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Ukraininian Girl POV

Discuss dating, relationships and foreign women.

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Ukraininian Girl POV

Postby Jester » Fri May 23, 2014 11:42 pm

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/w ... 38742.html

It’s not about the money, it’s about partnership, writes Tetiana Vorozhko. I am a Ukrainian woman in a happy marriage with a U.S. citizen. Our story is a part of a modern trend. Many of the girlfriends I used to hang around with in Kyiv, as well as my own sister, are now raising children in Warsaw, Munich, London, Toronto, Denver, Oklahoma City and Los Angeles; our friends in the Washington, D.C., area are mostly mixed couples of Ukrainian women married to American men.

Why is that?

The reasons are plenty. In many comments to Alina Rudya’s article [The People of Ukraine: Part 2 -- Women, Kyiv Post, March 12], both Ukrainian and Western men blame Slavic beauties for chasing the money. OK. Who doesn’t? Everybody wants better lives for themselves and their offspring. Let’s be honest. That includes the ability to buy better things and do more exciting stuff.

All women around the world prefer men who make more money, the same as our ancestors preferred Stone Age hunters who could kill more game to feed their families. Even if a girl in love marries a poor guy, she still sees some potential in him. Nobody goes into a lifelong union determined to stay poor forever.

Of course, there are gold diggers. Anna Nicole Smith, who married a Texas billionaire more than twice her age, probably has no Ukrainian blood. If you see an old rich guy marrying a beautiful woman 30 years younger, I would be cautious about believing that she is smitten by his personality, no matter her nationality.

All of the pairings between Ukrainian women and U.S. and European men that we know, including ourselves, developed their relationships typically: Sexual attraction, passion, love, doubts, periods of separation, deep friendship, etc. However, I also believe that there is something special that clicks in these relationships. It is vague and hard to measure. But it is definitely there.

First, I think that it is more acceptable for women to marry abroad than for men, the same way as our grandmothers married fellows and moved to other villages. When I studied at a U.S. university, I could see that girls from the former Soviet Union tended to pick up local trends much more easily than their male counterparts.

Second, modern Ukrainian society is a little weird when it comes to gender relations. There are traditional societies where women are less educated than men, do not make decisions regarding their own lives, seldom work outside the house, have many children and, as a result, are completely dependent on men. Somebody might insist that they are still treated with respect, but I say that they can be treated any way the men want. There are also Western societies where women are educated, have careers, make decisions regarding their own lives and tend to have fewer children. Women in those societies generally demand respect and equal treatment and normally get it.

The former Soviet Union countries fall somewhere in between. Our women do everything (and more) that Western women do, but often get the treatment like in traditional societies.

One good indicator of respect is how housework is shared. When I was in my mid-20s, I was living with a man in Kyiv for about a year. I was more advanced in my career, worked longer hours, made more money and financially contributed more to our household. At the same time, I was doing all the chores by myself. After we broke up, older women criticized me for letting this young man go. Because he didn’t drink, didn’t beat me and didn’t screw around, that was supposed to be good enough for me.

None of the factors is biological. They’re all cultural. I know many Ukrainian immigrants who have equal relations in their marriage with shared responsibilities and respect, the same as I have in my marriage. There are many “modern familiesâ€￾ between Ukrainians in Ukraine, but often these men in those families studied or lived abroad.

Third, there are simply not so many husband-quality men in Ukraine. There are more men in prisons or who are drug addicts and heavy drinkers. The economic problems in Ukraine make many men poor. It is more acceptable for men to marry down in terms of career and education.

As a result, well-educated and beautiful women who have their own careers are the most likely to end up single. Because those women spent time building their careers, they did not marry early, and by the age of 25, their chance of finding a decent match in Ukraine becomes slim. I have so many girlfriends of this description in their early 30s that it breaks my heart!

Fourth, as soon as men in Ukraine earn some decent money, having a lover becomes a status thing, next to having a flashy car, out-of-town house and vacations abroad. Of course, Western men also cheat, but it is not as widespread or as accepted.

At the end, it all comes down to children. When I was in my relationship in Kyiv, I wondered: If we have a child, how would it all work? Would I still have to do everything at home, earn money and take care of the child? How much help from him can I count on? What kind of an example would he would set for the child? Would he be able to provide for the family if I couldn’t work?

