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Marriage and Children - Reasons and Consequences to Consider

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Postby ringspun » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:The influence of religion in peoples' lives contributes to this perceived obligation to "be fruitful and multiply." Most of the time, pro-marriage people don't even make that connection. They just do what other do or expect.

If you have managed to reject that mandate for marriage and children, you are endowed with courage and skills of discernment.


I did it once, broke free and never again! even to a beautiful Russian girl, I don't believe anything lasts forever and why risk losing your fortune over a piece of paper?
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:50 am

Winston wrote:Check out these great responses I received to this essay:


Excellent essay! And I have to say thanks because I get nagged by the women at work all the time about how I have to have kids and how I should get married. It's so friggin annoying! Your essay is spot on. I really have no desire to have kids, and I especially cringe at the thought of giving up 20 of the best years of my life for no good reason.

On top of that, as you mentioned, marriage is just a piece of paper. One thing you didn't get into too much in your essay.......I can't tell you how many people I know cheat on their spouses or have told me stories about tons of people they know that do this. Imagine honoring your end of the bargain, being faithful to your spouse for years, going out of your way for her and passing up on lots of opportunities to be with other women because you want to "do the right thing" and then one day years into it when you are tied down with kids, a mortgage, and god knows what else, you find out she's cheating on you. Man, that's even worse! I can tell you for a fact that I know so many people who don't value their marriage contract at all -- they even take their rings off before they go to work or go out. It's really f***ed up! So to me, that's yet another reason not to get married and have kids. This way you don't have to tie yourself down like that and you also don't have to feel bad about the possibility of having sex with someone else.



I said it before, I know an older guy who a while back was a serious womanizer. He told me most of his lays were with MARRIED women and that quite a few times he found out AFTER the fact because the women played the role that they were single.
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:56 am

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:The influence of religion in peoples' lives contributes to this perceived obligation to "be fruitful and multiply." Most of the time, pro-marriage people don't even make that connection. They just do what other do or expect.

If you have managed to reject that mandate for marriage and children, you are endowed with courage and skills of discernment.



Just to add to your post,

Taken from the book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration:


"Another important feature of the control of excellence of child life among the primitive races has been the systematic spacing of children by control of pregnancies. The interval between children ranged from two and a half to four years. For most of the tribes in Africa this was accomplished by the plural-wife system. The wife with the youngest child was protected.

The original Maori culture of New Zealand accomplished the same end by birth control and definite planning. In one of the Fiji Island tribes the minimum spacing was four years.

These practices are in strong contrast with either the haphazard, entirely unorganized programs of individuals in much of our modern civilization, or the organized over-crowding of pregnancies also current."
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Postby Truthville » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:30 am

Hmmmm...........

Isn't the REAL question, "WHAT HAPPENED TO MARRIAGE IN WESTERN COUNTRIES?"

I find it odd that people have to write long essays defending something that is, at heart, a personal choice.

IMHO, some people want a real "connection" to another person beyond the shallowness of endless physical gratification. I often think that some people, when they have sex with their "multitudes" of "hot" women, ARE really just making love to the true object of their "lust," themselves!

The same goes for woman and their "bad boys!"

Narcissism is one by-product of a consumer driven society IMHO! People are just more "things" and "objects" created or present for our ego-driven, moment-to-moment childlike pleasure-filled existences!

BUT of course, we think of ourselves as "people!" It's everybody else whom are the "objects!" UNTIL, of course, we are treated as such by others, and THEN the whining, the crying, the bitching and the anger start!

Sad, isn't it?
"What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: "I am a wretchedly longstanding victim;therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition."

"It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised."
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Postby woodwater » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:02 am

Let's start the demolition process.


Winston wrote:

"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
- Oscar Wilde

Oscar Wilde is definately a true Aquarius. However the basic irrationally of this is that there are presently 6 billion people in the world, so that anything you might think or feel is probably being felt or thought by several thousand people at best. So it would better to say all people.


Winston wrote:

Hello. I want you to think for a moment about why you want marriage and children and why you think it's important. Meditate on it for a while, and you will realize that you don't really know why. And neither do most people. If you ask most people, they will simply say "because it's an important part of life" but they cannot explain WHY. This is because they were not taught to think about it. They merely assumed that if everyone else believed that, then it must be so.

Is it? I very much doubt that I will ever get married and have children; and none of this by choice. Nobody I have ever fallen in love with has ever loved me back in anything but the most unstable fashion.

