Discuss dating, relationships and foreign women.
Ummm...nope, always said I wanted to be different and better than that. And I am. Teaching men to be men and dating protocols isn't teaching how to pick up women. That's as far as they go, from what I gather. You're the expert, you show me how many of these PUA sites or books or videos show you how to give proper massage, kiss and explain a woman's sexuality. I bet none. I do and my knowledge is vast.
"Be somebody and the women will come to you".
Won't work in many cases.
Suppose you are successful in a way that women can't understand (widely respected engineer among fellow engineers). Now you have to convince the woman that you are successful as an engineer. She doesn't have a clue about engineering, so all you can do is flaunt your money, which might be quite nice, like $300/year, but no better than doctor. And flaunting money and nothing else attracts the worst type of women. Suppose you are in great overall physical condition, in the sense of being about to knock off 75 push-ups, run 3 miles in 20 minutes, but not bulked up. What are you going to do? Get down on the floor and do 75 push-ups in front of her? Ask her to time you while you run around the block 50 times? On and on it goes. And even if you can convince her, there might be a dozen guys fighting for the one quality woman who is single.
Let's do the numbers. Suppose we start with 100 young men and women. 10 of the women get picked off by older men. 20 of the women share 10 men (2 per harem). 60 of the women get one man each. That leaves 10 single young women for 30 single young men. Let's suppose 9 of the single women and 18 of the single men are worthless losers (men dominate both extremes, which is why there are twice as many men as women losers). So 1 single quality woman for 12 single quality men. Actually, the true situation might be even worse, because there are more young men than young women, rather than a 50:50 split.
Approaching like a madman is also bad advice. Wait until you get an indication of interest, then approach. An IOI means the women sees you as a potential mate based on appearance only, but she can't make a final decision until she learns about your personality and other qualities. So you have to demonstrate that personality and those qualities. If you approach without an IOI, you'll get rejected too much and that will cause you to become resentful towards women. If you are not getting IOI's, then work on your appearance. If you are getting IOI's but can't follow-through, then is when you might need dating advice, though I doubt PUAs are the ones to give it. Their tactics will only work with the skanks and those are women you should glad to be rejected by.
If your appearance is truly unfixable, then resign yourself to drastic steps, like buying a woman from a desperately poor background. Indian untouchables, women who've been raped in Pakistan and are thus unfit for marriage, that sort of thing. You'll probably need a local intermediary to help with this. Dole the money out slowly so you don't get scammed. Personally, I'd just stay celibate and masturbate if I were in this situation, but then that's me.
lasttry, good stuff. Keep it coming.
I agree with you, that simply being a solid, successful guy doesn't necessarily mean crap.
Plenty of women out there can't even appreciate the brains or skill certain careers involve.
There's really no way around it: you have to have some kind of charisma, at least something about you that makes you seem non-self-conscious and at ease with yourself. Maybe you don't say much, but you're relaxed and got a twinkle in your eye. Or you're mysterious, intense. Novelty. I'd say boring, mundane and "nice" is the thing women don't like.
Self-consciousness is death and women smell it. Unfortunately, it's hard to NOT be self-conscious. There are times I'm not and I definitely like myself better.
And I also agree, try to look for IOIs. Cold approaching random women is stupid, unless you are just flat out universally good looking.
I'm curious, I'm currently getting some IOIs from an attractive office worker in my building who works on a different floor/department from me. I've floated this to some other people, and always get the default "don't date people you work with!" shut down. Maybe that's true if your intentions are short-term gaming/banging, but what if I seriously could date this girl? I don't mean to jump the gun, but the reality is, a lot of guys do meet their wives at the workplace. I am very attracted to her.
How do I go about making an opening/approach to chat her up more and create enough rapport to get to the bottom of it and ask her out on a date? So far, I rarely see her since we work in different departments, I have opened and chatted with her briefly (she sometimes works the receptionist desk and I occasionally pass her in the hallway or see her in the cafe). She's definitely given out solid IOIs (curious/attracted eye contact, saying hello, etc), I'd like to get down on it but don't know how since the workplace is so constructed and I never get an unrestricted time window to talk to her.
First, some workplaces actually encourage marriages between employees, so that the employees become more attached to the company and thus will find it harder to leave (and hence can be paid slightly less, to be cynical). That was true at the company I worked with long ago. Generally, these companies have rules in place so you can't work under/above your spouse and they'll arrange to prevent that from happening. On the other hand, some companies strongly discourage inter-employee dating/relationships/marriage. Find out what your company's policy is first. Also, what is their policy about sexual harassment.
