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Can women actually write software?

Discussions computers, internet and mobile technology (cell phones, smart phones, iPads).

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Cornfed
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Post by Cornfed » October 20th, 2012, 9:30 pm

publicduende wrote: If women are only interested in the salary and the perks of their jobs, how did they get there in the first place?
They get there because they are handed stuff for having a vagina, just like other affirmative action tards are handed stuff not in spite of, but because of, their relative worthlessness. This process is enabled by maggoty sickly white liberals and manginas bending over backwards to accommodate and excuse them. University courses have also been dumbed down and rigged to facilitate this process.
You think a young woman would bother studying hard on a degree for a top university, spending another year or two on a Masters, perhaps abroad, then a few years in a large corporation or financial institution, climb a few rungs of the career ladder...and then sit down and stop doing any work and show off about her status and benefits?
Yes, much like they will have sex with manginas they detest in order to con them into marriage and then do just enough to stay married for long enough to ass rape them in the divorce court.




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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » October 20th, 2012, 10:54 pm

Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote: If women are only interested in the salary and the perks of their jobs, how did they get there in the first place?
They get there because they are handed stuff for having a v****a, just like other affirmative action tards are handed stuff not in spite of, but because of, their relative worthlessness. This process is enabled by maggoty sickly white liberals and manginas bending over backwards to accommodate and excuse them. University courses have also been dumbed down and rigged to facilitate this process.
You think a young woman would bother studying hard on a degree for a top university, spending another year or two on a Masters, perhaps abroad, then a few years in a large corporation or financial institution, climb a few rungs of the career ladder...and then sit down and stop doing any work and show off about her status and benefits?
Yes, much like they will have sex with manginas they detest in order to con them into marriage and then do just enough to stay married for long enough to ass rape them in the divorce court.
Oh gosh, always the same, tired arguments once again!! :cry: You know, the reason why I have almost given up on this forum is not because we can't have a decent debate once in a while. It's because of this obscure "force of dialectic gravity" that, regardless how high or far we start from, always precipitates the conversation to the same, narrow and completely predictable set of conclusions. It's these kinds of funnel conversations that make me feel like talking to a mental patient. Only, I am not a psychiatrist or social worker and have no obligation to heal you from your social pains. You feel free to believe whatever it makes sense for you to believe. You have probably never worked in software development (or maybe you have...Peter?) and yet you afford final judgments on what women in that particular professional niche can or can't do. Well, here's some news: there's a bunch of people outside your bedroom or basement, and they will get on with their daily routines, their jobs, perhaps in software, perhaps interacting with women who do their jobs just like men do, and who get paid and sometimes happy, sometimes frustrated, and get fired just like men do.

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Cornfed
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Post by Cornfed » October 21st, 2012, 12:14 am

I don't know why people who think women can write software don't simply provide a few examples. PAN's BI software is apparently and example of original software created by a man with some input from other men. It would be easy to find many other examples. Why not simply state ten or twenty examples of equivalent software created by women? If women really are so great it should be easy.

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » October 21st, 2012, 12:52 am

Cornfed wrote:I don't know why people who think women can write software don't simply provide a few examples. PAN's BI software is apparently and example of original software created by a man with some input from other men. It would be easy to find many other examples. Why not simply state ten or twenty examples of equivalent software created by women? If women really are so great it should be easy.
If by "original" software you mean something that is either truly innovative (an industry first) or builds a clear advantage over the competition for at least 2 or 3 years, and most importantly is highly marketable, then that kind of software is a rare endeavour, regardless of whether it was the product of man, woman or alien. True, I can't come up with names of women made famous by their software products, but that's simply because women are under-represented. One example that pops to mind is that of Lynda Weinman, one of the most influential entrepreneurs in the online training industry. http://scene360.com/articles/1074/an-in ... onference/ As I said before, if you leave the commercial software industry alone for a minute and peek into the academia, you will see women heavily interested in R&D-heavy computer science projects being a very healthy percentage of the total, perhaps as high as 50%. This woman was one of the lecturers at the Masters I did in 2001. She used to be in London back then, and is now at Cambridge University. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~cm542/ She's the quintessential geeky type, involved in anything from formal methods to writing stuff in obscure functional languages, to R&D in mobile systems.

