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Response from savvy American woman - What do you think?

Discuss dating, relationships and foreign women.

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Response from savvy American woman - What do you think?

Postby Winston » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:43 am

Here is a response I received from a savvy American female. What do you think? Does she have any valid points?

"Dear Winston,

I stumbled across your article about the advantages of European women over American women this morning, and I found it very interesting. It actually really got me thinking.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am a young, bright, middle-class, degree-seeking, well-read and reasonably attractive American woman who has spent a good deal of time in Europe quite recently. Though I understand exactly what you are saying about the weight problems that plague American women and the superior European style of dress - what is true, is true - your post has three fatal errors: you fail to capture the essence of American women comparable to the ones you're describing in Europe, you have completely ignored the negative aspects of European culture and their impact on European women, and you have used blanket statements to refer to each group. If any of this were of any consequence whatsoever, perhaps I'd be a little bit offended, but it's not, so please accept what I'm saying as purely a way to get you to think of things from a slightly different perspective.

Please remember that American women come from a variety of socio-economic and racial backgrounds. Young, impoverished African American women in the Southeast, for example, are dramatically different from their white-bread, upper-class counterparts who were born and raised in the Hills and summer in the Hamptons. Their night-and-day experiences have shaped who they are, and there are simply too many kinds of American women to use words like "most" or
"generally" so cavalierly. My personal favorite of these generalizing statements:

"While I do not wish to focus on appearance or dress style (the world is shallow enough as it is), my primary complaints and beef against American women are that they are 1) unapproachable, anti-social, and cliquish toward strangers, and 2) lack depth, substance, and culture, making it difficult to connect with them, find common ground or chemistry."

Let's be real here, for a second. You grew up in California (from what I gathered?). No wonder you're happier abroad. Every time my mother turns on Sunset Tan or Real Housewives of Orange County (don't judge my mother for liking reality TV!:) I throw up a little bit in my mouth. I would want to leave, too. California, especially the L.A. and a couple of the other major metropolitan areas, is in no way representative of the rest of the United States. Perhaps I'm not giving you enough credit - maybe you have spent solid time in other parts of the U.S. and have experience dealing with women from all over. I somehow doubt this is true, however, because I am very well acquainted with many, many women who are kind, friendly, intelligent, cultured, and would make great friends, girlfriends, or wives. So unless these women exist only in my immediate area, which I also doubt, great American women - comparable to the thin, beautiful, cultured European women you refer to - are everywhere. It's not acceptable to generalize American women as rude, shallow, unsophisticated, uneducated, and fat, and if you stick to that belief than your article is merely a tribute to your ignorance. This whole passively mysogynistic attitude is a huge turn-off to women, regardless of where they come from.

Let's not forget about the ladies across the pond! I am curious to know if you have had a chance to spend some time in Colmar, France, or any small city in Europe. In Colmar, the natives know French, German, and often a bit of English and Italian. The sip their menthe diablos at picturesque little cafes while some waiter ignores them for their entire two-hour lunch break, and they buy their bread and meats at separate specialty markets. But these things are consistent with European culture - things are different in America. Period. Many of those women know three different languages out of necessity and because it was required by their country's educational system. I elected to learn French and German, and next year, I will learn Russian. I work hard to pay for my higher education - until recently, Germans (perhaps the most elitist of them all) had their diplomas handed to them after completing course work virtually free of charge. There are positives and negatives to every culture. Whatever. That doesn't mean the women are better in Europe, as you've implied, it means your experiences there have been more satisfying on some level.

In closing, I will also tell you that I lived in Kyiv, Ukraine for a month last summer and spent a lot of time with female Ukrainian students while I was there. While they are naturally beautiful women, they dress incredibly provocatively because they feel most loved when men pay attention to them. Here's what's sick: the women feel loved on an emotional level when men show interest in them in a purely physiological way. I know a lot of Ukrainian women like this (although, as a woman I can spot these needy behaviors in other women from a thousand miles away, and I can tell you this silent desperation to be loved is in no way exclusive to Ukraine or Eastern Europe) and my heart breaks for them. I share this with you so that you'll consider the fact that maybe European women really are just as screwed up as American women - only in different ways. The diminishing population and staggering AIDS, abortion, and suicide rates in Russia indicate pretty clearly that the state of the female population over there is not good.


