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China And Russia In South China Sea

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Taco
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China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Taco » July 29th, 2016, 9:48 am

While everyone is consumed with the US presidential election China and Russia are about to get trigger happy after the Hague rejected China's territorial claims a few weeks ago.

China Says To Hold Drills With Russia In South China Sea
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south ... SKCN1080O8

Tribunal Rejects Beijing's Claims In The South China Sea
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world ... .html?_r=0
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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Tsar » July 29th, 2016, 4:10 pm

Taco wrote:While everyone is consumed with the US presidential election China and Russia are about to get trigger happy after the Hague rejected China's territorial claims a few weeks ago.

China Says To Hold Drills With Russia In South China Sea
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south ... SKCN1080O8

Tribunal Rejects Beijing's Claims In The South China Sea
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world ... .html?_r=0
The Hague (which is a nickname for the World Court and the ICC, the Hague is the city where the two international organizations are located) is a US/Zionist puppet just like the UN, Interpol, the World Court, the IMF, the ICC, the WTO, etc

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MarcosZeitola
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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by MarcosZeitola » July 29th, 2016, 5:19 pm

China's historical claims are bullshit, they signed the law of the sea themselves. China's government is full of shit and should respect the rights of Filipino fishermen, rather then bully them by building artificial islands and refuse to let them fish in their own sea... America is an imperialist and aggresive state, and China has every right to call out America on its bullshit, but not when they act the same way in the West Philippine Sea. They claim to need the resources, but China's lucrative trade deals in Africa give them access to all the natural resources the Chinese people and industry need. They're just flexing their muscles here to make a point and see how far they can take things.

China should respect the territorial integrity of neighboring countries, and the rights of countries such as Japan, Indonesia, the Philippines and Malaysia to use their own sea within their range of 200 nautical miles. China has no legal or historical rights over the area. They tried the same bullshit with Japan, claiming islands that weren't historically theirs. As someone living in the Philippines, as much as I dislike America, I'm still glad America is there. You need to have some sort of balance in the world, because America or China alone cannot be allowed to dominate the world - all the little nations in their proximity will be trampled.

Regardless of my opinion of the internationl court in The Hague, or the UN as a whole, the ruling was a just and fair ruling. Now it is up to China to respect it, and allow foreign ships free passage, as well as allow fishermen to use waters that are historically theirs. Putting warships in the water to prevent a few poor Filipinos from catching their daily meal, is just cruel and unjustifiable.

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by El_Caudillo » July 29th, 2016, 6:04 pm

Well said Marcos, I couldn't agree more. Regarding China's influence in Africa and other places I really recommend this book:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/ ... journalism

I'm not looking forward to a future with more and more Chinese international ventures, and neither should workers in various developing nations if this book is anything to go by.
Even Billy knows that, just ask Mr S!

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by OutWest » July 29th, 2016, 6:14 pm

El_Caudillo wrote:Well said Marcos, I couldn't agree more. Regarding China's influence in Africa and other places I really recommend this book:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/ ... journalism

I'm not looking forward to a future with more and more Chinese international ventures, and neither should workers in various developing nations if this book is anything to go by.
China is governed by a brutal and repressive regime. The reality is if you become their target, so long as you are not famous, they can make you disappear and butcher you alive for organ harvesting harvesting as , as they have done, and still do, with house Christians and fulan gong practitioners. Japan should build their own nuclear force if they have not already quietly done so. They are going to need it.

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Moretorque » July 30th, 2016, 12:32 am

Of course China is a brutal regime, who showed them how to do what they are doing ? the same people who created the UN and Hague.

All roads go back to the CITI and the ruling families who set this system up world wide.
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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by momopi » July 30th, 2016, 2:37 am

* The arbitral tribunal ("Hague") is not UN or IJC. The tribunal's ruling has nothing to do with International Court of Justice.

* The tribunal's ruling specified that all above water features, including the largest island of Itu Aba (controlled by Taiwan as Taiping Island) in disputed area are "rocks" ineligible for EEZ claims.

* China, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, and Taiwan all claims EEZ based on "rocks" in the disputed area. This is referred to as extended EEZ claim beyond the 200 km from mainland shores. The ruling effectively invalidated everyone's extended claims.

* The ruling favors Philippines's EEZ claim from Palawan but also specified that Chinese fisherman has traditional fishing rights within Philippine EEZ. Vietnamese fisherman were not granted the same privilege.

