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Debunking "The Secret" and "Law of Attraction"

Discuss deep philosophical topics and questions.

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ladislav
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Post by ladislav » January 28th, 2009, 2:13 am

Enishi wrote:Great post Ladislav.

I do somewhat disagree though about thoughts being the least important aspect.

According to Daskalos, the Christian mystic from the book Magus of Strovolos, along with some others I've read, the thoughts and intentions you put into your actions are actually one of the most important karma creators.

Thing is, for the average person, even if they're attempting to create positive thoughts, they usually have lots of subconscious baggage they haven't yet purified. Also, the good karma you create from right thinking may not come back to you until the afterlife, or in your next incarnation.


W: I think what Ladislav was saying was that thoughts don't have much of an effect in the short term,


if it is an average person we are talking about

but actions have a more relevant and practical effect in this world.

usually so

Of course thoughts have their places, since thoughts often lead to actions. But again, they are limited in power, at least for us in our present state.


I have visualized jobs and girlfriends before with a very very deep and powerful thought behind those and they did manifest later, but again I had to suit actions to those thoughts- had to court the girl later and ask for her phone number, had to apply for the job, etc. Thoughts + words + actions have the biggest effect over all.


Thoughts themselves, nonetheless are potentially unlimited in power. In some people, thoughts create reality very quickly. That is how ( silent) prayer works. People think, imprint images on time/space/energy/matter and these manifest pretty quickly in their lives. Such people have very light karma and often they were born in very good circumstances to begin with and have had a confident upbringing, and their confidence leads to greater faith and more successful thoughts/prayers.

Other people, for example, from usually very radical Protestant sects, such as Pentecostals, for one, have often been through very big hardships and used prayer over and over again , and their very bad circumstances propelled them to develop the power of thought(+words) even more, and now they can actually pray and control things with the prayer ( thoughts+ words) and even with thoughts alone.

But with an average Joe Human who is unenlightened, burdened by heavy karma, and who does not regularly develop such powers through repetitive spiritual exercises done in an effective way, thoughts have the least power, words have a little more, and actions a bit more.

Another important thing to keep in mind is this:

Most people who are not atheists would practice prayer through a religion, and the majority of religions do not emphasize the use of prayer to change actual circumstances for the better now, but rather , to be spiritual and prepare oneself for next life. The founders of those religions probably realized just how hard it was to change actual things around one with thoughts alone. Other religions , for example, higher sects of Mahayana, or Protestantism emphasized more involvement by prayer/thought into present daily lives of people and the events that occur in them in order to change them. This is one of the reasons why Protestant countries are more successful than Catholic ones and Mahayana countries are richer than Hinayana ones ( Japan vs. Sri Lanka, for one) . But again, we yet have to come up with a more purified teaching that scientifically instructs us to develop thoughts/prayers to such an extent that we can easily command things with them alone.

New Age and many other teachings that we have now give us only partial instructions illustrating only vague aspects of some greater truth heavily colored by subjective experiences and interpretations of leaders of such movements. What is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the chicken. What works for one person, may not ( yet) work for another, you see. Only you will know what works for you and how you can continue to develop your ability. They can give you some inklings of what goes one, but it is up to you to experiment with those until you find which way is the most effective for you.
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Post by Winston » January 28th, 2009, 4:32 am

Here is my theory on why certain prayers are answered more than others.
My own theory on how and why prayer works

http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Skeptical_Arguments/Page21.htm

Now, you may be wondering how prayers and miracles could be real supernatural phenomena, yet the religions behind them not be true. How could you harmonize that? Well there are other explanations that theoretically harmonize them.

I have a theory which I call metaphysical societies. A Canadian colleague I had in Taiwan helped me formulate it. We were talking about religion and answered prayer, and how and why they worked. I mentioned that I had some amazing stories of answered prayer that I knew weren't just coincidence, when I was a Christian. Yet, the beliefs and doctrines of Christian fundamentalism have obviously been proven false for me in the literal sense, so I was trying to make sense of how prayers could still be answered. Aaron, the colleague I had these discussions with, then started explaining to me about "metaphysical societies." It made a lot of sense to me and provided a unified theory.