One should perhaps wonder why so much talent often stays confined within academia, or the occasional bout of consultancy work, and won't result in the usual spin-offs and commercial endeavours men are used to. I wouldn't be surprised if this were because of the age-old testosterone factor: women are "naturally" less ambitious, they can be pleased with highly intellectual work and won't necessarily think at the potential for commercial/financial gain from their IP or work. To top this up, the fact that men sometimes prey on their female fellows' work and get most if not all the credit has been a sad reality since time immemorial. Francis Crick and James Watson happily took away Rosalind Franklin's contribution on X-ray crystallography which led them to discover the DNA molecule and win a Nobel. It is now widely recognised that most of Einstein's maths on his relativity theory was the work of Mileva Marić, one of his students who went on to be his wife. I could go on with dozen other notable examples.

This is an interesting article I found: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/progra ... mmers/2386 Interesting enough, it points out a trend I have myself noticed both in the commercial and academic software industry. Lots of women from Middle Eastern countries are interested in computer science and software: Iranians (Persians), Turkish, Israeli, etc.

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Post by designer » October 21st, 2012, 3:50 am

What kind of messed up logic is this? Smile If women are only interested in the salary and the perks of their jobs, how did they get there in the first place? You think a young woman would bother studying hard on a degree for a top university, spending another year or two on a Masters, perhaps abroad, then a few years in a large corporation or financial institution, climb a few rungs of the career ladder...and then sit down and stop doing any work and show off about her status and benefits?

Men can be, indeed are, much more materialistic than women. Perhaps their materialism is directed to different consumerism patterns and different objects, yet materialism still it is. Sure, there are women with a high sense of entitlement who are expected to be pampered and treated like Paris Hilton without doing much, just like there are women who expect to fall into a welfare brackets and be contented with the monthly handouts. Many, if not most, women who work surely have to compete in the same environment as men, especially if they do jobs that men usually do, like software development as in the OP. As I said, you probably know very little about the IT industry if you think women are granted discounts only because they are women. Then of course if they do deserve to be rewarded with a decent salary and they feel like chilling out, they will well entertain themselves on a chat about the latest bout of shopping, or that pair of Christian Loboutin they will be buying with their Xmas paycheck. So you've never heard young men talking about their fancy holidays or new iSomethings?


More of your usual Bullshite I see :D

The only "messed up logic" is your inability to see a pattern of behavior that is consistent among women collectively. To answer some of your questions. YES many women supposedly apply themselves (Or rather are put in) to "top universities". However many women will tell you that their main desire is to make money. The point of their journey through higher education is dedicated to obtaining money. Education represents nothing greater to them other than status and money. They follow the rules and do what they are told. Few women step outside of that paradigm. As for your bullshite comment about men being more materialistic. That is utter nonsense. As someone who has worked in marketing in new York and London I can tell you that 95% of consumer products are geared towards women. Women are clearly the top consumers in a range of different areas. They are also the most important demographic in the areas of political and social media. Women will buy anything and they (as a result of the disenfranchisement of men) are now an emerging market. As for my incorrect logic related to associating civil unrest with women. Let me make it clear to you that in no way, shape or form shall you have blatant economic, political and social inequality for young men in this country without a violent response. There is no way that all of the universities and their graduates will consist primarily of women and few to no men. There is no way that most men will be homeless while women drive about in BMW's and live in mansions. They are the enemy and are being written into history as so as this system of gross degradation, depreciation and social exclusion of men continues. Unlike you I can connect the dots and I see how each situation is interrelated to the next. they are not isolate. Every institution reinforces the next. There are reasons for why women are being pushed right now. It has absolutely nothing to do 'equality', it has to do with disabling a specific type of process that resides mainly within men. To assess and to analyze situations and to logically react to them. Like this phoney election. Its all about 'the women', why? because Lord Obama knows that he can rally women at his beck and call whenever he feels like it. They are his stormtroopers and they will do whatever he says. They are mindless and will do anything to protect their privilege. Women function as robots, extensions of this system. They are obedient and they follow the rules. They rarely ever get out of line and if they do it is only in their own interest. Women could careless about the issues that concern men. If you are so blind to the blatant levels of male suicide, almost genocidal rates of black male incarceration, the absolutely raving almost 3rd world levels of child poverty in the usa, male cviolent crime victims, male homeless rate, lack of male representation in universities, the lack of male graduates in universities and highschools. Then you are out of your f***ing mind. You sit and watch Romeny and Obama stand around for 2 hours and talk about 'The Women' and who some lesbians can marry and not one ofthose low lifes addressed some of these serious issues facing Men and Children. Then all I can say is f**k You M8. And yes there will be civil unrest and perhaps civil war because any system that is this unjust needs to be dismantled. Many Men will not stand by and allow themselves to be enslaved. Not by mangina scumbags like yourself, nor these nazi inspired feminists. The usa is a consumer society. A consumer society revolves around women because women are the greatest consumers. The corporate, medical and universities go to whoever has the money. In the usa, women have the money and the influence. This is matriarchal society in which men suffer badly. There WILL be War over this is it does not cease. However it shall not end because those who have much to benefit from a system like this shall protect it. America sucks because of people like you. Losers who are so blind to the reality of what is going on. All you know is how to react and to protect this crap. You are so programmed it isn't even funny. Liberal Arts bullshite. And back to women programmers. No, they suck. Just because you know of One 'good' programmer, that means absolutely nothing. Women program for profit. Why was Steve jobs a man? Would a woman have dedicated her time to sitting in a garage with others to develop a new process or system? Without a clear vision of how that newly developed device/process could benefit her financially. The risk would be too high for a woman. Women seek money. if there is no clear pot of gold at the end of the rainbow they wont even begin to hike towards it. A Man will because his dedication may be firmly set in something other than financial. Some men genuinely want to make the world a better place. Why is it that the rates of female college enrollment have increased to surpass men, yet collectively academic standards have fallen dramatically?


