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Why do women give bad advice to men about dating?

Discuss dating, relationships and foreign women.

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Postby Jackal » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:48 pm

ahardy57 wrote:Status, power and money shows that the man will protect her, so she feels more ready to open her heart to him.

I don't think women like this could even be said to have "hearts" at all, and I doubt that they could ever feel deep love when they are basically just looking for rich men to use as their golden dildos.
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Postby djfourmoney » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:52 am

catameran wrote:Repatriate is right on the money. The things you need to know most, people won’t tell you. You need to develop your skills of observations and go over every clue. People may be ashamed of their real motives or want to make themselves look good as possible, so will give you BS so that you will go away. However, the perception thing works in your advantage in a foreign country. If you are a gringo, you can be perceived as normal and desirable, even though you don’t fit in your own country; especially, if the people haven’t had much prior contact with gringos. My Colombian ex wife treated my like a god when we were in Colombia. She saw me as something valuable that could be snatched from her at any moment by another woman, and she was very jealous and would instantly notice any woman who looked at me. But, when she moved to the US, the situation slowly changed, and she was an American woman by year three. The situation normalized and I became the beggar, as any American man, and she was the hot property. She now has a job and gets all kinds of help from men. She has more support in America then I have had in my entire life. My advice to men is that you really need to get out of America permanently if you want to have a happy life. If you bring a foreign woman into America, she will turn into another American woman. How could it be any other way? When you mix hot and cold water together, they equalize and become the same temperature. If you live in her country, other women will remind her daily how valuable you are. In America, her friends will inform her of all her rights, and plant suggestions in her head that she can get a better deal elsewhere.


I don't think that's the case for every Woman, especially those from Western Europe. Most of them are largely here because of job opportunities and better weather (South, Southeast and Southwest). These positives outweigh the negatives, so you don't hear much complaining. The European women I know generally reject many things we see as cultural norms in America. It might be different of women from poorer countries, as they aren't seen as anything special back at home. But the women shortage here will have any good looking woman getting more than her fair share of attention from suitors.

I don't know what happen to your marriage and I'm sorry it failed, but its likely quite a bit more than her assimilating to America.
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Postby ahardy57 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:32 am

Rock wrote:1. A lot of what Ahardy has said strongly supports some of the later core philosophies David DeAngelo and the PU gurus in his camp. His training focus seemed to evolve over time from superficial skills which were good for getting numbers or generating light banter to an inner game and self improvement emphasis which taught men how to internalize, over time, real alpha male thinking.

2. I don't discount her automatically because she's a woman either. I was the first to admit that certain girls, including Bella, can provide useful insights. The fact is, a lot of what she says makes sense in light of my own experience.

3. Now I suspect the ease of going the non-alpha male route varies from culture to culture. Much of my own experience is with NE Asian women (mainly Chinese) and I'm pretty sure this strategy has a much stronger chance here than in the States, Europe, and even Latin America. I've observed dozens of cases where men, usually locals, have slowly won a woman's heart over, just by being politely persistent, ever present, but usually composed and in control of their emotions. Often, the woman in question is much more physically attractive than the guy. The game can go on for months or even years and sometimes the girl dates playboys or foreigners during the process. Of course, the guy realizes that these 'romeos' will probably disappear in short order and when they do, he's there to comfort her. Now in America, he would probably be a permanent friend at best, the understanding shoulder to cry on. But many Chinese women I've seen get genuinely touched by such guys and will quickly get serious and marry them, especially once they reach mid-late 20s.

4. When it comes to chemistry, isn't a lot of it just a fancy way to describe physical attraction and charm? Consider any hot woman that you see sometimes in person, perhaps a co-worker, classmate, or friend of a friend. There's a good chance you feel strong 'chemistry' towards her, especially if she is somewhat nice to you and makes you believe you 'just might have a chance'. Now imagine that she goes on an eating binge and manages to gain 25 kgs. or maybe she gets addicted to meth and within months looks 20 years older. In those circumstances, do you still think you will feel strong 'chemistry' towards her? Be honest. Its widely believed that woman are not as visually driven as men. But I think most of us still believe, better looks help a man out a lot in attracting women.

