Are there really that many guys here that feel like this? I'm interested in going abroad not because there aren't high quality women here with some good attitudes. I don't condemn American women but I realize things are much different here and my chances aren't that good. I am going because it's much easier for me to find interesting women and I'll have loads better chances all while spending significantly less money and having much more fun in the process. Another big bonus is I'll get laid a lot abroad too.aozora13 wrote:Why are you here in the forum when you believe that although American women are not as good as they were around 50 years ago, they are at least good to date and have long-term relationships. If this is how you feel than most likely you should find a forum where men help other men find decent American women. I have not found a forum such as that is legit/truthful but this might be a start for you.
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Yes, this thread is a bit stupid because it was started by a feminist troll. When made your first posts to this forum as replies in at least partial support of a feminist troll, you brought a lot of suspicion onto yourself. You should appreciate how these things appear.
If you didn't want to be misinterpreted, then you should have introduced yourself in the "introductions" thread. That's a simple action which would have avoided a lot of misunderstandings.
The main thing I was getting at is that if you always had an easy time dating women while growing up in the US, then you probably won't be able to relate to most of us. If you're like JFK Jr., then you think, "Gee, American women are so friendly! Wow, the US is a dating paradise!" and can hardly believe otherwise or ever fully understand the viewpoints of people who didn't have it so easy.
I'M GOING TO SETTLE THIS ARGUMENT WITH ONE POST, ONCE AND FOR ALL.
I was curious what the online buzz on this topic was about (I literally googled "forum what is wrong with american women?") and it led me here.
I'll try to keep this short, but before I begin, just so nobody can make assumptions about me and how the 'problem is probably with me', let me describe myself briefly. I'm not perfect, and I've always downplayed my own ego and self to try to remain humble and grounded in life, but I do have several good qualities that make me a 'good catch':
I'm 30ish, 6 feet tall, short blonde hair, in very strong athletic shape, I practice martial arts, girls have always called me 'cute, handsome, etc'. I work from home, its a sales company me and some partners started, so I make good money, self-employed. I also read and write alot, I'm working on a novel on the side, I play the guitar, so I definitely have a creative, thinking side. Personality-wise I've always been pretty easygoing, laid back, humorous, easy to talk, easy to listen, I 'get people' so socially i get by pretty well. Oh, and I'm originally from Brasil, even though I've been an American since I was a child, but I still speak Portuguese.
So, like I said, I'm not perfect, obviously I didn't list my flaws above, but the point is, there are *plenty* of men out there with a less attractive overall package to offer women, even American women.
So what do I think of American women after living in the US for 20 years, in the Bay Area, California and then Seattle, Washington (for the last 3 years)? (remember, I am from Brasil, and I have travelled back several times, plus I'm a writer so I'm very well informed about the world...)
The answer is, American women, especially the white ones, and especially in big cities, coming from all the experience and knowledge I have about life, are absolutely the worst women in the entire planet.
I've had some girlfriends as an adult here, so I'm not some bitter virgin/hermit, but I recently started my business, and all I am doing is counting the dollars and counting the days until I can move back to Brasil. Permanently. By the way, I currently do have a girlfriend, she's a sweet cute 18 year old still in high school (yes she's 18 I checked) and we have great sex and a great time, so it's not like I'm alone and unhappy. And also I know how to talk to women, so anytime if I am single, I can go hit up the town, talk to girls, get numbers, spark up some dates (after enough trial and error and rejection of course, but that's how dating is) and eventually get another girlfriend if I had to.
But this isn't about me so much as it is an objective attempt to seal the argument about what American women are really like. The information about me is just to give you the reader a reference point so that you may know that I am qualified to speak on the issue with some authority and experience, as well as many years (at least a decade) of constantly pondering these cultural and sociological issues, since they have always bothered me.
