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Why do women give bad advice to men about dating?

Discuss dating, relationships and foreign women.

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Postby momopi » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:38 am

catameran wrote:I hate the alpha male talk too. We are human beings and not apes. It’s just more American pop philosophy which I avoid like I avoid poison. George Washington was rejected by the woman he was really hot for, and settled for Martha. I guess he wasn’t an alpha male.


George Washington was tall enough (6'2"), but he was more of a shrewd social climber & businessman than alpha male. He had a weak jaw from bad teeth (too much sweets) and only had one teeth when he was made President. He had custom dentures made to give him a strong jawline for meeting people and modeling for portraits. He also had smallpox, which damaged his skin and probably made him more self-conscious about his appearance.

Washington was from a well to do, but not rich family. He went to school but never had a proper college education. The women that he chased were older and wealthy. This was back in the colonial era when aristocracy and social class was important. If you married a proper lady, she came with a dowry as part of her inheritance. Martha was an older widow who already had 4 kids, but she came with her ex-husband's 18,000 acre (!) estate, plus her own family's $$. I don't think he settled for Martha, I think he married into money, lots of it.

Now, before anyone start calling him a gold digger, please keep in mind that this was one of the few ways that a poor-er gentlemen can elevate his social-economic standing in an era when social mobility was limited. Back then marriage with proper ladies brought assets to a man, in contrast to today, when your spouse is more likely to bring her credit card debts.
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Postby ahardy57 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:02 am

djfourmoney wrote:ahardy -

I don't disagree at all. I agree that things are different in other countries and that we are often times in the West comparing our culture with the local culture, this includes body shape, eye shape and skin tone. Anglo culture and its forces has Korean women bleaching their skin and reshaping their eyes for example.

What I am mainly saying is American Women, even more than Canadian or European Women often times want the Bad with the Good. Which has given rise to that mythical beast known as a Corporate Thug. Somebody who is street smart, confrontational with strangers, has an "edge" to him yet works a job that pays 6 digits. All to often those men are Professional Athletes, such as Football or Basketball Players. NBA wives have often told new wives to be ready to deal with certain aspects of "the life". Because standard operating procedure for marriage doesn't apply in these worlds.

Western European women don't have the fear of being unprotected unless you count FSU/Poor EU countries. In FSU security is an issue because they have an underdeveloped middle class with the vast majority of the working people somewhere near the poverty line, this includes most public service jobs like teachers.

Most American Women are looking to move upmarket when they marry. This includes dating certain types of men based on earning potential. Seldom do you find women who say things like "I don't care what kind of job he works as long as he's happy". That could mean Jason is happy being a Wal-Mart Cashier and doesn't want anymore responsibility. Are most women going to accept that? Hell No! I'm surprise American Women aren't more callous and demand he make a certain amount. Some women do that by saying "I want a Professional, College Educated Man", that's code for incomes over $35K a year min, but around $50K with the potential to make much more with additional training or additional degrees.

European women hardly ever discussed what my job was. They may have asked what I did and I told them, never heard about it after that. American Men are guilty of changing the rules, but Women's Lib 2.0 was bent on equalizing education (Title 9) and equalizing job opportunities, being a stay at home mother was beneath them so also asking for paid maternity leave and things of that nature were never brought up.

There is only a Rugged Individualism debate in America, which many women buy into.



Djfourmoney, you seem to know a lot about dating conditions around the world. People adapt to the conditions around them, so if a woman was born in a given country, she will act like her fellow country women. We do this to survive. Individualism puts a lot of pressure on everyone. It's an unnatural pressure, that puts everyone against each other in an unnatural race. The weaker will fall. Naturally, women look for a strong running partner who can protect her from life's assaults along the way, and ease her into old age with love and security, not a nursing home, or dying of cold on the city streets.