http://voices.yahoo.com/american-studen ... 38511.html


Screw you man and your bullshite Mangina comments. You wanna go head to head with me m8? Let's rumble muther. Its about time someone set you straight. I was at Oberlin college dude. Ivy league and some other world known universities too. And Yeah, I do work in development and some other areas. If i told you with who it would make you eat your ignorant words. In fact you may have seen some of my work before. Let's just say I am associated with Steve in a way. And YES women are given perks for being women in the form of enforced quotas. Many did not earn their place in any given setting. They were PUT in. Yet (skilled) black males are systematically excluded in industry despite that group being the absolutely most disenfranchised and one of the most impoverished in the entire usa. You want to talk liberal bullshite okay, I will hit you up with some real material about inequality. And it doesnt revolve around any women.

I know your game son. You do not have the intellectual edge over me, nor will you play games with me. I know all of the tricks of the trade and f*ck you up with pure Fact. Get the hell out of here with your bullshite mainstream extremist liberal nonesense.

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Post by designer » October 21st, 2012, 4:08 am



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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » October 21st, 2012, 12:57 pm

designer wrote:More of your usual Bullshite I see :D

The only "messed up logic" is your inability to see a pattern of behavior that is consistent among women collectively. To answer some of your questions. YES many women supposedly apply themselves (Or rather are put in) to "top universities". However many women will tell you that their main desire is to make money. The point of their journey through higher education is dedicated to obtaining money. Education represents nothing greater to them other than status and money. They follow the rules and do what they are told. Few women step outside of that paradigm. As for your bullshite comment about men being more materialistic. That is utter nonsense. As someone who has worked in marketing in new York and London I can tell you that 95% of consumer products are geared towards women. Women are clearly the top consumers in a range of different areas. They are also the most important demographic in the areas of political and social media. Women will buy anything and they (as a result of the disenfranchisement of men) are now an emerging market. As for my incorrect logic related to associating civil unrest with women. Let me make it clear to you that in no way, shape or form shall you have blatant economic, political and social inequality for young men in this country without a violent response. There is no way that all of the universities and their graduates will consist primarily of women and few to no men. There is no way that most men will be homeless while women drive about in BMW's and live in mansions. They are the enemy and are being written into history as so as this system of gross degradation, depreciation and social exclusion of men continues. Unlike you I can connect the dots and I see how each situation is interrelated to the next. they are not isolate. Every institution reinforces the next. There are reasons for why women are being pushed right now. It has absolutely nothing to do 'equality', it has to do with disabling a specific type of process that resides mainly within men. To assess and to analyze situations and to logically react to them. Like this phoney election. Its all about 'the women', why? because Lord Obama knows that he can rally women at his beck and call whenever he feels like it. They are his stormtroopers and they will do whatever he says. They are mindless and will do anything to protect their privilege. Women function as robots, extensions of this system. They are obedient and they follow the rules. They rarely ever get out of line and if they do it is only in their own interest. Women could careless about the issues that concern men. If you are so blind to the blatant levels of male suicide, almost genocidal rates of black male incarceration, the absolutely raving almost 3rd world levels of child poverty in the usa, male cviolent crime victims, male homeless rate, lack of male representation in universities, the lack of male graduates in universities and highschools. Then you are out of your f***ing mind. You sit and watch Romeny and Obama stand around for 2 hours and talk about 'The Women' and who some lesbians can marry and not one ofthose low lifes addressed some of these serious issues facing Men and Children. Then all I can say is f**k You M8. And yes there will be civil unrest and perhaps civil war because any system that is this unjust needs to be dismantled. Many Men will not stand by and allow themselves to be enslaved. Not by mangina scumbags like yourself, nor these nazi inspired feminists. The usa is a consumer society. A consumer society revolves around women because women are the greatest consumers. The corporate, medical and universities go to whoever has the money. In the usa, women have the money and the influence. This is matriarchal society in which men suffer badly. There WILL be War over this is it does not cease. However it shall not end because those who have much to benefit from a system like this shall protect it. America sucks because of people like you. Losers who are so blind to the reality of what is going on. All you know is how to react and to protect this crap. You are so programmed it isn't even funny. Liberal Arts bullshite. And back to women programmers. No, they suck. Just because you know of One 'good' programmer, that means absolutely nothing. Women program for profit. Why was Steve jobs a man? Would a woman have dedicated her time to sitting in a garage with others to develop a new process or system? Without a clear vision of how that newly developed device/process could benefit her financially. The risk would be too high for a woman. Women seek money. if there is no clear pot of gold at the end of the rainbow they wont even begin to hike towards it. A Man will because his dedication may be firmly set in something other than financial. Some men genuinely want to make the world a better place. Why is it that the rates of female college enrollment have increased to surpass men, yet collectively academic standards have fallen dramatically?


