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Has a man failed if a date isn't followed by intimacy?

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Has a man failed if a date isn't followed by intimacy?

Postby Winston » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:20 pm

I'm wondering about something.

Us guys usually feel like we've failed if we go out on a date, and then afterward, she does not want to go to your place or invite you to hers for intimacy. For some reason, men naturally feel like failures if they take a girl out to dinner and then they go their separate ways afterward. It results in a let down or feeling of having failed as a man. My question is: Is this feeling justified? Is there something wrong with it?

The thing is, women would never consider a date to be a failure if no intimacy followed it. But men often do. Why is that?

Suppose you see a girl 2, 3 or 4 times, and she still won't go home with you or invite you to hers. Does that mean you should feel like you've failed somehow? Does that mean there's something wrong? Does it mean you should stop seeing her?

What if she calls you a lot and cares about you, but won't give you any intimacy after any dates? Does that mean something is wrong?

Also, if a girl tells you that she moves slowly, is that always a bad sign? PUA people think it is. But is it really? Women always use that excuse with beta males it seems. But with other guys, they will not use that excuse, but move quickly instead. That sucks.
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Postby onezero4u » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:54 am

"What if she calls you a lot and cares about you, but won't give you any intimacy after any dates? Does that mean something is wrong? "

that means she considers you one of her female friends (who happens to possibly have testicles)

heres my semi-flexible guideline:

date 1...kiss on mouth goodnite at a minimum
date 2...making out minimum
date 3...seal the deal or damn close

if youre at date 3 and nothing to show for it...cut her off completely b/c you wont likely ever bang her b/c shes not turned on by you...
no big deal...happens alot to most everyone.
marriage is a 3 ring circus: engagement ring, wedding ring and then suffering.
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Postby Winston » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:53 am

Yeah but that doesn't apply to conservative women right?

You assume that every girl that likes you will have sex by the third date? Is that reasonable or rushed? I know guys think this way, unless they are manginas or conservative themselves. But is it right to think this way?
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Postby xiongmao » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:56 am

3 dates with a Chinese woman and if nothing happens it's probably best to bail.

Chinese women often make the first move, although they probably won't if they're virgins (still quite common in China).
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Postby Winston » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:50 am

xiongmao wrote:3 dates with a Chinese woman and if nothing happens it's probably best to bail.

Chinese women often make the first move, although they probably won't if they're virgins (still quite common in China).


Are you talking about the three date sex rule? Why? What is the basis of it? How come only men advocate it but not women?

How would conservative women make the first move? As Rock said in this thread, you have to seduce her. It's not in a woman's nature to make the first move. She may drop hints, but she isn't going to make the first move. Come on now.

Here is what Elena Petrova of ElenasModels.com told me when I asked her about the 5 date sex rule:

“Winston,

I will answer your questions and yes, you can post my answers, with the link
to my site."

Winston:
"The owner of the list and some of the men said that when searching for a
wife in Russia and dating a RW, you should follow a rule called “The 5 Date Sex
Ruleâ€￾ which says that if you don't have sex within 5 dates, that she probably
isn't interested in you, and you should not continue wasting your precious
time. They claim the rule works and separates the disinterested from the real
potential wives. The theory is that if there is enough real chemistry between
you two, then sex should naturally happen within five dates.

However, I have asked some RW about this and most of them said that it was a
horrible idea and that they would not have sex with someone even if they were
madly in love with him, in only 5 dates.

What is your opinion on this?"

Sex on a first or second date with a Russian woman will usually only
constitute she is stupid or was very drunk, or that the man was very insistent,
up to physical pressure. Sex on the first or second date will usually be
perceived as inappropriate by the woman, and she will feel very uncomfortable
about it, so sex early in relationship may be detrimental for the future of your
relationship.

How soon sex will happen when dating a Russian woman, depends mostly on the
insistency and experience of the man. If a man is not very experienced and
insistent, sex may not happen even after 10 or 20 dates. From the other hand, if
the man is insistent, a Russian woman may give in without being really
interested in him, and pressurizing a woman about sex can have a negative impact
on the relationship, since Russian women are used to Russian men who are only
interested in sex without commitment, and may decide you are the same type.

