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Did Taiwan ever really belong to China?

If you're a history buff, love to talk about history and watch the History Channel, this is the board for that.

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ph_visitor
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Post by ph_visitor » February 6th, 2012, 4:25 am

If any land was ever on any China map, since 5,000 BC, then they want it back. They also want the gold and museum pieces, everywhere. They want it all back.

All of it.

zboy1
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Post by zboy1 » February 6th, 2012, 7:24 am

ph_visitor wrote:If any land was ever on any China map, since 5,000 BC, then they want it back. They also want the gold and museum pieces, everywhere. They want it all back.

All of it.
True! Also, many Chinese are also immigrating in huge numbers to the Russian Far East and eventually, they will take over the country! That's going to cause a shit-load lot of conflict with Russia in the near future!

Falcon
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Post by Falcon » February 6th, 2012, 8:01 am

Before 1949, yes.

But post 1949:

De facto, Taiwan is a completely separate country because the actual government is simply not the same as that of the PRC Communist government. The entire "Is Taiwan a part of China?" issue all has to do with how everything is going to look on paper. To be honest, the issue is quite silly in many ways. This is not North Korea vs. South Korea, but rather some silly arguments about names.

Culturally though, Taiwan is more similar to China than Singapore or Tibet (vs. heavily populated states in eastern China).

Now because of silly KMT (which is pro-"Taiwan is part of China") vs. DPP (which is pro-"Taiwan independence") politics, major landmarks can be screwed around with from time to time. The last time I was in Taiwan, there was no changing of the guard ceremony at the Chiang Kai-Shek Memorial Hall, but there was still a changing of the guard ceremony at the Sun Yat-Sen Memorial Hall. The reason is, many Taiwanese believe Chiang Kai-Shek was the "bad guy" responsible for the White Terror, while Sun Yat-Sen was the "good guy" who had great democratic ideals and had never terrorized Taiwan. Sun Yat-Sen is basically the Chinese George Washington, while Chiang Kai-Shek is the Chinese Abraham Lincoln (except a little worse).
momopi wrote:1. You're in Taiwan. Go ask a Taiwanese nationalist.
As a side note, both of my grandfathers are Mainlanders who had served in the KMT military. Both of them do not speak Min Nan a.k.a. Taiwanese.


Before: "Great Centrality and Perfect Uprightness" ("大中至正") - This is because another name for Chiang Kai-Shek was 蔣中正 (Jiang Zhongzheng).

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Oh no, destroying Nationalist heritage!

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After: "Liberty Square" (自由廣場) - This slogan has DPP overtones.

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Chen Shui-Bian is making Chiang Kai-Shek turn around in his grave.

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But now that the KMT is back in power with its beloved Ma Ying-Jeou, the memorial hall has now been "restored" to its original KMT-era state.

ph_visitor
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Post by ph_visitor » February 6th, 2012, 8:28 am

Falcon wrote:Before 1949, yes.

But post 1949:
None of that matters.

The Mainland wants it all back.

Period.

Rationality, arguments, logic, reason - they don't matter.

They want it all back.

momopi
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Post by momopi » February 6th, 2012, 8:35 am

Chiang is not the founding father of ROC. There is no reason why his memorial hall should be taller (249 ft) than the Sun Yat-Sen memorial hall (97 ft) next door.


This man:
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Is a better and greater person than this man:
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Last edited by momopi on February 6th, 2012, 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Falcon
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Post by Falcon » February 6th, 2012, 8:36 am

ph_visitor wrote:None of that matters.

The Mainland wants it all back.

Period.

Rationality, arguments, logic, reason - they don't matter.

They want it all back.
It's all a farce. Mainland China can easily take out Taiwan if they really do want to do it. But instead, they bicker about UN membership, argue about direct flight connections, and at most, scare Taiwan by messing around with Taiwan-owned Kinmen Island off the coast of Fujian.

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Why wouldn't China be more aggressive? Because it all boils down to money.

The reason China wouldn't do anything more is because the Taiwanese and Chinese economies are highly dependent on each other. It's an economic symbiosis. Same with China and Hong Kong, China and the United States, China and Japan. Forget about the political histories of those former enemy countries. GDP's have to be taken care of.
Last edited by Falcon on February 6th, 2012, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Falcon
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Post by Falcon » February 6th, 2012, 8:41 am

momopi wrote:Chiang is not the founding father of ROC. There is no reason why his memorial hall should be taller (249 ft) than the Sun Yat-Sen memorial hall (97 ft) next door.
Similarly, Lincoln is not the founding father of the U.S. There is no reason why Washington should get a big white stick, while Lincoln gets a fancy building adorned with Doric columns.

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Post by chileanueva » February 6th, 2012, 9:07 am

The rising Chinese dragon is feared by the U.S. government. That is why Barack Obama is shifting his focus on the Far East. The U.S. has pretty much bombed the shit out of the Middle East and dominated it politically. The competition with China over natural resources in Africa is apparent with the invasion of Libya.

