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Debunking "The Secret" and "Law of Attraction"

Discuss deep philosophical topics and questions.

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Winston
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Debunking "The Secret" and "Law of Attraction"

Post by Winston » September 19th, 2008, 9:25 am

My new essay "Debunking the Law of Attraction" and "Thoughts Create Reality Principle" promoted by the book and film "The Secret":

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/LawofAttraction.htm

My video critique of the Law of Attraction.

Last edited by Winston on May 7th, 2014, 4:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by momopi » September 19th, 2008, 9:41 pm

Wishing really hard that something would happen, doesn't always make it happen. That's just the fact of life.

However, there is a such thing called self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Post by Winston » September 20th, 2008, 11:56 am

Here is how my New Age advisor answered those 15 questions. As I predicted, those who believe in this mantra dodge such questions. She seems to be saying that our "higher self" has thoughts we aren't consciously aware of, so if things happen that we don't expect or don't want, then our higher selves created them. What an obvious copout.

------------------------------------

In a message dated 9/19/2008 2:20:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eclectic007@gmail.com writes:

Appendix: List of questions for those who believe that "thoughts create reality"



Here is my list of questions for those who believe that "thoughts create reality", which they seem to avoid for some reason. When I ask them, they tend to either avoid the question or go off into some irrelevant rant and then re-confirming that "thought creates reality" principle without even addressing any of my points directly. How strange. I would have expected better from so called "truth seekers". Nevertheless, here is the list.


OK the fact that you believe our explanations are just "irrelevant rants" answers your own question here. One NEEDS a base line.. their own " experience" if you will... to have something to relate to. You don't .. yet, so there is no real understanding. You only perceive irrelevant rants. That says it all. You have yet to recognize the intensely esoteric nature of what you are asking about. You cannot "dumb down" Truth.. it is what it is. One is either able to recognize it or they don't. It IS right in front of you... and you ask.. Where is it? But what can be done? The soul either recognizes it's Source, or it doesn't. You keep trying to make it an intellectual thing. It isn't. IT goes much deeper than that.


1. If thoughts create reality, then how come we can't fly or walk through walls or move mountains with our thoughts? How come even if I believed 100 percent that I could pass through a solid wall, I'd still bump my head if I tried?

Ahhh because you DON'T believe you can. Me thinks you have no comprehension of the power of the mind to hold on to embedded beliefs. AS example... IF someone were to actually WALK through a Wall right in front of you.. if your mind was diametrically opposed to that possibility.. your mind would NOT report the event to you. Consider: the mind reports that things exist outside of our physical form.. and we typically accept that, without question,.. even as ultimately there is not even a Physical form . Yes.. we EXPERIENCE it but that EXPERIENCE exists in the MIND alone. IT is a virtual reality machine. So.. WHY do you accept the experiences your mind reports to you without question, as the ultimate reality? Because the mind has programed us to... until we are able to transcend the mind and perceive what really is. then we know better.



2. If thoughts create reality, then how come it's possible to trip or slip on banana peels? Wouldn't our assumption that it was safe to walk there create a trouble-free walk? >>

Think larger here... The mind also created the banana peal.
IN a nightmare WHY do you run from a monster when you KNOW that all the players in that dream are just creations of your own mind and are not actually "real"? Because you are only PARTIALLY aware of the big picture. That is how we are designed! The moment you understand WHAT the monster really is.. you stop running... hopefully hehehe.



3. If thoughts create reality, then why did the Titanic sink when everyone "thought" it was unsinkable?

Who says it did sink? Who says the Titanic even actually existed? Again.. You are missing that the entire PLAY of Life is ultimately as REAL as any dream. If you dreamed you were sinking on the Titanic but then you woke up in your bed in downtown L.A., in a cold sweat! <g> .. would you continue to believe you were on the titanic? Or would you just get up, shower , and go to .. well.. wherever it is you go to. :P There is a shift in understanding that you have not made here yet so continually default to the dream. I know you are going to say.. again.. but they REALLY WERE on the TITANIC. And again I will say ... Were they? That is what this conve rsation is actually all about. What is REALLy happening? ..Not in this dream of life, whichcertainly DOES have it's own finite reality but ULTIMATELY .. what is happenig? The answer is ... NOTHING is HAPPENING at all. You are .. we all are. .ultimately PERFECT BEing, as in the verb TO BE. Non Action. Things may APPEAR to happen in a dream, we may APPEAR to GO here and there.. but truly isn't the dreamer just lying in bed DOING nothing?

The dreamer dreams of walls and bodies but upon awakening where are they all? Where do they go? They are nothing but thoughts generated by the mind. They manifest out of Pure Conscoueness and desolve BACK into Pure Consciousness. NOTHING here ultimately exists. YES YES YES.. we DO EXPERIENCE THEM but do not mistake EXPERIENCE for REALITY. We experience dreams don't we? And until we wake up we typically BUY INTO them! The MIND which knows this, to say ... has TRUE and direct Knowledge of it .. can control the dream of life, just as someone having a LUCID dream can control everything in that dream.
Just saying I BELIEVE this or that does not change our actual deeply imbedded beliefs Your thinking here is WAY too simplistic. Do you really think the mind is that easily tricked? Oy Vey!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
4. If thoughts create reality, then why are there surprises in life? Why do both optimists and pessimists experience events that turn out better or worse than they expected? Shouldn't they have manifested whatever they expected?

Because YOU created the surprises in the first place. Your Higher SELF is never surprised, since it is all knowing. What is happening is exactly what YOU expected. You keep confusing this dream of life with the ultimate reality. It isn't. You KNEW ahead of time exactly what experiences you would need to have this time around.. and now you are experiencing those situations... ALL WITHIN the arena of the MIND.

Just an aside: You know.. if you had any understanding of Karma you would NOT be doing a lot of the things you now do. What you do here.. how you respond to your current karma, will have its own repercusions down the road. Acting from a place of love and compassion obviously creates good karma somewhere DOWN THE ROAD. While acting out of FEAR and Anger create negative Karma. Karma IS a very difficult subject, especially for the Western mind to wrap around so YOU SHOULD have an advantage here.

To a Realized Being who understands this is all a Play, they do not get sucked in their karma. They see all karma as simply ... Karma..ACTION and they do not judge it as either good OR bad. IT just IS and they are witness to it. They do not let it effect them just as we would not be upset by a dream the moment we REALIZE it IS a dream. You on the other hand continue to accept this Dream of Life as real.. and so you THINK all these things are actually happening to you.. when ultimately NOTHING is happening to YOU at all. You are the dreamer... the Witness .. and nothing more.