In mild frustration,
<name>"
Last edited by Winston on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby KristineTheStrawberryGirl » Fri May 02, 2008 5:08 am

She has valid points, and in many ways has pointed out many of the collective scotomas of the most recent anti-American movement/critics of America. I too have noticed that such discussion tends to be from a coastal point of view. The middle American perspective is missing, and also the bilingual point of view is missing. Often a bilingual can think in another language and understand the parochial aspect of another culture, and not just the cosmopolitan culture, which tends to be represented to most expats (including those who pride themselves on visiting the smaller villages). Hence, we are less likely to have such romantic ideas about other cultures, and more of a grasp about what might be positive about America.

When dialogue or discussion is based on experience, there are always perceptual blind spots, because everyone sees different things, and has not seen every possibility. That's why discussions based on experience often are more constructive when people don't try to be too black and white or fundamentalist.

I used to really like to point out such scotomas as well, but these days I find it exhausting. I can point to something, but I can't make people look or see. Don't get me wrong ... it often leads to interesting discussion, but it is laboring. If I can think in a different language, there are allot of things that I can perceive. However, it's difficult enough to translate the language, let alone translate the perceptions ...
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Postby Enishi » Fri May 02, 2008 6:34 pm

Some of it does indeed come down to the area of the country one is in. I encountered more kind and polite (though not necessarily cultured) women during a trip down to the South.

However, I still notice a tendency in arguments such as these of pointing to the particular and ignoring the general. Unless someone treats a generalization as an absolute category, it still has validity. In some areas of the country, even if there are pockets of decent women, the amount of effort needed to find them may be more than its worth, while traveling to other countries is a quicker approach.
Last edited by Enishi on Sun May 04, 2008 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jamesbond » Sat May 03, 2008 12:13 pm

Enishi wrote:Some of it does indeed come down to the area of the country one is in. I encountered more kind and polite (though not necessarily cultured) during a trip down to the South.

However, I still notice a tendency in arguements such as these of pointing to the particular and ignoring the general. Unless someone treats a generalization as an absolute category, it still has validity. In some areas of the country, even if there are pockets of decent women, the amount of effort needed to find them may be more than its worth, while traveling to other countries is a quicker approach.


Indeed the people in the south do tend to be more polite and friendly and sociable. However, it is still easier to meet single women in a country like the Ukraine where single women outnumber single men by a wide margin.
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Postby KristineTheStrawberryGirl » Sat May 03, 2008 5:43 pm

I agree 100% that it is more than likely not worth your time to try to find the needle in the haystack in terms of dating in America.

However, I think that we do get a more 3 dimensional understanding of what is actually wrong and are more likely to consider solutions when we are able to consider other possible explanations.

For me, I see this as being more relevant for lifestyle, education or standard of living issues in the United States in the long-term/big picture. When it comes to dating in America, by all means, I think life is too short to wait for a solution for your own personal situation. If you can find someone more suitable for you abroad with less trouble, then that is what you should do.
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Postby Jackal » Sun May 04, 2008 12:21 am

I've been posting on very strict Buddhist forums lately, so it's good to return here to speak frankly about b***y.

I agree with this girl that there are some nice, non-fat women in American who might be willing to date some of us, but they are difficult to find.

However, there is nothing wrong with women who like to dress in a sexy way to please men. The fact that the girl who wrote this email feels this way shows that she is part of the problem here in America. It's nice when foreign women actually care what men think, and don't just have the American girl attitude of "Out of my way, asshole. I'm hot and you're not--and don't even think of staring at my ass after I walk by or I'll look back with a disgusted grimace."

There's no point in having candy around if you aren't allowed to taste it.

P.S. There are also friendly people in certain inland parts of northern New England. Snobby people tend to cluster along the coastline and in certain parts of cities. A have met a few sweet girls in these regions but they were kind of boring and had no international experience.
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Postby Enishi » Sun May 04, 2008 1:03 am

I've been posting on very strict Buddhist forums lately, so it's good to return here to speak frankly about b***y.


LOL!
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Postby KristineTheStrawberryGirl » Tue May 06, 2008 5:01 am

Jackal wrote:However, there is nothing wrong with women who like to dress in a sexy way to please men.


I actually do not understand why any beautiful young woman would not want to dress sexy (at least on on occasion). It's a pleasure to be a beautiful woman who pleases men by looking good and making their day.