http://voices.yahoo.com/american-studen ... 38511.html


Screw you man and your bullshite Mangina comments. You wanna go head to head with me m8? Let's rumble muther. Its about time someone set you straight. I was at Oberlin college dude. Ivy league and some other world known universities too. And Yeah, I do work in development and some other areas. If i told you with who it would make you eat your ignorant words. In fact you may have seen some of my work before. Let's just say I am associated with Steve in a way. And YES women are given perks for being women in the form of enforced quotas. Many did not earn their place in any given setting. They were PUT in. Yet (skilled) black males are systematically excluded in industry despite that group being the absolutely most disenfranchised and one of the most impoverished in the entire usa. You want to talk liberal bullshite okay, I will hit you up with some real material about inequality. And it doesnt revolve around any women.

I know your game son. You do not have the intellectual edge over me, nor will you play games with me. I know all of the tricks of the trade and f*ck you up with pure Fact. Get the hell out of here with your bullshite mainstream extremist liberal nonesense.
You know mate, it's OK to be someone else in an anonymous place in cyberspace, hide behind a self-righteous forum persona to vent all of your frustrations against the world, society, and why not, women. At least you should try and be consistent with it. In some of your old posts, which I cannot be bothered to dig out, I clearly remember you moaning about being an unemployed designer without a degree, bitter about the state of working class women somewhere in northern England.

Now a big reset, and you're an Ivy league graduate who has worked in London and NYC and has been associated to Steve (Jobs, I suppose). And claiming to have an edge on me, who have been working in IT and commercial software development for more than 15 years and have directly worked with more women, some smart some dumb, than you probably met in your entire life. I honestly thought you were one of the better poster in terms of a balanced, polite discussion, but apparently you forgot your medication today, and you sound like any All That Is Man, or Peter Nolan, salivating on sexist stereotypes and baseless statements about society and the academic world, and laying random insults.

I frankly don't give a damn about the Obama vs Romney political cock fight, as I know as well as you do that it's just a dog & pony show put up to keep the polarised (or polarisable) electorate happy with the idea that the democratic two-party system is alive and kicking. USA as a society is in terminal decline, much like Japan, only without the traditional social cohesion that is still strong with the Japanese people. The levels of materialism and dehumanised consumerism are shocking even to a "liberal" (as you label me) like me. That's stuff I remember writing in detail, as a reply to one of your posts nonetheless. If you are trying to argue things like these with me, you're smashing an open door.