The karma you have already created in the "past" needs to be played out.. experienced... the ONLY choice you have there is in how you react/respond to it. WE can however create NEW karma depending on say.. how we treat others... with respect? or do you just fire back what others throw at you??? You have GOT to make the connect between how you are treated and how you treat others. Hard to do if one has been hijacked by the EGO! The SECRET is to Recognize that everyone here.. is YOU! Not an intellectual exercise to be sure and VERY difficult to attain but not impossible. Otherwise thre would be no Realized People.. and there are.

TIME .. slow AND fast

Note: Because in this physical realm, which acts like slow molasses on a very cold day... there is typically such a long delay between what we think and what happens, we most often do not make the connection between the two. In other realms of Consciousness there is often almost no delay between the THOUGHT and what is created. Here time creates a space, and that can be a very good thing.

Creating through thought....
When I was around 10 I remember standing at our local harbor looking at all these beautiful boats.. and I do remember thinking Ohhhh I AM going to have one some day. There was real conviction behind it. I envisioned very clearly a small cabin cruiser, not too big, floating on a mooring at the end of the road. Almost 50 years later I stood at this very spot.. looking out at my cute little cabin cruiser... floating out on its mooring. In that moment there was recognition! I had asked for that very thing and gotten it. One can say I had to wait a long time.. but that just means they don't yet understand time. Everything actually "HAPPENS" in the same INSTANT. But mind allows thing to play out in ways which are logical to us. * Read The POWER OF NOW.. There is ultimately no past and no future.. there is ONLY NOW.
I created that boat by my very thought and it manifest in such a way that was ACCEPTABLE to my belief system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Manifesting via thought...

* We also CAN bring 'negative' circumstances to us... ( almost always subconsciously) if we feel, ( usually VERY deep down and very hidden from our current awareness) that we are unworthy or unlovable. The ego may, with much bravado claim otherwise, nether the less.. we DO carry a LOT of hidden baggage along with us.. from lifetime after lifetime. YOU would be amazed!
So instead of just denouncing this idea .. STOP ...and allow yourself to consider the possibility. Such denouncements as you do make, from time to time, are nothing but the ego's way of preventing change to take place.
Bottom line here Win is that you have no idea just how complex you , and humanity in general, really are. Your view of things is incredibly simplistic and shallow.. You really need to STOP and look deeper otherwise you'll just continue to surf the surface and not gain any real understanding as to your true greatness and unlimited potential.

Peace, Faith.. to be cont.
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Post by Winston » September 20th, 2008, 11:59 am

Here is the rest of her response.

-----------------------------------------------

Win's 15 quetions continued...

5. If thoughts create reality, then why do most things not go according to plan? By planning, wouldn't your thoughts generated during the plan create the reality in which things went exactly according to plan?

Remember that old saying? HOw to make God laugh? Tell Him your plans? Well of course "Him" is YOU but You don't KNOW that yet so.... you're not laughing ... yet. <g>

To your question .. how do you know it "hasn't" or "won't" happen? What time frame are you using? Remember Past and Future are just constructs of mind. I had GOTTTEN my boat the INSTANT I asked for it! ... but it took TIME to play out in my experience.




6. Is there any objective reality? If not, then how come you can bring a brown table into a room full of people, yet everyone will see the same thing, without you telling them what it is? And even if you told them it was a blue table, they'd still see a brown table. Doesn't that indicate that the brown table has an existence in objective reality?

To the point... NO there is not. There is only the Eternal Subject witnessing ITs own SELF. Cause and effect are the same. We experience an objective reality because of the ego. Ego used here in its spiritual context, to mean that which creates the illusion of separateness and limitation. * Which is why we NEED Grace.. That alone shatters the impure ego and awakens the individual mind/soul.. but.. that is for another post :P

When the impure ego is in control we do see through a distorded lense if you will. We experience ME and everything else as that which is NOt Me. When in fact.. like the dream analogy.. everything experienced is your own creation.
There is the Transcendent ONE which Realized Beings reference.... People erroneously assume people such as Jesus were referencing their physical form when they say I AM the ONE and the Way.. but they weren't. All these rare beings KNOW that they are ALL the very same ONE. Why? because they have defeated the ego. They are not tricked by the appearance of form.. they see through the forms, to the pure Consicouenssness instead... everywhere.


7. To what degree do thoughts create reality? Are there any limits? If so, then why doesn't Wayne Dyer or Deepak Chopra define any? And aren't they misleading people into thinking that their thoughts are all powerful by not doing so? Or do they have a vested non-spiritual interest in promoting this concept? If there are no limits, then why can't you materialize and dematerialize matter in the physical universe like "Q" in "Star Trek The Next Generation"?

Consciousenss.. what we actually ARE is UNLIMTED. But the ego veils it and we experience limitation because of it. In other words.. we are limited ONLY because we THINK we are.. and we THINK we are because our ego has contracted our awareness. So, we can't just THINK ourselves out of it ! First we need to find a way to remove this "veil of ignorance" as they say in spiritual terms. That "Way" is Grace and as has been said.. When the Student is Ready .. the Master appears. IF the Student is not yet ready The Master could walk on water in front of them.. and they would not see. Seriously : P Remember.. NOTHING is actually happening "OUT THERE" . It is ALL the mind and the Master controls the mind .. and YOU are ultimately The Master. Wild hu? hhhmmm that was a lot for one sentence LOL!

Anyway... The ONLY interest those particular beings have is in your true awakeing! Trust me on that one.
Why? because they KNOW who you are.. THEM! They help YOU and they help themselves. It is that simple. Ever hear of Bhadisatvas? Same principle.

Why can't you do what Q does? Because you are not advanced enough spiritually? A point to make here... Just because some people do have these siddis, or spiritual perks does not necessarily mean they are advanced to the point that their egos have been shattered. For Realized beings these "perks" just come without them asking for them. For some .. it is just their karma to have them. I have a spiritual friend who asked The Master for the "gift" of Clairvoyance.. and received it. They ended up regretting it because it was a lot like the Midas Touch. So.. be careful what you ask for. She finally begged to have it taken away.. and it took a year to dissipate. That is just one way that The Master teaches us what is important and what is not... by giving us what we THINK we want.