Now I do have a beautiful baby boy. My husband and I are working, busy and somewhat exhausted. But we work as a team. If I happen to lose a job, he would be able to support the three of us, and vice versa. Marriage is a partnership and everybody wants a reliable partner. This is not about chasing money. This is pursuit of happiness.


Tetiana Vorozhko, a native Ukrainian married to a U.S. citizen, lives in Vienna, Virginia. She has a master’s degree in journalism from Ohio University.
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Postby jtest28 » Sat May 24, 2014 12:01 am

I still ain't buy'in it. . .

Been there, done that too.

Certainly no one can doubt Eastern Europeans are great with words. Ive seen this myself many times, even the men are good with the gab. But in this case its all bullshit. . .
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Re: Ukraininian Girl POV

Postby TopSpruce » Sat May 24, 2014 4:23 am

Jester wrote:http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/why-we-marry-foreign-men-38742.html

It’s not about the money, it’s about partnership, writes Tetiana Vorozhko. I am a Ukrainian woman in a happy marriage with a U.S. citizen. Our story is a part of a modern trend. Many of the girlfriends I used to hang around with in Kyiv, as well as my own sister, are now raising children in Warsaw, Munich, London, Toronto, Denver, Oklahoma City and Los Angeles; our friends in the Washington, D.C., area are mostly mixed couples of Ukrainian women married to American men.

Why is that?

The reasons are plenty. In many comments to Alina Rudya’s article [The People of Ukraine: Part 2 -- Women, Kyiv Post, March 12], both Ukrainian and Western men blame Slavic beauties for chasing the money. OK. Who doesn’t? Everybody wants better lives for themselves and their offspring. Let’s be honest. That includes the ability to buy better things and do more exciting stuff.

All women around the world prefer men who make more money, the same as our ancestors preferred Stone Age hunters who could kill more game to feed their families. Even if a girl in love marries a poor guy, she still sees some potential in him. Nobody goes into a lifelong union determined to stay poor forever.

Of course, there are gold diggers. Anna Nicole Smith, who married a Texas billionaire more than twice her age, probably has no Ukrainian blood. If you see an old rich guy marrying a beautiful woman 30 years younger, I would be cautious about believing that she is smitten by his personality, no matter her nationality.

All of the pairings between Ukrainian women and U.S. and European men that we know, including ourselves, developed their relationships typically: Sexual attraction, passion, love, doubts, periods of separation, deep friendship, etc. However, I also believe that there is something special that clicks in these relationships. It is vague and hard to measure. But it is definitely there.

First, I think that it is more acceptable for women to marry abroad than for men, the same way as our grandmothers married fellows and moved to other villages. When I studied at a U.S. university, I could see that girls from the former Soviet Union tended to pick up local trends much more easily than their male counterparts.

Second, modern Ukrainian society is a little weird when it comes to gender relations. There are traditional societies where women are less educated than men, do not make decisions regarding their own lives, seldom work outside the house, have many children and, as a result, are completely dependent on men. Somebody might insist that they are still treated with respect, but I say that they can be treated any way the men want. There are also Western societies where women are educated, have careers, make decisions regarding their own lives and tend to have fewer children. Women in those societies generally demand respect and equal treatment and normally get it.

The former Soviet Union countries fall somewhere in between. Our women do everything (and more) that Western women do, but often get the treatment like in traditional societies.

One good indicator of respect is how housework is shared. When I was in my mid-20s, I was living with a man in Kyiv for about a year. I was more advanced in my career, worked longer hours, made more money and financially contributed more to our household. At the same time, I was doing all the chores by myself. After we broke up, older women criticized me for letting this young man go. Because he didn’t drink, didn’t beat me and didn’t screw around, that was supposed to be good enough for me.

None of the factors is biological. They’re all cultural. I know many Ukrainian immigrants who have equal relations in their marriage with shared responsibilities and respect, the same as I have in my marriage. There are many “modern familiesâ€￾ between Ukrainians in Ukraine, but often these men in those families studied or lived abroad.

Third, there are simply not so many husband-quality men in Ukraine. There are more men in prisons or who are drug addicts and heavy drinkers. The economic problems in Ukraine make many men poor. It is more acceptable for men to marry down in terms of career and education.

As a result, well-educated and beautiful women who have their own careers are the most likely to end up single. Because those women spent time building their careers, they did not marry early, and by the age of 25, their chance of finding a decent match in Ukraine becomes slim. I have so many girlfriends of this description in their early 30s that it breaks my heart!

