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Response from savvy American woman - What do you think?

Discuss dating, relationships and foreign women.

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Postby KristineTheStrawberryGirl » Fri May 09, 2008 6:14 am

msarah16 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Russia still has terrible issues with AIDS, abortion, and infertility (often a result of abortion) - whether or not they're improving, I'm not sure. I'm only suggesting the way Ukrainian/Russian women dress can be linked to these things, but not these things alone. Hope that clarifies.


To say that "the situation in the Russian Federation is improving" is a massive understatement. Just to give you an idea, very few Russians are trying to come to the United States right now. Ukrainians are still coming, but many are disappointed and go back. Western Ukrainians are coming in droves, but the most educated and cosmopolitan types are going straight back to Ukraine to wait for better times. Many of the young professionals from Europe do not like the fast paced and excessively long hours of American workplaces. They see little use of having nice things when you have no time to enjoy. The only Russians who usually come here are the noviy ruskiye (new Russians), who have business or educational opportunities, and they have no plans to stay. Some of the young women find American husbands and stay, but most of the others go back to Russia despite opportunities to stay. Quite a few Americans are actually moving to Russia to start businesses, because Russia is doing THAT well. It's not just "improving."

The only thing to complain about are restaurants, as very few Russians are good restauranteurs. They tend to eat at home, and their palates are programed to love everything made at home, even if it's crap and often will dislike something from a 5 star place. Plus, there is the issue that they have difficulty managing food in their own kitchens/grocery stores, often use stale or expired food, and do not know how to short-cut the specialties (which take 3 women spending hours) the way the Chinese do. Other than that, the standard of living in many places in the Russian Federation is pretty good.

In fact, the Moscow standard of living may have surpassed certain places in middle-America. If I had to decide between moving to Moscow, Detroit, MI; Pittsburgh, PA or Youngstown, OH; I'd go to Moscow. You may not realize just how much the standard of living in America has declined. Last time I checked, we were number 12, and if we only considered middle America, it might be worse.

The aids problem is mainly in Kaliningrad due to the heroin epidemic and use of dirty needles. It's not because of hookers or promiscuous sex.

Also ... Something to keep in mind on these types forums is that it is difficult NOT to make blanket statements when you have uncensored and experience based discussion. It's not politically correct, it's not a quantitative report, and it may be best to take certain remarks with a grain of salt. Sometimes politically incorrect and very unscientific discussion lead good insight. Most of us are having more of a casual, but well-reasoned experience based discussion, which we occasionally enhance with statistics or research. It's entertainment, it's venting, it's networking, it's intelligent, but it's not science.
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Postby Winston » Fri May 09, 2008 2:30 pm

msarah16 wrote:Winston - I will write you a a longer email soon in response to your post, but for now...

I think women are of great value, so it hurts to see other women affected negatively by cultural expectations of them. But I can assure you, I am in no way a feminist! I think feminism has been a major step back for modern women - it has robbed us of our femininity by blurring gender lines, and is essentially turning men into women, I'm convinced. There is a lot more to all of that, of course.

Just to clarify, I absolutely do not hate men! The opposite it true. It is just a bit frustrating sometimes to read things that serve to generalize women and/or tear women down.

Will be in touch with some constructivecriticism for you soon!
Meredith


W: Hi Meredith! Glad to see you post here. We need to hear more opposing view points from different sides for sure! I appreciate you taking the time to share.

I don't think generalizing is the issue here though, it's about patterns. Patterns exist and there are many negative patterns I see in the US regarding social relationships and romantic relationships all the time. I was completely ostracized from having a life in the US because of it.

You say you dislike feminism because it turns men into women. Good point. What about the fact that it turns *some* women into men or man haters?

To get a better understanding of where I'm coming from, please read my "10 Reasons Why I'm Forced To Look For Love Abroad" essay here:

http://www.happierabroad.com/ebook/Page73.htm

BTW, when you compose your long response to me that you're talking about, feel free to post it in the forum, so all of us can benefit from your perspective.

Hope you don't mind that I shared your letter here. Your letter sounded interesting and you sounded educated, so I wanted to show a different viewpoint here. And sorry that I didn't respond to your letter for a long time.