Societies that value human connections, will not put this undue burden on a woman. So she is more secure in herself, and she feels no need to look for the 'strong male' to protect her. I do not believe in the feminist values. I never agreed to them, neither do I live by them. I wished it had never happened. I feel for the victims of this ideology - men, women, children, who have had to suffer from the feminist propaganda. And believe me, we all suffer. Feminism is single-handedly destroying our society.

I want people to realize on here, that I am not trying to down anyone, or minimize their pain. I am simply giving a woman's perspective on dating. Facts are hard and bitter at times, and sometimes it can shed light on certain situation. Knowledge can sometimes make a difference. Taking advice like giving flowers to a woman to win her, does not work. You can only give flowers to a woman if you have her respect and attention. If she does not look up to you, no amount of wooing her will work.
A lot of guys might want to know why they have not been successful with women in America. I can't speak for all women, but I can let you in my inner responses.
When I see a man I have never met, all my defenses go up. I have an automatic check and within seconds have designated him foe, or maybe a threat or OK. To not have those defenses up, I feel I will die. It's all on a subconscious level. Rape, death, kidnapping, these are fears that many of us women believe are ever present out there when we leave our homes.
Does he have a gun? Will he pull me into a dark alley and rape me? Is he going to attack me? Everywhere you go you are warned that you can be raped by strangers. We are raised in this environment of fear.
Most guys out here are just going about their business, and are harmless. But we have an image of guys out there as hunters in the perennial jungle, and we the potential victim.

Ever so often you see a woman that was murdered by a man, and this strengthen our resolve to be more defensive. Women's culture is a culture laced with fear, protectiveness, and other women giving unsolicited advice. 'Be careful', 'don't do this', if you do such and such, you are going to end up this way', awful catastrophizing. 'Don't do this, don't do that,' it's a wonder we talk to any male strangers at all.

I, myself, have chosen to live without fear, but then there will be many women to warn me that I am a fool or something terrible will, happen to me. Yes, we are told often how bad men are. And often it is the experiences of someone's ex-husband or ex-boyfriend that we hear about, so they jump to conclusions: 'All men are evil' 'There are not any good men out there.' We women live in a different world, many women protect the weaker, less sophisticated women, a kind of invisible sisterhood, of people giving advice. Some advice is sound, other advice is just emotional harping. But by the time we get out on the streets we see every man as a potential enemy, killer rapist, kidnapper, pervert, potential stalker or all the above. if you say otherwise, there are many women who will remind you as often as possible how naive you are.

No wonder, the American man faces many obstacles to overcome before he gets past those defenses. It must be a terrible thing to have to battle so many defenses. I can see why you guys on here are feeling the way you do. I am not all women. But I can say, that if you keep showing up in an activity groups with both gender, and give women a chance to know you and see what a wonderful person you are, the defenses might drop, and you will see them disarm and the possibility of having a romantic relationship with a girl becomes very real. But trying to meet them cold on the street in this country, might lead to a lot of rejection. Remember, we women, from the cradle are taught that we must protect ourselves from "men". So bars, and one time meets will be harder to find dates. Church groups, volunteer work, at the job, in you neighborhood, show up, show up, be kind to all, do work for the community, and when the woman sees your strength and kindness, she will remember that, and will usually disarm.
I am interested in finding happiness in a more inclusive culture
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Postby The_Adventurer » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:15 am

ahardy57 wrote:So bars, and one time meets will be harder to find dates. Church groups, volunteer work, at the job, in you neighborhood, show up, show up, be kind to all, do work for the community, and when the woman sees your strength and kindness, she will remember that, and will usually disarm.