The only reason I wish to get married is that it is a natural desire of sorts that has ALWAYS been thwarted by fate, without any real opportunity to fail or suceed ever arising. So in a manner of speaking, that I have actually managed to aquire a lovely woman that also loves me is itself a motivating factor.

To throw away such a scarce resource as a genuine and stable mutual love would be serious folly of the worse sort. Like spending your life working on some priceless treasure and then throwing it away.


Winston wrote:

This is similar to how most Christians cannot explain why they think the Bible is true or is the word of God. They simply assume that because others in their family and Christian subculture believe it and told them so, that it therefore must be true. They do not analyze it, question it, or think critically about it. But as the legendary great philosopher Socrates said, "An unexamined life is not worth living." So let's do that and examine this issue.

I think it helps first to ask yourself why you want marriage and children. There are good and bad reasons for wanting them. Here are examples of both, with comments below each:


So Winston believes that Socrates is to be taken seriously and is a great philosopher and not Thomas Gray, who wrote "Ignorance is Bliss" in his poem Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College.

The only reason that Winston thinks that could well be that the philosophical subculture regards Socrates of importance. He simply considers himself to be part of said subculture and not that of the Christians for whatever reason.


Winston wrote:

Bad reasons for wanting marriage and children


Winston wrote:

- "Because I need to follow tradition and am under social/family pressure to get married."

Let me give you a slap in the face on this one. Look, just because something is a tradition, doesn't mean it has to be followed. In the ancient Aztec Empire, it was a tradition to sacrifice people to the Gods by slaying them on the altar. Does that mean that it's a good thing? Would you do that too if you were an Aztec? Stop being a mindless automaton.

And if you were decide to start advocating sacrificing people to the Aztec Gods in modern Mexico then "Social/Family" pressure would certainly work against you.


Winston wrote:

Moreover, if all you did was follow tradition, how would you be any different than the animals, who also follow the "traditions" programmed in their DNA to eat, survive and reproduce? How would your life be anything special? You'd just be another mindless robot following tradition, with no ambition, aspiration, higher purpose or passion. No great person in history is ever remembered for just following a tradition. What a wasted life. To do something just because it's a "tradition" is to be a programmed automaton, not a thinking human being who acts on logic, reason and rationality.

Finally, just because family and friends are pressuring you into doing something, doesn't make it right or good or the best thing for you. They are merely following their programming and traditions too, rather than acting out of reason or rationality.

And many, indeed most great people in history have got married and had children. Were they just following "tradition".

Why do we even want to be so different from the animals? Animals aren't mindless robots and neither are the majority of the human race. The kind of immortality these "great men" enjoy lives only as long as their memory endures. And these endure only as long as the greater immortality of the human race endures, an immortality that is rooted in them continually getting married and having children.


Winston wrote:

- "Because they are an important part of life."

Not necessarily. You don't need marriage and children in the same sense that you need food and water. They are choices, not necessities. You only think they are important because everyone else thinks so, and because society makes them sound important. But the truth is, they are only important if you MAKE them important. And if, after reading this whole essay, you still decide that they are important to you and your goals, then that is up to you. No one can decide that except you. But make sure that you make an informed choice, for the right reasons and not the wrong ones, which this essay will get into.

The reality is that everyone is different. But the fallacy of society is that it assumes that everyone is the same in wanting and needing marriage and children. That just isn't so. Some people have no need for such binding commitments and obligations, and others are just simply not cut out for them. For them, marriage and children would be a hindrance and interference with their priorities, plans and values.

If you truly are not cut out to be married and have children then do something for society instead that will be of indirect benefit to other people's children. There is indeed no benefit in people who are not suited to have children breeding children and trying to raise them.

However the importance of children is an objective fact, it is not something that is dependant upon whether a certain individual happens to consider them important.


Winston wrote:

- "Because it is a duty to get married and have kids. My parents expect it and society expects it. Even if I don't love my spouse, I will still get married as long as he/she seems like a good prospect. Our love can grow after that."

It is not a duty to get married, only an expectation. You are brainwashed into thinking it is your duty. In fact, there is no such thing as a "duty". The concept of a "duty" is merely a psychological coercion technique designed to make you feel obligated into doing something without regard for your free will. There is no logical or rational reason why you "must" get married and have kids. If you always try to conform to everyone's expectations, you will never find peace, happiness or freedom.

Again, just because family and friends are pressuring you into doing something, doesn't make it right or good or the best thing for you. They are merely following their programming and traditions too, not acting out of logic or reason.

