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Why can't we date middle class girls in poor countries?

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Why can't we date middle class girls in poor countries?

Postby Winston » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:59 pm

Dear all,
I was wondering about something today. Why is it that I and most foreigners here tend to end up dating poverty class women in poor countries such as the Philippines, and not the middle class girls? I am from a middle class family myself, and so are most foreigners probably, so theoretically, shouldn't we qualify to date women from our own class?

I would think so. But the middle class girls here tend to be stuck up, and socialize within their clique, schoolmates, and workmates only. Or they are shy about talking to strangers. Or if they are friendly, then they aren't looking for a boyfriend and aren't that eager to get a date.

So, most foreigners in these poor countries end up with women from the poor and poverty class. And not their own class level.

Why is that? Any explanations? Momopi? Ladislav?

Even Dianne told me today that the middle class girls here usually like to date within their own kind and race, not foreigners. But the Philippines tends to be very racially open, so how could this be?

I do have middle class friends here, but they are not easy or desperate, and are picky about who they date. There was one lady online that was middle class that wanted me, but she was older and kind of chubby and I wasn't attracted to her.

For the past few days I've been asking people here "How come in Filipino romance movies, both lovers come from rich families with nice houses and cars, never talk about money, never have any money problems, and only have love problems or dramas in their lives? Where are those people around here? Why can't I have such a relationship?" I know that sounds like a dumb question "Why isn't life like in the movies?" but I was serious. Most replied that that's only in the movies. And one lady told me that those people you see on TV are "artists and actors" and live in their own communities separated from the mainstream public, and attend their own parties that you get into only by invitation.

In my experience, middle class people who are materialistic tend to be stuck up and not very friendly or open. The only types of middle class people that are friendly are avid travelers, those with a spiritual focus in life, like to do humanitarian or charity work, or those that dream of going abroad (ameriphiles) and are tired of their own culture.
Last edited by Winston on Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby momopi » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:21 pm

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropi ... _id=107131

'Collapsing' Filipino middle class


Inquirer
First Posted 03:59am (Mla time) 12/16/2007

Filed Under: Economy, Business & Finance

MANILA, Philippines--DESPITE economic growth, the number of middle class Filipinos and their share of the national income pie have shrunk.

The signs of a shrinking middle class are plain to see. Many professionals, from medical practitioners to executives, continue to migrate to developed countries such as the United States, Canada and Australia in search of greener pastures.

They are joined by a record number of Filipinos working abroad because of the poor pay and bleak employment picture in the country.

Another sign is the growing number of students transferring from private schools to public schools because of spiraling tuition.

The rising cost of goods and services, partly as a result of high fuel prices, is further eroding the living standards of middle-class families.

A study by Romulo Virola, Mildred Addawe and Ma. Ivy Querubin of the National Statistical Coordination Board found thatf there was at least a 2-percentage-point decline in the population share of the middle class between 2000 and 2003.

They also found a 4.6-percentage-point drop in the number of middle-class families with overseas-Filipino-worker members.

Antipoverty? How about pro-middle class?


By Dr. Romulo A. Virola

WE ALL KNOW THAT the overarching goal of our development efforts is to reduce poverty. Toward this end, many programs and policies have been formulated, implemented and monitored over the years. Surely, there are improvements here and there, but the pace of progress just does not seem fast enough. In fact, per the Millennium Development Goals (MDG) monitoring by the National Statistical Coordination Board, we only have a medium probability of attaining our target to halve poverty by 2015! Why? Is something wrong with the implementation of these programs or are our poverty reduction strategies simply ill-conceived?

Generally, it is believed that, for a country to be truly and sustainably prosperous, there must be a broad-based middle class that serves as a stabilizing influence on society.

Knowledge

A middle class that has the knowledge, the skills and the resources to foster economic growth and help generate employment for the poor. But so far, the poverty reduction programs we have crafted have focused mainly on being 'pro-poor," 'antipoverty," helping the 'poorest provinces," etc.