And by that time the woman will have already had 47 one night stands with bad boys, 4 kids from unknown fathers and nobody will want her anymore.
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Postby ajushi » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:56 am

Well, simply put,

At least 1/2 the women in the USA are all completely mentally screwed because A) they develop in a society that makes women out to be men and B) they come from fractured families in a psychotic society with a 60+ % divorce rate and as a result have abandonment issues and psychological trauma. Therefore, most of what comes out of their mouths is essentially crazy, even when they are relatively normal and functional.
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Postby ahardy57 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:52 am

Terrence wrote:
ahardy57 wrote:So bars, and one time meets will be harder to find dates. Church groups, volunteer work, at the job, in you neighborhood, show up, show up, be kind to all, do work for the community, and when the woman sees your strength and kindness, she will remember that, and will usually disarm.


And by that time the woman will have already had 47 one night stands with bad boys, 4 kids from unknown fathers and nobody will want her anymore.


That is why you chose groups with quality people. There are women out there who don't hate men.
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Postby Winston » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:49 pm

Questions for everyone here:

- First, how do you all define an alpha male vs. a beta male? Most guys I've seen do not fit solely in either category. They have mixed traits of both. It's not like in the movies where every alpha male character does and says everything that is alpha-like, and every beta male character acts and says whatever is beta-like, and every nerd acts nerdy in every way and in every action, etc. Real people aren't like that.

Even if you act confident and dominating, but you look small or beta-like, women will still treat you like a beta male and will think you are just a delusional beta male trying to act like an alpha male. Right? It all comes down to looks, status, power and money.

Suppose a short guy with average looks becomes a doctor and earns a high income. Is he a beta or alpha male?

Or, suppose a guy is tall and good looking and women find him likable and funny, but he has little money and comes from a blue collar background. Is he an alpha or a beta male?

Very few guys have it all. Most guys have some alpha and some beta traits. So I'm confused as to what is alpha and what is beta. What if a guy is a mixture of both? Is he a semi-alpha or semi-beta?

- Ahardy: You say you will give beta males a chance if they win you over with perseverance and play the courtship game well. Well how can beta males do that, when the women they like usually don't even meet them again? If they call her, she makes excuses or says she is on the way out or screens out his calls. So if she doesn't even see him or make time for him, how can he even have a chance at courting her?

I don't know about you, but many Western women are like that. That's what we are complaining about. That's why I can have 100 girls' phone numbers but not get a single date.

Ahardy, may I ask, where are you from exactly and what generation are you? Are you Generation X, Y, or before that?

Also, per your signature, you say you're looking for more inclusive cultures. Does that mean that you are "happier abroad" too and tired of American culture? If so, why? Are you different than the typical woman in America?

Would you consider Albert Einstein an alpha or beta male? On the one hand, physically he looks like a beta male. But he got famous and a lot of respect and admiration for his work and accomplishments. So, what category would he be in?
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Postby zzzz » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:11 pm

Winston wrote:- First, how do you all define an alpha male vs. a beta male? Most guys I've seen do not fit solely in either category. They have mixed traits of both. It's not like in the movies where every alpha male character does and says everything that is alpha-like, and every beta male character acts and says whatever is beta-like, and every nerd acts nerdy in every way and in every action, etc. Real people aren't like that.

Very few guys have it all. Most guys have some alpha and some beta traits. So I'm confused as to what is alpha and what is beta. What if a guy is a mixture of both? Is he a semi-alpha or semi-beta?


I think this idea of alpha-beta comes from animals, right? In the animal world looks and health are what lead often to success since they use physical skills to capture food. I guess when you are a teenager and being supported by parents this is the time when I feel like alpha-beta might exist in humans. Everyone remembers high school and middle school, right? 8) At this point in most people's lives they don't do much and the only thing that really seems to separate them is looks and physical attributes. Teenagers and young adults are also much more likely to fight like animals to demonstrate dominance. :lol: Once you start to get older and enter the real world it becomes increasingly complex to the point that you'll never really be able to judge most people like this. That's why I said maybe 1 in 1000 could be a called an alpha male, the guy who is rich, successful, social, perfect looking, and on. Of course such an "alpha male" is not going to have time for pretty much anyone except his own wants I think, so women chasing him would be like us going after Victoria Secret models. Pointless. Yet maybe women hold out and hope for a one night stand with a guy like this and hope to get a baby with one encounter? Very, very, very few people don't have obvious negatives to go along with their positive traits.

