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Can women actually write software?

Discussions computers, internet and mobile technology (cell phones, smart phones, iPads).

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » October 16th, 2012, 9:47 pm

momopi wrote:I've worked in IT industry for over 15 years and have meet both good women software developers and completely useless women software developers. Back when Anderson Consulting was still around, they were famous for sending fresh college grad girls to Fortune 500 clients to work, and in reality they had no experience and were there to get on-the-job training at their client's expense. After the newbie gets trained, they become senior programmers and charge even more money. So we paid a lot of money to basically run a school for them. After a few years of playing suckers, we got rid of them. On the plus side, the girls were usually young and pretty.

Recently, I've worked at 2 companies that provide online products and services. The girls that we hire out of college tend to be much higher caliber in webdev or iOS/Android development. In order to pass the interview process they have to do the whiteboard test (like Google). No computers, just a white board and marker -- show us you can code on the whiteboard, then draw SDLC, waterfall, agile, etc.

Personally, I've an old fan of Roberta Williams. She's the women on the far right side in this pic:

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Williams
Ouch, the young consultant syndrome - thanks God companies have learned not to flush their money down the toilet that way a couple of recessions ago. The simple fact of life is though that someone just has to train the young, and that has a cost to be born by one or more of the involved parties: school and academia, service provider, end client. Many corporations usually have a well structured graduate career path, and from what I have seen most of the young men and women who join the ranks do look smart and do their jobs with wit and dedication. Consider that dry-running software and problem solving via design and diagramming on a whiteboard are standard practice in most face to face interviews. Clearly (some) girls may have something nicer to strut around as they wave that marker and address the interviewers. When it comes to technical knowledge and team fit, though, hiring a woman only on the basis of diversity, or worse, looks, and not because she is in the top 10% of the candidate pool, is something very few people want to take the risk of doing. Especially in times like these, where budgets are tight and full-time resources are particularly precious.

LOL Roberta Williams...of Sierra on-line memory! :lol: OK so what about this...not the same kind of graphical impact as RW, a pioneering figure in history of computing nonetheless. Grace Hopper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

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publicduende
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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by publicduende » October 16th, 2012, 10:10 pm

Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:Peter, firstly: what's the point of telling Winston that you were leaving for good when your "superior trolling quality" alter ego is still around?
Obviously I'm not Peter, you moron. I don't work in the software industry and Peter seems to think Indian developers are good.
Since you have, in the past, entertained the thought that I am a woman, or worse, a collective of women on a forum-disrupting rampage, then I have a right to think you and PAN could be the same person. Mind you, I'm not the only one who believes you're Peter and your sole role as a forum persona is give a shroud of support to his outlandish claims.
Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:I personally know women who work as software engineer or any other satellite activity, like business analysis, project management down to UX design (not just web, but also a .NET toolkit called Microsoft Expression). I know women who work for Microsoft, IBM, Logica, Accenture, as well as any major investment bank and hedge fund I have worked at. They are from Britain and Ukraine, Poland and India, Spain and mainland China. I even met one (in Singapore) from Cebu, an ASP.NET developer and quite a cutie, if you ask me.
Yes they tend to congregate in peripheral sectors where they can get paid for talking shit while other people do the actual work. As to the supposed programmers, what would be some examples of great stuff they have ACTUALLY DONE, as opposed to their titles and salaries?
I judge based on the people I have met at work and often interacted with as team mates or occasional references. I have also met a couple of bad ones, too, but - as usual - that is no basis to state all of them are bad. They don't get paid for talking shit. They get involved with the same kind of work any male programmer does, including communicating their ideas to their peers and managers via meetings, documentation, acceptance tests, white papers etc. This is software engineering, this is the common practice. They haven't invented one for men, and one for women, yet.
Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:Even if their behaviour is indeed subject to hormone swings, what has this got to do with their ability to write, test and deliver good code? And more in general, what has this got to do with their ability to do any job that was (or is) in a traditionally male-dominated industry?
Women lack any kind of belief in objective reality and simply act out whatever fantasy those they regard as being in authority put in front of them. Since different fantasies are presented by different authorities, it is perfectly possible for them to be acting on contradictory propositions at the same time. Such a mentality is not conducive to creative thought that fits in with the rest of the universe.
Where the heck is this coming from? It sounds like a textbook definition of a schizoid personality. Even when true, I don't think the above would only apply to women, but men as well. And after all, it appears to me that the only one who is speaking, hopefully not acting upon, his (paranoid) fantasies is you right now.
Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:You're no better than those doctors in 50s America who turned up to KKK meetings and wrote erudite papers on brain or skull morphology explaining why black people were intellectually inferior to whites. Then more and more of those black people worked hard enough to get out of poverty and started to get college degrees and PhDs and the same jobs as the whites, battling against prejudices and social handicaps of all sorts, performing just as fine.
Such doctors have been proven right. Sixty years after Brown vs. the School Board, black people remain a standard deviation below white people in every measure of intellectual performance and are only included in professions requiring such performance in any numbers because of ongoing open-ended forced integration, and their inclusion is why many services in Amerika are ridiculously expensive and suck. The situation is similar for women. But of course that actual facts of the situation don't matter to you because you just believe whatever Oprah tells you like any common female.
On what basis have they been proved right? Sources (non-Makow, non-extreme rightwing), please? And even if the black community continued to live in segregation, away from expressing their true potential in great numbers, don't you think that continues to be, at least in the US, a social issue, rather than an ethnological or anthropological one? You want a proof of this? Come over to the UK, where no affirmative action or quotas exist across the entire education system. If you look at the stats you will see this kind of deviation from the mean being a function of social and cultural background - for gods' sake even the postcode where the people live - but absolutely not race or ethnical background.

I don't want to sound crude but, ya know...every country has the (black, white, brown, etc.) people they deserve. Cuba and the UK have black doctors, lawyers, bankers and managers. US have hordes of white Caucasian men of "pure" Scandinavian or German ancestry who are underschooled and overweight, hooked on media meth to forget the daily misery of being devoid of a higher purpose.

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by terminator » October 16th, 2012, 10:17 pm

Cornfed wrote:The very idea of women writing original computer code seems crazy given that they are all basket cases who think their own hysterical emotions define reality. When I've posed this question, manginas in the software industry will sometimes claim that women can do useful stuff but generally do so in evasive terms (like claiming the women are "involved" in software development) and can't come up with any specifics. Often the manginas can't even come up with any specifics about what software they themselves have produced, leading me to believe that the reason they regard women as their equals is that they are equally useless. Meanwhile you hear lots of stories of men showing clueless females how to use their e-mail and such only to have the females promoted over them into senior development positions.

My belief is that some women in the industry may be doing quasi-useful secretarial type work, but most female so-called developers are total frauds stealing money from the system, not unlike essentially all women claiming to do non-menial jobs. Can anyone with experience in the industry comment? Also, do most female developers even pretend to be able to do their job? If you asked them to, for example, write a program that takes in a string and writes it out in reverse without using an existing function, would the generally even be able to do that? My suspicion is that they wouldn't in most cases.
I've worked in IT and I've found women to be useless shills. I've also found that US women are worthless employees (and wives) they are desperate to find some sexual harassment or reason to "dob-in" the employer, so women are just hired to do their nails and look pretty all day at the front desk. Expecting more of them is like expecting a baby to draw the Mona Lisa - it's beyond them. No matter how many feminists deny it, it's true!