My point is, if you have low lying fruit (overweight from inactivity, lack of muscle tone, dress poorly, bad hair cut, poor hygiene, sloppy posture, body odor, etc.), don't you think you could improve your chances of sparking chemistry from females if you handled these issues? They're going to make a difference with some girls. Remember that poster from a couple months ago who claimed after he worked-out for a few weeks and got more buff, women seemed to notice him a lot more? Makes a lot of sense to me.



Rock, you too observe how relationship progresses over time. This is just the principle of relationships. We did not make it. Alpha males and beta males approach things differently, Beta males tend to be more sensitive, faithful and loyal, kinder spouse and fathers, and more conscientious. Women like all those qualities, (and they are essential for a happy marriage). Beta tend to be boring, and dull. But they WILL BE THERE for you.

The first time that I understood the alpha -beta process was when I was about 18. We were a group of young people involved in sales. Sale teams were formed. There will be young men, who barely knew each other. There was about eight of them, and usually about two women. Our jobs was sales. From the eight guys, usually an alpha was picked to be the leader. The alpha always was tall muscular, and EXCEPTIONALLY CONFIDENT, handsome and self assured. The betas just faded into the woodwork. I was never elected for a leader. I was only 18, and didn't even want to be. But a dynamic will start happening. The first time, over and over again my eyes were drawn to the alpha male. At that time I did not know these terms or what I was feeling. Just electricity. The alpha male had a direct gaze, the betas just mulled around talking to each other. Now the alpha male surveys his territory. He glances at the betas, in an encompassing sweep. He glances at the females, these were his pleasure objects. He does not say it, I do not say it. It's understood on a deeper level. The fat, unfeminine ones, he dismisses automatically. I always was the slender younger one, innocent at the time. Our eyes will meet. Electricity. That will set the course for the rest of the work we had to do. As time went on, the alpha will be drawn to me and I to him. There was a rule that there is no dating or sex allowed here. Yet in spite of that, nature always took its course. Without word or touch on our part, that relating was still there. He was drawn to me. I went for the alpha. Most of the other seven guys were beta. And usually there was one alpha among them. At times the alpha in the lower position will butt horns and defy the leader. And this pattern will continue till the end of the job. But the other alpha will chase after me also. The other girl, usually fat and more masculine, will not get any special treatment, or she was treated like the rest of the guys. But the woman who acted like a MAN, was given the worse treatment. All the males will gang up on her and scream at her and hate her. No other person was hated more on the sales team than the masculine woman.

Time and time again this pattern developed as we re-arranged different sales team with new people. Each work period will last about six months, yet the each new team the pattern always persisted. Beta males were followers, and the alpha males ruled. And the other alpha male who was not the leader gravitated towards the leader, with aggressive competition or tried to win his acceptance.


This pattern is what I observed and I think it is how human nature works.

With confidence, the beta males, were transformed into dynamic people, I also saw. And they became better sales people, and their shyness became less or overcame altogether. Most improved, and they became very likeable. Interestingly, the really strong women, often liked the beta more.
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Postby ahardy57 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:44 am

Repatriate wrote:
Rock wrote:1. A lot of what Ahardy has said strongly supports some of the later core philosophies David DeAngelo and the PU gurus in his camp. His training focus seemed to evolve over time from superficial skills which were good for getting numbers or generating light banter to an inner game and self improvement emphasis which taught men how to internalize, over time, real alpha male thinking.