Thanks,
Winston
Last edited by Winston on Fri May 09, 2008 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Winston » Fri May 09, 2008 2:47 pm

msarah16 wrote:

I don’t really get this whole thing about American women telling European women how they should change. I don’t doubt that it happens, but I have pretty close friends who have never expressed such a thing to me before, and if they did, it certainly wouldn’t be about empowerment and self-esteem. In fact, the entire suggestion that Europe is less “feministâ€￾ and more traditional is inaccurate – Western Europe is one of the most, if not the most, sexually liberated places in the world, and this is a reflection of a far more liberal culture than what we have here in the States. This hardly translates into traditional. No wonder American men like them.


W: I don't think being feminist and being sexually liberated are the same thing. European women still wear skirts and high heels for instance, cause it's sexy and feminine. How come American suburban women don't? They only do in big cities like NYC.

I don't think that Western European women are feminist because they are not man haters, do not bash men, and do not think that "all men are creeps", etc. (some German guys claim that about their women though) and do act horrified when a guy wants sex.

Why is it that you don't need "social skills" with European women? Conversation flows smoothly and naturally with them, as though you've known them for a long time. You don't have to act fake.

And how come trying to meet people in Europe feels like it's part of the natural order and harmony of things, rather than trying to make something happen that doesn't want to happen like in the states?

You told me you weren't from California, so what state are you from?

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't think that not being feminist means you are a traditional old fashioned woman. I don't need a traditional woman. Just one that's not a feminist and hates men and acts like she is superior to men. Approachability is my big thing. But as I said, in the states, people don't usually talk to strangers unless it's business related, so you are only allowed to meet people through mutual friends, including women. That's what sucks.

Do you deny, Meredith, that most women in the US do not socialize with people outside their clique? Men are much more likely to, but young women, no way, far less likely.

How come talk show hosts like Delilah and Ricky Lake always emphasize that men need to LISTEN (aka "obey") their women, but they never say the reverse?

How come on Dr. Phil, he takes the woman's side 99 percent of the time?

Doesn't something smell rotten about that to you?
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Postby momopi » Fri May 09, 2008 9:57 pm

WWu777 wrote:How come on Dr. Phil, he takes the woman's side 99 percent of the time?
Doesn't something smell rotten about that to you?


There's nothing rotten about it. If his show was day time TV, then the intended audience is stay at home mom's. The only smell is the smell of money rolling into his coffers.
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Postby Jackal » Sat May 10, 2008 8:33 pm

My point simply was that the very qualities that make women succeed in business and academia in America, often are qualities that American men find unattractive. It's nice to meet European women who aren't so obnoxious and aggressive, even if they have a few advanced degrees.

Feminist ideas are implicitly valued in business and academia in America. Men can get fired for the most ridiculously minor actions which are deemed "sexual harrassment." And in college, students will most likely get a good grade for expressing feminist viewpoints in a research paper, however if they express views contrary to the prevailing feminist ideology they are more likely to encounter serious resistance. Try writing an essay in a college application which opposes feminism and see where it gets you.

Feminist ideals have become so deeply ingrained in American culture that people hardly think about them anymore, the same way that we don't think about driving on the right side of the road--it's just how things are done here.

Both Winston and I had a tough time growing up in American culture because America is such a conformist country and little deviation from the norm is tolerated.

American women don't exactly have a clean bill of health when it comes to STDs either. In case you missed it, there was a story a few months ago which said that 1 in 4 teen girls in the US have STDs.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditio ... index.html

Being a "nice American girl" isn't any magic shield against STDs. Some Eastern European countries like the Czech Republic have far lower rates of AIDS than the US.
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Postby Jackal » Sat May 10, 2008 9:06 pm

KristineTheStrawberryGirl wrote:
Jackal wrote:However, there is nothing wrong with women who like to dress in a sexy way to please men.


I actually do not understand why any beautiful young woman would not want to dress sexy (at least on on occasion). It's a pleasure to be a beautiful woman who pleases men by looking good and making their day.

I think that sometimes in America, there is so much propaganda that it is too vain or slutty for a woman to care for her appearance. As a result, you either have one extreme of women who wear boxy t-shirts, baggy pants and no make-up, or women with oversized breast jobs, showcasing the gravity defiance of their lower poles in a cut-off tank top .. OK .. maybe that is more of a 1980's David Lee Roth video, but you get what I mean! :wink:

OK ... I was not actually looking at James Bond's avitar when I wrote that description, but I just noticed the impressive lower poles! LOL!


Thank you, Kristine. You and the other Kristy always add the touch of a true lady to the forum.