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by Cornfed » October 18th, 2012, 9:41 am

publicduende wrote:I judge based on the people I have met at work and often interacted with as team mates or occasional references. I have also met a couple of bad ones, too, but - as usual - that is no basis to state all of them are bad. They don't get paid for talking shit. They get involved with the same kind of work any male programmer does, including communicating their ideas to their peers and managers via meetings, documentation, acceptance tests, white papers etc. This is software engineering, this is the common practice. They haven't invented one for men, and one for women, yet.
It seems to me that you regard women as real programmers just because they turn up and go through the motions of being a programmer, regardless of whether they actually produce anything or not. If it were the case that they were actually capable of producing quality original code it would be easy for you to rattle off examples of systems they had coded, algorithms they had invented etc.

The rest of your post indicates you are so ignorant of basic facts about the human condition and the society you live in that it must be like being deaf or blind to be you. Sensible posters on this forum are doing you a big favor by presenting you information if only you will research the issues for yourself.

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Post by momopi » October 20th, 2012, 9:41 am

Cornfed wrote: OK so that's an example of incompetent females playing you for chumps, and the fact that this could go on for years suggests what might be happening in the wider industry. Do you have any examples of women who actually know what they are doing?
Absolutely. I'm not a programmer so I cannot comment on quality of the code, other than observing code review, smoke testing, and QA/STG test results. But as Change Control/Project Coordinator, I can say that from personal experience, women application developers tend to babysit their project or change through production, versus male application developers tend to check their code in and wander off with poor follow-through. To cite one example, say if a project is on hold pending some changes by the business intelligence team. The women app dev will be sociable and go over to the BI group and chat with them, and get them to open a ticket for the change and assign it to themselves. I don't have to do anything and the project moves along. With male app dev's, some would just sit and scratch their arse, I have to look over their shoulders and do the follow-through for them. Women developers are also more likely to take the initiative and contact customers/stakeholders to get clarifications.


---------------------

On side note... I used to own the original Amiga 1000 with A1300 genlock and huge metal box memory expansion (1 MB?) to the side, and 2 external floppy drives. @_@

I think I still have the AmigaDOS book and Kickstart discs somewhere.

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Post by Cornfed » October 20th, 2012, 10:15 am

momopi wrote:
Cornfed wrote: OK so that's an example of incompetent females playing you for chumps, and the fact that this could go on for years suggests what might be happening in the wider industry. Do you have any examples of women who actually know what they are doing?
Absolutely. I'm not a programmer so I cannot comment on quality of the code, other than observing code review, smoke testing, and QA/STG test results. But as Change Control/Project Coordinator, I can say that from personal experience, women application developers tend to babysit their project or change through production, versus male application developers tend to check their code in and wander off with poor follow-through. To cite one example, say if a project is on hold pending some changes by the business intelligence team. The women app dev will be sociable and go over to the BI group and chat with them, and get them to open a ticket for the change and assign it to themselves. I don't have to do anything and the project moves along. With male app dev's, some would just sit and scratch their arse, I have to look over their shoulders and do the follow-through for them. Women developers are also more likely to take the initiative and contact customers/stakeholders to get clarifications.
You're employed to manage software engineers without being able to read code? Has the world gone mad?

Of course women go around socializing. It is what they do in life and allows them to seem like they are contributing when they are doing little or nothing and get men to do their work for them. Do you know of any examples of where original systems or algorithms or anything requiring creative human thought was developed by women without substantial input from men? A certain amount of coding is monkey work that could be learned to be done by anyone, so perhaps women can do that. My theory is that they have zero capacity to do anything genuinely creative. Is there any substantial body of work that disproves this theory? I have to assume there isn't because wherever I've asked this question people who should be able to simply rattle off examples if such existed are strangely evasive.

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by publicduende » October 20th, 2012, 10:56 am

Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:I judge based on the people I have met at work and often interacted with as team mates or occasional references. I have also met a couple of bad ones, too, but - as usual - that is no basis to state all of them are bad. They don't get paid for talking shit. They get involved with the same kind of work any male programmer does, including communicating their ideas to their peers and managers via meetings, documentation, acceptance tests, white papers etc. This is software engineering, this is the common practice. They haven't invented one for men, and one for women, yet.
It seems to me that you regard women as real programmers just because they turn up and go through the motions of being a programmer, regardless of whether they actually produce anything or not. If it were the case that they were actually capable of producing quality original code it would be easy for you to rattle off examples of systems they had coded, algorithms they had invented etc.