This is the part of PUA that I think works because they have managed to condense entire books on sexual attraction behavior and psychology down to a few basic interaction and confidence principles. The dressing like a clown stuff and other gimmicks is best left for the "pros" who have a name and reputation to flaunt.
I've observed dozens of cases where men, usually locals, have slowly won a woman's heart over, just by being politely persistent, ever present, but usually composed and in control of their emotions. Often, the woman in question is much more physically attractive than the guy. The game can go on for months or even years and sometimes the girl dates playboys or foreigners during the process. Of course, the guy realizes that these 'romeos' will probably disappear in short order and when they do, he's there to comfort her. Now in America, he would probably be a permanent friend at best, the understanding shoulder to cry on. But many Chinese women I've seen get genuinely touched by such guys and will quickly get serious and marry them, especially once they reach mid-late 20s.

It works but this sort of cultural courtship evolved after generations of men promising to marry virgins and be provider husbands. It was done out of necessity. Now in the modern era women have more choices and this kind of "beta" courtship process may work in parts of Asia but what you end up with is relationships where respect is fleeting. Women may marry someone like this as a safety and because it's socially acceptable but down the road these men get seriously henpecked by their wives. I don't believe it's a healthy foundation and I think a lot of Chinese women marry for convenience and financial stability.

There are quite a few members of my extended family that married wives like this and i'm sure they were the "beta" choice throughout their relationship. In the end it seems like both parties are incredibly miserable. The man for putting all his eggs in one basket and the woman for settling on someone who does not truly interest her sexually or emotionally but managed to woo her through comfort.


Let's not forget, Repatriate, that most of the geniuses, great writers, men who will find a place in history are beta males and do a lot to improve the intelligence of the gene pool. Beta males, in my esteem, have higher IQ, and made America what it is with their brainpower.
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Postby ahardy57 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:59 am

NorthAmericanguy, don't get me wrong. Kissing my feet is ok by me, and I don't mind at all. But it has to be from the man I RESPECT, who has climbed the pinnacle. It won't do from a male who has not won me over. The topic here is what women tell guys to get other women. If she doesn't like you, no amount of kissing her feet will work, you would likely to get thrown out of the door. Not you, personally NorthAmericanguy, but the man who kisses a woman without earning her respect. Just the truth. Not the "be yourself" old repetition. I have been lurking here for a reason without saying anything but I just wanted to let you into the mind of one woman, one of my species. Only when she starts looking up to you, then you can kiss her feet, otherwise, she will lose respect for you.
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Postby Repatriate » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:27 am

ahardy57 wrote:
Let's not forget, Repatriate, that most of the geniuses, great writers, men who will find a place in history are beta males and do a lot to improve the intelligence of the gene pool. Beta males, in my esteem, have higher IQ, and made America what it is with their brainpower.

In the past a lot of Beta looking guys were actually Alphas. Benjamin Franklin for example. :lol:

Strong muscled men were considered farmer types, soldiers, or yeomen. Attractive to the lower class "proles" but unfit for any station beyond that. It's only since the advent of industrialization and the rapid middle class growth that these traits have become the social norm. That's why some Europeans like the French tend not to focus on big muscles as much. It's not as much as part of their culture.

In the U.S. the Hollywood media and social norms values buff exciting men. Then again the whole term Alpha is a bit misleading since a lot of it is simply state of mind. It's not really the "biggest" and "strongest" leading the pack but more the most confident and socially skilled individual.
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Postby ahardy57 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:43 am