I think that sometimes in America, there is so much propaganda that it is too vain or slutty for a woman to care for her appearance. As a result, you either have one extreme of women who wear boxy t-shirts, baggy pants and no make-up, or women with oversized breast jobs, showcasing the gravity defiance of their lower poles in a cut-off tank top .. OK .. maybe that is more of a 1980's David Lee Roth video, but you get what I mean! :wink:

OK ... I was not actually looking at James Bond's avitar when I wrote that description, but I just noticed the impressive lower poles! LOL!
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Postby Winston » Tue May 06, 2008 3:42 pm

Here is my response letter to the girl who wrote that letter to me:

"Hi Meredith,
Thanks for your letter. Sorry for the delay in my reply. I was very busy with things here in the Philippines.

I don't often get letters from American women, but the few that I do get are constructive or supportive. How did you find my website or article?

You have to understand that my article is not a sociological report of US females or European females. It's about MY experiences and how approachable women are in different countries. The fact is that I find US women the least approachable in the world. You know how US culture is, people limit their social interaction within cliques, are not inclusive (except in a church) and that's their comfort zone. I've never been good at fitting into cliques.

Plus US women do not generally like foreign men. Unless they are British or Australian of course. This was discussed on Yahoo Answers and in my forum too. Take a look:

http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=189

Also add to the fact that Asian males are the least desirable in America to American females. Everyone knows this. It's an unspoken fact but very observable. Look at the ads of American girls on match.com and you will see that most prefer white guys, and the rest prefer blacks or hispanics. Very few like asians.

I got ten things going against me in the US in the dating field. Here they are:

http://www.happierabroad.com/ebook/Page73.htm

Yes I grew up in California, which is known to be fake and superficial, even by the rest of America. Where did you grow up?

But many of the guys on my list and forum are saying that it's not much better in the rest of the country either. And they come from different states. I have found southern women to be more warm and sociable. But either way, getting dates with beautiful women in the states does NOT feel natural, smooth, like it's part of the flow of things. Instead, it feels like I'm trying to make something happen that doesn't want to happen. Ick!

You say you know many nice American women. Sure, but if I met them and asked them out, they'd ALWAYS come up with excuses one way or another. Or they'd screen out their calls. We've all experienced it thousands of times. How come here in the Philippines women have no problem making time to be with me and don't make excuses when I want to spend time with them?

American women and white women in general do not have the tender touch and warmth that the Filipinas here do. There isn't this natural comfortable comfort zone that I experience here.

About your experience in Ukraine, I see that as positive, not negative. Most women in most countries need men and feel incomplete without them. I'd prefer a female that needs me than one who doesn't give a shit about me and can drop me like used clothes. I don't feel like a man around women who don't need me. It's not satisfying or fulfilling at all.

Are you with the feminist man hating movement in America? If not, what do you think of them?

Do you mind if I share your letter below in my forum? And also add it to my reader responses section of my site?

Thanks,
Winston
www.happierabroad.com"
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Postby msarah16 » Wed May 07, 2008 9:45 am

After I wrote this email and didn't hear back for awhile, I figured nothing ever came of it, but the responses have been a good read. I was particularly fond of the following statement:

However, there is nothing wrong with women who like to dress in a sexy way to please men. The fact that the girl who wrote this email feels this way shows that she is part of the problem here in America. It's nice when foreign women actually care what men think, and don't just have the American girl attitude of "Out of my way, asshole. I'm hot and you're not--and don't even think of staring at my ass after I walk by or I'll look back with a disgusted grimace."


I can’t really put my finger on the most stunning part of this paragraph. To begin with, you’re taking this so-called “American girl attitudeâ€￾ and attributing it to all of twenty- and thirty-something women out there. There are millions of women in this country, all of them different, and to describe a majority of them with blanket statements is ridiculous and evidence of an astoundingly narrow worldview. I think it’s very likely that for every one similarly dissatisfied man in this country, there is an equally bitter and dissatisfied woman. To bottom-line it for you, you’re an idiot if you think this “problem in Americaâ€￾ is one-sided. I don’t think you are an idiot, however, so bear with me.

I’d venture to say there isn’t a single woman alive who dresses to “pleaseâ€￾ men. This isn’t just about men, it’s also about the women who are wearing the clothes. It’s nice to receive attention from men because of the way you dress sometimes, but I don’t wear “sexyâ€￾ (definitions vary) clothes for the exclusive pleasure of some guy in class or at a restaurant. Wearing sexy clothes makes women feel sexy, desirable, attractive, feminine, and ultimately, worthy of male attention. As a woman, this vulnerability is often a hard reality to face, but I personally enjoy it when a guy thinks I’m pretty – because it makes me feel good. There’s something in it for us, almost without exception.