I agree with you that dressing sexy can be overdone, except maybe at beaches and stripclubs. Lol. I admit that I'm not crazy about the current women's fashions in America right now. All the low-rise pants get old after a while, and I'd much prefer to see short skirts and dresses with tantalizing glimpses of cleavage.

I don't think the amount of flesh women show is really the issue. The issue is the attitude of the woman who's wearing the outfit. I don't doubt that American women dress sexy mostly for themselves as Msarah suggests, and this is a very feminist attitude ("I'm so empowered. I don't need men. All I need is an MBA and a vibrator"). I remember seeing a skit in "The Vagina Monologues" about exactly this. It involved a young woman up on stage in a miniskirt proclaiming the injustice of men approaching women sexually who are wearing sexy outfits. My opinion is, "Don't put up the sign, if you don't want the business."

Sure, American women enjoy it when men they are interested in take notice of them, but they are often singularly rude to everybody else. At least the European girls I've met are kinder to men they aren't willing to date at the moment. European girls aren't so shocked to be approached by someone outside their clique.

American women should think long and hard about the feminist assumptions they've internalized without realizing it, and if they're very attached to these assumptions, they will most likely be happiest by remaining in America.
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Postby msarah16 » Sun May 11, 2008 8:17 am

Winston, I agree with you that "feminist" and "liberated" have two different meanings. That was a poor choice of words. I essentially intended to say European women (on the whole) are far less traditional and conservative that most American women. This seems to be a common complaint.

I appreciate the information on the state of Russia - that part of the world is very close to my heart and I'm glad to hear things are improving. (Well, not just improving, I guess:). But the social issues I mentioned, which weren’t really addressed, and that’s ok, must naturally have an extraordinarily negative effect on Russian/Ukrainian society. If approximately 1.6 per 100 people are walking around with HIV in Ukraine (only a little less in Russia) and there are 13 aborted pregnancies per 10 live births in Russia, somethin just ain’t right, I don’t care how much the economy is growing. These are only the reported figures.

Winston, I don’t really have answers to the questions you’ve posed. I think my responses would be futile, honestly. You have one way of seeing the world, I have another – we both need to keep in mind that our personal perceptions are probably a far cry from the reality of the situation, since they are so heavily influenced by our own circumstances and experiences. As far as your question about my opinion about feminism is concerned, I think it’s detrimental to both sexes. It blurs gender roles so much that it robs men of their masculinity and, equally as harmful, women of their femininity.

I agree that there are certain attitudes that some American women, and some men, for that matter, that are reminiscent of feminist ideologies, but feminism itself has very real and established principles that deserve to be glanced over at one’s earliest convenience. It’s just not accurate to just say someone’s a feminist for this reason or that. There are qualifications for that title. Conservative I’ll give you, but feminist – I’ll die before I concede that one!!

Jackal, I would ask that you understand that just because I feel particularly strongly about something and have made that known on an internet forum, does not mean that I’m this “typeâ€￾ of American woman that’s been discussed ad nauseum. It’s a bit discouraging to be deemed one of those girls who contributes to this “problemâ€￾ in America or a feminist, when this is absolutely not who I am, nor is it what I stand for. I’ve refrained from judging you when it would be the easiest thing in the world to do, in light of our opposing viewpoints, so please afford me the same. I think who I am in real life and the reality of my situation would surprise you a little bit.

I mean, if I were a feminist, don’t you think I’d be more than willing to admit it, blame you all for the fact that my tip percentage at work was only 21% tonight, and threaten to find and castrate you for the centuries of hardship you’ve put my sex through?! They thrive off that crap.

(Whoa, are the roles reversing or what…now some bra burner is going to call me down for making blanket statements.)
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Postby Jackal » Sun May 11, 2008 10:09 am

Msarah,

If don't want to be labeled a feminist then why don't you show some empathy for men as well? To me this is the fundamental point of equality. Women can't be equal and special at the same time. If women want men to respect their feelings, then they should do the same for men and not always expect men to concede first.

If you knew what life was like for many men in America you would be horrified (or perhaps not; you seem very callous so far). Women get to call all the shots in American dating culture. Feminists never cease telling men what they're doing wrong and how they should improve.

Your tone tells me that you've already judged me, but have just refrained from writing it. The end of your last post seemed like more than a Freudian slip. Your anger doesn't exactly make you sound like a sweet girl who is the opposite of all the stereotypes.

Feminism isn't always an all or nothing affiliation. A person can incorporate small aspects of feminism into their belief system while hardly being aware of it. Do you deny that feminism has influenced American culture?