We seem to have completely ignored the needs of and the strategic importance of building and expanding the middle class of Philippine society. Thus, while we all agree to want to help the poorest of the poor, a strategy that pays attention to the middle class may be more effective in achieving our MDG goal to halve poverty by 2015! It is then of interest to find out what is happening to the Pinoy middle class.

Petty bourgeoisie

And just who constitutes this middle class? Does it include those of us who love to be seen spending precious moments at the gym either to make chismis (gossip) or para makahanap ng gf or bf (to find a girlfriend or boyfriend), in other words, para makahanap ng mabibiktima (find someone to victimize)? Or those of us who go to the golf course and watch our handicap soar to new heights each day?

The noisy minority perhaps, who complain about many things and everything, instead of counting their blessings? Or the intellectuals that many of us think we are, the petit bourgeoisie, the Doña Victorina, Angelika Santibañez, Ariel and Maverick or whoever we and Inday can relate to?

In the United States, ideological and economic theories consider the middle class consisting of all those who are neither 'poor" nor 'rich," or being a relative elite of professionals and managers, defined by lifestyle and influence.

Debate on definition

Sometimes, the middle class is defined simply as the statistical middle class, meaning those whose income is in the middle of the income distribution, like the middle 50 percent. No matter if the statistical middle class cannot afford the so-called middle-class lifestyle--government statisticians cannot! But surely, the debate will continue as to what constitutes the middle class.

During the 10th National Convention on Statistics held on Oct. 1-2, we wrote and presented a paper titled 'Trends and Characteristics of the Middle-Income Class in the Philippines: Is it Expanding or Shrinking?" [Virola's co-writers were Mildred B. Addawe and Ma. Ivy T. Querubin.]
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Postby momopi » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:21 pm

(continued)

Income

The paper attempted to define the middle class in terms of income and in terms of socioeconomic characteristics. Using cluster analysis and multiple regression on data from the Family Income and Expenditures Survey (FIES) of the National Statistics Office, the paper provided a glimpse of a possibly collapsing middle class of Philippine society.

The following results were obtained:

The middle-income class may be defined as those families who, in 2007, have total annual income ranging from P251, P283 to P2,045,280. In terms of socioeconomic characteristics, the middle-income families are those who meet all of the following requirements: 1. whose housing unit is made of strong roof materials; 2. who own a house and lot; 3. who own a refrigerator; and 4. who own a radio.

The general population spent the most in the following expenditure items: 1. food, 46.58 percent; 2. housing and repairs, 16.80 percent; 3. transportation and communication, 7.52 percent; 4. fuel, light and water, 6.95 percent; and 5. education, 3.83 percent. The expenditure items with the least shares are 1. recreation, 0.38 percent; 2. other miscellaneous items, 1.04 percent; 3. tobacco, 1.19 percent; 4. household operations, 1.23 percent; and 5. household furnishing and equipment, 1.76 percent.

No conspicuous spending

On the other hand, it is good to note that the middle-income class does not seem to favor a lifestyle of conspicuous consumption. Its top expenditure items are 1. food; 2. house rent; 3. transportation and communication; 4. fuel, light and water; and 5. education. The expenditure items with the least shares are 1. nondurable furnishings; 2. alcoholic beverages; (obviously, the middle class has no passion, despite Iza Calzado); 3. tobacco (which Lucio Tan may not like); 4. recreation; and 5. house maintenance and minor repairs. (See Table 1.)

While the Filipino middle class shrank only a little between 1997 and 2000, there was at least a 2-percentage-point decrease in the population share of the middle class between 2000 and 2003. (See Table 2.)

The number of middle-income families actually increased from 1997 to 2000, but decreased from 2000 to 2003. (See Table 3.)

Expanding low-income class

The percentage share of both the middle- and high-income classes shrank between 1997 and 2000, as well as between 2000 and 2003, resulting in an expanding low-income class in Philippine society.

As of 2003, less than 1 in 100 families belongs to the high income class; about 20 are middle income and 80 are low income. Thus, in a span of six years from 1997 to 2003, for every 100 middle-income families, three families were lost to the low-income category.