An inexperienced woman will never have sex with a man within 5 dates. “The 5
date sex ruleâ€￾ may eliminate a large pool of really interested decent women
but accept disinterested women with vast experience that “do not consider sex as
a good enough reason to exchange namesâ€￾ (Russian joke). I have heard from men
who were surprised when their yesterday's sexual partners did not want to
know them today.

So sex on its own is NOT a definite indication of how attracted the woman is
to you.

The real indication is her body language. If she unconsciously reciprocates
your body language (moves forward when you move towards her, smiles back when
you smile at her, takes you “under the armâ€￾ when you walk together (crossing
your and her elbows), sits close to you in public places, is relaxed and seems
to be at ease even when you make awful mistakes, and always tries to help you -
then she is attracted to you. If she, vice versa, moves back when you move
forward, crosses her legs and arms when you move closer to her, looks away when
you look at her, tries not to sit close to you in public places, is irritated
with minor things and seems to be unhappy or indifferent, and does not help
you out even when you really need it - then she is not attracted to you.

With those clear body language and personality disposition indications, I do
not think one needs “The 5 date sex ruleâ€￾ to detect if a woman is physically
attracted to him or not. Again, with Russian women that are used to comply with
dominant men, sex may not indicate a strong physical attraction but rather
her compliance with an unspoken Russian rule that if a woman agreed on a date
with the man, she should pay him back for what he did for her (a dinner, a
movie, etc), or she will be considered as a teaser (if she did not like the guy,
she should not go out with him at all). In this case, if a man insists on sex,
she may comply only because of this cultural paradigm. A woman with gentle
disposition may comply with the man's request for sex only because of that,
while she only goes out with this particular man because he is a guest and a
guest should be cared for and should not be left to his mercy, even if she is
not interested in him at all. So she cannot simply send him to hell and has to
go out with him, and once she goes out with him, she feels obliged to comply if
he insists on sex.

Since you have limited time for a meeting, and women ARE sexually curious
about you (many women suspect there may be something wrong with a man if he has
never been married after the age of 30, or if he lived alone for many years
without a girlfriend), a woman will usually try to arrange a possibility for a
romantic encounter before you leave, but it may happen only 1 or 2 days before
your departure.

So I would forfeit this “The 5 date sex ruleâ€￾ and rather learn body language;
to advance your knowledge, read any book on the subject, there are dozens
available on Amazon.

"Also, on a second issue, the owner of the list also claims that if a RW
you're dating doesn't introduce you to her family and friends after a few dates,
then it is a red flag or bad sign. I don't understand the logic of this,
since I feel that women will introduce you to their family or friends when they
feel ready or when they feel that there is something serious. Why should a
woman decide whether she is serious about you or not after just a few dates?

What is your opinion on this?"

This is closer to home. Introducing you to her family does constitute woman's
serious intentions, unless it were you who insisted on seeing them.
Introducing to friends is an indication, too, but not as strong and explicit,
since many women do not disclose their search for a foreign partner to their
friends, except the closest ones. The reasons for that are many: from feeling
inadequate because she failed to find a partner in “normalâ€￾ way, to jealousy and
possible fear that a friend may “stealâ€￾ the man. Also I have heard about women
who were fired from their jobs or declined promotions on the base that she would
anyway leave soon, since she is looking for a partner abroad, so she is not
going to work hard for the company. Since it is only about 4-5% of women that
seek partners abroad that succeed in their search, it is understandable most
women conceal their search for a foreign partner from their friends. Personally,
I only told my friends that I was leaving when I had the visa in my passport.
Until then, only 2 of my closest friends and my mother were aware of my search.

The faster a woman introduces you to her family, the more serious she is
about you. If she does not offer to introduce you to her family that lives in
the same city, and you has left the city without being introduced to her family,
this is a very strong indication she is not seriously interested in you, or has
something to hide (for example, has a stable lover, known to her parents).
Unless she is ashamed of her parents (can happen too), this is not a good sign.

Since you have limited time for a meeting, a woman will usually want to
introduce you at least to her parents (or to the parent she is closer to, if
parents are divorced), before you leave.

Anyway, first of all, look for the body language to detect the woman's
interest; this is the most powerful and revealing indication. In a case if a
woman tries to “closeâ€￾ herself to you (constantly crosses her arms and legs,
when you are together) and is irritated with minor things, this is the sure
indication she is NOT genuinely attracted to you, even if you had sex and she
introduced you to her family and friends.