Perhaps it might be wrong to call you a feminist according to one definition of the word, but you don't exactly sound like the opposite either. Your stance seems to be that we should be grateful that you are not an extreme feminist. This is more of a threat than a way to win our hearts. The men on this site have had enough of compromising with American women.

Anyway, what did you expect when you asked for criticism? You don't seem to want any criticism unless it's directed at foreign women or American men. Don't ask for criticism if you dismiss any viewpoints that don't agree with your own. Our realities aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, you know.

You seem to display the typical condescending attitude towards men which is characteristic of many American women (not all of whom are feminists). Your posts are just more of the same. If you said something different, I would think differently about you. I never pretended to know everything about you. I only see what you write.
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Postby msarah16 » Sun May 11, 2008 7:43 pm

Jackal,

I show plenty of empathy for men – just not when men transfer blame and responsibility for their personal plights on other people. This is precisely the problem I have with feminism. Women who blame men are just as bad as men who blame women, which sounds a lot to me like what’s going on here.

I’m sorry you’ve had such an awful experience with American women, and I don’t doubt that women contribute significantly to the problem, but if you think for a second that men alone suffer on this scene, you are absolutely wrong. What a tragic irony, that this very man-hating mentality associated with feminism (and American women in general, apparently) is the very thing you and others on this site demonstrate towards women.

I believe I conceded in the last post that there are some elements of feminist thought that have penetrated our culture. But give me an example of a single Western culture where this isn’t true. In a world where women can vote and attend universities, feminism is bound to exist. But this isn’t the aspect of feminism we’ve been discussing. There is a very clear difference between attacking men and wanting equal wages for the same job position. (This, by the way, often happens in neither America nor Europe, necessitating action to correct this sort of injustice. But this doesn’t have to come at the expense of men at large.)

This stereotypical feminist attitude cannot always be linked to measures taken to prevent discrimination – discrimination that is proven, not someone’s opinion. Do I want to be paid the same thing as a man in the same position I have at work? Absolutely. But am I going to blame him or men in general if I’m not? Absolutely not, because this isn’t fair or productive in any way.

To say that women can’t be special and equal simultaneously goes against everything you’ve said from square one. Is a woman’s femininity not what makes her special? Do you not value this uniquely female softness and submissiveness? Can a woman not be feminine and equal at the same time?

I suspect you’re not accustomed to interacting with women whose thoughts are clearly articulated and fundamentally opposed to your own. I would probably be irritated too if I were in your position. You’ve essentially deemed me callous, forceful, condescending, obnoxious, and aggressive, among other things. But for you in particular to suggest these things? Pot, meet kettle.

If feminists always tell European women and American men what they’re doing wrong and how they should change, do bitter American men always get militant when someone calls them out on their one-sided perspectives and victim mentality? If so, then I am completely turned off to the American dating scene myself. Your experiences are unfortunate, but buck up already and take responsibility for your own life instead of blaming other people for the things that have gone wrong or been painful. I have a hard time believing that all this resentment and negativity that saturates each one of your posts would even exist if you had moved on and given up this defeatist attitude already.

If you want a woman who is sexy, feminine and sweet, then behave like the kind of man who deserves a woman like that. I mean, I don’t know everything about you, I can only infer by what you write.
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Postby Grunt » Mon May 12, 2008 12:32 pm

Well America ain't doing so hot either when it comes to STD's. I was reading a report a few weeks ago about 1 in 4 TEEN GIRLS in America has at least one STD.

How this will play out in the coming years is anyone's guess, but I'm thinking it'll make Russia look like a picnic. Thank God I don't have to sweat it. Ive had my share of America girls in my youth, but I pity any guys growing up today.

They may never be able to scrub the stink of American females off themselves.
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Postby KristineTheStrawberryGirl » Mon May 12, 2008 9:04 pm

msarah16 wrote:
If you want a woman who is sexy, feminine and sweet, then behave like the kind of man who deserves a woman like that. I mean, I don’t know everything about you, I can only infer by what you write.


I have kind of an intuition that Jackal is just right for a young lady out there who is just as you've described.

You also seem to be an intelligent and witty person, but you just happened to stumble upon a forum which probably represents something that you don't quite advocate. However, by the same token, you might recognize some validity in what is written, and your responses may serve to encourage people check their blind spots before making assumptions.