8. Another variant of this principle is that "expectations create reality" as well. In other words "Expectations manifest. You attract what you think about. What you expect will be drawn to you. And what you fear also will manifest." Now if that's true, then how come most things don't go according to plan and how come expectations often fail?
My own experience is that..over time most of my expections, have been met. And some that weren't.. I was soooo grateful later that they were not : ) So I guess I can't help you there. Except that MAYBE you sabotaged yourself unknowingly by thoughts you hold. Don't underestimate that very real possibility.

9. If "expectations create reality" then how come we don't always get what we expect? How come there are so many let downs and disappointments in life?
Your Higher SELF is never disappointed. Your core BEing or Higher SELF is always in a state of Divine Bliss. You just need to REALIZE this.. literally. You, as most, only know how to identify with your impure ego.. which can make one down right miserable. This ego is the source of all suffering. Because of the ego you believe that all this STUFF is actually HAPPENING to you.. but it isn't! So ... wrong identificatoin with what/who you REALLY are is the problem here.

Purify the ego = get rid of all suffering. This is why those such as Jesus really came. NOT to get your sad suffering soul to some heaven but to free you totally from wrong identificationwith your ego. To reveal your own Highest and Perfect Nature to you.. which NEVER suffers. You need to stop identifying with Winston.. this limited creature and START identifying with your TRUE Self. There is a process, it begins with Grace.. so seek THAT. Note.. this process is NOT for whimps.. You really really want to want it more than anything! Without this longing. it is almost impossible.

The good new is.. the gift of Grace establishes this longing within us. So, again it is about knowing enough to seek Grace. Some do.. most don't. It's just not their time and so they DO tend to suffer. *(Consider... Pain is what you have.. suffering is what you CHOSE to do with that pain. They are not the same thing.)
As the ancient ones have always pointed out, The path to Truth is extremely narrow.. like the blade of a sword, and few chose to walk it. But for those who do, the rewards are endless. Cessation of all suffering to start with. But most would rather just chase sense pleasures etc, because they are unaware of what is available to them. They have yet to get a glimpse of this Supreme STATE. Obviously you are not going to seek after something that you do not know it even exists. First one needs at least a glimps of THE TRUTH. That starts the process. Almost everyone that I know of on my particular path has had FIRST a Transcendent moment of Truth. That's kind of like the ultimate dinner bell if you will. : ) People CAN ASK within for that glimps but most either don't know to or, their egos block them from doing so. They like to THINK they can do it themsleves.
Well I suppose you COULD, given enough time, empty all the oceans with a teaspoon. The impure ego would LIKE you to think you could do this all on your(small self) own, without intervention from your Higher SELF... the impure ego, your worst enemy, would then last a whole lot longer. :P



10. Another variant of this is that you will "manifest what you fear" as Wayne Dyer like to put it. If that's so, why aren't children who are afraid of the boogie man at night don't actually get harmed or taken by one? And how come children afraid of monsters under their bed don't get eaten or killed by them? How come people who get scared after watching a horror movie don't manifest the creatures from the movie into real life? How come Dracula, Werewolves, Frankenstein, Jason or Freddy Krueger haven't manifested into reality yet?>>

Fear exists within the mind... So the object of our fears exists there also. The mind has a lot of trouble differentiating between what it imagines and what it images as its "real" life.
Anyway.. if you have ever had a dream where Werewolves were after you then they HAVE manifest into your reality.

There is a close relationship to IMAGINATION and IMAGING. This whole life scenario is being IMAGED by you right now. You are doing it unconsciously. Whereas IMAGINATION is something we create via the mind knowingly. Ultimately though they are both manifest from the same place.. the mind. BTW it IS possible to be scared to death!



11. If we manifest what we fear, then how come many of our fears don't come to pass and turn out to be just due to an overactive imagination?>>
See above. Don't some people experience paranoia that stays with them their entire lives? Karma happens. It comes, it goes. Certain minds have tendancies which typically follow them for lifetime after lifetime.



12. How come when the year 2000 came, many feared that a Y2K bug might wreak havoc in society by causing many crucial computer systems to shut down, yet the scare turned out to be nothing? How come their collective fears didn't manifest?>>

Those that feared that ... experienced that fear and suffered for it didn't they? Whether an event appears to happen or does not appear to happen... People do experience emotions according to their outlook of an event. As to why the masses did not directly experience a total shut down may have been because the massess ultimately believed that enough was done to prevent such an event. BTW "we" are not the only ones "here" you know.. at this level of duality. There are far greater beings than ourselves always intervening on humanities behalf .. WHEN Necessary. It is difficult at our level though to deem what is necessary and what is not. Without the BIG Picture here it is impossible, and pointless to judge . As example... 9/11 What if.. all those souls, who's physical forms perished, did so for a reason that ultimately enhanced their own well being, as well as everyone elses? That could very well be. Remember.. Death is an illusion of the mind. What we are exists in Eternity.. We have never been born and we never die.

^ ^ ^

13. Do you really believe that if you drank cyanide or muriatic acid and believed 100 percent that it was just plain water, that it wouldn't harm you? I hope not!

Ahh actually it has been done... not by me since I am not that advanced LOL ... but YES absolutely it can and has been done. There is a great story about this Saint who someone wanted to murder. They invited them to lunch on some pretense and slipped a strong poison into the Saint's drink. The Saint drank the poison and the other man dropped dead. Such are the siddis which manifest around such Beings. Now, I do not expect anyone to just believe such things, what would be the point of that? However.. if you KNEW a true Saint and the state they occupy , then you would know such things are possible. BTW the key here is not BELIEF, but actual KNOWING. One becomes one with the Cyanide and transmutes it. These Saints btw were/are the True Alchemists. They can take the mundane and reveal its Divine Nature... ultimately everything is LOVE... literally. Its not so much that they CHANGE things but they REVEAL what everything already IS. What they CHANGE is our Perspective.

* Note Read the story in one of Ram Dass's books where his master asked him what was in Ram's pocket ( of course he already knew). Ram handed him a whole handful of LSD and whatever .. mind altering drugs, and before he could say anything The Master downed the whole lot.. all at once! Poor Ram thought The Master was going to die.. any normal person would have, but instead The Master just sat there a while quietly . Finally he said Aaahhh I see.. It's just mind stuff.
So WHY did The Master do that? To teach RAm that none of that was very important and there were better things to do than mess with that stuff. Drugs will NEVER take one all the way.. to Self Realization.