What I simply can't accept in your train of thought is that you seem to put women on top of the evil pyramid and deem them the prime movers of all the shite that's going on in the world. When in fact, as I said before, they are equally victims, equally manipulated by the status quo. Their status as power consumers is leveraged and directed towards the same mechanism of desires and consumption, just like men. I wouldn't say 95% of the consumer goods are meant for women, I would say women make for a better, more manipulable consumer demographic because of their natural desire to look good, compete with their peers on aesthetic statements and follow fashion and glamour like sheeple. The marketing and advertising industry have simply re-engineered their messages to target women because they are more vulnerable. Yes, agreed. Yet, more and more status symbols are now unisex, even those traditionally associated with men like cars and electronic gadgets, as you mention. So if a man shows off his new luxury golf set, or his flashy sports car, that's OK because "boys will be boys". If a woman does the same, all she passes for is a materialistic bitch. What kind of logic is this?

Equally, I can't accept your statement about women being in university only for money, while men are only motivated by higher intellectual purposes. Suffice to say your following post contains an article that exposes American universities as steeped in military-grade camaraderie and all about cheap excitement and group intoxication. Maybe sororities also have those rituals and entitled skanks from families of ancient wealth. Yet it is a fact that, despite all the general dumbing down of the education systems worldwide, it's women who score better than men. And with more and more young women who enter academia to stay and flourish in it, wouldn't that be a case where it's women who are less interested in commercial exploitation of their research output, compared to men?

Granted, some women are in for profit, probably on a lesser extent than men, yet they still are in for it. And so what's the problem?

And why all this fuss about Steve Jobs anyway. Now acclaimed as a messiah of consumer electronics, Steve Jobs was only able to steal a few ideas here and there and use his talented team of designers and a horde of obedient Chinese product engineers to give Apple an unprecedented brand status. He didn't invent anything. He didn't envision anything. All he actually did is apply his unortodox, bullying and capricious management style to refine his product ideas to perfection. A few days after the death of Jesus Jobs, Dennis Ritchie, inventor of C, was also found dead. Not a decent mention on the mainstream press, for somebody who truly shaped the software industry forever. Oh but to you that's yet another one of those evil woman conspiracies, isn't it?

You are deluded, man. Just like Cornfed above, you guys seem to be locked in some sort of romantic idea of men being the sole torch bearers of civilisation, whether from a moral, intellectual or social standpoint. Funny how you reverse that famous "behind a great man there's always a great woman" saying into "if he's a bad man, it must be because of the bad women behind him". There are plenty of bad men and plenty of bad women, and a plethora of reasons why they turned out like that. If though you can't see the beauty in people, boys and girls alike, because of the shield of hatred and mistrust that you built for yourselves, it's entirely your loss. Mankind will continue unabated in their path of development, or self-destruction, totally oblivious of a few of us little men behind a keyboard.

And another thing about your desire for violent change: easy to say that from the comfort of an anonymous account and a PC screen. When those radical moments come, your paranoias and fabricated world won't save you from reality. Or maybe yes, somebody might save you. Mind you, it could be a woman.

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Post by momopi » October 21st, 2012, 7:00 pm

Cornfed wrote:
momopi wrote:
Cornfed wrote: OK so that's an example of incompetent females playing you for chumps, and the fact that this could go on for years suggests what might be happening in the wider industry. Do you have any examples of women who actually know what they are doing?
Absolutely. I'm not a programmer so I cannot comment on quality of the code, other than observing code review, smoke testing, and QA/STG test results. But as Change Control/Project Coordinator, I can say that from personal experience, women application developers tend to babysit their project or change through production, versus male application developers tend to check their code in and wander off with poor follow-through. To cite one example, say if a project is on hold pending some changes by the business intelligence team. The women app dev will be sociable and go over to the BI group and chat with them, and get them to open a ticket for the change and assign it to themselves. I don't have to do anything and the project moves along. With male app dev's, some would just sit and scratch their arse, I have to look over their shoulders and do the follow-through for them. Women developers are also more likely to take the initiative and contact customers/stakeholders to get clarifications.
You're employed to manage software engineers without being able to read code? Has the world gone mad?

Of course women go around socializing. It is what they do in life and allows them to seem like they are contributing when they are doing little or nothing and get men to do their work for them. Do you know of any examples of where original systems or algorithms or anything requiring creative human thought was developed by women without substantial input from men? A certain amount of coding is monkey work that could be learned to be done by anyone, so perhaps women can do that. My theory is that they have zero capacity to do anything genuinely creative. Is there any substantial body of work that disproves this theory? I have to assume there isn't because wherever I've asked this question people who should be able to simply rattle off examples if such existed are strangely evasive.

1. Change Control and PMO do not manage software engineers, or do code review. In what organization have you observed Change Control or Project Coordinator managing software engineers or read code? Software developers are managed by their own manager, and peer code review & smoke testing is done by other developers.