The rest of your post indicates you are so ignorant of basic facts about the human condition and the society you live in that it must be like being deaf or blind to be you. Sensible posters on this forum are doing you a big favor by presenting you information if only you will research the issues for yourself.
What do you mean by "go through the motions of being a programmer"? Pretend to tick something on the keyboard and smile every time someone peeks at your screen? :) I may be ignorant about the human condition (albeit I'm unsure what amazing life experience makes you think you have such an edge over me and many other adult posters here), but if there's one thing I know very well, that's the software engineering industry. Women are a minority in this industry, it's a fact. Some of them are mediocre to bad, granted, but that also applies to male developers in a similar percentage. There is nothing an intelligent, motivated woman software engineering can't to compared to her male counterpart, there's no evidence of the contrary, apart from some raunchy humour people - even myself - like to pull out for lunchtime break laughs. The only bias I have noticed is that women do tend to be slightly less ambitious than men, if anything because they don't feel the pressure of to strive to improve their skillsets in order to get promotions and/or pay rises.

About your idea of producing, the software industry is a varied one. Not everything that is produced is code (e.g. text that gets compiled to an executable or module). There are specs, design documents, data models, automation and acceptance test scripts, deployment scripts, app configuration, etc. So if a woman were a business analyst or a tester you would deem her useless because all she would produce would be a bunch of Word or Excel documents, or XML files?

What are you exactly trying to prove starting threads like these? Again, you're playing on stereotypes, and on the frustrations of a few of us who have gone through bitter divorces or rejections and have chosen to react like children or early teens, instead of adults.

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by Cornfed » October 20th, 2012, 11:19 am

publicduende wrote: What do you mean by "go through the motions of being a programmer"? Pretend to tick something on the keyboard and smile every time someone peeks at your screen? :)
Yes, or busying yourself filling in timesheets, rushing off to meetings etc. For an incompetent man this would be a bit of a drag, but for women faking their way through life and emphasizing style over substance is what they do.
About your idea of producing, the software industry is a varied one. Not everything that is produced is code (e.g. text that gets compiled to an executable or module). There are specs, design documents, data models, automation and acceptance test scripts, deployment scripts, app configuration, etc.
Right, and a lot of this stuff is simple secretarial-type work that a child, and therefore a woman could do. Of course the women doing it are given grandiose titles and pay to pretend they are doing something other than monkey work. I have to assume you know they are not capable of genuine software authorship because if they were you would already have given lots of examples by now.

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by publicduende » October 20th, 2012, 6:13 pm

Cornfed wrote:
About your idea of producing, the software industry is a varied one. Not everything that is produced is code (e.g. text that gets compiled to an executable or module). There are specs, design documents, data models, automation and acceptance test scripts, deployment scripts, app configuration, etc.
Right, and a lot of this stuff is simple secretarial-type work that a child, and therefore a woman could do. Of course the women doing it are given grandiose titles and pay to pretend they are doing something other than monkey work. I have to assume you know they are not capable of genuine software authorship because if they were you would already have given lots of examples by now.
What makes you think it's secretarial work that a child can do? So by extension any man working as BA, a project manager, a tester, is a useless appendix to the heroic developer who churns out code? That's a pitiful stereotype. In fact even writing interesting, when not innovative, code is often hard when time is scarce and pressure from stakeholders and management is mounting.

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Post by C.J. » October 20th, 2012, 6:24 pm

Can women actually write software? Duh. :P

I've known a woman who could write some damn good C++ programs using Allegro. But it depends on the assignment and their skillset. Men are more inclined to be great software developers, because the problems involving such development were created by men. Not only that, focus through problem solving is key, something women inherently don't have.

