n < 10) of all looks scores among
men. We would like to know the amount of additional income this man would need to be
as “successfulâ€￾ with the woman as another man whose looks rating is in the top decile. To
that end, we calculate the income variation such that the woman’s utility index for either
man is equal. Remember that the utility index allows for preference heterogeneity through
attribute distance terms, and hence we also need to specify the income of the woman and
the “baseline manâ€￾ in the top looks decile. We assume (here and below) that the woman
has an annual income of $42,500 and that the man has an annual income of $62,500. These
are the median income levels for men and women among the dating site users in our data.

Table 5.4 shows the income tradeoffs for all looks deciles. A man in the bottom decile,
for example, needs an additional income of $186,000 (a total annual income of $248,500)
to compensate for his poor looks. The table also shows that women cannot make up for
their looks at all. The reason is that our preference estimates indicate that men’s marginal
utility from income is approximately flat between income levels of $100,000 and $200,000
and declining for income levels higher than $200,000. Hence, even for a woman in the 9th
decile of looks there is no amount of additional income that could make her as attractive
in a man’s eyes as a woman in the top decile. Of course, these results should not be taken
fully literally—functional form assumptions, distributional assumptions, and sampling error
will generally influence the precise income compensation numbers. Hence, for example, our
model will not be able to accurately predict how a man evaluates a woman with an annual
income of $2 million. However, the results strongly indicate two basic messages: preferences
for looks are quantitatively important, and there are strong gender differences in the relative
preference of looks versus income.

Table 5.5 shows the trade-offs between height and income. A man who is 5 feet 6
inches tall, for example, needs an additional $175,000 to be as desirable as a man who is
approximately 6 feet tall (the median height in our sample) and who makes $62,500 per
year.


Maybe the most striking numbers are with regard to income-ethnicity trade-offs, as
shown in Table 5.6. For equal success with a white woman, an African-American man needs
to earn $154,000 more than a white man. Hispanic men need an additional $77,000, and
Asian men need an additional $247,000 in annual income. In contrast to men, women mostly
cannot compensate for their ethnicity with a higher income.
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