Of course, it must be stressed that the low-income class is not necessarily poor, but this trend maybe the basis when people (the middle class?) complain that they do not feel the impact of the economic progress that the country has achieved in recent years. (See Table 3.)

Preliminary results of the 2006 FIES seem to indicate a continuation of the pattern. The good news is that the ratio of the income of the richest 30 percent to that of the poorest 30 percent and the ratio of the income of the richest 10 percent to that of the poorest 10 percent has gone down.

In addition, the Gini coefficient has improved from 0.4605 in 2003 to 0.4564 in 2006, indicating an income distribution that is getting slightly more equitable. The bad news is that the income share of the families in the fifth to the seventh deciles has gone down, meaning that the income share of some of the middle-class families has shrunk. (See Table 4.)

Challenge

Although the middle-income class has expanded in countries like China and India, this phenomenon of a collapsing middle class is present in other countries. For example, Wikipedia cites statistics about the shrinking American middle class as well: over the past two decades, the number of American households in the middle half of the income distribution decreased from 48.2 percent to 44.3 percent!

Indeed, it is a challenge to our development planners to do something about and for the middle class. We can no longer ignore the seemingly systematic shrinking of the group of professionals and skilled workers who can spell the difference between us being mired in poverty or crossing over to the league of First World countries by 2020.

But then, if the Pinoy middle class is truly shrinking, why are spas burgeoning? Or why does business at Starbucks seem to be sizzling? And our neighbors at Rustan's always a-rushing? Maybe we are spending just much more than we can afford?

Have a Merry Christmas!

(Dr. Romulo A. Virola is the secretary general of the National Statistical Coordination Board (NSCB) and chair of the Statistical Research and Training Center. He holds a Ph. D. in Statistics from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, USA and has taught Mathematics and Statistics at the University of the Philippines. This article first appeared in Virola's column, 'Statistically Speaking," on the NSCB website on Dec. 10. He can be contacted at ra.virola@nscb.gov.ph)
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Postby momopi » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:24 pm

If I'm reading the article correctly, only the top 20% in PH are "middle income" and the lower 80% are "lower income". Thus only the top 20% are middle-class by income.
Last edited by momopi on Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby wraith » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:49 am

Maybe the reason of the collapsing middle class is emigration to other countries.
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Postby Winston » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:34 am

Momopi,

By "middle class" here my definition is "anyone who has SOME money" and isn't completely broke. OR has a house in a gated community and a car and a family business that makes ends meet, and does not have to constantly ask to borrow money from others!

That's all.

Now what about my question about why we foreigners here don't usually date within our own class and end up with poverty class women or "social climbers"? (women who are in reality completely broke yet act and look like upper class girls cause they are good at either manipulating others into giving them luxuries, benefits and nice clothes to make them look classy and expensive, or are so hot that they get a lot of things from others, like Dianne does for instance)

My question was not "what IS the middle class"?
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Postby momopi » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:30 pm

WWu777 wrote:Momopi,

By "middle class" here my definition is "anyone who has SOME money" and isn't completely broke. OR has a house in a gated community and a car and a family business that makes ends meet, and does not have to constantly ask to borrow money from others!


So if a person lived in the gated community, and socialized with the people there, he might meet middle-class girls at their social functions, private community gym, swimming pool, and nearby cafe's?

Or, if he attended classes at the local university, he might meet college girls from middle class families.


WWu777 wrote:My question was not "what IS the middle class"?


The answer to that question is very important, if it's only the top 20% of the population. It'd mean spending more time to network with the right people, so you can put yourself in the right places.

If it was 80% middle class, then you only have to get out of the bottom 20%.
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Postby Winston » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:29 pm

momopi wrote:
WWu777 wrote:Momopi,

By "middle class" here my definition is "anyone who has SOME money" and isn't completely broke. OR has a house in a gated community and a car and a family business that makes ends meet, and does not have to constantly ask to borrow money from others!


So if a person lived in the gated community, and socialized with the people there, he might meet middle-class girls at their social functions, private community gym, swimming pool, and nearby cafe's?

Or, if he attended classes at the local university, he might meet college girls from middle class families.


WWu777 wrote:My question was not "what IS the middle class"?