Here is how it goes. As we all know, in New Age quantum theory, "thought creates reality" in a universal sense, even though in our dimension, this principle is reflected much more weakly and slowly than in other dimensions. Therefore, when a group of people gather for a single purpose, they create a certain energy field between them that makes their power stronger. And that's especially true with organized religion. And in Christianity's case, with a billion followers, that energy field would be very powerful indeed. Therefore, when one is indoctrinated into Christianity, he/she also becomes part of this massive group energy field, and is governed by its principles, values and beliefs. As a result, when that person lives according to the values of this energy field, that energy field works to help that person in many ways, including answering its prayers. That is why, when I was a Christian, I found that when I prayed for things that I was SUPPOSED to pray for, that a good Christian should want and desire, it had a very high probability of manifesting and coming true, smoothly and easily. However, when I prayed and asked for things of a purely selfish nature, it had a very low probability of manifesting. I noticed this pattern. And when prayers came true, whether for me or others, it would obviously not be ordinary day to day coincidences or selective perception and memory, because the answered prayers would come about my seemingly impossible odds of things that never happen, all SYNCHRONIZED to manifest the result. Sometimes, in manifesting the prayer, people would be involved who did odd things and later claimed that they had no idea why they even did it, but what they did brought about the answered prayer. These kind of things tell anyone that it was a real answered prayer, and not coincidence or selective memory.

This same "metaphysical society" effect happens in other religions as well, since people in other religions get prayers answered as well, as long as they are in accordance with the values of their metaphysical society. I have even heard that with Wiccans, when they make a pledge to a goddess and then break it without asking permission of that goddess, they often reap bad or disastrous consequences, until they go back and ask permission of the goddess to leave. Perhaps, these goddess that Wiccans pledge to are also metaphysically created, either in some other dimension or the mind of the believers, so that they do exist in a metaphysical sense, having power and influence in our lives, physical world and dimension.
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Post by ladislav » January 28th, 2009, 6:45 pm

It is an interesting observation. And I shall also thing that a Protestant field is stronger than a Catholic field in terms of prayers being answered which again is reflected in the state of economy and politics of the Protestant and Catholic countries respectively.

I have also noticed that large Gohonzons at Buddhist temples have greater power than smaller ones at people's homes.

As far as religions being true or untrue- most religions we have are very old and from pre-scientific times. Hence, the writings in them are very allegorical- tales and legends and fables, written by people who were not very educated by modern standards. One of the main reasons why there is a rift between scientists and religious people in the Western world is simply because both take many things written in those religious books literally whereas they should be taken symbolically and not as historically accurate reports of things that happened.

You need to read between the lines to see ideas and messages about courage, faith, forgiveness, heroism, sacrifice and how nature and prayer work. Things about friendship and helping your fellow man and how to deal with treachery and be a good person, etc. and about what values need to be upheld, etc. All this needs to be done while keeping in mind the time in which these were written. Under no circumstance should you take them as chronological and exact accounts of what went on. Also, what was good and bad in those times is very appropriate for those times within the context of those times. It may not be appropriate now so, it is up to you to pick and choose which of those lessons can apply to the 21st century.

The same goes for Eastern religions that have dragons and gods and demons and deities of the stars and the moons and the devil of the 6th heaven- these are basically symbolic representations of functions of life and nature. And one should not believe in those things verbatim. Once that is accepted as a given, there is no longer a big contradiction between religion and science.
Last edited by ladislav on January 29th, 2009, 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Winston » January 29th, 2009, 4:18 pm

ladislav wrote:It is an interesting observation. And I shall also thing that a Protestant field is stronger than a Catholic field in terms of prayers being answered which again is reflected in the state of economy and politics iof the Protestant and Catholic countries respectively.

I have also noticed that large Gohonzons at Buddhist temples have greater power than smaller ones at people's homes.

As far as religions being true or untrue- most religions we have are very old and from pre-scientific times. Hence, the writings are very allegorical. One of the main reasons why there is a rift between scientists and religious people in the Western world is simply because both take many things literally whereas they should be taken symbolically. The same in Eastern religions that have dragons and gods and demons- these are basically symbolic representations of functions of life and nature. And one should not believe in those things verbatim. Once that is accepted as a given, there is no longer a big contradiction between religion and science.