The advice about "don't shit where you eat" is actually sound, if the woman is a bitch. If she is nice, and things don't work out between you two, the consequences shouldn't be that bad. But you should think exactly how important this job is to you, in case things don't work out and she does go full-psycho on you.
Second, the first date should be lunch during a workday. Your question thus reduces to "how to ask her if she wants to have lunch together someday, so as to maximize the chance she says yes". Also, you need to politely leave the door open for asking again if she says no the first time, so be sure to smile and follow up with something like "okay maybe in the future then. You don't mind if I ask you to lunch again in the future, do you?" in case she says no.
You don't need a big window of time to pop the question. But you should think out your wording so as to maximize chances of success the first time and avoid leaving a bad impression that would compromise the ability to re-ask the question in the future. A little nervousness is fine, it shows her you are interested. Too much nervousness is off-putting, it shows you are more concerned about yourself (excessive nervousness is a result of worrying about what other people might think about what you are doing) than about her. Something simple and straightforward is usually best: "Hi, we meet again. You know, I was wondering if you'd like to have lunch with me someday?"
Don't delay too long, since that is also a bad sign that you don't really want her. If she inquires about your delay thus far, you can easily excuse yourself by saying you were involved with someone else, though you certainly wanted to ask her out previously.
^^I like that advice. I could tell her about a cool restaurant nearby and ask her if she wants to come with me. Should I ask "today", "this week" or "sometime"??? I wonder what kind of banter I can create to get down to that question. I like the Roosh tactic of picking out a prop (book or object a girl is holding/using, etc). I suppose I could ask about her work/role in the company, how things are going, etc. and then lead into something more juicy and personalized.
I don't think my company has any solid no-dating policy, if they do, they're lax about it, because there are 3 couples in our building, and I believe at least 1 of them met at the company. It's an important job to me, it's what I do, although there's a strong chance I may start looking and be switching to something better within the next year.
The girl I'm interested in doesn't seem too psycho, she's young (probably mid-20s), attractive, fairly quiet, Latin American descent, kind of FOB-y. She's been in the building for 3-4 months, so, yeah, I've been stuttering over this on account of the aforementioned don't-shit-where-you-eat rule. My only hesitation is that she frequently roles with this other girl in her dept whom I know is a bit of a b1tch. She usually goes to lunch with her.
You don't need to impress her with a cool restaurant for this first date. The important thing is isolate her from her friends so you can get to know one another, since you haven't even spoken to her yet much. If there is a company cafeteria and you two normally bring your lunch, you could sit at a table there. Or if there is a cheap restaurant nearby, you could go there. Or sit in the park if weather is still nice where you are. Where I used to work, we had 30 minutes for lunch, so the cafeteria option was the only one. Maybe things are different where you work. All you need to do is break the ice and then ask her if she wants to eat lunch with you sometime? Don't propose anything yet. If she says yes, then throw off a list of options: cafeteria with bag lunches, cool restaurant, another restaurant, eat in the park, etc. The best option is the one with the minimum of distractions.
If she is interested in you, and isn't currently attached and wants a boyfriend and you don't act like a fool when asking her out, she will say yes unless she is very timid, in which case she may say I don't know or otherwise act evasive. In that case, you need to be persistent without scaring her off. If she continues to be evasive, then back off and do like I said about preparing the ground for asking her again. The first request will have planted the idea in her head and she will begin to look at you differently. Wait a while then ask again and see what happens. Some girls are shy and you have to be persistent with them. If she says she already has a boyfriend, she may be telling the truth or lying. Either way, treat this the same way as a refusal. That is, prepare the ground for asking her again in the future.
You can easily make up for your dithering around so far by telling her, as soon as she accepts your lunch proposal, that you'd be meaning to ask her out before but had some other things going on. If she asks for an explanation, say it's a long story and you'll tell her at lunch, then continue to be evasive at lunch and hint at a previous girlfriend that you broke up with recently. Everyone wants people who are high demand, so subtle hints that you are wanted by other girls are always good.