The answer to that question is very important, if it's only the top 20% of the population. It'd mean spending more time to network with the right people, so you can put yourself in the right places.

If it was 80% middle class, then you only have to get out of the bottom 20%.


W: But you're assuming that if I spent more time with them, that I'd be dating them more. That's not necessarily the case. Like I said, even if I met them, they would often just chat in a friendly polite tone and that would be it. Anyone can make polite conversation but it doesn't mean they're interested in you personally or want to go out with you alone, let alone start a romance.

But the question is, why don't most foreigners here date middle class girls of their own class, and instead end up with lower class women?
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Postby momopi » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:51 am

WWu777 wrote:W: But you're assuming that if I spent more time with them, that I'd be dating them more. That's not necessarily the case. Like I said, even if I met them, they would often just chat in a friendly polite tone and that would be it. Anyone can make polite conversation but it doesn't mean they're interested in you personally or want to go out with you alone, let alone start a romance.

But the question is, why don't most foreigners here date middle class girls of their own class, and instead end up with lower class women?


This is like deja vu from people who commented that all the farangs in Thailand somehow end up with an Isan girl.

What is the supply condition of middle-class girls in your local area?
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Postby MoscowSummerNights » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

Interesting topic.

Here in Russia, it has always been for me that I date across the spectrum. They do not NEED American men anymore, but there is no stigma at all against dating one.

If middle class Filipinas are not desperate for American men and do not even prefer us...please document this so we can prove in an IMBRA challenge that the women of the Philippines are clearly NOT desperate for us like the feminists and socons say they are.

They would have to stipulate that only lower class Filipinas prefer American men. Although this might seem to strengthen their Marxist argument...it would actually weaken it.

Because then laws like IMBRA would have to stipulate that men need to be background checked only if they try to talk with women who are in a lower CLASS than the American is.

Right now, IMBRA broadbrushes the women of all foreign countries as children who are desparate to come to the USA and will prostitute themselves to get there.
Plaintiffs needed to fight IMBRA and VAWA which legally codify foreign women as little children unable to defend themselves against evil American men
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Just a thought...

Postby Shokkers » Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:46 pm

I'm out of the loop, geographically speaking, but it seems that this syndrome isn't unique to third-world countries.
Dating the "Middle Class" women of the Phillipines is probably equivalent to a U.S. auto mechanic dating someone in Hollywood's "B-list". (Which isn't as crazy as it seems.)

I've dated on either end of the spectrum, and there are upsides and downsides to dating poorer and well-off women.

Poor girls are generally more easily satisfied and easier to keep around. On the downside they can't do much for you and need help more often.

Rich girls might have a more luxurious environment and larger social circle, and give cooler gifts. On the downside they may have little patience (want everything done 'yesterday'), finicky standards, and certainly don't need any particular ONE guy. (An odd & ironic benefit: you'll definitely find out who your real friends are, when some of them start toadying to her for 'favors'.)

At the end of the day, women of every stripe tend to have sex the same way, so for guys who mainly have sex in mind, the girl's background shouldn't matter all that much.
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Postby Jackal » Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:34 pm

WWu777 wrote:But the question is, why don't most foreigners here date middle class girls of their own class, and instead end up with lower class women?


I would probably say that this is because the majority of the foreigners in the Philippines are not fluent in Filipino. Education is highly valued by middle class people and if you don't even speak their language well you probably seem somewhat foolish compared to the educated elite who can speak both Filipino and English.

A foreigner wouldn't get very far in an English-speaking country with middle class women if he didn't speak good English.

Not speaking the local language and being ignorant of local customs makes a person lose status anywhere.
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Re: Why can't we date middle class girls in poor countries?

Postby nataku » Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:59 am

WWu777 wrote:I was wondering about something today. Why is it that I and most foreigners here tend to end up dating poverty class women in poor countries such as the Philippines, and not the middle class girls?


Pride... everyone has it... regardless of class or ethnicity...

in developing countries that used to be colonies of developed countries, pride sometimes manifests itself as suspicion, resentment, or even hatred, towards the citizens of its former colonial master... the feeling often extended to other foreigners regardless of citizenship...