W: That's a great paragraph and observation. It says it all. I think I'll add it to the end of my debunking skeptics article or the debunking Christians one, or both.
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Post by Winston » January 31st, 2009, 3:59 pm

Here's what a mystic on my paranormal list had to say about this:

."..........'Here is how it goes. As we all know, in New Age quantum theory, "thought creates reality" in a universal sense, even though in our dimension, this principle is reflected much more weakly and slowly than in other dimensions. Therefore, when a group of people gather for a single purpose, they create a certain energy field between them that makes their power stronger. And that's especially true with organized religion. And in Christianity's case, with a billion followers, that energy field would be very powerful indeed. Therefore, when one is indoctrinated into Christianity, he/she also becomes part of this massive group energy field, and is governed by its principles, values and beliefs. ....................................."

There is something to be said for widening an energy field, when two or more people get together who are of like mind; however that is the case in any gathering of like minds.
You see it in teamwork, in committees, clans, cults and gangs, even in the audiences. In short, by pooling own energies together with others, things get done in the every day physical reality.

However, this is hardly what is meant by "Thoughts create reality," because here the appeal is on the own power with in, which works quite naturally, if the individual is aware of it or not, if consciously invoked or not. With other words, we use it without even knowing it.

The reason Mankind is unaware of this power within, is because for thousands of years, religions have taught the opposite, that the power exists, but outside of Man, not within. More so, religions have installed the fixed idea that Man was created powerless and weak, and has to appeal to this all powerful 'God' if Man needs help in matters over which he has no influence.
AND IT WORKS, but not for the reasons given.

The reason that some prayers work, is because of the thought of a positive outcome. That is the person has a definite image of what it is he needs or desires, and the deep faith that it will come about. This image acts like a blueprint, or a vacuum in the personal energy field, drawing to itself whatever that image is about, if it concerns others or himself.


Winston, you have the wrong idea about “Thought creating Reality�. It is not some special external ‘Power’ which some invoke, even though it may seem to some as such, (as in prayers are answered.)

It is the power within, actually the ‘Source’ of each and every living thing, which manifests the images generated and carried in the subliminal, or intuitive mind.

One could go as far as saying that the intuitive Mind is the seat of accumulated Karma, and not being of physical structure, such as an ‘object’ or organ, must be seen an energy field, or the driving force not limited to any specific form, but highly concentrated within the individually manifested form. This then applies to all specie, not just Man.



Life forms other than the human specie, whereby the entire physical structure is more or less a sensory system, react naturally and intuitively (without intent), to their respective environment, in order to sustain the physical form.

Their entire organism draws from this source, and they adjust naturally to the environment in which they find themselves, for as long as their physical structure permits. There is no intent on their part, because whatever the sensory system projects – becomes instant subject to reaction. .



Whereas this ‘Karma’, the accumulated experience rate of each specie, remains unchanged for life forms like vegetation and animals, as long as the environment itself does not drastically change, which of course influences the experience rate, - it becomes highly individualized and continually modified for the human form.



The reason being, that in the mammal we have come to call Man, - the big Divide from animalism , - the brain developed to the point beyond ordinary physical sensory perception, such as alternatives, or potential probabilities of ‘not yet manifested events, thus developing thoughts, which the brain now must process like any physical sensation perceived. And indeed, these thoughts are presented in “Images� no different from images perceived by the physical senses, except that these images are not considered as “Real�, or “Actual�, since they are not physically manifested.





The brain does not differentiate between actual or probable, not in the way we think. The brain processes either image, and only relies on the conclusion arrived at after processing, such as this is “real�, or this is ‘Not real�, thus creating a reservoir of “facts� in the mind for further conclusions, when new probabilities present themselves.



Something established, or labeled as “actual�, physical in nature or not, it draws to itself images and probabilities to manifest what initially was a mere probability, thus inadvertently, - and thus thoughts become reality. (This then applies also to "Visions" based on belief alone.)

To the Believer such vision IS REALITY. a s real as if seen with the physical the eye.)