* Up until recent years Vietnam actually spent more resources than everyone else to occupy and hold islands in the disputed waters with their extends EEZ claim in "undefined dash lines" just like China. The Hague's ruling effectively invalidated Vietnam's extended EEZ claim and turned their decades of effort into spilled soup.

* the ruling will also have future negative impact on Japan's 400,000 sq km EEZ claim based from Okinotorishima.

* If anyone buys into the media propaganda that this was strictly anti China victory, you're probably not from one of the other parties in the dispute. Taiwan wasn't even part of the suit and got thrown under the bus. Also, acceptance of the arbitration is voluntary as there is no mechanism of enforcement.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003650919
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/0 ... 5kgR1YrK70

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Yohan
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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Yohan » July 30th, 2016, 5:21 pm

MarcosZeitola wrote:China's historical claims are bullshit...
This is a good summary in a short sentence.
No international tribunal can ever accept something vague as such strange 'historical claims'.

China is claiming sea territory as far as Indonesia, south of Vietnam. There is hardly any nation around which has no disputes with China, either land or sea territory. China claims for example a large land from India, calling it South Tibet = Anuchal Pradesh and only Indian people are living there. China is claiming even a little land from tiny Bhutan. China is claiming sea territory from South Korea, of course also from Japan, from Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei....

If China is claiming an economic zone of 200 NM for itself in the South China Sea, I see no reason why Philippines cannot claim the same 200 NM west of Palawan, just one example.

About Japan, the issue about sea territory is complicated as Taiwan's position is not really clear. Is Taiwan China - or not? These disputed islands, called Senkaku in Japanese, are of same distance to Taiwan as they are to Yonaguni Island, which is a real Japanese island (about 2000 people are living there) and which is not disputed by Taiwan and China, however these Senkaku islands are clearly further away from mainland China than from Yonaguni. On these islands only Japanese were living up to WWII, only Japanese land-titles ever were issued for the Senkaku islands.

However to force China to respect rules, you need a strong military force, especially Navy. Japan can do that, its Coast Guard ships and Navy are fairly strong - however Philippines cannot anything. Vietnam is also unable to stop Chinese ships.

China is simply said a bully, their ships are showing up everywhere for poaching.
To claim almost the entire South China Sea is a ridiculous claim.

Indonesia intercepted their boats recently by using its navy, Argentine - yes, far away Argentine, just sank their boat.

http://qz.com/695526/indonesia-had-anot ... gger-boat/
http://qz.com/640498/argentina-sank-a-c ... al-waters/
Last edited by Yohan on July 30th, 2016, 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Yohan
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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Yohan » July 30th, 2016, 6:08 pm

momopi wrote: * the ruling will also have future negative impact on Japan's 400,000 sq km EEZ claim based from Okinotorishima.
This ruling has nothing to do with Okinotorishima. It's about the South China Sea.

Quite a different issue anyway as Okinotorishima itself is not claimed by China, it is Japanese. Disputed is merely the EEZ around it.

However with all these rocks in the South China Sea, it is even disputed if they belong to China or not.

If China wants an opinion about Okinotorishima, it has to do the same as the Philippines, asking the Permanent Court of Arbitration.

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Yohan » July 30th, 2016, 6:17 pm

momopi wrote: * If anyone buys into the media propaganda that this was strictly anti China victory, you're probably not from one of the other parties in the dispute. Taiwan wasn't even part of the suit and got thrown under the bus. Also, acceptance of the arbitration is voluntary as there is no mechanism of enforcement.
Taiwan is not an independent country.

If this ruling was not anti-China, then I wonder why China is refusing to accept it.
While the arbitration is voluntary, it is a deep-in study and expertise about the political situation in this area.

It is useful in case of confrontation to justify various actions, politically and also militarily, for example in case of Indonesia to intercept Chinese poachers, to arrest the crew and confiscate their boats.