First off, American culture may be a melting pot, at least in most big cities, which is a 'positive benefit' many people use to try to defend it, but unfortunately that is *literally* the case, it's not just a euphomism: people come here from great cultures from all over the world but they just get 'melted into the pot'. A Chinese might end up in Chinatown, a Cuban might end up in Little Havana in Miami, but as far as the general culture there is no cultural sharing or diversity. This is a myth, a lie. There is mostly only mainstream commercial American culture, it is very dominant, it is very widespread and homogenized, and most white people buy into it and live in it. Not all, but most. And mainstream American culture and as a result many people in it, both men and women, is a very young, selfish, disrespectful, callous, self-absorbed, self-worshipping, sex-obsessed, ammoral, unemotional or emotionally disturbed, physically unhealthy (except for the few physical 'elite' of the population, who tout their looks as social currency in an ill way), disconnected, extremely racist and divided, both ethnically and socially, highly consumeristic, vain, product and name-brand obsessed, cold, apathetic, jaded.... jeez, I'm trying to remain accurate in my usage of terms but I think the dictionary will soon run out of words.
In short, to sum up all those adjectives: American culture is highly CORRUPT.
It seems to be, not only on a grand economy-wide scale as most countries are guilty of, but also on the micro social scale, to be an outlet for so many of the uglier human vices and emotions such as greed, avarice, loveless lust, malice, agression, segregation, alienation, ostracism, contempt, vanity, narcissism, etc etc etc...
And Im not talking about some dirty smoky stripper joint in New jersey. I'm talking about your average high school student. I know, I've lived here my whole life. Land of liberty, land of freedom... yes, don't get me wrong, I love this country for its better side and for its as-yet-unfulfilled potential still to come. But it's also the land of Columbine and Virginia Tech. The kids here are not well, and not just the murdering-rampage oddballs, I mean the average one.
American white women, unfortunately, though often blessed by nature with incredible bodies and other talents, seem on a vast-majority basis to consistently represent the very worst of an already compromised society.
By far, my experience trying to talk to them or date them, which seems to be agreed upon time and time again when i talk with other men both local and foreign, is that they are like empty female shells. Oh yes, the anatomy is there, often they are very pretty and incredibly sexy, in fact even though it might sound like an insult I mean it literally, that the best thing American white women have going for them (when they're not obesse, bolemic, out of shape, or otherwise unhealthy) is also precisely the one thing they have no control over: the DNA nature gave them.
But otherwise there is scarcely a single drop of genuine feminine warmth to be found, of compassion, of free-spirited emotion, candor, playfulness, openmindedness, understanding, affection... you know, anything at all one might take for granted from young girls and women all around the world. (although some places are pretty bad too, England, Russia, some places in Eastern Europe and the Middle east, etc)
Most American women will right away look you up and down, judge you, put you into a category of some kind, and take it from there. Its hard to get a free genuine interaction going with them. And by far, the number one thing that they are attracted to, more than physique, more than an emotional connection, more than common interersts... is social status. The women here are cold in that sense, they don't regard you as another human being of equal value and worth at least some consideration. You're only as good as your social standing in their local social hierarchy.
An American woman could meet a great guy out and about, a hypothetically strong, responsible, well educated, pleasant humorous, good-looking, healthy and fun guy (and they are out there) and she might see some good qualities, but overall, because she met him in an equal one-on-one situation in public, the attraction will probably be pretty low. He has no social value yet. Good qualities aplenty, sure, but what's that, there's no currency, no power, no value for her. So maybe they exchange numbers but it doesn't go anywhere because try as he might, for all he can offer, she is largely incapable of being turned on by something so simple as a good man. She needs more than just that.