Fourth, as soon as men in Ukraine earn some decent money, having a lover becomes a status thing, next to having a flashy car, out-of-town house and vacations abroad. Of course, Western men also cheat, but it is not as widespread or as accepted.

At the end, it all comes down to children. When I was in my relationship in Kyiv, I wondered: If we have a child, how would it all work? Would I still have to do everything at home, earn money and take care of the child? How much help from him can I count on? What kind of an example would he would set for the child? Would he be able to provide for the family if I couldn’t work?

Now I do have a beautiful baby boy. My husband and I are working, busy and somewhat exhausted. But we work as a team. If I happen to lose a job, he would be able to support the three of us, and vice versa. Marriage is a partnership and everybody wants a reliable partner. This is not about chasing money. This is pursuit of happiness.


Tetiana Vorozhko, a native Ukrainian married to a U.S. citizen, lives in Vienna, Virginia. She has a master’s degree in journalism from Ohio University.



Notice how she says the older women criticized her for leaving her kiev boyfriend.
The women of here generation actually do leave their men more often.

The youngest generation (current 18-25 yo) are even less loyal.

I've met several generations of ukrainian women. The old generation (currently babushkas) was pure gold.
The ones who were available in the 1990s( currently 35-40 yo) was still pretty good.

The current 18-25 yo are just not worth it. I saw divorce in my future if I married one of them.

The time for Rus/Ukr women is past....its no longer the 90s.
Wishing for the past is a foolish endeavor....better to create happiness in the present.
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Postby djfourmoney » Sun May 25, 2014 8:18 am

So let me get this straight, you two are critical of this story because.

1) More and more women around the world are less dependent on men? She mentioned leaving a man who didn't abuse here; but he didn't contribute either, so she's the bad person for leaving him? Didn't she just say it's a partnership? She shouldn't have to pull all the weight.

My ex worked while I was at home running a business. She never complained, she didn't always have to come home and cook but she did. She wanted to eat too and despite being overweight she didn't like to eat out too much. When we lived in North Hollywood that was the case. When we moved to Lancaster however, we ate out more because by the time we got home it was well past 7PM.

I didn't force or even ask for her to cook, that's ridiculous.

2) See the first point. Women are looking for partnerships. They want equal division and equal treatment like Western women have and abuse on a daily basis.

The difference is Western women of Gen Y age are product of two income households were it's normal for women to be working outside the home and further normalized women being career focused, having their first child later and later (average age is 28 now and more women have had their first child by 33 has doubled since 1980)

To find the right women however, you can not use tactics from the 1970's since the women no longer adhere to 1970's thinking.

You can find good women ANYWHERE including here, but the odds are not in your favor. They are overseas, but you have to do it right. Do it wrong you'll end up divorced.
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Postby pandabear » Sun May 25, 2014 11:25 am

She seems to be Feminist. She is writing for the Kiev post: maybe she is trying to shame Ukrainian men into performing the housework. "See? My American husband was already trained!"
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Postby Wolfeye » Sun May 25, 2014 12:18 pm

See, me- I'd go for a woman like that. She does plenty & realizes that she should get treated better than basic for it. I figure it's good that a woman knows that someone should be appreciated in that type of case, since now when I'M outgoing & considerate she won't treat me like asshole. I've always said that good without bad is STILL GOOD. If you eat something that tastes good, it's not a sense of "Wow, that doesn't taste like shit"- it's its own sense. Same deal with eligible bachelors/bachelorettes. If a woman was built like, let's say: Vida Guerra, and she was someone that had a good personality- would it make you less attracted to her if there was hundreds of other women that were like that? No, it would just be that there's a bunch of women that are all very interesting. You'd just be with the particular woman you clicked with (and there IS the potential for there to be more that one woman that that's possible with) & that would be a relationship that still the two of you.
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Postby TopSpruce » Sun May 25, 2014 1:14 pm

djfourmoney wrote:So let me get this straight, you two are critical of this story because.

1) More and more women around the world are less dependent on men? She mentioned leaving a man who didn't abuse here; but he didn't contribute either, so she's the bad person for leaving him? Didn't she just say it's a partnership? She shouldn't have to pull all the weight.

My ex worked while I was at home running a business. She never complained, she didn't always have to come home and cook but she did. She wanted to eat too and despite being overweight she didn't like to eat out too much. When we lived in North Hollywood that was the case. When we moved to Lancaster however, we ate out more because by the time we got home it was well past 7PM.