In simplified terms, we envision these probabilities as being already manifested, and merely physically provide what is lacking, in order to see the physical reflection of a nonphysical thought.

The nonphysical images, or thoughts, act much like a blueprint on paper, as to what the physical image is designed to look like, and like we select a blueprint, and give it to a contractor to proceed in the construction, we get what we wanted,

unless we make changes during the process of construction, then these changes will influence the outcome of the project accordingly.



If we design a blueprint vaguely, a mere sketch, the outcome will by sketchy as well, just as we may leave it up to another[1] to construct a building for us, then we should not be surprised if the outcome is not what we envisioned, and we may, or may not be satisfied what we find the building to be, yet move in and make the best of it.

Some are happy with their life, others are not so happy, wishing for some ‘miracle’ to change their life; but don’t know why their dreams don’t come true, and settle for their physical limitations, not realizing that the power is within themselves, not in the hands of someone else, or something external of themselves.



Humanity has for thousands of year, if not from the very beginning, adopted the notion that Man has no power of his own, and that his destiny, or fate, is determined from the beginning. Even those who are aware of ‘Karma’ fall into that trap, seeing Karma as being designed to, or bestowed upon them by an authority greater than they themselves[2], not realizing that they themselves have build up their own Karma in the course over untold existences, being plaid out in the current personality.



This may be a difficult concept to deal with, for those who are taught to believe that

the current physical life is the only life ever.



It is the only physical life for any given individual personality, - but not for the nonphysical “Self�, which accumulates conscious awareness of Self by taking form in many individual personalities, under many varying circumstances and situations, which ever lend themselves best to express the encumbered experiences - (Karma)

The “nonphysical Self�, generally seen as “Spirit� (a nonphysical Entity,) does not take physical form in order to have a “spiritual experience,�nor is it limited to a single personality. but manifests in physical form to have a physical experience, more so, to actualize its vast unlimited potentials, in whatever setting these can be actualized.



The experience in Human form, with the ability of abstract thought, thus acting by intent, may well be the reason many lean toward the notion that the “Spirit-Self� intended to manifest as a “certain personality� versa any other; - and that may well be the case, - considering that our own preferences are based either on experience or challenge of the unknown. – but we must see this as a Speculation, a probability only; because little is known of the period prior to physical manifestation.

.
Respectfully, Edith

[1] Such as in prayer. Leaving it up to a “higher power� as to the outcome of what we desire, and/or pray for.

[2] Also widly known as “The Will of God�.
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Post by FuzzX » March 13th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Star Wars was created by thought :)

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Re: Debunking "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret"

Post by Winston » December 15th, 2016, 11:08 am

Can you believe anyone would write this shit? It's an insult to the intelligence. The author claims to have manifested 140 million USD using the law of attraction. LOL


Law of Attraction, or Whim of Attraction?: A brief description of how and why Law of Attraction works for everyone -- YES, even you!

Don't keep pushing wealth and success away; you can have everything you desire, right now, today. There is no need for a vision board, no need for meditation, no need for more study or watching more Youtube videos. Following the information provided in this booklet, you WILL receive ALL of your desires, today. You won't have to wait until tomorrow, or next week, or next month or next year. You will be shown how to achieve your desires RIGHT NOW!

The author has successfully manifested more than $140,000,000 USD; yes, that does mean more than 140 Million in U. S. Dollars. Aren't you ready to take your personal life to those levels?

Are you ready to be the next person to win the Powerball or Mega Millions Lottery Jackpot? You know someone has to win it sometime, right? Why shouldn't you use every advantage available that will help YOU win? Law of Attraction IS that special advantage.

In the past, many people have been motivated to use Law of Attraction after watching the DVD/movie "The Secret", promoted by Rhonda Byrne. Nearly 10 years after Oprah Winfrey introduced her television audience to the Universal Law we know as "Law of Attraction", a search on YouTube, Google, Wikipedia and other search engines reveals just how popular Law of Attraction remains today, . However, to many of us, the Law of Attraction appears to work for "other people" a lot more often than it has been working for us, as individuals.