Moreover, even after you get married and have kids, the expectations from family/friends won't stop. You will be then expected to work hard, earn money, raise your children to be obedient slaves and get good grades, show off your success with a nice house and nice car to "keep up with the Jones", etc. etc. The pressure will never stop.

You will never find peace or rest if you keep trying to live up to other people's expectations. By doing so, you will be giving away your power, control and freedom to others. In the end, you will be nothing but a washed up slave who never "lived true to yourself".


There we get to the basic problem with your entire worldview. Duty is the very basis of any and all social order. A society where people do not feel obligated to do anything is a society that is headed for utter and total ruin.

If you have no duties it basically only means you are worthless, that you have achieved nothing of value to anything, created nothing of value and do nothing of value. But still you only live your parasitic leech-like existance because other people are carrying out their duties for you.

You can speak of duty as coercion removing "freedom" but people with no concept of duty are only anything but parasites if they are coerced into doing what they must either by threat of starvation or fear of force. So basically speaking, those who will not freely perform their duties MUST be coerced to do so by some mechanism, to give such people freedom is folly.


Winston wrote:

- "Because I want to have children and need a husband to be a provider for them."

So you want to enslave someone you don't love, just for your own self-interest? What about his needs?


The needs of your children is a warped definition of self-interest.


Winston wrote:

- "Because I don't want to be lonely and grow old alone."

Geez. Isn't that a selfish reason to bring kids into this world of enslavement and suffering, just for your own benefit? By doing so, you are dragging innocent souls into this world, to become enslaved by the economic system - raised and groomed like a product on a shelf so they can become productive obedient slaves in a world of suffering and greed. Isn't that sort of cruel in a way? Think about it.


I see someone's drank deep from the poison well of Buddhism.......

Everything is not greed, slavery and suffering.....


Winston wrote:

If you are lonely, then get out there and do what you love and go somewhere you love, and you will meet many great wonderful people who can be your friends or lovers. There are many quality people with enriched lives with lots to share all over the world! Among them are many fish available to be your girlfriend/boyfriend or romantic lover. You can find a soulmate, and establish a deep monogamous relationship with him/her. If you last long, you might even get to grow old together. But understand this: You don't need to get married. There is no reason to seek state involvement and approval for your relationship (aka a marriage license). That just gives the government another reason to control you. The less control from them, the better. I'm sure you know that. In reality, marriage is not necessary for two people to cohabitate or be together. It's just a piece of paper and does not create love. Marriage is not about love - it's about duty and obligation, which often puts a damper on love. You only "think" marriage is necessary because you were brainwashed/programmed to. When you analyze it rationally, this becomes apparent.


Indeed marraige is not strictly about love, it's essentially just a ritual mechanism that acts as sort status-symbol to remind the couple and everyone else that you have something that is more tangible and stable than whatever subjective feelings you might happen to share at the moment.

It is useful because love is a bad basis for anything because love is an emotion and emotions are unstable. So by getting married one ensures that if one should happen to not love your partner (or perhaps that's fall in love with some other person!) at the moment you have something stable left to rebuild from.


Winston wrote:

However, you can get married and grow old with your spouse without having children too - that's another option. And if you need someone to take care of you when you get old, you can always hire a caretaker. It'd be much cheaper than raising kids, that's for sure. Also, there are always other old people to keep old people company. At Denny's and in public parks, for instance, there are many old timers who are lonely and glad to talk to strangers.

Another thing to consider is that the money you spend to raise children from birth to adulthood, could be better spent invested into your own business, real estate properties, savings, or mutual fund portfolio. That will, you can achieve financial independence without the burden of children draining away all your resources. Then you will be more able to travel the world, and meet all the wonderful great people across the globe who can become your friends, teachers and lover(s). This makes more sense, but of course, you are not programmed to think this way.

Or to put it another way, not having children allows you to better become a capitalist and so exploit other people rather than being exploited as part of the productive activity of raising children. Choose your side, master or slave?


Winston wrote:

On the other hand, if you succumb to tradition and family pressure, and give up your life, freedom and resources just to raise some "spoiled little brats" so they can grow up and say "thank you mom and dad" before they ride off into the horizon to start their own life, you will have wasted your life, and will be left as a washed up slave with your best years behind you.

Finally, ponder this: If every generation lived only to prepare the way for the next generation, and never lived for themselves or for the present moment, then what's the point of life? If you live only for your children, who then grow up and live only for their children, and so forth, then life would be just a neverending sequence where everyone "passed the baton" without end. Any purpose for existence would be defeated. See how silly and pointless that would be?