Now, on the reverse scenario she could hang out with her friends at her local favorite bar, and she will meet a guy there who's hanging out with some of his male friends. This guy could be worth practically nothing to her, in fact he could even be outright harmful for her, someone that will make her unhappy, cause her all sorts of problems in the long run and eventually lead nowhere, etc. Not to say all people hanging out in bars are bad, i like going out for a drink too, but this is just an example. But this guy does have status. He's at her favorite bar, he's got a posse of friends, he's got a little goatee and a leather jacket or some trivial combination of superficial outward accessories/styles. So in her mind, this guy's got something she wants or needs, he's connected, he's cool, he's got influence, at least in the microcosm bar domain they are both in. So her attraction opens up. It has nothing to do with emotions, or the man himself. In fact that guy at the bar, poor sucker, is himself only like a vehicle for her social ambitions, so that when she is talking to her friends or thinking about her life she can claim that the 'cool normal boyfriend' box is checked off.
Yes, the women here are that shallow. No, this is not an exaggeration. Neither is it completely their fault, though, it's just the culture they come from. Ultimately, though, that scapegoating only gets so far. In the end, no matter how unfair, unjust or skewed our circumstance, that's life. We are all personally responsible for how we turn out, and it is everyone's moral obligation to question their surroundings and choose the best path, it doesn't matter if there's a million morons next to you jumping off a cliff, you need to have enough sense not to do the same or else there is no excuse.
As for me, like I said, I'm moving to Brasil. The people over there aren't perfect either, far from it, but without going in depth about Brasil, they are far more human.
The main problem with America is its not a culture based on nature. Brasil is, hence the people are beautiful, more active, healthier, friendlier, warmer, they are more emotionally open, you know, like intelligent mammals should be. American culture on the other hand, is a sort of inbred, self-feeding artificial construct based on mankind itself. Nature is just an auxiliary diversion and locale in the average American mind, far from being relevant in his society and social sphere. therefore, in America, there is no need to be natural, to be authentically human. A man-made synthetic image, a sort of 'best projection' of a real human will do instead, and that's what the women here are chasing, incredibly attractive 'male projections'. Not real men, though.
In Brasil the women, and I don't mean just the hot ones, I mean the average woman, is multiples more attractive, natural healthy and more sensual, with supple curves and all, than your average American white woman... and yet, somehow, magically, they are also infinitely less conceited and difficult to approach, meaning they are genial and have open non-judging dispositions most of the time. Fancy that...
Oh, and before I go, one last myth I want to kill. The myth of the American bad boy being somehow funner and hence more attractive, while the American good man, the honest man, even if he is just as physically strong and adequate all around, is somehow boring, lame, uncool and totally unnatractive.
Well, it's not a myth really, because this is how the two archetypes are perceived and treated by the women here. The myth lies is the warped logic feeding this collective notion.
Yes, there are some 'nice guys' who are just chronically and pathetically wimpy, dying to please suck-ups, and those nerds, wimps and severe introverts need to man up and get their act together. But we're not talking about those guys. We're talking about men, normal men who just happen to be good guys, with values and principles and class, intelligence, integrity, etc, who all in all are real men and aren't going to stoop to being 'the dude with the goatee at the bar' just for the sake of getting laid, at the cost of transforming his own 'self image' in a superficial way. Those men tend to get dogged on bigtime in American society, espeecially by the women. Why? Simply because a good man necessitates the woman being good herself, and this is out of the question. If the good man has character and virtues, obviously the woman he is dating will need to be mindful, considerate, thoughtful herself. Not likely adjectives to describe the typical woman here. And so on. If the good man is emotionally healthy and loves art, his woman will need to more or less be a warm feminine woman with a creative side in order to complement him.
Uhmm, warm? creative? feminine? Let's not get carried away now. America isn't Brasil after all. Or Italy. Or Greece. Or the Phillipines, Or France. Or Canada. Or... hell, just about every country with a culture more mature than 234 radically turbulent years filled with near constant fighting, capitalistic and colonial expansion, and inner turmoil.