My original point was that many young women in Ukraine dress extremely provocatively because the attention they get from men makes them feel loved. Many American women dress provocatively also, but there are significant cultural and social differences which make the situation there a bit more complicated. There is a certain desire to be desired that is characteristic of the nature of women, and while there is nothing inherently bad about this, differences between the two sexes can make it a dangerous thing. With the understanding that the part of the brain that controls emotion is more sophisticated in women, it’s true that dating and sex have very different emotional implications for women than they do for men. I’ve witnessed and experienced this first hand. For a particular friend in Ukraine, the admiration she receives from her boyfriend when they sleep together translates into love, even though it’s clear that he’s primarily interested in her for company and sex. (Let me clarify here that while there are certain physiological commonalities between all women and all men, everyone’s experience is different.)

That’s what it comes down to. Experience. I understand that some people feel the dating scene in the states is pretty dismal, I sympathize. And I can't argue with an individual's account of their experience with American women, but I’m sorry it’s been negative for some. But speaking in such strong absolutes about the character of a group of people with such natural variety is not an awesome way to go about making a counterpoint. As a pretty normal American woman with tons of amazing female American friends, I find it pretty insulting to be grouped in with these women, which is essentially what’s been done. The original email was simply a way of expressing my frustration about an article posted on the website – clarifying that these were your perceptions might be the way to go next time. I’m just sayin’.

The issue here isn’t one about American women, it’s about women in general. Some of the posts suggest two things: a general lack of understanding of and appreciation for women, and a faulty way of approaching the dating scene. I mean, “There’s no point in having candy around if you’re not allowed to taste itâ€￾? Come on, give me a break. I’d probably walk away from you too if I got vibes like that, and I'm not the kind of girl you described earlier. Gain a touch of insight, abandon that defeatist attitude, and be proactive about the situation!
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Postby msarah16 » Wed May 07, 2008 10:10 am

Winston - I will write you a a longer email soon in response to your post, but for now...

I think women are of great value, so it hurts to see other women affected negatively by cultural expectations of them. But I can assure you, I am in no way a feminist! I think feminism has been a major step back for modern women - it has robbed us of our femininity by blurring gender lines, and is essentially turning men into women, I'm convinced. There is a lot more to all of that, of course.

Just to clarify, I absolutely do not hate men! The opposite it true. It is just a bit frustrating sometimes to read things that serve to generalize women and/or tear women down.

Will be in touch with some constructivecriticism for you soon!
Meredith
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Postby Jackal » Wed May 07, 2008 8:16 pm

msarah16,

You can't put your finger on what's wrong with the paragraph because my thoughts aren't restricted by any of the feminist axioms that serve as the foundation of your universe. Also, I'm saying exactly what I think, which isn't very American either.

You're aggression does indeed sound very feminist to me. I think you'll be much happier in America than you would be overseas in more traditional, less feminist countries. As a woman in America you have more rights to preach your views here than in many other countries.

Europeans can't stand when American women try to preach to them about how they should change, how their culture isn't empowering women enough, how their women supposedly don't have enough self-esteem, etc. You make it sound as if treating women as sex objects is as bad as dumping toxic waste in the ocean or something.

In any case, I think the point is that the very things that you dislike about foreign women might make most American men like them. You're entitled to your opinions, but I don't think you're going to convert most of the men here to your views. Most of us here are probably not going to say, "Oh gee, I never thought of it that way. Now I'll renounce foreign women and realize that American women are superior."

You talk exactly the way you've been conditioned to talk by the college admissions system. You expect people to respond like admissions officers and say, "Oh, what a bright, confident, young woman--that's marvelous!" But sometimes being so forceful turns men off. It's not that men can't deal with strong women; it's just that we often don't find them sexy.

I far as I know, you might be as sweet as peaches if you turn down your feminist aggression a few notches. Meditate, do some yoga, try to strip away some of the conditioned behaviors that American culture has imposed on you and you might free yourself yet.

Note: I agree that the posts on this forum contain a lot of unproven generalities, but nobody here is a real social scientist and this is often how casual posts turn out because many people come to forums to vent about their own limited, personal experiences. So please try to keep this in mind when you read them.
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Postby msarah16 » Thu May 08, 2008 9:35 am

To begin with, contrary to what you may think, I don’t spend my time searching the internet for men to crusade against, but I happened to stumble upon something that is clearly so one-sided and unfair that I felt like writing an email while I had some time to kill.