I am really quite clueless here as to how to respond. To look up the most beautiful thing in all creation, that is the concept of the eternal or infinite repetitive cycle and then spit in the face of it all. Admittadly in reality even species go extinct eventually, but some can exist basically unchanged for millions of years and it's the concept we are talking about.

Life is not a word, it does not need a meaning. Life is not a tool or a function, it does not need a purpose. Life is not an argument or a weapon, it does not need a point.


Winston wrote:

The Facts and Consequences of Having Children

Here are the facts and consequences of having children that you need to know before you have them. You need to look at the reality here, rather than the myths, expectations or traditions you were fed about children being "wonderful blessings that you will make your life complete". The media brainwashes people by depicting the notion that "getting pregnant = good news". But it is not always good news, when you consider the reality of the following:

- Children are detrimental to your health and peace of mind, which are the most important things in life. They give you lots of constant worry and stress, which is bad for your health. And as we all know, health is priceless and the most important thing in life. Peace of mind is the next most important thing in life. But children are not good for either one.

- Children disturb your peace and quiet, as well as sleep. If you like peace and quiet, then children will become your worst nightmare. They will bring constant noise, disturbance, tension, problems and conflict, especially if you have two or three of them fighting and arguing. If you like having a good night's sleep, you might want to consider that you will be awoken and disturbed many times by your baby crying in the middle of the night. These are just words, but once you experience this, you will realize the gravity of it all. It is more than you can imagine or conceptualize, and more than words can describe.

- Children take away your freedom, enslave you, and tie you down. They destroy and impair your personal freedom for 20+ years. You will be obligated to give up your life and freedom to become enslaved in servitude to the needs of a "spoiled brat". And if you hate or regret it, then tough luck, because once you start, there is no quitting or turning back. Thus, it could turn out to be the worst thing that's ever happened to you! As a parent, you will be "tied down" while you work hard everyday to provide money for a good home for them. Your life will no longer be your own, but indebted into servitude for their welfare. It is also hard and unpleasant to travel when you have kids, whether you bring them along or not. (Think of the Chevy Chase "Vacation" movies where family trips are anything but fun) So if you really love to travel, you might want to consider that.

- Children are a big drain on your resources - in terms of finances, time, energy and emotions. You will not be reimbursed or reap any tangible rewards or benefits from your sacrifice - except for intangible emotional ones. So from a business standpoint, having children is the worst business decision you could ever make, as the relationship is a completely one-sided affair, with them receiving all the benefits while you get sucked up dry. The money you spend raising them from birth to adulthood, would be better spent investing in a business, real estate properties, savings, or mutual fund portfolios so that you can be free to travel the world and live to your heart's desire.

Overall, having children is NOT a logical decision - it involves huge sacrifices in time, money, energy, life, freedom, etc. for little or no return. No one would do that rationally. The only reasons they do are:

Overall, having children is NOT a logical decision - it involves huge sacrifices in time, money, energy, life, freedom, etc. for little or no return. No one would do that rationally. The only reasons they do are:

1. Out of the biological instinct to reproduce.
2. Cultural or social programming.
3. Pressure from family and friends.
4. Out of a natural love for children.
5. Out of a desire to continue one's lineage.
6. To have an inheritor for one's assets or business/corporation.
7. By accident during sex.
8. To have someone care for them during old age.



Wait one minute. What you are basically saying is what anyone could say about anything hard or difficult. It's always easier not to something that requires sustained effort and sacrifice but most things of value require effort and sacrifice to create. The world is run by people who understand that, the media whatevers did not get where they are because they were lazy.

And some of these people have children of their own remember?


Winston wrote:

Let's look at these reasons: #1 is natural and understandable. However, humans have intelligence and the ability to reason. They can choose to follow their instincts or choose not to. That's what differentiates us from animals. Also, you can have sex without having children if you use proper birth control. Not everyone wants kids or is cut out for them. As to #2 and #3, well they are pure brainwashing - nothing else needs to be said there. #4 is a legit reason to have kids. But you have to really love them, A LOT! Enough to sacrifice selflessly for them.


How can know how much you would love children you do not have?


Winston wrote:

Also, it's one thing to think that you love kids and are willing to sacrifice for them, but it's another to actually do it. Some actually regret it later when they are overwhelmed by the burden and disruptions to their life, but by then, it's too late. That's why this is something that could turn out to be the biggest mistake of your life. You gotta understand that thinking and doing something are completely different. For example, many veterans before going to war thought it was an honor to "serve their country" and were willing to die for it. But once there, they realized it was a mistake and not what they thought it was, and many paid a huge price for it. It was the most costly mistake of their lives. As they say, "having and wanting are two different things".