Stop fooling around with this worrying about bantering before asking. Act like a salesman: smile, say something innocuous to get her relaxed, then pop the question before she gets bored. If what you are saying is true about indications of interest, she has already made the decision that you qualify based on appearance. Assuming she is unattached and wants a boyfriend, she is ready to talk to you and will say yes when you invite her out, unless you act like a fool. So no need to be fancy.
I should note that I'm 53. Things might be different with young people nowadays, though I doubt it. Also, I'm something of a MGTOW and don't think too highly of long-term relationships and marriage and apparently am on the track to being whoremonger, so I have some misgivings about the advice I'm giving you. I feel like I'm giving you a pep talk for a suicide mission...
I know it's been a while, but thought I'd give an update to this thread.
Lasttry, albeit with some delay (holidays, travel, limited chances to talk to this girl and my own hesitancy/lack of energy to pursue a possible romance at work), I followed your advice and got down to business with talking up and getting after this attractive co-worker. I isolated her a few times, reciprocated her signals of interest, then asked her out to lunch late last week. She agreed and we went out today! We only had 45 minutes or so at a little Italian kitchen. I think it went alright, we had some good banter about our interests, family, etc; I told her I've been busy with travel/family stuff/work audits. She smiled a lot, and was asking me a lot of direct, personal questions. Not sure if we totally connected, I have a tendency to come across as somewhat reserved and not always get the best/sexy talk/vibe going with women on a first date, but I drove her to the place, owned the interaction, expressed interest, persisted, and got her number at the end. She's not as different from some of my co-workers as I thought, she mentioned about a double-date that she went on last weekend (girl game?), but we have some common interests including music/dance, ethnic foods, so I told her she should come out dancing with me sometime and exchanged numbers.
I'd definitely like to see her again. So, it seems my next move is to confidently hit her again and firm up a specific date after work hours. I could call/text, but I think approaching her at work again might be the better, bolder way. Or, should I keep things ambiguous? I know she's been attracted to me, and we know some more stuff about each other now, but I sense she may be a bit on the fence. She is fairly quiet and so am I, she even asked me "you seem like you are pretty quiet when I've seen you around work" to which I replied "I'm only quiet at work while I'm focused, then I'm not so quiet when I go out after work". I hinted about girls I've danced with in the Salsa scene and a female that I was involved with/played in a band with a while back (guy game).
I'm really excited to have gotten bold and put myself out there for her! The lunch date was def the right call, thank you!! She responded positively alright, and it felt great to take her out. It was game on from the get-go, as soon as we sat down she asked me straight up how old I was and if I had kids, or wanted kids. She's 26, doesn't have kids. I guess PUA types would criticize what I've done so far for being top heavy on "provider" or "beta" game, but I just like to think I'm being a man while keepin' it cool. Not sure if I need to play up the push-pull/hard-to-get stuff at this point, throw some "negs" at her or whatever, or if I should keep going the more direct route and see if she's down for a dancing or dinner date? I was thinking I could approach her again at work, pick up where we left off on some detail from our lunch convo, then ask her for a specific date this weekend. I think the question here now is "how do I charm her to an evening date without her flaking/declining?" Thoughts?
That's the BS self-doubting and eggshell walking you have to do in the states.
I always thought you were going to relocate as per this website, FFL. And why on earth would you follow advice from lasttry?
In other places you just tell them they're pretty straight out before/during the date and tell them your intentions and they actually appreciate it.
Dude there's another reality out there.
1)Too much of one thing defeats the purpose.
2)Everybody is full of it. What's your hypocrisy?
If it wasn't for lasttry's advice in the above posts, I would not have gone on a date with this girl yesterday. I would not have even seriously entertained the idea of pursuing her, let alone known how to make something happen.
I basically have told this girl that I'm interested in her and want to see her again. I've clearly put myself out there to her and she's complied by coming out with me. I just want to pursue this girl further in a way so that I maximize my chances of capitalizing if there seriously could be something working between us here now.
Yes, I've been doing my research about an international trip to explore women/dating options in other countries. I'm currently testing the waters a bit with a few trials of international dating sites. I'm going out of the country next month for 10 days to get a glimpse. That said, I'm not an idealogue like many of you guys on this board where I think all American women are nothing but trash and other countries are paradise.
I got too burnt out with the ambiguous stuff and receiving no feedback.
Kudos if things are working out for you, keep posting. At the end of the day what matters is that you're happy, not what we say of course.
1)Too much of one thing defeats the purpose.
2)Everybody is full of it. What's your hypocrisy?
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