14. Since a lot of you folks also believe that how you see yourself and what you think you are will be how others see you and what others think you are, then do you really believe that if you walked into the Pentagon and believed 100 percent that you were the President of the United States, that everyone there would think that you are The President? And what if I believed that I was Superman or Batman? Would everyone believe it too?

Remember... Belief is a construct of the mind. Because you believe you look a certain way.. at your cellular level!!!... you will actually take on that appearance. How we perceive ourselves and how we in turn are perceived by "others" has a rather karmic element to it actually.. but anyway, I diverge. You keep referencing that 100% belief.. but what makes you think you can achieve that kind of belief? That is a HUGE undertaking. Sadgurus can do it ... but YOU? ahh I think not. HOw about people who can bi-locate ? they can manifest an entire and very convincing form to the minds of others..now that is POWER! : )

Remember.. nothing "PHYSICAL" ultimately exists! Everything is MIND. Can some actually project certain thoughts directly into another's mind? Yes. Is it rare? Thank goodness yes. Such powers are only entrusted to those who would not abuse them.
Actually... in the movie Star Wars doesn't the actor Obiwan use the "Force" on the storm troopers? ~ These are NOT the droids you are looking for. ~ <g> But seriously... The mind is very open to suggestion... if the suggestion is strong enough.

15. And what if an ugly fat woman walks around in public like she is super hot and sexy, and believing as such in her mind 100 percent? Would everyone then think she was super hot and sexy and desire her? Or that she was delusional? And what about the people in the insane asylum who believe they are Napoleon or Jesus Christ? Does society accept their claims? Do they then become that and become the ruler or savior of the world? >>

That is still HER reality is it not? It is true for HER ,in that moment. Of course that is just a limited projection of her own deluding ego and so is true only for her so has no real power to convince others. Their minds are still programmed to see something else. At least she has enough POWER to convince "others" that she has a body at all.. <g> because she ultimately doesn't . LOL
Man Win you really got to get your hands on the book DISAPPEARANCE OF THE UNIVERSE It is basically all explained in Gary Renard's book,and certainly goes a lot deeper than I can go here in this short post. It is a rare book in that it deals with the non dual perspective. Something MOST cannot do. Not exactly a light read and most will NOT be lead to pick it up at all. Peace, Faith
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Post by Winston » September 20th, 2008, 12:12 pm

momopi wrote:Wishing really hard that something would happen, doesn't always make it happen. That's just the fact of life.

However, there is a such thing called self-fulfilling prophecy.
I agree of course. But then why do so many New Agers, including best selling authors and California hippies who smoke pot, believe that thoughts create all external reality?

I don't get it. It's so illogical, yet they stick by it vehemently.

They can't explain how the Titanic can sink since everyone thought it was "unsinkable", for example.

They also believe that everything in the universe comes from thought. So that nothing can happen to you unless you will it, therefore every bad thing that can happen must be created by YOUR thoughts therefore they are YOUR FAULT.

Totally ridiculous. But why do so many dumb hippies believe this? I've debated them and destroyed them, yet they don't give in.
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Post by Enishi » September 20th, 2008, 2:55 pm

The average new ager is an idiot. Most of them haven't researched the actual, authentic traditions that their post-modern buffet of cherry picked beliefs is based upon. Look up stuff on taoism, buddhism or the kaballah. "Thoughts create reality" is really only true in the sense that ideas which emanate from the divine create the material plane. Thus, trying to imagine that a tree doesn't exist isnt really going to do anything (unless your will is in perfect accordance with divine will), as the idea behind the physical manifestation of the tree is independent of your own brain.

New agers who take a holier than thou position, believing that their comfortable, superficially happy lives are due to positive thinking tend to come from pampered, middle class backgrounds, frequently due to the hard work of their parents which they now scoff at.

Positive thinking can help, but even it wont erase ones past karma.

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Re: Thoughts Create Reality

Post by BeneGesseritBrother » January 18th, 2009, 1:44 am

Our thoughts and our subconscious programming has a significant effect on how we PERCEIVE reality as an individual.

However, our thoughts and subconscious programming as a collective species have a tremendous effect on our reality.

The New-Age notion is still based on an ego-driven mindset, and the illusion of the self.

As a collective consciousness, we are servants to the myths we believe in.

I think it's high time we start telling each other better stories.

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Re: Thoughts Create Reality

Post by Winston » January 19th, 2009, 12:20 pm

BeneGesseritBrother wrote:Our thoughts and our subconscious programming has a significant effect on how we PERCEIVE reality as an individual.

However, our thoughts and subconscious programming as a collective species have a tremendous effect on our reality.

The New-Age notion is still based on an ego-driven mindset, and the illusion of the self.

As a collective consciousness, we are servants to the myths we believe in.

I think it's high time we start telling each other better stories.
Here's what someone on my spirituality list had to say about your deep comments above.

--------------------------------------------

Hello Winston,
The idea of a computer program is an interesting analogy (along with the holographic idea), however I suspect that these analogies are also limited, they are usefull as they use terms and technology that we are familiar with to help us to grasp a very difficult, abstract idea (the universe as God's dream), yet I don't think that a computer is the Absolute reality. My experiences of a spiritual nature (though they are of a relatively low level) have convinced me that the reality is incredibly beautiful, amazing, magical, not cold and hard. The Hindu description of Brahman as Sat-Chit-Ananda (Existence, Consciousness & Bliss) rings true with me. Many aspects of Spiritual teachings cannot be understood intellectually, they have to experienced directly. Reading books and watching video's are good, knowledge is important, but actually participating in Spiritual practices is what gives the greatest understanding.

"The New-Age notion is still based on an ego-driven mindset, and the illusion of the self".

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Certainly the relativistic understanding of many people within the New Age movement is, however I find most serious and well respected figures with the New Age movement (such as James Redfield and Eckhart Tolle) do have solid understanding of Eastern Mysticism, just that they tend to find intermediate teachings that are more immediate and practical for a wider audience. Certainly the fact that New Age is not well defined is a problem, not all writers and speakers have the same level of understanding (for example, I read "The Reconnection" by Eric Pearl, and found the writer to have a very poor understanding of the issues he was discussing.) When I first came to New Age I saw a lot of contradiction, yet now I'm seeing more and more cohesion, although I think part of this is that now I discern carefully what is worth investing time into, whereas when I first started on this path I found it hard to discern between the Gold and the Junk.