If everyone errs on the side of caution like this then we are all in trouble.


Winston wrote:

However, the problem with this is that you can't be sure what your child will turn out like. Not every child is cute, intelligent and well-behaved. Some are monsters who are out of control and disruptive, and do not respond to disciplinary measures. Others have mental or functional disorders. Not all children are the same. Like adults, they are individuals. You do not know what you will get. It's a risk you take, with permanent consequences, which may not turn out the way you want.


I have often thought that. Basically speaking parents actually have very little power to determine actually what kind of person they bring into the world. But who gave them that right anyway? Who do they think they are to dictate what another person will be like?

Yes you might suffer as a result of an evil child, but you might also suffer as a result of a evil co-worker or neighbor. It's not a good reason to hide under a rock like a coward.


Winston wrote:

Finally, in addition to all the above, consider that by bringing children into this world, you are dragging innocent souls into a world of enslavement and suffering. Once born, everyone is a slave to the economic system for their survival and basic needs. They are groomed and molded by the state to become obedient productive citizens and treated as economic resources. Remember, this is a world where greed, conflict and suffering is everywhere, where evil thrives and prospers, power corrupts and "might is right". That's not exactly an ideal world to bring new souls into now, is it? You might want to consider this aspect, especially if you aren't in a position to provide kids with a good nurturing life, or are not a stable secure "settle down and plant roots" type of person.

We've read this all before. Ultimately this world did not come into existance that way, we *made* it that way. And we can unmake it also or perhaps simply rain death and destruction down upon the guilty without actually managing to make things better in the long run (as often happens in history). But the great thing about eternal recurrance, is that you have an eternity to set things right.

What matters is the attitudes you put forward are fundamentally selfish, greedy, anti-social, prideful and basically are a crucial element as to WHY the world is not a place that you might want children to be born into. It is senseless to argue from such a fundamentally selfish basis and then turn around to refer to the consequences of that basis put into practice as an argument.
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Postby Sam Reeves » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:41 am

I have to say Winston, that you make a strong case.

I agree with you that people should learn to think for themselves, and not just marry because it's something everyone does. It's almost always the same, around their thirties men just kind of think they should be married.

I once worked out the actual cost of marriage for a man over a twenty year period, assuming one child and the usual expenses. Of course it would differ depending on country, city and so on. But one thing that doesn't differ is the fact that (unless you marry a rich female), the man always financially loses 'HUGE'!

In fact, if marriage were a business deal, you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole! It would be insane.

Still, on the other hand there are many men who do want to marry, but the actual result of the marriage isn't always what they expect. I've found many, many women kind of 'behave themselves' before marriage, so the guy thinks that's what he will get for the rest of his marriage (if he marries her).

But afterwards, and not long after, she then lets it all hang-out! The deal is done; add children to the equation, and he isn't going anywhere, for the most part. They (the women) picked him because they knew it would be unlikely he was going anywhere after the kids were born. No guy wants to be 'that guy', that leaves his kids through divorce, or at least, not many.

I do think you missed one point though Winston, although kids can be annoying beyond belief, you do still love them with a depth you will possibly never experience towards anyone else. I don't believe that's a reason to have to suffer a nagging and annoying wife mind you. :D
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Postby Winston » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:28 am

woodwater,
Can you please enclose quote brackets between my text that you're quoting above? Otherwise, people can't see which part is your writing and which part is mine. Geez. Please edit your post and put the quote brackets between my text that you're quoting, like this:

Code: Select all
[quote]my text that you're quoting[/quote]


I would do it myself, but your post is very long and it would take too long for me to edit it that way.
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Postby Winston » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:35 am

Sam Reeves wrote:I do think you missed one point though Winston, although kids can be annoying beyond belief, you do still love them with a depth you will possibly never experience towards anyone else. I don't believe that's a reason to have to suffer a nagging and annoying wife mind you. :D


I disagree. I didn't miss that because not everyone loves kids that much. Only some do. I don't think the love for children could ever compete with romantic love for me. Romantic love has fulfilled me and brought me many highs and lows, in a way that made me feel alive, which children never could. No way. There's no comparison. That feeling you get when you are romantic with someone you thought was unattainable or you had a crush on for a long time, is priceless and can't be compared with anything. Parental love for children does not compare to that at all. Loving children doesn't fulfill your passion for beautiful women, sex, romance, etc. Loving children feels more like an obligation or responsibility. It's not something passionate or fulfilling.