So it is him who is seen as 'the bad boy' here that seems to get a free ride socially. Oh, he's cool, oh yeah, he's got a certain naughty mysterious something that those boring goody nice guys just simply dont get. Bullshit. What a huge scam, such a lie. 'Good men' do fine anywhere else. Let's call America's typical 'bad boy' by what he really is in order to begin to debunk this myth: the moron, the shameless buffoon, the guy who's stuck in high school his whole life, the adolescent prick, the irresponsible oaf, the uncaring dickwad, the pretentious city boy, etc etc.
"Ohhhh.... but he's got an edgy little attitude and he's got that haircut like that guy from that TV show with the vampires. And he's stupid and he won't ever say anything insightful or intelligent, and he'll never compliment me but instead only put me down in order to lower my self esteem as a ploy to get me to want to prove myself to him and subsequently drop my panties for him because no other method of showing my worth will suffice.... that's it. Suzy, grab Sarah and Jenny we're heading over to that guy's table, I can't resist."
I think in the mind of American women their social fantasy is like Top Gun, some 80's Tom Cruise movie where the moody brooding military guy playing pool spits a bunch of pithy one liners then offers her a ride home on his bike.
Get real. And yeah, there are plenty of men who act nice and get the girl here in America, but what pretentious, corny, souless depths so many of these phony men succumb to. All the yuppies, valley boys, corporate types, business jerks, church-mice, and otherwise normal suburban Mr. John Johnson types who tailor themselves in every facet exactly according to American women's ideal of the 'perfect male product'.
They f***ing deserve each other, the sycophants.
American women who read this, I wish the best for you, or for your daughters and granddaughters if you are incapable of changing, but despite the impression I gave in this post, Im actually not sexist! The men here have got their own problems, and I leave for Brasil really with just two best friends, and some of their family members who are also cool by association. Thats it.
I hope this exhaustive testament (ok, so I wasn't able to keep it short, sorry...) from a writer and observer of the world more clued in to reality than not, will provide whoever comes across it some sense of a definitive, recalcitrant and undeniable proof of the sad turn modern America has taken.
American white women, I will not miss you, and neither will the world, when one day America finally changes and your corrupted personalities and mentalities so prevalent today are relegated to a history and good riddance. You are for the most part both collectively and individually an insult to nature and all other good women all around the world, who ironically have so much less opportunity and material security than you do and yet manage to be somehow so much more wholesome and loving than you, even in the midsts of abject poverty!
One last note- there are good American women out there, few though they are, and if you are one of them or if you are married to one or know any, then I'm sorry if you or they felt insulted by the truth of my post, but the goodness of a few cannot make up for the ignorant, primitive squalor of the many. Besides, you're not all that pure. I know your secret... You may be good, and gorgeous, but also feminine and warm and all that goodness... but you're not stupid. At some level you're aware of how good you are, how rare you are, how much guys have always known the same thing when they met you and clammored to get with you... and in the end, inescapably, you have most likely developed a similar attitude of 'untouchable preciousness'. Your value. Your worth. You may be good, we already stated this, but I know it is there. It is because you're American, and it's the culture you come from, you can't help it. Still, kudos to you, at least you made it way more intact than the others.
I had to come back and edit this just to add this in: the ultimate way to try to debunk and discredit someone's statements is to call them bitter, negative, biased, etc. Dont even try it. I'm not bitter, I already told you, I had my share of girlfriends here and Im currently getting laid quite frequently and splendidly. I'm a happy guy. And no, I'm not negative, that is one of the greatest slanders good journalists, reporters and social commentators have always historically had to deal with. READ MY CYBER LIPS: SOMEONE WHO TALKS ABOUT, WRITES OR OTHERWISE REPORTS ON NEGATIVE ISSUES AND EVENTS ARE NOT NECESSARILY THEMSELVES "NEGATIVE"! I really had to capitalize that one, i hate hearing it.