Sincerely
Elena Petrova
RUSSIAN BRIDES CYBER GUIDE
http://www.womenrussia.com

W: Then in my follow up email, I asked her this:

"By the way, I understand your points, but the premise of the 5 date sex
rule is that IF a woman REALLY likes you as a boyfriend or husband, then she
will not mind having sex within 5 dates. What do you think of this premise?"

Her reply was this:

It again depends on THE woman.
And a man will have to put some pressure on her to have sex, she herself will
not jump on him, unless she is very drunk.
This pressure may be not well taken by a less experienced girl.

She seeks a husband, not a sexual endeavor. If you leave the town within 5
days, then 5-day rule will be valid. If you leave in 2 weeks, you cannot hope
she will be happy to have sex within 5 days.

Also, depends on how good you already knew each other before you met (you
probably already had virtual or phone sex, then the 5-day rule may be valid) and
how well you can communicate in each other's language, and how much time you
are spending together. If you can freely communicate, and you meet at a
Caribbean holiday resort, sex will happen faster than where you can hardly
communicate and meet each other once a day for a dinner at her home town.

Again, it is about quality. I believe such “rulesâ€￾ as the quoted
5-dates-sex-rule are dangerous. Men should not feel under pressure to get sex
within 5 dates; they can easily spoil everything, and not every man can request
sex in an acceptable for women manner. Men are in much better of just being
themselves, and allowing things to develop naturally. If a girl shows the right
body language, then the man will know when it is the right time for sex, when
the situation arises. If there is no right body language, then he should not
even bother with sex requests, this will anyway end up in vain.

Sincerely
Elena Petrova
RUSSIAN BRIDES CYBER GUIDE
http://www.womenrussia.com


What do you think? Is she right? Does she make sense?
Last edited by Winston on Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Taco » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:58 am

If a date with an American woman doesn't involve intimacy your ahead of the game. What guy, wants a 250lb. chick on top of them cutting off your circulation, giving you AIDS, talking about their last boyfriend while trying to convince you she's the victim.
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Postby Repatriate » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:20 am

She's certainly right about body language but I think women naturally downplay their own sexual proclivities though. The 5 date rule in general is probably true but she's right about body language and other indicators such as meeting family and friends as being more significant. A girl who isn't really serious will hide you from their friends and will never show you to their family. That's a universal thing across cultures.

Some other things that I find to be signs of interest:

Another good sign is the casual touch. During a date if you touch her arm, lower back, or elbow and she recoils then it's a real bad sign. Either she's uptight or she doesn't care much for you. If she reacts by moving toward or against you then it's a good thing.

Plus how willing is she to put up money for small things. If she tries to not have you spend too much and pays for things on her own sometimes without asking then it shows she's thinking about your well being. If she's a spendthrift during the date and doesn't seem to care about your cash then you should probably run for the hills.

Women that are interested will also want you to know about their life. They'll show you pics of close family or various gatherings.

Even though Elena is mostly right about body language a couple things she's not 100% correct on. Some women cross their arms because they are insecure or nervous. On the flip side people say women touching their hair when talking with someone is a sign of attraction. Again, it could be a nervous/anxiety thing too. It doesn't always mean one thing.
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Postby lavezzi » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:30 pm

Recently I've gone out on 3 dates with a Korean girl, each of which lasting from the evening to the early hours of the morning. She makes it very obvious that she likes me; when laughing she always presses her hands into me, sits very close to me, gives me compliments and says things like "you must have so many girlfriends". But, at the end of the night when I try to kiss her, she turns so it lands on her cheek. I assume in the mind of a Christian Korean, kissing is something that is done only within the confines of a relationship. Whereas here, sex on the first time of meeting is considered normal. So it completely varies based on the girl's background.
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Postby polya » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:15 pm

I feel you are a failure if there's no intimacy after the 2nd date. Myself, I won't be intimate after the first date as it feels like I have a choice about the girl. Mechanical sex is boring to me, so I'm not forced into this by f&cking straight away.