Jackal, I did not make the rules. From time immemorial men have had to do certain task to gain the woman. Marriages were arranged with the economical status always kept in mind. Read history. It sometimes had little to do with sexual attraction. Now that women, are free to choose who they want to marry, the laws governing survival, is now coupled with the revived chemistry that has always been with us since the stone age. If you make the wrong choice, you suffer or die prematurely. To have chemistry with the wrong person can mean death. Personally, I don't mind marrying poor if I can get the right chemistry and faithfulness. I am just trying to get you into the minds of some women, not trying to say things that are not observable by others.
I will tell you a man introduced himself to me, nice man, later he told me he killed someone and spent nine years in jail for murder. For months this man has been chasing me, romantically. He said he loved me. I have never felt so much chemistry in my life, except with one man in the past and now this man. I know I could marry him if he becomes a different person. Even if he is poor, and has nothing to give me. He is all alpha. Talks like this, "What can I do to get you in my bed, grab you by the hair and drag you into my cave" and on and on. Muscles, tattoos, the whole nine yards, talks about who he beat up in the past, what he's going to do with other people. Even had the SWAT team with sharpshooters after him early this month. Tough guy. But he makes me feel a certain way. I cannot control that. I have not let him kiss me, because I know that It will be wrong to get involved romantically with this guy. Who knows if he won't kill me down the line. I still care about him, but it is dangerous for me.
Yet, the chemistry. If he changes his life, I might like one day to be his girl.

Why do girls go for convicts and ex-prisoners? They are everything we girls are not. Strong, tough, reckless hard, confident, unpredictable in their behavior. It takes us out of our feminine lifestyle of 'don't do this, don't do that'. I myself, was shocked at my primal responses to him, and wondered at first if there was something wrong with me or twisted.

But no, he brings to my mind the male before he urges became tamed. And in civilized society we need tame men, or serious disorder will ensue. But somewhere in women the prototype persist. We want the nice guys to be there for us but we long for the savage male. He talks about how he likes Conan the Barbarian. But in some ways, he has become Conan the Barbarian to me.

But the beta guys make the most dependable husbands.
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Postby zzzz » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:26 am

I find the alpha-beta male talk in this thread to be a lot of bullshit. I say this as someone who was in sales and dominated the other guys. Guys who were much better looking than me and got more girls came to me for advice. I would take the lead many times on arguing with the boss for instance to represent the sales people's position (they always wanted more and to pay us less). Sales people, both women and men, around the office would defer to me and ask me questions a lot. Does this make me an alpha male? Hardly. If you want to believe in that stuff I can't see more than maybe 1 in 1000 guys being an alpha.
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Postby djfourmoney » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:50 am

zzzz wrote:I find the alpha-beta male talk in this thread to be a lot of bullshit. I say this as someone who was in sales and dominated the other guys. Guys who were much better looking than me and got more girls came to me for advice. I would take the lead many times on arguing with the boss for instance to represent the sales people's position (they always wanted more and to pay us less). Sales people, both women and men, around the office would defer to me and ask me questions a lot. Does this make me an alpha male? Hardly. If you want to believe in that stuff I can't see more than maybe 1 in 1000 guys being an alpha.


I concur ZZZZ, I have defied/challenged authority, been asked for advice about Women by other men and about Men by other women. My advice is usually spot-on. Its about taking control of a situation.

I don't think the Alpha-Beta mythology applies to modern society so much. While Career Criminals, Gangsters and Biker Types appear sexy ahardy, you said it yourself, so-called Betas are vastly more stable and reliable IF boring. Desiring excitement and growing out of that comes with maturity, often times that comes too late for most American Women, only when their market value goes down.

You can always tell by what they say in their profiles... Its kinda like buying a Sports Car you know the previous owner has driven hard.
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Postby MrPeabody » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:57 am

I hate the alpha male talk too. We are human beings and not apes. It’s just more American pop philosophy which I avoid like I avoid poison. George Washington was rejected by the woman he was really hot for, and settled for Martha. I guess he wasn’t an alpha male.
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Postby ahardy57 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:30 pm

zzzz, I did not make the rules. The topic here is 'women giving the wrong advice to men'. I just was revealing my inner automatic responses when I meet a male. I did not create myself that way.