- Ahardy: You say you will give beta males a chance if they win you over with perseverance and play the courtship game well. Well how can beta males do that, when the women they like usually don't even meet them again? If they call her, she makes excuses or says she is on the way out or screens out his calls. So if she doesn't even see him or make time for him, how can he even have a chance at courting her?


This is just my experience but if a women doesn't let you have sex with her relatively quickly it either will take an extreme amount of time/effort or likely will never happen since she's banging some other guys.
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Postby Winston » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:17 pm

Jackal wrote:
BellaRuth wrote:There's a load of men who'd never give me a chance cos I don't have big tits/I'm not tanned.

Now you've piqued my curiosity. Are you a very small and thin woman? Do you get mistaken for a high school student?

And just for the record, I think you give good advice and seem quite sweet.


Since she didn't answer that, I'll answer for her (since I can say some good things about it and since I've seen her pictures). She is light skinned and thin, and looks like a shy, sweet, warm girl with a rich soul. She is good looking and pretty, and looks like a girl in her 20's. She might look a tad bit like a "bookworm type" but not a nerdy one. Instead there is a sweet gentle and soulful in her facial expression.

I think deep down, she is an evolved person or an "old soul" type who does not let the cruelties and shallowness of society get to her or corrupt her. Either that, or she has been sheltered around good caring people and spared the cruelties of the world (which I think is a good thing by the way), and hence is more optimistic and less jaded than other women. As the saying goes, "An optimist is someone who doesn't have much experience."

Is my depiction of you pretty accurate BellaRuth? :)
Last edited by Winston on Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BellaRuth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:35 pm

Winston wrote:
Jackal wrote:
BellaRuth wrote:There's a load of men who'd never give me a chance cos I don't have big tits/I'm not tanned.

Now you've piqued my curiosity. Are you a very small and thin woman? Do you get mistaken for a high school student?

And just for the record, I think you give good advice and seem quite sweet.


Since she didn't answer that, I'll answer for her (since I can say some good things about it and since I've seen her pictures). She is light skinned and thin, and looks like a shy, sweet, warm girl with a rich soul. She is good looking and pretty, and looks like a girl in her 20's. She might look a tad bit like a "bookworm type" but not a nerdy one. Instead there is a sweet gentle and soulful in her facial expression.

I think deep down, she is an evolved person or an "old soul" type who does not let the cruelties and shallowness of society get to her or corrupt her. Either that, or she has been sheltered around good caring people and spared the cruelties of the world (which I think is a good thing by the way), and hence is more optimistic and less jaded than other women.

Is my depiction of you pretty accurate BellaRuth? :)


Hahaha! I'm blushing.

I'm strangely annoyed by the fact you think I look like a bookworm. It's totally true that I am one. Maybe it's something you can't hide.

That's a very complimentary view of me.

I haven't been sheltered :wink: but other than that, yes I am definitely highly evolved, soulful and good-looking! You wanted another raving review for your e-book?
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Postby Winston » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:32 pm

Haha Bella. Well when I said "bookworm", to me that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Bookworm types are more intelligent anyway. Plus I didn't mean a nerdy type of bookworm, but rather a pretty type of bookworm. There are good looking bookworm types you know? :)

But technically I meant you looked kind of "borderline" bookworm, not the stereotypical prudish librarian type. lol

Btw, when I say that you are evolved and more soulful, I also mean that you seem to have the ability to detach from things and see a bigger picture than most, rather than get too emotionally involved in the "roller coaster of life". Whereas most people react on instinct to the ups and downs of their life (they are happy when things are good and upset when things are not) and care about what others think, you seem to be more conscious about your actions and feelings and able to say to yourself

"Hey, things may not be going my way right now, but that's ok. I don't have to get angry or depressed about it. I can choose not to."

thus that allows you to act from a more "conscious" level, rather than an instinctual reaction like most people would.