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Post by designer » October 20th, 2012, 7:02 pm

'publicduende' I was wondering when you'd crawl out from under your rock with new Pro-female rhetoric. Anyhow, by the way I work in Development also. The females I have met in the areas in which I work are pretty low. They tend to have huge egos and produce mediocre crap at best. They lack imagination and only (like most women) program for money. It's just a job, many women seek higher education and certain positions not because they desire to help advance humanity. But simply to make money. For them academia, the humanities are all about making more money. The educate themselves to perform a task for the sake of money and only money. They seek money and are much more materialistic than men. Everything is about money and how they can 'rise above' others with their material possessions. Where I live 9 out of every 10 BMW, Porsche or Merc owners are women. It sickens me given that their is a striking contrast to most men who tend to drive junk or very economical autos here. American women are scum and I look forward to the day (soon) when their whole little world comes crashing down on them. There will be in for a huge wake up call. Everything is primed and set in this new matriarchal society. I hope you know that unrest is coming.

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Post by publicduende » October 20th, 2012, 7:03 pm

C.J. wrote:Can women actually write software? Duh. :P

I've known a woman who could write some damn good C++ programs using Allegro. But it depends on the assignment and their skillset. Men are more inclined to be great software developers, because the problems involving such development were created by men. Not only that, focus through problem solving is key, something women inherently don't have.
As I said above, unfortunately most software engineering problems to solve in standard commercial software development are so menial that any decent developer, male or female alike, would be able to tackle it and deliver. If you go to academia, where research projects often require solving complex challenges in software, you will see lots of women perform just as good as men. The bias here is that fewer women than men leave academia to venture into the industry. This is one of the main reasons why smart women are far less visible than men in the commercial software arena, regardless of numbers.

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Post by publicduende » October 20th, 2012, 7:15 pm

designer wrote:'publicduende' I was wondering when you'd crawl out from under your rock with new Pro-female rhetoric. Anyhow, by the way I work in Development also. The females I have met in the areas in which I work are pretty low. They tend to have huge egos and produce mediocre crap at best. They lack imagination and only (like most women) program for money. It's just a job, many women seek higher education and certain positions not because they desire to help advance humanity. But simply to make money. For them academia, the humanities are all about making more money. The educate themselves to perform a task for the sake of money and only money. They seek money and are much more materialistic than men. Everything is about money and how they can 'rise above' others with their material possessions. Where I live 9 out of every 10 BMW, Porsche or Merc owners are women. It sickens me given that their is a striking contrast to most men who tend to drive junk or very economical autos here. American women are scum and I look forward to the day (soon) when their whole little world comes crashing down on them. There will be in for a huge wake up call. Everything is primed and set in this new matriarchal society. I hope you know that unrest is coming.
How you could go from women being bad at your industry (I assume you're more of a web/UI designer than a developer, but may be wrong) to expressing your fear for social unrest, in just a handful of sentences, is amazing and shows the kind of logic that defines most if not all your posts. There are crappy women at any job, just like men. At BNP Paribas where I used to work 2 years ago, the team sitting next to us was developing a cutting edge FX trading platform in Microsoft Silverlight. The UI design skills required were, at least at the time, extremely niche (XAML with Expression Blend + Designer) and the team lead resorted to asking a few UI designers straight from Microsoft. They sent us three designers, one men and two women. All three of them were top-notch. One woman, the more senior of the lot, was not only extremely fast at translating UI requirements into working XAML, she was also great at creating mock-ups and documents and explaining the advantage of using one custom control over another, etc. And, as we are quite on the right forum for such statement, may I add she was a real hottie?, too?

Don't blame women for desiring money. Do you think men who work in software in, say, an investment bank are in for the poetry of coding and improving their karma? It's a job to all of us, like it or not. Some software jobs are more boring than others. If anything, it's men who have the mix of pragmatism, patience and ambition to stick to an unimpressive job for the sake of getting their payslip, or hoping for a promotion, or getting that precious experience on their CV, in order to move upwards. This pseudo-romantic view you entertain, that men are brave geniuses while women are materialistic mediocrities, just wouldn't cut anywhere else than in this forum.