Fortunately, choice is something we all have, and I am NEVER rude to a man if he approaches me. And given enough time, the gentle male as I prefer to call the beta male, can work their way into my heart as any other man. It just takes longer.
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Postby ahardy57 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:58 pm

DJfourmoney, men in leadership position attracts women. If he has a job, his chance of having a girlfriend goes up.
Fortunately, for men, so called ugly men have girlfriends and wives. It doesn't matter what a man's attributes, there is a girl out there who will like him, and fall in love with him. Look around you at the mall, fat guy, old guy, bald guy, limping guy, even homeless guy has a girl on his arms, and if she really loves him he's the cutest thing on the planet. Often what gets the girl to look pass the girl's first responses, is if the man who keeps trying and learning better ways to her heart. When a girl falls in love, she overlooks just about everything, and will play fondly with the potbelly of her husband. He becomes the best in her eyes. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
In many cultures they prize different physical attributes. Some cultures like plump people, some cultures most every man is short, and they are attractive to the females. What we call 'handsome' here might just be an illusion. In the end, only heart persist.[/u]
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Postby ahardy57 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:06 pm

catameran wrote:I hate the alpha male talk too. We are human beings and not apes. It’s just more American pop philosophy which I avoid like I avoid poison. George Washington was rejected by the woman he was really hot for, and settled for Martha. I guess he wasn’t an alpha male.


I hate this talk too, you can change the terminology but the principles still will persist. First of all let me say: Man is a soul. He is a spiritual being. That is his inner worth.

But in dating, very few people goes for the girl or guy on virtues alone. Virtue is what in the end lasts, but being good alone, from what I see, does not get you the girl.
The courtship process has to be gone through. In the West, there is almost no escaping it. Blame the guys in history who changed the courtship rules to what it is today.
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Postby djfourmoney » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:31 am

ahardy -

I don't disagree at all. I agree that things are different in other countries and that we are often times in the West comparing our culture with the local culture, this includes body shape, eye shape and skin tone. Anglo culture and its forces has Korean women bleaching their skin and reshaping their eyes for example.

What I am mainly saying is American Women, even more than Canadian or European Women often times want the Bad with the Good. Which has given rise to that mythical beast known as a Corporate Thug. Somebody who is street smart, confrontational with strangers, has an "edge" to him yet works a job that pays 6 digits. All to often those men are Professional Athletes, such as Football or Basketball Players. NBA wives have often told new wives to be ready to deal with certain aspects of "the life". Because standard operating procedure for marriage doesn't apply in these worlds.

Western European women don't have the fear of being unprotected unless you count FSU/Poor EU countries. In FSU security is an issue because they have an underdeveloped middle class with the vast majority of the working people somewhere near the poverty line, this includes most public service jobs like teachers.

Most American Women are looking to move upmarket when they marry. This includes dating certain types of men based on earning potential. Seldom do you find women who say things like "I don't care what kind of job he works as long as he's happy". That could mean Jason is happy being a Wal-Mart Cashier and doesn't want anymore responsibility. Are most women going to accept that? Hell No! I'm surprise American Women aren't more callous and demand he make a certain amount. Some women do that by saying "I want a Professional, College Educated Man", that's code for incomes over $35K a year min, but around $50K with the potential to make much more with additional training or additional degrees.

European women hardly ever discussed what my job was. They may have asked what I did and I told them, never heard about it after that. American Men are guilty of changing the rules, but Women's Lib 2.0 was bent on equalizing education (Title 9) and equalizing job opportunities, being a stay at home mother was beneath them so also asking for paid maternity leave and things of that nature were never brought up.

There is only a Rugged Individualism debate in America, which many women buy into.
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Postby Jackal » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:39 am

catameran wrote:I hate the alpha male talk too. We are human beings and not apes. It’s just more American pop philosophy which I avoid like I avoid poison.

Exactly. We already know what American women are like. We already know they are highly attracted to thugs. We don't need the details about how particular AWs would like to be gangbanged by convicts. Or at least I have no interest in such things.

The whole point of this site is foreign women, and different types of men are valued abroad.

In Europe, women like thin, fit soccer player types. They aren't looking for guys with enormous muscles who have spent the last 10 years raping men in high-security prisons.
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