That's my take on it. Everyone is different. Maybe some are hardwired differently than others. Or certain genes that trigger "parental love" and "the will to self-sacrifice" are inactive in some people.

Moreover, when you are a parent, you feel like your role is that of a "servant" who lives and works for someone else and their needs. I don't like that concept. It goes against my priorities, values and instincts. It's not attractive, interesting, or cool. It makes you feel like a responsible adult who is all about enforcing rules for children, rather than being wild and free. It's like you are a guardian in a prison that controls children and takes away their freedom, and in that sense, you are in the role of one who "restricts freedom, rather than brings it." See what I mean? It's not attractive and it's not cool.
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It is

Postby ErikHeaven » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:34 pm

One of those inconvenient truths that hurt or either piss off many people. Yes Winston i agree with everything you say here. My own 22 year old son has been a great source of frustration, and i have not spoken with him in over 6 months. There are no guarantees that they will grow up right and be responsible and want to take care of themselves even when you provide a decent example for them to follow. I stayed in his life the whole time i stayed on him about going to bed early and being prepared for the next day and going to college.
He grew up with this party party party mentality and skirt chasing mentality and live off of mommy mentality.
I really do not want to go through with this nonsense again. Having a child is like playing Russian Roulette you never know what you are going to get and it is quite scary. Not only that i do not trust him with material possessions and i will not go into that. I am not having anymore and i am going to get fixed really soon so that never happens again. Now for the marriage bit well people change and sometimes radically sometimes damn near overnight.
I had an ex that started getting really irresponsible and we were together for just 2 years. So yes i do not believe in marriage either. Where i live it costs 25.00 to get married and about 1,500 to get a divorce i believe. What a racket!
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:28 pm

Sam Reeves wrote:I have to say Winston, that you make a strong case.

I agree with you that people should learn to think for themselves, and not just marry because it's something everyone does. It's almost always the same, around their thirties men just kind of think they should be married.

I once worked out the actual cost of marriage for a man over a twenty year period, assuming one child and the usual expenses. Of course it would differ depending on country, city and so on. But one thing that doesn't differ is the fact that (unless you marry a rich female), the man always financially loses 'HUGE'!

In fact, if marriage were a business deal, you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole! It would be insane.

Still, on the other hand there are many men who do want to marry, but the actual result of the marriage isn't always what they expect. I've found many, many women kind of 'behave themselves' before marriage, so the guy thinks that's what he will get for the rest of his marriage (if he marries her).

But afterwards, and not long after, she then lets it all hang-out! The deal is done; add children to the equation, and he isn't going anywhere, for the most part. They (the women) picked him because they knew it would be unlikely he was going anywhere after the kids were born. No guy wants to be 'that guy', that leaves his kids through divorce, or at least, not many.


+100!!^
Last edited by NorthAmericanguy on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It is

Postby NorthAmericanguy » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:39 pm

ErikHeaven wrote:One of those inconvenient truths that hurt or either piss off many people. Yes Winston i agree with everything you say here. My own 22 year old son has been a great source of frustration, and i have not spoken with him in over 6 months. There are no guarantees that they will grow up right and be responsible and want to take care of themselves even when you provide a decent example for them to follow. I stayed in his life the whole time i stayed on him about going to bed early and being prepared for the next day and going to college.
He grew up with this party party party mentality and skirt chasing mentality and live off of mommy mentality.
I really do not want to go through with this nonsense again. Having a child is like playing Russian Roulette you never know what you are going to get and it is quite scary. Not only that i do not trust him with material possessions and i will not go into that. I am not having anymore and i am going to get fixed really soon so that never happens again. Now for the marriage bit well people change and sometimes radically sometimes damn near overnight.
I had an ex that started getting really irresponsible and we were together for just 2 years. So yes i do not believe in marriage either. Where i live it costs 25.00 to get married and about 1,500 to get a divorce i believe. What a racket!


^ Agreed.


As far as per bold, yes, it's true. A woman will be on her best behavior doing all the things that you want her to do (ie, sex, cooking, cleaning, staying in shape) until you finally agree to adopt her (marriage).

Once you marry her, all bets are off and you really have no more leverage over her; at least here in America.