Is that pretty accurate?

Also, when I see your face, for some reason the first thing that comes to my mind is that of a female character from the romanticized Middle Ages, like a character out of Robin Hood (Maid Marion?) or something. Has anyone else ever told you that?

Oh and yes, if you can post a raving review for my ebooks, that'd be great :)
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Postby Jackal » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:44 pm

Winston wrote:Haha Bella. Well when I said "bookworm", to me that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Bookworm types are more intelligent anyway. Plus I didn't mean a nerdy type of bookworm, but rather a pretty type of bookworm. There are good looking bookworm types you know? :)

I guess versions of "worm" never sound too good... perhaps she's a "book butterfly"...

Image
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Postby Winston » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:52 pm

Jackal wrote:
Winston wrote:Haha Bella. Well when I said "bookworm", to me that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Bookworm types are more intelligent anyway. Plus I didn't mean a nerdy type of bookworm, but rather a pretty type of bookworm. There are good looking bookworm types you know? :)

I guess versions of "worm" never sound too good... perhaps she's a "book butterfly"...

Image


I'd endorse that term. Even though it's not a standard term, it rings true for what I meant. lol
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Postby BellaRuth » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:02 pm

Winston wrote:Btw, when I say that you are evolved and more soulful, I also mean that you seem to have the ability to detach from things and see a bigger picture than most, rather than get too emotionally involved in the "roller coaster of life". Whereas most people react on instinct to the ups and downs of their life (they are happy when things are good and upset when things are not) and care about what others think, you seem to be more conscious about your actions and feelings and able to say to yourself

"Hey, things may not be going my way right now, but that's ok. I don't have to get angry or depressed about it. I can choose not to."

thus that allows you to act from a more "conscious" level, rather than an instinctual reaction like most people would.

Is that pretty accurate?


I guess so. I'm extremely easy-going and detest drama. But I didn't think that was unusual.

I think compared to Americans most people in other countries would seem less... 'passionate'. Here it's still seen as better to get on with life- 'keep calm and carry on', that kind of thing. ;)

Also, when I see your face, for some reason the first thing that comes to my mind is that of a female character from the romanticized Middle Ages, like a character out of Robin Hood (Maid Marion?) or something. Has anyone else ever told you that?

Oh and yes, if you can post a raving review for my ebooks, that'd be great :)


Unfortunately I posted both reviews a while ago :)

No one has ever mentioned Maid Marian to me, haha. Or anything from the Middle Ages. Usually they say I look like the lovechild of Scarlett Johansson and Adriana Lima.

(I'm joking guys, get your cursors off the PM icon. Unless God answers my prayers whilst I'm sitting here.)

Jackal- book-butterfly is much nicer. I haven't read a book for ages though. I love to read but I get obsessed and stay up til 4am, so I'm scared of starting anything new.
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Postby The_Adventurer » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:01 am

zzzz wrote:This is just my experience but if a women doesn't let you have sex with her relatively quickly it either will take an extreme amount of time/effort or likely will never happen since she's banging some other guys.


Yeah. If you don't get it quick, you've fallen into the friend category and are likely to stay there.

I never thought about this before, but here's an interesting concept. Most of my relationships were usually with girls I was not trying to get, and usually began with sex on the first or second "date" (I don't date really). Any girl that I was trying to get, I usually became the "friend" and often the shoulder to cry on when the dudes she was banging treated her like dirt. It's like when you're not looking for it, girls come out of the woodwork, but when you chase it, it inevitably runs away.
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Postby zzzz » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:57 am

Yeah some truth to that. I think part of what you are talking about is because in those scenarios you are being picked by the woman. I always think that seems to work better myself as women are ultimately much pickier than men. If any nice looking healthy woman comes on to us we'll usually go for it.
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