Having said that, please also remember that in one's personal life, one may not always want to be burdened with knowing every angle of the story or how 1000 different winding roads might lead to one's goals. Sometimes a person just wants to stay focused on a more certain path.
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Postby Jackal » Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:14 am

msarah16 wrote:I’m sorry you’ve had such an awful experience with American women, and I don’t doubt that women contribute significantly to the problem, but if you think for a second that men alone suffer on this scene, you are absolutely wrong. What a tragic irony, that this very man-hating mentality associated with feminism (and American women in general, apparently) is the very thing you and others on this site demonstrate towards women.

There's a difference of scale: feminists hate all men, whereas I simply don't like American women. In fact I dislike American culture in general, so it should be no surprise that I dislike most of the women of this culture. The sweetest "American" women are usually the ones who have at least one parent of a different nationality which gives them a broader perspective (big hugs to Kristy and Kristine :) ).

msarah16 wrote:Can a woman not be feminine and equal at the same time?

This depends how you define "equal". Men and women should have at least slightly different social roles, even if they have many of the same opportunities. I just feel that many European women play these roles better and in less abrasive ways. You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

msarah16 wrote:I suspect you’re not accustomed to interacting with women whose thoughts are clearly articulated and fundamentally opposed to your own.

On the contrary, I'm all too familiar with it. We all like to stick to our own kind, and "my kind" do not live in this country for the most part. I do not have a defeatist attitude, but I am realistic. I could attain at least temporary success with American women if I put a little effort into it, but I have no interest in wasting any more of my effort on them.

I plan on moving overseas, and I'm dedicating my time and resources toward this goal.

msarah16 wrote:If you want a woman who is sexy, feminine and sweet, then behave like the kind of man who deserves a woman like that. I mean, I don’t know everything about you, I can only infer by what you write.

In some areas of America, it is not this simple. There is only one type of person who is considered the ideal (often a 100% American jock from a rich family). In some other parts of America, people might be very sweet but I still don't think that I'd have much in common with them.

You say that you have been overseas, but it doesn't sound like the experience has changed you very much. It does not sound like your heart is overseas the way mine is. If you truly enjoy living in America, I don't think you will understand most of us in this forum.
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Re: Response from savy American female - Any valid points?

Postby Kampr » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:03 pm

I'm not sure I agree with anything the original poster says. She seems dishonest and naive.

American women are indeed cold, distant, and shallow. They aren't assertive with men at all unless a man has been extensively interviewed by a friend. That's the clique fixation in a nutshell. All men outside of their clique are the subjects of deadly serious suspicion, it seems, except the slick types who are the "winner" alpha-males that pump-and-dump these naive women.

Furthermore the passively misogynist attitude that the original poster complained about hardly compares to the active mysandry that American women across the board have adopted thanks to "feminism", which is simply the militant ghetto mentality repackaged for women. Hardly a suprise then that American women view nice men as fools to use, or incompetent dolts, or take pleasure in imagining that unfamiliar men might be criminals.

American women are products of a culture -- mostly created by the media -- that openly encourages women to be sexist and some minorities to be racist, and conditions everyone to distrust everyone else.

One statement that sums up American society is "I got mine so screw you, Jack."

It's a society about distrust and greed, which are reinforced by factionalism. Except few actually distrust the people who are pulling the strings in the media. Americans are continually divided and conquered.
Last edited by Kampr on Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kampr » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:30 pm

msarah16 wrote: There are millions of women in this country, all of them different, and to describe a majority of them with blanket statements is ridiculous and evidence of an astoundingly narrow worldview.


Take a course in anthropology sometime. There's nothing wrong with trying to find out how a culture works, what its collective beliefs and behaviors are like, or those of a group within the society such as women.

Saying that everyone is just different is a cop-out. On its face it's naive and unscientific. In truth it is a flight from argument, probably because the person who says it knows they won't win.
Last edited by Kampr on Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kampr » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:35 pm

Jackal wrote:

Europeans can't stand when American women try to preach to them about how they should change, how their culture isn't empowering women enough, how their women supposedly don't have enough self-esteem, etc. You make it sound as if treating women as sex objects is as bad as dumping toxic waste in the ocean or something.


Two points:

Europeans also dislike when Americans try to preach to non-Americans about how to run their country as a whole....think Iraq.

Secondly, American women are happy to treat men like sex objects any old time, even women who have are ugly, fat, crude etc. American female chauvanism is not punished but rather encouraged.
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