China doesn't want U.S. on its borders or at its footsteps. Like the Soviet Union, China wants client states to act as a buffer between them and potential invaders. The U.S. conquered most of the Pacific with its war with Japan. The threat of Chinese military expansionism is worrisome to Washington.

The Chinese are good at business, have deep pockets, exercise soft power to influence potential states to ally with their economic interests. America is a blundering fool that thinks brawn and force will intimidate others to fall into line. China will use economic diplomacy and debt forgiveness to entice other countries to join its agenda.

Taiwan is f***ed if U.S. didn't protect them.
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Post by momopi » February 6th, 2012, 10:48 am

...for some strange odd reason, ph_visitor reminds me of Mr. DiscoJoe. ;p

China could've militarily taken HK and Macao years ago, but refrained from doing so to play politics. Portugal actually offered to return Macao earlier, but Beijing opted to hold off on it in case if the handover didn't go smoothly and might impact the HK handover. Obviously, HK is worth a lot more than Macao.

Up until the recent decade, China did not have the conventional capability to take down Taiwan. The sea lift capability was rather limited and they could only transport about 1 division worth of troops at a time plus air drops. But since then the Chinese Navy and conventional capability has grown significantly. Regardless, if a conventional invasion was being prepare, it'd be most difficult to hide it as the Chinese Navy would have to start taking ships up from trade to improve its sea lift capability. Taiwan's military is not so weak that it'd just roll over, but if the ROCAF cannot achieve air superiority, then it's unlikely that the much smaller and weaker ROCN can hold off the Chinese Navy.

As for China's territorial claims, like bargaining in the Asian market, you start with the best possible position and negotiate from there. For example, when China was negotiating with Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, the Chinese side started with the Qing Empire maximum extent position, but settled at 20% of the disputed territory with Kazakhstan, and ~30% with Kyrgyzstan. Beijing had claimed about 11,000 sq miles of territory along the Pamir Mountains, but settled with Tajikistan for only 386 sq miles (3.5%). Beijing can be very flexible with territorial negotiations, it's actually the opposition that blames the CCP leadership for "giving too much away". But from Beijing's perspective, they're gaining territory that the PRC didn't hold previously, and they'd rather maintain good relations with SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization) countries for long-term political gains. The SCO started with only 5 countries ("Shanghai Five") and now the attendance list (members and observers) has grown much bigger:

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I think given choice, Beijing would be willing to sacrifice some of its claims in the South China Sea in exchange for political gains with ASEAN. As for Taiwan, IMO the best time/opportunity for Taiwanese nationalists to declare TI was back in 1989, but that wasn't politically feasible at the time and they missed the boat that they couldn't get tickets to board. When A-Bien was President in Taiwan, Hu Jintao told Taiwanese reporters that he'd be happy to welcome Chen to visit China and meet him if Chen had wished to do so, but on the condition that Chen accepts the 1992 consensus with "difference in interpretations". That is, Chen was not obligated to toe Bejing's line on what the 1992 consensus mean exactly. Hu was willing to give Chen lots of political wiggle room and maintain the status quo, but it was impossible for Chen to accept, considering his and his party's stronger pro-TI stance at the time. So that boat was also missed, leaving the DPP with a weaker China policy today.

Beijing is well aware that the DPP with support from Taiwan's 70% Hoklo demographic is not going away. They're not opposed to meeting with DPP political leadership for purpose of maintaining the status quo and bide for time. From their long-term perspective, they've already already waited 60+ years, it's fine to wait some more to pull Taiwan into PRC's sphere of influence. A full reunification with Taiwan turned into a province of the PRC is not a realistic prospect.

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Post by Winston » February 6th, 2012, 4:51 pm

momopi wrote:
Winston wrote:Thanks for your responses.
A few questions:
1. If Taiwan never really belonged to China, then why does it need to "declare independence"? Something in basic logic doesn't seem to add up about that. And why doesn't the US government recognize Taiwan as independent if it's always been independent?
2. I'm sure the history books in China say that Taiwan belonged to China before, while the history books in Taiwan say otherwise. How do you know which history books are correct and which are lying? What do Western history books say?
3. Do you think this topic may get this site banned from China? If so, then I can't really live there, because I won't be able to operate this site from there.
4. Speaking of sites banned in China, it doesn't seem consistent. Some people there say that they can access this site, while others don't seem to be able to access any foreign sites at all. Are there different censorship operations in different regions in China? How does it work? Who decides which sites to censor? Does a person or computer make the decision? And can banned sites appeal their censorship in China? What if someone tries to use http://www.hidemyass.com in China?
Thanks for all your answers.

1. You're in Taiwan. Go ask a Taiwanese nationalist.

2. Taiwan was part of the Qing Empire from 1683-1895. What history or text book in Taiwan claims that Taiwan was never a part of Qing Empire?
One of my uncles is a fanatical DPP activist. I'll ask him next time I see him. However, he is not that fluent in English and I have trouble understanding him. I can only understand simple words in Taiwanese, not political discussions in it.