"To my Western mind it's easier for me to accept that everything is a part of everything than it is that everything is Void."

I haven't studied Buddhism (I've only ever read a few books and bit's and pieces here and there), but it seems to me that the concept of Void is not Void in the way we think of that term in the West. I suspect it means absence of form, colour, sound, limitation, so Nothingness in one sense, yet Infite Consciousness/Spirit in the other sense. Buddhism evolved from Advaita Vedanta and Yoga, so it shares a lot of concepts, whilst using different language.

"I think it's high time we start telling each other better stories."

I agree, completely. Here's a song I love, that has some brilliant lyrics relevant to that last statement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLhn0Bkf4H0

"Cookie Jar" By Jack Johnson

I would turn on the TV
but it's so embarassing
to see all the other people
I don't know what they mean
and it was magic at first
when they spoke without sound
but now this world is gonna hurt
you better turn that thing down
Turn it around
Well it wasn't me say the boy with the gun
sure i pulled the trigger but it needed to be done
because life's been killin' me ever since it begun
you cant blame me cause i'm too young
You cant blame me, sure the killer was my son
but I didn't teach him to pull the trigger of the gun
It's the killing on his TV screen
You can't blame me, it's those images he sees
You can't blame me says the media man
Well I wasn't the one that came up with the plan
and I just point my camera what the people wanna see
man it's a two way mirror and you can't blame me
You can't blame me says the singer of the song
or the maker of the movie which he bases life on
It's only entertainment and as anyone can see
its smoke machine's a make-up, man you can't fool me
It was you
it was me
it was every man
We all got the blood on our hands
we only recieve what we demand
And if we want hell then hell is what well have
And I would turn on the TV
but it's so embarassing
to see all the other people
don't even know what they mean
and it was magic at first
but let every one down
Now this world's gonna hurt
You better turn it around
turn it around.
Last edited by Winston on December 15th, 2013, 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Winston » January 19th, 2009, 12:24 pm

Here's what my spiritual and mystical advisor had to say about this topic:

---------------------------------------------

Win << it's easier for me to accept that everything is a part of everything than it is that everything is Void. >>

Agreed... and the reason people THINK the void (as the ULTIMATE reality) is true, is because they are perceiving reality from the Finite/Dualistic mind. Truth is INfinite, IS Non Dual and its TOTAL scope cannot be perceived from a FINITE perspective. It's not that there is no void per say.. there is the perception of a void but even that void is pervaded by Pure Consciousness. It's just that the finite and dualistic mind cannot perceive this ALL Pervasive 'Light' of Consciousness that exists even there.

Bottom line... the mind which is NOT yet awakened to the Non Dual Perspective will come to the conclusion that the VOID is the ultimate reality. While one who IS awakened to the Non Dual Perspecitve will REALIZE that the void is simply another ASPECT of ITs own unlimited SELF. The void is not the unchanging Truth, ... THAT which perceives the void as an aspect of its own Awareness, Its own unlimited SELF, is the unchanging Truth.
Even while in the void The Supreme SELF, Pure Consciousness... THAT which we ALL actually are... realizes ~ I AM ~

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It has been said that at the moment of physical 'death' the awareness of most dualistic human minds moves into a transitional unknowing mode ( like our 'deep sleep' mode), before their finite mind 'comes to' in their new subtle realm surroundings. Perhaps... this is a protective measure, an easier way for some to "go across", which is less of a shock to the finite mind. * A fully realized BEing will reamain FULLY Conscious during this process and simply be Witness to the shift. To such a mind 'death' is no longer a reality, awareness itself being eternal.

This continual awareness is maintained because they are not identifying with their limited mind but with Pure Awareness itself.
Note* What we ARE.. ultimately IS ' Awareness' itself. But because we typically identify with the finite mind we EXPERIENCE times of being 'unconscious' or unaware. That is simply the contracted mind which is unaware... WE.. what we actually are is NEVER unaware and simply WATCHES our 'perceived limited self ' being.... unaware. Wild hu? : )

Then there are those in duality who have totally missed ANY experience of a transition at all.. these are the ones who really need some help because their minds are in so much denial that they don't even understand that a "physical" death has taken place. I suspect that this is where your "ghosts" or disembodied souls most often come from. They have SOOOO many attachements to this physical realm that they can't let go... they get STUCK here and can't move on. This is one reason it is suggested that those who greave a lost one should not greave for a real long time but do give them permission to move on, otherwise it works to keep that soul stuck here when they really need to move on to other experiences.

Note: Dual and Non Dual have nothing to do with physical vs non physical realms of consciousness. The State of duality simply means that the individual mind ( be it in a physical or non-physical subtle body), perceives itself as being limited AND seperate from everyone and everything else. They hold the perception of being "The DOer" .
The Non Dual State is a state BEYOND Experiences of the mind. All is perceived to be ITs own Perfect SELF and there is NO Action going on here... just pure BE~ing. It is BLISS, not as an emotion but as the Supreme STATE of BEing. But such words have no true meaning until one allows ones self to transcend one's own individual mind. Dualistic words can only begin to HINT as something more... something totally unfathomable to the finite mind. So, just to clarify, dual or non dual has nothing to do with physical death. That is about Death of the impure ego... this being the "One Death" which those such as Jesus addressed.
Peace, Faith

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Post by Winston » January 20th, 2009, 2:16 am

An interesting letter I received about this topic:


"Hey Winston,

This was a good article, and I'm definitely glad you wrote it. But there are some points to still consider.

Much of the "thoughts influence reality" philosophy started in the 1900's. Napoleon Hill's thesis in "Think And Grow Rich" is just what the title says--unwavering focus on a goal (making money) manifests it. By the way, Napoleon Hill was a very, very rich man.

I also approach this topic with skepticism. But the thing is, it seems to be a core principle of many succesful people--from Napoleon Hill to many others. They don't wait for some milestone before living their life as if they are rich and abundant. Rather, they believe they already are, and then it starts to fall in place around them. So for some, it really works.

It also seems to explain many miracles from things like prayer. Instead of believing there's an all powerful God "listening" to our thoughts, instead we are the ones making the miracles ourselves.

So I think this "law of attraction" business works like this: the more 'intangible' the goal, the more likely it will manifest by psychically altering energy patterns. You can't change the law of physics, but you can set into motion certain events that may increase chances. These events are generally determined by human behavior, since we are gridded in most closely with fellow humans--inexorably linked in a sense.