I didn't force or even ask for her to cook, that's ridiculous.

2) See the first point. Women are looking for partnerships. They want equal division and equal treatment like Western women have and abuse on a daily basis.

The difference is Western women of Gen Y age are product of two income households were it's normal for women to be working outside the home and further normalized women being career focused, having their first child later and later (average age is 28 now and more women have had their first child by 33 has doubled since 1980)

To find the right women however, you can not use tactics from the 1970's since the women no longer adhere to 1970's thinking.

You can find good women ANYWHERE including here, but the odds are not in your favor. They are overseas, but you have to do it right. Do it wrong you'll end up divorced.


All I know is that Ukrainian wome in the older generations were much better. The ones available in th 90s were much higher quality people and more feminine. The 18-25 girls in Ukraine now are much worse.

If you absolutely need a white woman, Ukraine is your only option. However, be aware that todays girls are only marginally better than Western women and far inferior to the Ukrainian women of the 90s. All the stuff you read about high quality Russian and Ukrainian women applies to the girls of the 90s...it has much less to do with the women out there now. Perhaps there is some quality left in provincial Belarus....but good luck finding a decent job there. Without a decent job, you are no different from the locals and she will not want you. (Forget about taking her back with you to the west....the good ones will not leave their country and Western culture quickly ruins women).
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Postby jtest28 » Sun May 25, 2014 1:20 pm

wow, its too bad men can be so gullible. Da, ta, da, dahhh! Here i come to save the day!!!

LMAO
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Re: Ukraininian Girl POV

Postby Hero » Sun May 25, 2014 2:11 pm

TopSpruce wrote:Notice how she says the older women criticized her for leaving her kiev boyfriend.
The women of here generation actually do leave their men more often.

The youngest generation (current 18-25 yo) are even less loyal.

I've met several generations of ukrainian women. The old generation (currently babushkas) was pure gold.
The ones who were available in the 1990s( currently 35-40 yo) was still pretty good.

The current 18-25 yo are just not worth it. I saw divorce in my future if I married one of them.

The time for Rus/Ukr women is past....its no longer the 90s.
Wishing for the past is a foolish endeavor....better to create happiness in the present.


Agreed. I visited a Ukrainian lady in the Ukraine twice last year. Even when we were getting serious, she was still logging in to ukrainedate.com to try to find a better deal. And she was a 39-year-old single mom! She had absolutely no concept of loyalty.

I also agree that Slavic women have gone WAY downhill in the past 15 years. 13 years ago I could have had my pick of gorgeous young women who looked like movie stars and who would have worshipped the ground I walked on. But then, they changed, seemingly overnight, around the middle of 2002. What happened??
Ladislav told me the same thing regarding Ukrainian women; they'll fool you into thinking they love you, but there's a high probability that they'll cheat sooner or later.
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Postby TopSpruce » Sun May 25, 2014 3:08 pm

What happened? The economy stopped declining, too many sex tourists ruined the reputation of foreigners, and greater internet access spread negative views.

Economic growth leads to a decline in moral values.
Adversity breeds morality and good values. True happiness comes in a minimalist life with competition and adversity...like truly free markets.
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon May 26, 2014 3:39 am

TopSpruce wrote:
djfourmoney wrote:So let me get this straight, you two are critical of this story because.

1) More and more women around the world are less dependent on men? She mentioned leaving a man who didn't abuse here; but he didn't contribute either, so she's the bad person for leaving him? Didn't she just say it's a partnership? She shouldn't have to pull all the weight.

My ex worked while I was at home running a business. She never complained, she didn't always have to come home and cook but she did. She wanted to eat too and despite being overweight she didn't like to eat out too much. When we lived in North Hollywood that was the case. When we moved to Lancaster however, we ate out more because by the time we got home it was well past 7PM.

I didn't force or even ask for her to cook, that's ridiculous.

2) See the first point. Women are looking for partnerships. They want equal division and equal treatment like Western women have and abuse on a daily basis.

The difference is Western women of Gen Y age are product of two income households were it's normal for women to be working outside the home and further normalized women being career focused, having their first child later and later (average age is 28 now and more women have had their first child by 33 has doubled since 1980)

To find the right women however, you can not use tactics from the 1970's since the women no longer adhere to 1970's thinking.