Sorry, there's nothing you can say to discredit me personally. What I wrote it about is simply the truth. Deal with it. Yes, people can become corrupted. Humans, especially women, because of their sensitivity (which when cultivated properly does indeed make them superior, wiser beings, I'll be the first to admit) are quite vulnerable to corruption. Sorry, I know, I too wish humans had been designed more resilient too. Those are the ropes, I didn't design them.
What a brilliant, courageous, insightful and truthful post that disseminates many truths. I will share it with my mailing list.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne, How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World
Yes, this was a very fine post. The disconnect from nature theory is one I started thinking about 30 years ago when American women all started coloring their hair, but put it on the back burner. Glad it's been raised again, because there might be something there.
Back in the '60s and '70s most AW went with a natural look, and lots of them looked fantastic. I'm pretty sure this isn't just my more youthful hormones at the time making this judgment. When I see the rare AW really rocking the natural look, as I did last night at pub quiz, it triggers the same old feelings.
The theory, as I see it, goes something like this: As AW in large numbers began changing their hair color circa 1981, the tendency to regard themslves as objects of narcissistic self-attention became exacerbated. The paint was ladled on all the thicker, then tatooes and piercings became "body art." Eventually their desires became corrupted and unnatural. In the '60s and '70s, on the testimony of those old enough to remember, such as myself and Globetrotter, AW, for the most part, had normal, natural desires. They wanted to find men with good qualities, and were able to attach their libidoes to such men without difficulty. Now, it's all terribly complicated, and whatever minimal libidoes they still have left are attached to a phony social status system, to feelings of self-contempt, to actual, physical danger, and other similarly twisted social constructs.
I don't know that AW can escape the whole perverse system. If they rebel against the war paint and the rest of the phony status arrangement, the culture now tries to convince them that they're lesbians. Best to just leave this place.
More and more women in the US have body piercings and tatoos. Probably NO women had body piercings or tatoos back in the 1950's. Women were more natural then (both physically and mentally). Now in America we have women who look like the picture of the woman below:
Great post by ThankTheStarsIHaveBrasil, except for a pandering sentence at the end: Humans, especially women, because of their sensitivity (which when cultivated properly does indeed make them superior, wiser beings, I'll be the first to admit) are quite vulnerable to corruption.
Wisdom is mainly a male trait. Women need to be guided and constrained by a man's firm yet gentle wisdom. Men are also more rational than women. Calling one sex "superior" to the other is not accurate; in a harmonious society men and women compliment each other and strengthen each other's good qualities. In contemporary America, everyone is brought up to regard everyone else as competitors to be brought down. The U.S. is indeed a grotesquely socially-engineered, non-natural society in many ways.
I don't *do* "pander".
Thanks for the compliment, but your ignorant, hillbilly sexism is pretty disappointing, if not typical.
It's sad that (obviously and apparently) you have never been around many real women. If you had you may know they have a tremendous and nearly uncanny amount of sensibility, common sense and understanding, ie, wisdom about a great deal. You sound American. Please don't insult all women thus. It sounds like you have never actually met any.
However, the remark about equality in a harmonious society and the condescending, vicious nature of modern American society is true, I'll grant you.
Let's be sure about something- I'm not going to Brasil to party it up in Rio and be some tropical swinger. I'm going there to hopefully fall in love with my future wife and settle down, raise a family with a good woman with more traditional values.
Your sexism is exactly one of the reasons I am leaving as a result of not having even come close to finding romance/wife material here in the US: a condescending and scornful distrust of the opposite sex that breeds a loveless atmosphere between men and women with which I want no part, and both sides are equally guilty. You don't want to hear what I would have to say if I wrote an equally long post just about American men. But naturally, women are of bigger concern to me, being a straight male.
Put the spotlight on yourself before judging women as you do, brother. I am one to talk, I know, it's ironic right, except that contrary to the generally scathing tone of my long post, the biggest reason I'm going to Brasil is exactly because I do regard women so highly... think about that for a minute.