So absolute belief in, say, making a million dollars may work like this: your thoughts alter higher energy patterns, which subtly influences the mass of human consciousness, which helps direct a person to stay a little longer at a party. You meet this person, which sets into motion more events in your favor by making this connection.

Deepak said "Do not stress about what the outcome is. Instead, remember you are party of the universe, and stress is blocking out what the universe naturally wants to accomplish". This is similar to much of this philosophy. But, since abiding by this attitude, I have become so much more succesful at things I do!

So, there's something to all of this in a sense, just not what some 'gurus' teach. No, you can't actually manifest physical objects, fly, or anything of that sort. And, thank god we can't. Life would be chaos."
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Post by BeneGesseritBrother » January 21st, 2009, 3:43 pm

"Agreed... and the reason people THINK the void (as the ULTIMATE reality) is true, is because they are perceiving reality from the Finite/Dualistic mind."

True! There are many good thoughts in this post.

"The idea of a computer program is an interesting analogy (along with the holographic idea), however I suspect that these analogies are also limited"

Oh for sure, but any analogy has its benefits and limitations.

"The New-Age notion is still based on an ego-driven mindset, and the illusion of the self."

I was wrong to be so all-inclusive in this statement...Eckhart Tolle, Deepak, and some others would definitely qualify as a new age person who doesn't teach from an ego-driven mindset. I think what i'm referring to is my perception that the way "thoughts create reality" is taught in the mainstream tends to pick and choose choice nuggets of information and toss out a lot of the understanding of non-duality, the ego, and the nature of consciousness. I feel that personal thoughts have a huge effect on your perception of reality, which in turn does impact how you interact with reality. In my own life, I've observed that my "thoughts create reality" most demonstratably when they seem to be inspired by the creative force that drives our collective consciousness. I'm not sure my ego, my "little self" as Eckhart calls it, has anything to do with that kind of reality-creating.

"So, there's something to all of this in a sense, just not what some 'gurus' teach. No, you can't actually manifest physical objects, fly, or anything of that sort. And, thank god we can't. Life would be chaos."

But we can manifest a physical object but shaping matter with tools. We can fly by stepping on an airplane. That's how those desires of humanity have come into being on this level of reality. For example, I think we've developed telecommunications and the internet as a physical manifestation of telepathy and the collective consciousness. There's been many moments of my life where i have experienced non-local means of communication but it's alot "easier" to just log on to the Net.

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Post by ladislav » January 26th, 2009, 8:23 pm

The New Agers ignore karma that we bring into this world when we are born. At least these guys do. Thoughts do create reality but alone, and with common earthlings, very little, if they utilize their power of thoughts only.

If thoughts create reality, then how come we can’t fly or walk through walls or move mountains with our thoughts? How come even if I believed 100 percent that I could pass through a solid wall, I'd still bump my head if I tried?


Reality is not created as easily and as fast as these people believe. It involves karma, you see. It involves many many lifetimes and many, many causes stemming from your past actions, words and thoughts. Actions create the most real karma, then words, then thoughts which have the least power. As a result of all these very numerous causes you have made in the past ( a very long past) you are in this world now in this present shape. And yes, thoughts can create some reality here on the Earthly plane provided your past karma will not be too thick to prevent that reality from coming out quickly enough. Generally, having been born human in a thick material world that we are in, you have very little power over karmic forces to change them with your thoughts alone. But you still have it. Although theoretically, an electromagnetic signal from your brain can change reality, an average person will need a very strong power of "command" to imprint anything significant on his surroundings with his thoughts alone. Or walk through walls. That is possible, but very, very hard.

However, if you think bad thoughts all the time, month after month and year after year,and say negative words, it will further worsen the bad areas of your karma that are already there and make your luck worse. It will also attract more of the bad thing you normally have had happen to you. The same with positive thoughts- over and over and over again they will gradually improve karma and your chances, and will attract some better luck; improve it slightly at first and then more and more, but not really that much as far as a rank and file human goes.

Sometimes a powerful prayer can cut through karma instantly and then, miracles happen, but generally, you need either a very strong stimulus or very thin karma. See?

But walking through solid walls? Theoretically, the brain can enable you to do it, but in practice few if any people have ever done it.


2. If thoughts create reality, then how come it’s possible to trip or slip on banana peels? Wouldn’t our assumption that it was safe to walk there create a trouble-free walk?


Well, because your assumption is up against your own karmic causes which are there from a very long time. If you had accumulated enough bad luck in your life to have banana peels everywhere, it will require a lot of faith power and enlightened practice to counteract that. Again, theoretically it is possibly to affect reality to create a trouble-free walk, but we are talking about average people here. Their assumption does not produce enough reality to influence such things. With very spiritual people, who practice daily deep prayers and who can control their karma, such banana peels will appear more seldom. And it is easier to look under your feet and watch your step for banana peels than to spiritually protect yourself from them.

3. If thoughts create reality, then why did the Titanic sink when everyone “thought� it was unsinkable?



Read above. The same principle. Those people had collective karma that drew them together. And it was their karma from numerous past existences to die on that night. Just a mere belief that it was unsinkable would not be enough to affect the reality in such a way. Now, if they had practiced certain prayers and meditations that can lighten their karma and improve their faith, they would have been protected- either missed the Titanic or survived it, or something of the sorts. And many did.

4. If thoughts create reality, then why are there surprises in life? Why do both optimists and pessimists experience events that turn out better or worse than they expected? Shouldn't they have manifested whatever they expected?

Again, read the above. People bring in huge baggages of karma from past lives. They also constantly add to karma by living their present lives. So, what happens to them is a sum total of present thoughts, words and deeds which all create new karma every day, and the already existing baggage which brings about events out of the blue. Karma is layered over many lifetimes. Your expectation alone is not the only cause and factor at play, see.

5
. If thoughts create reality, then why do most things not go according to plan? By planning, wouldn’t your thoughts generated during the plan create the reality in which things went exactly according to plan?
Ibid. Plus the nature of reality is that of a constant flux. It is hard to control everything completely.
Not by people like you or me who do not engage in very serious spiritual practices.


6. Is there any objective reality?

Yeah.


If not, then how come you can bring a brown table into a room full of people, yet everyone will see the same thing, without you telling them what it is? And even if you told them it was a blue table, they'd still see a brown table. Doesn't that indicate that the brown table has an existence in objective reality?