You can find good women ANYWHERE including here, but the odds are not in your favor. They are overseas, but you have to do it right. Do it wrong you'll end up divorced.


All I know is that Ukrainian wome in the older generations were much better. The ones available in th 90s were much higher quality people and more feminine. The 18-25 girls in Ukraine now are much worse.

If you absolutely need a white woman, Ukraine is your only option. However, be aware that todays girls are only marginally better than Western women and far inferior to the Ukrainian women of the 90s. All the stuff you read about high quality Russian and Ukrainian women applies to the girls of the 90s...it has much less to do with the women out there now. Perhaps there is some quality left in provincial Belarus....but good luck finding a decent job there. Without a decent job, you are no different from the locals and she will not want you. (Forget about taking her back with you to the west....the good ones will not leave their country and Western culture quickly ruins women).


Overall I don't disagree.

Those women of marriageable ages available to the pioneers of this sort of thing are all in their 40's and 50's.

The majority of people that Mark has coached before and after he created his business are proof that their are still good women available in Ukraine. Ed who hasn't posted here in a long time has said Russia is a better place, but both have coaching that works and has a high success rate.

You have to unlearn everything you thought you knew about Western women and Western relationships. Until that happens, you will continue to make statements like only provincial women are worth the effort now. That's ridiculous and complete nonsense. In other words you are still working from a position of scarcity when it's impossible numerically and the constant fear mongering about feminism.

There are plenty of examples of people that reject extreme positions in feminism, bigotry and racism.

As I said if you do it wrong, you'll be in divorce court sooner rather than later.

Learn how there is no scarcity of good women, just too many men picking bad women and miss all the warning signs.
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Re: Ukraininian Girl POV

Postby djfourmoney » Mon May 26, 2014 3:47 am

Hero wrote:
TopSpruce wrote:Notice how she says the older women criticized her for leaving her kiev boyfriend.
The women of here generation actually do leave their men more often.

The youngest generation (current 18-25 yo) are even less loyal.

I've met several generations of ukrainian women. The old generation (currently babushkas) was pure gold.
The ones who were available in the 1990s( currently 35-40 yo) was still pretty good.

The current 18-25 yo are just not worth it. I saw divorce in my future if I married one of them.

The time for Rus/Ukr women is past....its no longer the 90s.
Wishing for the past is a foolish endeavor....better to create happiness in the present.


Agreed. I visited a Ukrainian lady in the Ukraine twice last year. Even when we were getting serious, she was still logging in to ukrainedate.com to try to find a better deal. And she was a 39-year-old single mom! She had absolutely no concept of loyalty.

I also agree that Slavic women have gone WAY downhill in the past 15 years. 13 years ago I could have had my pick of gorgeous young women who looked like movie stars and who would have worshipped the ground I walked on. But then, they changed, seemingly overnight, around the middle of 2002. What happened??
Ladislav told me the same thing regarding Ukrainian women; they'll fool you into thinking they love you, but there's a high probability that they'll cheat sooner or later.


I disagree your tactics have been proven to be faulty and will lead to failure.

If she was looking online still after you set foot in her country, that is your fault. Why? You didn't offer her whatever confidence/security she needed for her to stop looking.

In other words, you did a terrible job of selling yourself or at least positioning yourself as man she couldn't live without.

Single Mothers have to be screened just like women without children. Also what do you mean it started to get serious? She fu*ked you and was still looking online for a better deal?
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon May 26, 2014 4:42 am

TopSpruce wrote:What happened? The economy stopped declining, too many sex tourists ruined the reputation of foreigners, and greater internet access spread negative views.

Economic growth leads to a decline in moral values.
Adversity breeds morality and good values. True happiness comes in a minimalist life with competition and adversity...like truly free markets.


No such thing as a free market. There are markets with little government inference inside the Capitalism and Social-Democracies and functional well but certain things need to be free because nature and other forces can't be manipulated for very long without impacting your business. While other things need to be commons, they belong to the people. Weather you want to put individuals in charge or the Government if it wasn't corrupted involved is something I would be happy to discuss.

Sex Tourist have ruined dating pools/markets and they will continue to do so as long as those that fear of failure continue to force men stay on the sidelines until the water is deemed safe to enter. Men in America have lost their sense of adventure because humanity especially in 1st world countries is safer than ever and there's little need to make risky decisions.
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