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Post by Cornfed » October 20th, 2012, 8:16 pm

designer wrote:'publicduende' I was wondering when you'd crawl out from under your rock with new Pro-female rhetoric. Anyhow, by the way I work in Development also. The females I have met in the areas in which I work are pretty low. They tend to have huge egos and produce mediocre crap at best. They lack imagination and only (like most women) program for money. It's just a job, many women seek higher education and certain positions not because they desire to help advance humanity. But simply to make money. For them academia, the humanities are all about making more money. The educate themselves to perform a task for the sake of money and only money. They seek money and are much more materialistic than men. Everything is about money and how they can 'rise above' others with their material possessions.
That is another thing. Women really don't give a damn about most of the work they claim to be doing. All they are capable of focusing on is themselves and, to a much lesser extent, their children. Slight exceptions might occur in jobs that are generalizations of their female role such as nursing. Of course everyone is ultimately in it for the money, but most men in non-menial jobs are at least interested in certain aspects of the job to some extent. Try asking a woman about her job. Almost certainly she will go on about her pay, status, title - stuff she is given - not the job itself or what she actually does in it. Women naturally aspire to be complete parasites who do practically nothing while being showered with riches, and look up to women like Princess Diana and Paris Hilton who have achieved that goal. There are solid evolutionary reasons for this.

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Post by publicduende » October 20th, 2012, 8:28 pm

Cornfed wrote:
designer wrote:'publicduende' I was wondering when you'd crawl out from under your rock with new Pro-female rhetoric. Anyhow, by the way I work in Development also. The females I have met in the areas in which I work are pretty low. They tend to have huge egos and produce mediocre crap at best. They lack imagination and only (like most women) program for money. It's just a job, many women seek higher education and certain positions not because they desire to help advance humanity. But simply to make money. For them academia, the humanities are all about making more money. The educate themselves to perform a task for the sake of money and only money. They seek money and are much more materialistic than men. Everything is about money and how they can 'rise above' others with their material possessions.
That is another thing. Women really don't give a damn about most of the work they claim to be doing. All they are capable of focusing on is themselves and, to a much lesser extent, their children. Slight exceptions might occur in jobs that are generalizations of their female role such as nursing. Of course everyone is ultimately in it for the money, but most men in non-menial jobs are at least interested in certain aspects of the job to some extent. Try asking a woman about her job. Almost certainly she will go on about her pay, status, title - stuff she is given - not the job itself or what she actually does in it. Women naturally aspire to be complete parasites who do practically nothing while being showered with riches, and look up to women like Princess Diana and Paris Hilton who have achieved that goal. There are solid evolutionary reasons for this.
What kind of messed up logic is this? :) If women are only interested in the salary and the perks of their jobs, how did they get there in the first place? You think a young woman would bother studying hard on a degree for a top university, spending another year or two on a Masters, perhaps abroad, then a few years in a large corporation or financial institution, climb a few rungs of the career ladder...and then sit down and stop doing any work and show off about her status and benefits?

Men can be, indeed are, much more materialistic than women. Perhaps their materialism is directed to different consumerism patterns and different objects, yet materialism still it is. Sure, there are women with a high sense of entitlement who are expected to be pampered and treated like Paris Hilton without doing much, just like there are women who expect to fall into a welfare brackets and be contented with the monthly handouts. Many, if not most, women who work surely have to compete in the same environment as men, especially if they do jobs that men usually do, like software development as in the OP. As I said, you probably know very little about the IT industry if you think women are granted discounts only because they are women. Then of course if they do deserve to be rewarded with a decent salary and they feel like chilling out, they will well entertain themselves on a chat about the latest bout of shopping, or that pair of Christian Loboutin they will be buying with their Xmas paycheck. So you've never heard young men talking about their fancy holidays or new iSomethings?

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