"While I do not wish to focus on appearance or dress style (the world is shallow enough as it is), my primary complaints and beef against American women are that they are 1) unapproachable, anti-social, and cliquish toward strangers, and 2) lack depth, substance, and culture, making it difficult to connect with them, find common ground or chemistry."

I wrote him originally not to create some sort of back-and-forth, but to get him to look at it from a different perspective for a moment, whether he agrees with what I’m saying or not. I completely agree with you that it’s about a person’s own limited, personal experience, but I don’t particularly appreciate being deemed shallow, cliquish, and uncultured by someone who doesn’t know me. (Before you go there, saying it doesn’t really matter because it’s his opinion is unnecessary, because the entire forum is unnecessary – it’s a forum, who cares. We’ll all say what we want.)

My goal is not to convert you or anyone else from European women to American women. To be honest, I don’t really care. If you’ll please reread the last two paragraphs of my email, I think you’ll notice that my entire point was that European women are neither inferior nor superior to American women, and that both scenes have their advantages and disadvantages. The example about women in Ukraine was given after conceding certain points about American women, and the truth is, the way many young Ukrainian women dress is evidence of a larger cultural crisis, hence the high AIDS, abortion, and infertility rates in Ukraine and the alarming decrease in population. You call it dressing sexy to please men, I call it a pretty face covering an ugly problem. In fact, if you’ll reread the entire email I sent, I think much of what you’re saying about where I’m coming loses its validity.

I don’t really get this whole thing about American women telling European women how they should change. I don’t doubt that it happens, but I have pretty close friends who have never expressed such a thing to me before, and if they did, it certainly wouldn’t be about empowerment and self-esteem. In fact, the entire suggestion that Europe is less “feministâ€￾ and more traditional is inaccurate – Western Europe is one of the most, if not the most, sexually liberated places in the world, and this is a reflection of a far more liberal culture than what we have here in the States. This hardly translates into traditional. No wonder American men like them.

For your own good, you may want to familiarize yourself with feminist beliefs before you use the term so liberally. It’s not an accurate way to describe me – antifeminist, in fact, is more accurate – and what I ultimately care about is that women are treated like people above sex objects, with a certain measure of respect, which really doesn’t seem to be an area you’re particularly strong in. As far as the comments pertaining to how I’ve been conditioned by American culture and college admissions boards? Based on your last post, I’m not especially convinced that your understanding of American culture is so thorough that you can make such a deeply profound statement, and the college admissions board bit doesn’t even really make sense.

Note: I didn't say I couldn't put my finger on what's wrong with the first paragraph. I think it's all crap.
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Postby KristineTheStrawberryGirl » Fri May 09, 2008 4:45 am

msarah16 wrote:The example about women in Ukraine was given after conceding certain points about American women, and the truth is, the way many young Ukrainian women dress is evidence of a larger cultural crisis, hence the high AIDS, abortion, and infertility rates in Ukraine and the alarming decrease in population. You call it dressing sexy to please men, I call it a pretty face covering an ugly problem.


Perhaps it may seem feasible to make this inference about Ukraine, because the economy and situation are very poor at this time, and getting worse in some ways. However, how would you explain the way women of the Russian Federation look and dress? The economy is booming there, and the country is doing very well. Flat income tax rate, good resources, business is booming and incentives for population increase via married couples are effectively in place. Yet Russian women dress as sexy as ever and look even better because they have more money to buy nicer clothes, make-up and get cosmetic procedures. In fact, some places in Western Ukraine, where the situation is horrible, you see more conservative and rugged country girls turning to the baptist/pentecostal church. Plus, during the worst of totalitarian times/Stalin era, women were very care worn and cared less for their looks in comparison to other generations of Russian women. However bad it is now in Ukraine, it's not even close to as bad as Soviet Totalitarianism. It is also true that Russian American women, like myself, and Russian or Ukrainian women who come to America often continue their fashions in America. Hence, I respectfully disagree that Russian girls like to dress sexy (as long as we are young and pretty) just because we are poor/desperate. I think there is something else ...
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Postby msarah16 » Fri May 09, 2008 4:59 am

If I'm not mistaken, Russia still has terrible issues with AIDS, abortion, and infertility (often a result of abortion) - whether or not they're improving, I'm not sure. I'm only suggesting the way Ukrainian/Russian women dress can be linked to these things, but not these things alone. Hope that clarifies.
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