It does, They are writing nonsense. But the objective and subjective have a strange cord that unites them through some tunnel in our subconscious mind in ways that we still do not know. Possibly, if you had developed enormous powers of the mind, you could have changed the color of the table. But people just do not waste lifetimes on doing something as useless.

7. To what degree do thoughts create reality?

In average people, you mean? Generally,to a very little degree, but, usually, very negative people seem to have worse luck than very positive people. Although, it is not always the case. Remember- we have karma from the past and we never know what area of it will come out in our reality- some big chunk, a good one or a bad one can come out at any time. However, there are religious practices that bring you to a very high degree of awareness where, after a long time of doing them, you develop what I would call a 'faith muscle" and you yourself will feel its degree of control and its limits.

Usually, it works well at protecting oneself against harm or reducing harm, getting jobs, being in the right place at the right time. Potentially, it is unlimited, but to develop it you would need to pray very very hard for many hours every day and concentrate very very much. Then you will see reality shifts, strange coincidence that work in you favor, etc. You will be able to rise above karma and start attracting things to yourself, but as an average Joe you still can do very little with it- just basically, use it for small things. Attract money in times of hardship, food, possibly, a partner. But it is hard work developing even such a small power of thought. It is much easier to use actions and words that just sit and develop the commanding ability of thoughts alone.


Are there any limits?

Theoretically, no. Just like E= mc2 means that inside ever matter there is enormous energy. In your cellphone there is energy of many hydrogen bombs. Potentially, that is. If you split every atom. However,can you and other average people bring it out? Potentially, they can. But in practice? Very rarely.

That is where the problem lies. Mobilizing the power. It is not that easy, you see.

It took scientists many years to create the hydrogen bomb or the atomic bomb. And we are only now starting to study the power of the mind.

So, the limits are in your mind but only because your mind is really not that developed. And few if any humans could have developed such unlimited abilities.


If so, then why doesn’t Wayne Dyer or Deepak Chopra define any? And aren’t they misleading people into thinking that their thoughts are all powerful by not doing so?


Maybe they don't know what they are and do not want to delve into topics that make them appear ignorant. I really don't know.


Or do they have a vested non-spiritual interest in promoting this concept? If there are no limits, then why can’t you materialize and dematerialize matter in the physical universe like "Q" in "Star Trek The Next Generation"?


Probably because potentially there are no limits.

It has been done by Indian gurus after decades of very, very intense meditations. But they rarely use that practice. Sometimes, they can make a flower manifest. In Tibet, monks have create people out of thin air. But these are very crude experiments. And after many years of assidious meditation and concentration. Still, the results are very weak.

Now, an average Western intellectual doing that? Fat chance.

8. Another variant of this principle is that "expectations create reality" as well. In other words "Expectations manifest. You attract what you think abou
t.


Again, it depends. It is basically using a visualization technique and imprinting it upon the energy of the universe. Potentially, it is supposed to make things manifest because we are sculpting new reality by visualizing and imprinting upon matter which is also a form of energy. However, in practice, we,average humans, again run up against many obstacles and other factors- one thing is that our karma has drawn us into a very thick corner of the universe- where the matter is heavy. It will take a VERY powerful thought to make anything seriously happen against the background of the already existing reality and karma. And most people do no have such a power developed to that extent. Then , you may have made some karmic causes that have put you into a situation where the effects are huge, and just "thinking" will not change them. As a matter of fact, a relaxed and optimistic state of mind often allows bad effects of past karma seep through even easier. In many cases, expecting certain things brings disappointments.

However, under more or less normal circumstances, if you visualize the same thing over and over and over again and take action, slowly the moving train of your karma starts changing direction, and will eventually take you where you want to go. Provided, you have enough spiritual control over your karma.

In some people,the karma is very light and the power of thoughts is strong, and well, they can do it pretty well. With other people, the karma is very thick, the power of thoughts is weak. It may take them a couple of lifetimes before the bad karma is burnt out and the visualized "expected" object manifests. But do not forget that actions are even more effective than thoughts. So people build things, travel to places, say things, study things and take action. It is faster to invent dynamite and blow up a mountain than to sit for countless aeons in deep meditation to develop the potential power to move it with your faith. Thought are much better used as precursors to much more effective words and actions.

What you expect will be drawn to you. And what you fear also will manifest." Now if that's true, then how come most things don't go according to plan and how come expectations often fail?

Ibid, read the above.

9. If "expectations create reality" then how come we don't always get what we expect? How come there are so many let downs and disappointments in life?

Same thing. How effective and strong is your present power of thought against the reality which has taken you many lifetimes to get into? It may take a long time to change it. With some people. And with others it may be faster, but people usually find that actions suited to thoughts have a much better effect. Taking proper precautions, making contingency plans is more effective, you see. But if you can bring about very strong thoughts coupled with strong words and actions, you maximize the overall positive results.

So as far as the thoughts alone go, the principle works in theory, but everyone experiences different results based on:

1) the "power of command" present in their mind.
2) the current environment which is the reflection of your karma and your past and present actions.


10. Another variant of this is that you will "manifest what you fear" as Wayne Dyer like to put it. If that's so, why aren't children who are afraid of the boogie man at night don't actually get harmed or taken by one?


Potentially, if these children had spent years or a few lifetimes as gurus honing such powers through intense meditation, prayer and visualization, they would be able to bring about actual physical beings . But most kids cannot.They do not have the inner spiritual muscle to effectuate such changes in their environment. What happens with normal people, and kids, is that negative thoughts strengthen the already existing negative karma, and bad things start popping out and happening more often. And these things fall within the realm of the reality of where these kids reside- planet Earth where such monsters do not exist. But negative fears repeated over and over and over again begin to create patterns and affect the environment more- sicknesses become more frequent, accidents become more common, people fail at job interviews and get out of whack with the universe more and more, They begin to slowly attract worse and worse people and circumstances into their surroundings. But again, there is the karma thing, too. If you have very very good karma from birth, a few negative thoughts will have very little if any effect, but if your karma is average, slowly, you begin to create more and more bad luck,


And how come children afraid of monsters under their bed don't get eaten or killed by them? How come people who get scared after watching a horror movie don't manifest the creatures from the movie into real life? How come Dracula, Werewolves, Frankenstein, Jason or Freddy Krueger haven't manifested into reality yet?

Ibid.

11. If we manifest what we fear, then how come many of our fears don't come to pass and turn out to be just due to an overactive imagination?