It all varies, I personally know men who got married and in less then 2 years they had wives who gained weight and their wives didn't not even care anymore. Other guys that I heard of had wives that turned into complete SLOBS and refused to have any kind of sex unless it was to make another kid (which that kid would subsequently be used as a hostage to justify the mothers importance and staying home doing NOTHING).

Mind you, this is all while the men were still required to work long hours and pay all the bills. This is completely UNFAIR and this why guys are NO LONGER GETTING MARRIED!
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Postby woodwater » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:55 pm

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.net/forum ... 77#p138277

better see here winston,its slayer who was responding
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Postby Truthville » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:07 pm

It makes you feel like a responsible adult


And THIS is really the truth of the matter! YOU might want to condense your blathering down to this one sentence. THIS is all you need to say about your views on marriage and family.

ErikHeaven?

You said "He grew up with this party party party mentality and skirt chasing mentality and live off of mommy mentality."

You sure Winston isn't your son?
:lol:
"What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: "I am a wretchedly longstanding victim;therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition."

"It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised."
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:33 pm

Truthville wrote:I find it odd that people have to write long essays defending something that is, at heart, a personal choice.


But look at it this way, how many PUBLIC essays/news articles do you see that openly appose not getting married, or having children?

Image



Go to your local bookstore, there are newsstands full of baby magazines, and there are tons books written to help people find a mate and start a family, but there are no books or magazines (that I'm aware of) that tell people THE TRUTH about the downsides of getting married or starting a family.

The point is Truthville, there is a conspiracy of silence in regards to the REALITY of getting married and having kids.
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Postby NorthAmericanguy » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:08 pm

You guys really need to read all the responses on this page, most of the responses are in agreement with many of the things Winston has said on this forum about his own child:

http://www.justrage.com/I_Hate/i-hate-b ... e-a-bitch/







I will post a few here:





"Yes, i'm so with you! I hate, hate, hate, hate every second of being a parent. She is five - no, it does not get better. I take her to concerts and theaters, stay up nights when she's sick, got her into good school, enrichment activities, teach her to read, write, cook, clean...I smile, and I hug and kiss, and tell her I love her - it's never sincere!

Every day-week-month just deeper and deeper into faking, lying, swallowing my real emotions...getting stomach cramps and migraines from all this faking, but it's still 13 more years, until she's at least 18, and I can retire from this crap.

Wish someone warned me before I had a kid - but no, the entire family spent 10 years persuading me how I'm missing on the most important and fulfilling thing in life. Yeah, right!
"




"Seriously, I know how you feel. Sometimes I feel like leaving the kids with a sitter, and leaving town. Fuckin kids are so needy. You lose your identity. Good bye career and everything you worked so hard for. It's true no one tells you how hard bringing up children is. It's the shittiest, most unappreciative job you'll ever have to do in your life. I gave up a full time job for my kids. You do what you have to do but sometimes you wish you can go back to the days when you are single and not have to care about homework, clean clothes, your kids health, lunches, etc. I have a teenager now, I wish he was a toddler again...."






"You'd have to be totally insane to want to be a parent in today's world."





"do have to feel some pity for the mothers posting about how they felt duped by society & family/friends into the Myth Of Motherhood....but I honestly don't know how they ever fell for it. I suppose really young girls would have more easily fallen for the "it's the bestest thing ever - motherhood is awesome", line. But, as a 33 year old woman married for 9 years to the love of my life, I always suspected it was mostly bullshit. Anytime I have observed a mother out in public with her child, the majority of the time it didn't seem like much of a fulfilling or rewarding experience. Especially when the child is out of infancy and starting to become more willful, it looks like total hell. Hearing a kid parrot back "I love you" with no concept of what love really is, wouldn't make it all worth it to me. I get so sick of hearing "oh , it's different when it's your own!", and then finding hundreds of confessions on numerous sites from miserable parents who tell the truth about what a thankless drudgery it really is. I always knew it was; it does baffle me a little bit that women would think any differently....but, it all depends on what you experienced growing up & the influence of family/friends/media, etc., I suppose.

I am also sick of hearing parents tell me that I'll "die alone" and be lonely and regretful in my last years. You know what? Even if they're right to some degree - even if I AM lonely & a bit sad in my final years, I'll have had the satisfaction of living the VAST majority of my life on my own terms; doing whatever I like & answering to nobody. Living happily for the majority of my life, not having to be responsible for anyone but myself, will have made any loneliness in my elder-years worth it
."