I suppose this post was useful in order 'to guide you with my firm yet gentle wisdom'...
Wow, awful thin-skinned, aren't you? I said it was a great post while disagreeing with one sentence and I get flamed like this? Apparently I should have bowed in awe of your peerless and unchallengeable brilliance.
Now I know why your first post was so long -- you're a pompous know it all who brooks no disagreement. You need to detox before you become your "natural" charming self in Brazil as I wouldn't want to see you end up being deported back here.
I'm not going to argue with you, seeing as it seems pretty futile anyway.
But just to clear up more of your slander to other forum readers before I do...
Don't attack me personally, there's nothing to be gained from that. There is nothing I said about you that could not be readily gleamed from your primitive-sounding post. Notwithstanding, if you had begun a debate or discussion or even a sharply pointed criticism about anything I wrote, assuming there was some logic or validity to it, I wouldn't have replied so abrasively to you.
But unfotunately, let's be frank, logic and validity were in short supply with what you said, except for a couple somewhat reasonable sentences at the end. A case of too little too late on that count.
I wrote a lot, firstly, because I like writing, and secondly, because I had a lot to say, meaning the length is proportionate to the content.
But let's stop this, we're getting off subject now to wade into personal defense, flame retribution, etc, its all very ugly and unproductive.
My advice for you, is, whether its an online forum or out and about in person in public, mind what you say, believe it or not there are always going to be repercussions and feedback, both positive and negative.
First you claim that I'm being pandering by suggesting that good women possess a superior level of grace and wisdom when their emotions and minds are properly cultivated (I think most *children* recognize this fact early on in life in most other parts of the world where 'good women' are more abundant...). Then you spit your little sexist spew, which is totally baseless and degrading by the way.
"Men are more rational than women". Universally. Genetically. Across the board. Yeah, I'm really out of line questioning you on that profound declaration...
Yes, you addressed me directly, and yes, what you said was overtly dumb, so yes, I came back and snuffed it out. Do you live in a box of which you are also mayor and chairman, by any chance?
What do you expect, that the internet is some absolute consequence-free, homeless-prophet street corner soapbox where you can say whatever you please and theres absolutely nobody that's going to question what you say or push back at all?? Maybe in some places, but apparently not here, and not when youre talking directly to me, that's self-evident.
We cool now... Good.
Back to the topic at hand, then, have it folks.
You take yourself way too seriously, son. "Slander," huh? Pompous, self-important idiot.
Bon gia ThankTheStarsIHaveBrasil!
Great post! That was quite an accurate summary of the situation in the US, at least the way I remember it.... I've been out of the US for so long now that it just sounds like some fictional place in a bad movie by now.
Good luck with your move to Brazil. I always root for the Brazilian soccer team in the world cup. I like the gracefulness and the joy for living that the Brazilian players have.
Mentally sound, emotionally healthy women do often feel empathy and compassion more easily than men do. I think that's what you were refering to, right?
Last edited by Jackal on December 22nd, 2010, 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I guess it helped you to interpret the correct meaning by not taking the word 'superior' in that sentence too defensively...
Yes, that's right, I'm exactly what you say. Since after 2 or 3 internet posts you know me quite well on a personal level, or because I used one word such as slander, I am indeed a "pompous self-important idiot" who takes himself too seriously.
Got me nailed peg on the square.
So we're done now, right?
You're right in a way... I could've come at you a little more mellow and still made the same points I did, without the whole incendiary "I'm better than you, you dumb redneck" tone, and that was my bad, I admit. Words carry power, I *usually* know how to use that power quite well, but as with all power it gets carried away sometimes. I didn't mean to scold you so harshly just for voicing yourself.
On your end, though, cmon... when someone is writing their honest serious opinion on a topic and you say they're 'pandering', that might as well be another synonym for calling them weak or something, any man is likely to have his hairs raised a bit when hearing that... no?
I'm just saying... No worries though, all in good fun.