There are major complaints by Vietnam too, and it might be possible that Vietnam will do the same as Philippines, to ask for an international expertise about where the borders between China and Vietnam should be - and Vietnam has the best chance to win its case.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/0 ... 5zh3E8pqTY

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by momopi » August 4th, 2016, 5:13 am

Yohan wrote:
momopi wrote: * the ruling will also have future negative impact on Japan's 400,000 sq km EEZ claim based from Okinotorishima.
This ruling has nothing to do with Okinotorishima. It's about the South China Sea.
Quite a different issue anyway as Okinotorishima itself is not claimed by China, it is Japanese. Disputed is merely the EEZ around it.
However with all these rocks in the South China Sea, it is even disputed if they belong to China or not.
If China wants an opinion about Okinotorishima, it has to do the same as the Philippines, asking the Permanent Court of Arbitration.
The ruling is about maritime claims based on rocks, and will have far reaching consequences for Japan, France, and US EEZ claims in the Pacific down the line.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/china-ha ... ea-ruling/
Last edited by momopi on August 4th, 2016, 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by momopi » August 4th, 2016, 5:49 am

Yohan wrote:
momopi wrote: * If anyone buys into the media propaganda that this was strictly anti China victory, you're probably not from one of the other parties in the dispute. Taiwan wasn't even part of the suit and got thrown under the bus. Also, acceptance of the arbitration is voluntary as there is no mechanism of enforcement.
Taiwan is not an independent country.
De facto independent country. Passport accepted by most countries (only 4 countries and HK/Macau do not accept ROC passport).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _of_Taiwan
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_re ... e_citizens

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Yohan
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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Yohan » August 4th, 2016, 2:23 pm

momopi wrote:
Yohan wrote:
momopi wrote: * the ruling will also have future negative impact on Japan's 400,000 sq km EEZ claim based from Okinotorishima.
This ruling has nothing to do with Okinotorishima. It's about the South China Sea.
Quite a different issue anyway as Okinotorishima itself is not claimed by China, it is Japanese. Disputed is merely the EEZ around it.
However with all these rocks in the South China Sea, it is even disputed if they belong to China or not.
If China wants an opinion about Okinotorishima, it has to do the same as the Philippines, asking the Permanent Court of Arbitration.
The ruling is about maritime claims based on rocks, and will have far reaching consequences for Japan, France, and US EEZ claims in the Pacific down the line.
http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/china-ha ... ea-ruling/
If China has so much to gain from this South China Sea ruling then I wonder why it rejects it.

The ruling is about disputes between China and Philippines, Japan is nowhere mentioned and has also no claims in this South China Sea area.

If China wants a ruling about Japan and its claims regarding Senkaku and Okinotorishima, it can ask anytime the Permanent Court of Arbitration to go ahead with it.

China never questioned the claim that Okinotorishima belongs to Japan, it merely questions the EEZ around it, I personally think, this is an atoll or a rock and not an island, entitled to 12 NM only. With this argument, I think China will win.

The Senkaku are different, Japanese were living there and had to leave because of WWII. The Senkaku are only 80 NM away from Yonaguni, a non disputed Japanese island with ferry, airport and 2000 people living there. However the Senkaku are about 180 NM away from China mainland and never Chinese people were living on Senkaku. There is no reason why these large rocks should belong to mainland China.

Taiwan is also claiming these rocks, but Senkaku is located north of Yonaguni. Distance might be the same, but Yonaguni Island is between Senkaku and Taiwan.

I also doubt if the PCA would accept any claim coming from Taiwan.

Anyway, as long as China is not moving out of Philippine waters, 200 NM east of Palawan (and this is a very large Philippine island and not a rock) there is no reason for Japan to let China into Senkaku area.

First of all China has to accept and respect the PCA ruling, the Chinese government is acting like a thief complaining about the police.
Last edited by Yohan on August 4th, 2016, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by Yohan » August 4th, 2016, 2:44 pm

momopi wrote: De facto independent country
No, Taiwan is NOT an independent country. It's political status is unclear. Its government was kicked out of UN and being replaced with the government of mainland China in 1971. Taiwan tries to return to the UN since about 15 years but was always rejected. Presently it is a member of 'Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO)' together with Tibet and some others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreprese ... ganization

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Re: China And Russia In South China Sea

Post by momopi » August 5th, 2016, 6:01 am

Yohan wrote: Taiwan is also claiming these rocks, but Senkaku is located north of Yonaguni. Distance might be the same, but Yonaguni Island is between Senkaku and Taiwan.
I also doubt if the PCA would accept any claim coming from Taiwan.
.
TW did not submit claim to The Hague, TW and JP signed bilateral agreement to give Taiwanese fisherman access to 74,300 sq km around Daoyutai (senksku) and more around Yaeyama islands:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/a ... 2003639695

Okinawan fisherman impacted by the agreement was never consulted or compensated by Tokyo.
Last edited by momopi on August 5th, 2016, 6:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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