How do you know she's not really following "The Rules" - e.g. expect you to pay, won't call you, won't put out... It's a waste of time giving her too many chances - give her the hard word & see her response.
Last edited by polya on Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Winston » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:05 pm

Repatriate wrote:She's certainly right about body language but I think women naturally downplay their own sexual proclivities though. The 5 date rule in general is probably true but she's right about body language and other indicators such as meeting family and friends as being more significant. A girl who isn't really serious will hide you from their friends and will never show you to their family. That's a universal thing across cultures.

Some other things that I find to be signs of interest:

Another good sign is the casual touch. During a date if you touch her arm, lower back, or elbow and she recoils then it's a real bad sign. Either she's uptight or she doesn't care much for you. If she reacts by moving toward or against you then it's a good thing.

Plus how willing is she to put up money for small things. If she tries to not have you spend too much and pays for things on her own sometimes without asking then it shows she's thinking about your well being. If she's a spendthrift during the date and doesn't seem to care about your cash then you should probably run for the hills.

Women that are interested will also want you to know about their life. They'll show you pics of close family or various gatherings.

Even though Elena is mostly right about body language a couple things she's not 100% correct on. Some women cross their arms because they are insecure or nervous. On the flip side people say women touching their hair when talking with someone is a sign of attraction. Again, it could be a nervous/anxiety thing too. It doesn't always mean one thing.


I see. So what if she gives you all those positive signs you list above, plus positive body language, but doesn't give you sex after 5 dates or go home with you? What do you conclude then? What do you do then?
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Postby Christianfilipinacom » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Hi Winston, If someone is looking for an easy "intimacy" it seems like the person either chose the wrong candidate or had the wrong timing or lacked the key phrases. If someone is looking for something long-term, then (just as Elena wrote) a longer courtship is not a problem or bad sign. The one thing to remember is that the gentleman should consistently show small kind gestures to any lady, even if she does not respond; in fact, if he is looking for a response, then the lady will not truly appreciate the gesture but will only respond as if she did. Eventually most ladies will begin to look forward to the small kind gestures, and affection is built slowly but surely.
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Postby Repatriate » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:23 am

Winston wrote:I see. So what if she gives you all those positive signs you list above, plus positive body language, but doesn't give you sex after 5 dates or go home with you? What do you conclude then? What do you do then?

I'd get into her mind a bit and find out why she's so reluctant. Bad past relationships? Shyness or inexperience with sexual relations? or is she just a bit of a prude?

Then there's the other part of it which is a possibility where she's just not sexually attracted and she considers you a close friend. On the other hand if she lets you get touchy feely in other ways then that shouldn't even be the case.

The last part is what most guys are assuming automatically but i'd say that's just one possibility.

How long do you stick with a girl who is reluctant to get intimate is basically down to how real your emotional relationship is and what your objective is. Marriage or just a fling?
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Postby E_Irizarry » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:49 am

Taco wrote:If a date with an American woman doesn't involve intimacy your ahead of the game. What guy, wants a 250lb. chick on top of them cutting off your circulation, giving you AIDS, talking about their last boyfriend while trying to convince you she's the victim.


LOL unorthodox Taco @ it again. ;O)
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Postby Taco » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:15 am

It's often difficult to interpret intimacy on the first date. It might be a sign the woman is crazy about you or it might be a sign she's really unstable.

In western countries, the later is the most likely interpretation. However, in a more conservative country like China, relationships often progress at lightning speed and this is considered normal. The sex act is ment to "seal the deal"(marriage). If you decide not to marry a Chinese woman after you've slept with her you can expect a very hostile visit from the male members of her family. However, this is changing in China's big cities where short term relationships are more common.

If your looking for a long term relationship its a good idea to take things slowly. You want to be thinking very clearly when you decide to marry. Sex on the first date does not help this process.
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Postby samurai_panda » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:40 am

Biological science keeps saying men are just horny animals that just view women as sex objects for their own pleasure.

Well they were right. Just playing.

I think a GOOD woman inspires the noble nature in man. We men feel natural as strong defenders and providers.

Let go of the hatred and bitterness. There are people who care about you. You are just too consumed with jaded bitterness and being miserable.

Enjoy life. Smile more. Laugh at stupid shit. f**k it, you could die tomorrow. You really want to live like a miserable fool?

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