Since "The Secret" became so popular, much more attention has been paid to the works of Abraham - Esther Hicks, Neville Goddard, Teal Swan, Bob Proctor, Anthony Robbins, Jesus Christ, Buddha, Napoleon Hill, Wallace Wattles, Jim Carrey, Melody Fletcher, and Albert Einstein. Though the list seems filled with random names, along with many others, each person named has contributed to our understanding today of what Law of Attraction is, and how it affects every one of us.

While many of us play the Mega Millions and Powerball lottery faithfully, and we all dream of hitting 'the big jackpot'; some of us have heard of actual Lottery jackpot winners (i.e.; Ellwood "Bunky" Bartlett, Cynthia Stafford, and Paul White) who attribute their winning to the power of positive thinking, Universe, and Law of Attraction.

You may know people among your friends and family who believe LOA has cured them of a catastrophic illness. I include those who used prayer boards and individual prayers to God. What more visible evidence of Universal Law at work than to have many people making the same request for their family and friends, and then seeing the desired recovery from illness? After such a recovery, with such profound evidence, who would dispute the power of positive thinking?

Perhaps you have known others who claim to have met their romantic soulmate using what they know about LOA.

Whatever your desires may be, almost everyone you know wants 'something' more in life than they have right now. Maybe it is more wealth by winning the Powerball or MegaMillions lottery jackpot; or it might be a healthier body; or it may be a loving relationship. The primary reason they want that 'something'? They are convinced if they just had whatever "it" is, then their life would be 'better', 'happier', 'richer', 'healthier', 'more loving', 'more satisfactory', even 'more … (fill in the blank)!'.

This booklet provides YOU with the solution to having a richer, healthier, more loving life. Following the instructions inside this booklet, your life WILL be better. How can I make such a bold promise? It is a universal LAW… Understanding the basics of Law of Attraction as explained here, if you follow the simple steps outlined inside, the Universe WILL provide the better life you desire, beginning TODAY! Stop waiting for something else to come along. The Secret is inside, ready for YOU to receive!
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Re: Debunking "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret"

Post by Winston » December 15th, 2016, 11:31 am

This was the original Law of Attraction book written in the early 1900's.



Thought Vibration: or the Law of Attraction in the Thought World
by William Walker Atkinson (Author)

William Walker Atkinson was an influential member of the New Thought movement. He was one of the first people to write about the Law of Attraction. Long before Rhonda Byrne discovered 'The Secret' that one's positive thoughts are powerful magnets that attract wealth, health, and happiness, Atkinson already knew it.


Image
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Re: Debunking "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret"

Post by starchild5 » December 16th, 2016, 2:48 am

He is a freemason...I was fooled by power of positive thinking book by Norment Vincent Peele...The pastor of Donald Trump....Little did i know that he was a 33 degree freemason... :D

Thinking Positive while surrounded by sh*t is a satanic thinking.

Law of Attraction is just another New Age CIA crap thrown at humanity.

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Re: Debunking "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret"

Post by Winston » June 6th, 2017, 8:51 am

Excellent metaphysical explanation by hans wilhelm about why "the secret" and its big promises doesnt work. Brilliant spiritual explanation.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_togEURUzY[/youtube]
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Re: Debunking "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret"

Post by jamesbond » June 6th, 2017, 3:51 pm

Winston wrote:This was the original Law of Attraction book written in the early 1900's.

Image
I have read similar books to this one, I think I will check this book out too.
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Re: Debunking "The Law of Attraction" and "The Secret"

Post by gsjackson » June 6th, 2017, 11:53 pm

Winston wrote:Excellent metaphysical explanation by hans wilhelm about why "the secret" and its big promises doesnt work. Brilliant spiritual explanation.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_togEURUzY[/youtube]
This isn't really a refutation of the law of attraction, but an elaboration on how to use it effectively. And a very helpful one, in my opinion.

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Re: Debunking "The Secret" and "The Law of Attraction"

Post by Eric » June 7th, 2017, 4:30 am

Check out the Kybalion - the study of hermetics. The only REAL valid source of spiritual laws that holds any weight in my mind, apart from the Kabbalah.
Misery and happiness are only states of mind.

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