There is another law involved. When you fear something very very much, you may just burn out that karma by virtually living that event in your mind and feeling the pain of it. It is another mechanism that sometime comes into play. With some people, of course. Not with others.

12. How come when the year 2000 came, many feared that a Y2K bug might wreak havoc in society by causing many crucial computer systems to shut down, yet the scare turned out to be nothing? How come their collective fears didn't manifest?

Not strong enough to influence the very thick physical reality around them. Plus, many computers had already been adjusted, as well.

13. Do you really believe that if you drank cyanide or muriatic acid and believed 100 percent that it was just plain water, that it wouldn't harm you? I hope not!


An average human cannot summon up such control over matter. Not you, not me. This requires enormous spiritual powers. But some saints and monks and other very, very spiritual people could potentially do that. How about people who can walk on coals? A similar effect.

Again, we as common humans are not developing these powers. It would take decades of assidious practice to reach that stage of control.

14. Since a lot of you folks also believe that how you see yourself and what you think you are will be how others see you and what others think you are, then do you really believe that if you walked into the Pentagon and believed 100 percent that you were the President of the United States, that everyone there would think that you are The President? And what if I believed that I was Superman or Batman? Would everyone believe it too?

Not with the powers that an average Joe or Jane have. But, generally, if we feel negative about ourselves we do give out some vibrations that people pick up on and we attract strange events and reactions. If we have a very high vibration, and a very enlightened state of mind, people see us as "shiny" and confident and respond to us differently.

But to accomplish the feat that you have described, oh, it would take powers that are potentially there, but that are very, very hard to bring out. It would be easier for you to pray to be born in a parallel universe where there is another USA ( there are infinite USA's, actually, out there) where you could become President in another lifetime, than to command those changes that you are talking about.


15. And what if an ugly fat woman walks around in public like she is super hot and sexy, and believing as such in her mind 100 percent? Would everyone then think she was super hot and sexy and desire her?


Well, you do not need powers like that. Just go live in Egypt and she's got it made. Even in Italy, fat ugly women walk around like they are God's gift to humanity.

But seriously...

Again, the same principle applies. Humans have the potential ability to warp every type of reality by mobilizing their spiritual powers, but what you are saying will take almost thermonuclear type powers, even more than that. Potentially, they are there, in theory that is, but are extremely hard to bring out by an average fat woman like that. It will be far easier for her to go Morocco or Turkey or Italy and get that kind of reaction than to devote lifetimes of meditation and be reborn over and over again and then eat to be fat and try to pull such a feat.

Or she can diet and get plastic surgery and improve herself. It would be easier.

In the case where she has a very strong spirituality and is positive and very very happy, she will magnetically attract people and seem attractive to them in well, in an almost physical way.

Or that she was delusional? And what about the people in the insane asylum who believe they are Napoleon or Jesus Christ? Does society accept their claims? Do they then become that and become the ruler or savior of the world?

Ibid. Again not with such undeveloped minds. They cannot. Too much power is required for an average nutter to handle. It is possible, in theory, but very hard to accomplish unless the wackos spend numerous lifetimes in monasteries polishing their powers of prayer. But it would still be easier for them to be reborn in a next universe where there is an opportunity to become such people than to bring forth such changes in a nut house while shaking and just saying- "I am Napoleon, I am Jesus Christ".

So, in conclusion, thoughts do create reality, but with most people in the world, the effects of thoughts alone are not very noticeable. One needs to be either a very religious man who polishes his power of faith and prayer regularly or someone with very developed powers since birth. The first option is available to most people but we are still up against karma no matter what we do with thoughts, words and actions. If you know of a way to bypass karma, or cut through it, or minimize and change it , and continuously train your faith and prayer "muscle", your thoughts will definitely influence your environment in a positive way.

However, average humans rarely devote their lives to such pursuits.

Also, New Agers rarely teach about how karma affects our lives. Some have been born with very good karma and very little bad karma and an already strong
spirituality to begin with. So, things work out for them better, they have better control over their environments and think other people can easily catch up with them. Some may, and some may not. It depends on the thickness of the people's karma, their willingness to battle it and make better life manifest itself and the time and effort they devote to such things.
Last edited by ladislav on January 28th, 2009, 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Enishi » January 27th, 2009, 4:56 am

Great post Ladislav.

I do somewhat disagree though about thoughts being the least important aspect.

According to Daskalos, the Christian mystic from the book Magus of Strovolos, along with some others I've read, the thoughts and intentions you put into your actions are actually one of the most important karma creators.

Thing is, for the average person, even if they're attempting to create positive thoughts, they usually have lots of subconscious baggage they haven't yet purified. Also, the good karma you create from right thinking may not come back to you until the afterlife, or in your next incarnation.

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Post by Winston » January 27th, 2009, 7:16 am

Enishi wrote:Great post Ladislav.

I do somewhat disagree though about thoughts being the least important aspect.

According to Daskalos, the Christian mystic from the book Magus of Strovolos, along with some others I've read, the thoughts and intentions you put into your actions are actually one of the most important karma creators.

Thing is, for the average person, even if they're attempting to create positive thoughts, they usually have lots of subconscious baggage they haven't yet purified. Also, the good karma you create from right thinking may not come back to you until the afterlife, or in your next incarnation.
W: I think what Ladislav was saying was that thoughts don't have much of an effect in the short term, but actions have a more relevant and practical effect in this world. Of course thoughts have their places, since thoughts often lead to actions. But again, they are limited in power, at least for us in our present state.

Good post and answers Ladislav. I should add it to the back of my article.
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Post by ladislav » January 28th, 2009, 1:59 am

Enishi wrote:Great post Ladislav.

I do somewhat disagree though about thoughts being the least important aspect.

According to Daskalos, the Christian mystic from the book Magus of Strovolos, along with some others I've read, the thoughts and intentions you put into your actions are actually one of the most important karma creators.

Thing is, for the average person, even if they're attempting to create positive thoughts, they usually have lots of subconscious baggage they haven't yet purified. Also, the good karma you create from right thinking may not come back to you until the afterlife, or in your next incarnation.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant thoughts alone, not thoughts that lead to actions.

To illustrate- put a pen in front of you and

1) Think the following thought: " Pen! Move!"
2) Say these words to someone in the room- Excuse me! Please move this pen!
3) Take the pen with your hand and move it yourself

Which of these three had the least effect by itself?
A brain is a terrible thing to wash!

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