"I submit that MOST the mothers who enjoy being maid-servant and functioning at a lower-level for years on end, perhaps found the demands of being among adults who expect a meaningful contribution too much and think of motherhood as a retreat; and if they had not yet began to live or had no means to enjoy more in life, then there was no sacrifice or loss for them when becoming a mother."



"To all you single mothers out there...how about keeping your c**t to yourself, your legs crossed, and keep your genetic waste out of the gene pool? It probably went down like this.....you completely treated like shit the nice, caring men to go straight for the stud with no job but a motorcycle. You thought once you wrapped your legs around him, he would be yours and the kid would cement the deal...but guess what. You failed. A guy like that has his choice of dumb c**ts to f**k and you were just one of them. So now you are stuck and pissed and now even the nice guys don't want your dumb ass. Pretty funny actually. Enjoy the hell you created for yourself." LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




"I also want to add that kids ruin your marriage and your relationship with your husband. It is inevitable, because since mothers are so exshausted and need help from their husbands, who in turn don't want to be bothered after work or are afraid of their kids tantrums, will not want to help. So arguments and fights occur, which make wives even more hateful of their husbands. So please do not have kids to help your marriage, kids will ruin it, that's why you see so many coupled divorce once they have kids."




"Oh ladies. I feel for each one of you and have been there myself. I have a 9 and 11 year old and, for me, it has gotten easier. Those early years were HARD. I mean HARD. I had a good paying part time job, a husband who made good money, and VERY helpful supportive parents with plenty of money. And it was still hard. So I just don't know how some of you do it. Hats off to you. My ex husband and I divorced 5 years ago and I remarried a guy with no kids. Those weekends that my kids went to be with their dad were HEAVEN when they were younger. I think part of the problem is this weird world we live in. I mean even now sometimes I'm like what do I do with these kids? Kids don't play outside in our neighborhood. We don't even know our neighbors of five years. Where are the aunts, uncles, and cousins who drop by? Mine all live across the country. Many people are financially stressed to the max. It all seems so different from when I was a kid and played outside with neighborhood kids from morning until night roaming from house to house. These days we're afraid our kids will get abducted. I feel very socially isolated and alone in raising my kids"






"I literally dread having children now. My sister has two children and is on the verge of a nervous breakdown. My father had to hire a nanny to raise my siblings since my mother simply could not cope with parenting us. My grandmother wrote frequently in her diary that she regretted ever having children. Suddenly all the Betty Friedan writings I had to read in college are starting to make sense. Unless you have a network of support, having children will completely erase your identity and kill every last ounce of happiness you once had. Our society is so f***ed up when you really think about it. You can buy thousands of dollars worth of crap for your kids, there are several channels dedicated to children, and tons of restaurants and stores. Yet the modern woman has no network, no "village" to help her raise her children like she would have several generations ago. It used to be that kids had to accomodate to your lifestyle, and now we must accomodate theirs. Its f***ing ridiculous."



"Others have already said it well....but! A few of you tossers actively search for I f***ing hate kids, read EVERY comment, and THEN proceed to convince yourself how f***ing great your kids are. You just keep on convincing yourself because the rest of us don't give a f***ing rats arse.

Anyway hi to you all who have found out also that motherhood sucks. I have to concur with others who've said if you're waiting until they're 18 for freedom think again. I have 2 sons, 28 and 25 and a daughter 23. All live their own lives, UNTIL of course that f***ing 3rd 4th or 5th overseas holiday leaves them broke or their mobile phone bill they left on international roaming (AGAIN) blows out to $1000. Yeah sure I could say deal with it yourself, the first time I did that the oldest moved back home for 6 months. f**k that, I'd rather pay for them to not come home.

Let's now deal with manners, I can't complain here. Every time they have their hand out for money I always receive a please, usually 2 or 3 if I hesitate. If they come for dinner they will always say "thanks, great meal but I really must go." I laugh because they must think I want them to stay. They are all single at the moment, at least I don't have to be pleasant to their partners as well as them.


Going back to their childhood years. It was horrid, a nightmare which I can't believe is over. I still have dreams where they're late for school and wont hurry. I wake up in a cold sweat and laugh to myself at the sheer delight knowing it wasn't real. We had them when we were 17, 20 and 22. Too f***ing young and stupid to know any better. We haven't even been overseas yet (live in Melbourne, Australia) because guess why? We've worked our arses off buying a home and putting the 2 who wanted to go to uni through years of study. My husband would die if he knew I have resented these blood sucking leeches for years, he's the "no worries, she'll be right mate" type of bloke. Typical Australian male!
"
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