As for the Philippines... although filipinos, especially the poor, are generally warm and generous to foreigners, sex is an altogether different issue... NOT every poor philippine woman would chase after a foreigner... most of those poor philippine women that foreigners get to date either live in anonimity or desperation in the urban centers... back in the provinces where they come from, they would not even think of going after a foreigner for sex...

Pride comes in varying degrees among the poor... it is higher for those living in the provinces compared to those who live in the cities where survival depends on how much money you can get in a day... not by how much taro and sweet potatoes you can gather...


WWu777 wrote:I am from a middle class family myself, and so are most foreigners probably, so theoretically, shouldn't we qualify to date women from our own class?


sorry... that does not follow... philippine class and society is not that simple...

unlike what most foreigners assume, the philippines is not homogenous by class or ethnicity...

besides their economic background, there are many factors to consider like regional historical experiences (its different what the colonial masters did in every island and provinces), regional values and tradition (different from island to island), religion, educational background, etc...

foreigners, especially those concentrated in the urban centers, often become frustrated because they tend to lump filipinos as one homogenous group that have the same values...

in the philippines where social mobility is unpredictable, social class is not determined by weatlh alone... lots of wealthy filipinos who still don't get respect and can only date the girls that their dirty money can buy... the problem of not being able to date "decent" girls is also a problem for many filipinos... not just the foreigners...

the urban centers like manila are nothing but a very poor and cheap copy of what they envision a US city would be... they only make up less than 10 percent of the entire philippines! people in the urban centers get caught up in this illussion... this desparation and frustration... my suggestion to foreigners who plan to stay longer in the philippines: Get away from the cities!


WWu777 wrote:The only types of middle class people that are friendly are avid travelers, those with a spiritual focus in life, like to do humanitarian or charity work, or those that dream of going abroad (ameriphiles) and are tired of their own culture.


fmiddle class people who are friendly and avid travellers? those with a spiritual focus in life? do humanitarian and charity work? ameriphiles? people tired of their own culture?

honestly...are you not oversimplifying people this way???

seriously... how can someone with spiritual focus be an ameriphile or hate his/her own culture???

could it be that you could not find that "ideal middle class filipina" simply because you're too preoccupied with "matching the right labels" instead of simply going out there, meet people AS PEOPLE, and accept them for their individual uniqueness and weaknesses???
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Postby Winston » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:24 pm

Here's an explanation I received by email that makes sense and sounds logical and accurate:

"Lower class normally means stimulus seeking and immediate gradification. Middle class means people who value delayed gradification.

This means middle class would be calculating and delay their pleasure. They would be more intellectual and less emotional. They would be shy (intelligent) and think about the consequence of their behavior. They would be future oriented and have more money because they spend less of it. They would have more education which normally causes more income.

Foreigners want a roll in the hay. Middle class women want security not fun now. Therefore foreigners normally can not date middle class girls."
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Postby ladislav » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:27 pm

It is generally more difficult than in 1st world countries because middle class people are more spoiled by virtue of relativity- they have millions of desperately poor ready to serve them. Through that, they are pickier, more finicky and have a greater degree of entitlement. A teacher in the USA will not have servants; in poorer countries they will. So, girls there are used to being served upon.
There is also the nationalism factor which is present in most societies- it is also a luxury of the middle class- they have time and money to be nationalistic. Poor people care more about where the next piece of bread is coming from.
Foreigners that usually visit, hang out in areas where the populace hangs out. Unless they are business CEO or something. Also, many are interested in getting a girl quick and into the sack. Middle class girls are not that easy in that respect.
Many foreigners are not really middle class back home but working class people with money. All because of the opportunities back home. They do not discriminate against the poor and do not mind dating them. Por Filipinos can be gorgeous and that is all they care about- a cute girl that they can shag and quickly.
If you insist on dating a middle class, do remember that they like to marry traditionally so as not to disgrace themselves and want you to follow traditional values- such as a two year courtship. Also, they want to marry up, so you have to be at least an upper middle class person for them to move up.
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