So I wanted to ask you, Momopi, because you are the Mr. Spock of this forum. lol. Billy even said so too, in that other thread about sex robots. lol

I don't know much about Taiwan history, but Rock and Repatriate above said that technically, Taiwan was never a part of China, so I thought there must be a reason. Ask them about it.
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Post by ALIBABA » April 2nd, 2012, 8:53 am

taiwan is a part of China, however, it serves a very important purpose, to destabilise China. i've talked to alot of taiwanese people. everyone from taiwanese intelligence officers, military generals, to successful businessmen. all of them have extremely disturbed thoughts. all seem greedy, and selfish. none of them want peace, or harmony. i couldnt understand why these people wanted to destabilise their own country. then i started to realise that by playing the independence card, these guys have a lot to gain, businesswise, through blackmailing the main land. the way it works it, taiwan makes economic demands toward the mainland. they demand that the mainland buy x amount of goods from taiwanese corporations. if they dont, then they send in the dpp. if the mainland is able to meet these requirements, then they call off the dpp. also, in order to understand the taiwan issue better, you need to better analyse and study the american divide and conquer strategies world wide. it is in the interest of the imperialist that taiwan, and the mainland remain divided. this way, the west can hinder China's ability to become strong. taiwan is no different from chechnya in Russia. south sudan, or kosovo. they are all pupet regimes used by the u.s to destabilise an entire region. most taiwanese are pawns for the west, in their covert war against China. if there is one thing i hate, it is western imperialism, and if an independent taiwan is what the west wants, then i;m against it. if you look around the world, almost every regime that the u.s supports is corrupt, and a war monger. south korea, taiwan, south sudan, israel, kosovo, chechnya, al qaeda, jundallah, tamil tigers, etc. i think it's important for some force in the world to counter balance western imperialism, and the hope that i have, and many others, is that China will do this. after the fall of the soviet union, the u.s essentially got a blank cheque to attack other countries, and sponsor terorism world wide. since the fall of the ussr, the u.s has been attacking country after country. there was no one left to check american aggression. if China goes, then the world will become extremely dangerous, and taiwan will be a very important tool to bring down China. that is why China is willing to go to war if taiwan splits.

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Post by BEIJINGSHOTS » October 15th, 2012, 10:11 am

ph_visitor wrote:If any land was ever on any China map, since 5,000 BC, then they want it back. They also want the gold and museum pieces, everywhere. They want it all back.

All of it.
if you accept that the white man's claim to america, canada, and australia, then why not China's claim on taiwan? the white man went to america, canada, and australia, killed everyone, and declared the land theirs. i'm pretty sure China would give up its claims on taiwan if the white man led by example, by returning australia, usa, and canada to the native people, and return to europe imediately.

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Post by odbo » October 15th, 2012, 11:07 am

BEIJINGSHOTS wrote:
ph_visitor wrote:If any land was ever on any China map, since 5,000 BC, then they want it back. They also want the gold and museum pieces, everywhere. They want it all back.

All of it.
if you accept that the white man's claim to america, canada, and australia, then why not China's claim on taiwan? the white man went to america, canada, and australia, killed everyone, and declared the land theirs. i'm pretty sure China would give up its claims on taiwan if the white man led by example, by returning australia, usa, and canada to the native people, and return to europe imediately.
shut up philosophical filipino. no one cares. your spam wasn't funny then, and it isn't funny on your tenth troll account. there are people out there with real problems. i'm sorry mommy & daddy didn't buy you a toyota supra or m3 when you turned 16 and you had to settle for a used civic while they put you through school. asian-american males, especially the ones from well to do families, need to get a life and stop blaming others for their own dull lives.

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Post by Winston » September 20th, 2013, 10:45 pm

Question:

Why is it that whenever I ask a mainland Chinese girl "Do you think Taiwan belongs to China?" they always react with emotion and say strongly "Of course it does!"

Why do they act like they have an emotional investment in the politics of a small island? I mean, what does it have to do with them personally? Why do they care? Why don't they just say "I guess so, but it depends on who you ask"? lol

How do they explain how Taiwan came to have a separate government?

Momopi, Kai, what do you think?

Also, what if you were to ask a Taiwanese girl the same question? Would she have a strong opinion on that too?
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Post by momopi » September 21st, 2013, 1:27 am

Winston wrote:Question:
Why is it that whenever I ask a mainland Chinese girl "Do you think Taiwan belongs to China?" they always react with emotion and say strongly "Of course it does!"
Why do they act like they have an emotional investment in the politics of a small island? I mean, what does it have to do with them personally? Why do they care? Why don't they just say "I guess so, but it depends on who you ask"? lol
How do they explain how Taiwan came to have a separate government?
Momopi, Kai, what do you think?
Also, what if you were to ask a Taiwanese girl the same question? Would she have a strong opinion on that too?
The CCP's stated position is that Mainland China and Taiwan belong to one China, the sovereignty of one China is indivisible, Taiwan is a residual problem of the Chinese civil war, and is an internal affair of China. Article 8 of the Anti-Secession Law authorizes the Chinese government to use military force to conquer Taiwan if deemed necessary. This is what they teach in Chinese schools and opposition to re-unification with Taiwan is illegal.

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