2. The role of Change Control Manager is to approve changes on behalf of stakeholders and enforce policies set by senior IT leadership. Change Control is not senior IT leadership and does not manage any teams other than itself. The role of a PM is to make sure that projects are completed on-time, within budget, and delivered what was expected. However, the PM is usually not empowered to make demands upon the teams/resources, so it's more about people skills and influencing people's actions. If you have any questions, please refer to PMBOK v4 (soon to be v5).

3. Software engineers and developers are given specific tasks to accomplish. It's not their role to be creative about what the stakeholders want in the scope of the project. Whenever developers start thinking "it'd be really neat if we added this", you have scope creep and added risks/delays. It's more important to complete the project on-time and deliver exactly what is expected, so you can reap benefits (positive revenue impact) and make the stakeholders happy. If the developer feels strongly about adding a certain feature, they can propose it in future updates.

4. A project requires multiple teams to complete. On IT side you have WebDev, Engineering, CMS, Build Engineer, DBA, Business Intelligence, QA, etc. The application developer does not creatively define a project or its features. The project's objectives are written by the business side to improve revenue. If you're looking for examples of creativity and originality, I'd point you to early game designers such as Roberta Williams, Jane Jensen, Dona Bailey, Carol Shaw, etc. Dona Bailey was the only female game designer good enough to be hired by Atari's early game division, in a time when there were no books, tutorials, or classes on game design. You'll find her name in the credits of "Centipede" from 1981.

Image

I have a friend who worked for blizzard & riot games and she is a great game designer. But I cannot say that she is "original" today because games of that size require many teams, of which she is only one small part of the whole. Unlike 1980, it's much easier to learn game design today.

5. Your specific question to me was "Do you have any examples of women who actually know what they are doing?" In my experience (and by my expectations), the answer is yes. Women programmers tend to finish their projects with good follow-through. I've observed female developers proactively contact QA to make sure everything is OK through PLV (post launch verification). Male programmers tend to develop memory loss after they check their code in and have to be reminded. Where men out-shine women is in OT, men are more willing to stay until 1AM to fix bugs if you offer to feed them a good dinner delivered to the office. Women are less willing because they have kids at home and cannot stay late.

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Post by Cornfed » October 23rd, 2012, 12:04 am

publicduende wrote:What I simply can't accept in your train of thought is that you seem to put women on top of the evil pyramid and deem them the prime movers of all the shite that's going on in the world.
Of course they are not at the top of a pyramid. They are dupes and pawns as always. Feminism is a form of polygamy. In polygamous societies you have a few men at the top giving orders and creaming it, their loathsome female flunkeys in the middle and the majority of men on the bottom being shat on by everyone. The last 40 years of history has been about replacing a somewhat monogamous egalitarian society with a polygamous one.
Yet it is a fact that, despite all the general dumbing down of the education systems worldwide, it's women who score better than men. And with more and more young women who enter academia to stay and flourish in it
It is because of the dumbing down and rigging of the education system that females now score better. Their inclusion in higher education necessitates it being dumbed down. Women stay in academia because it is a good place for them to hide out and get paid without having to do real work or accomplish anything.

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Post by Cornfed » October 23rd, 2012, 12:13 am

momopi wrote:1. Change Control and PMO do not manage software engineers, or do code review. In what organization have you observed Change Control or Project Coordinator managing software engineers or read code? Software developers are managed by their own manager, and peer code review & smoke testing is done by other developers.

2. The role of Change Control Manager is to approve changes on behalf of stakeholders and enforce policies set by senior IT leadership. Change Control is not senior IT leadership and does not manage any teams other than itself. The role of a PM is to make sure that projects are completed on-time, within budget, and delivered what was expected. However, the PM is usually not empowered to make demands upon the teams/resources, so it's more about people skills and influencing people's actions. If you have any questions, please refer to PMBOK v4 (soon to be v5).

3. Software engineers and developers are given specific tasks to accomplish. It's not their role to be creative about what the stakeholders want in the scope of the project.
Sounds like a dysfunctional way of doing business. It is apparent that most corporate office jobs are self-administration scams producing nothing of tangible benefit to society and this is perhaps an example. It is not surprising that women could flourish in such an environment.
3. Your specific question to me (please scroll up and see your own reply in thread) was "Do you have any examples of women who actually know what they are doing?" and not "Do you have any examples of women who are creative and original". In my line of work I evaluate people based on their ability to accomplish their tasks well and follow-through their projects to post-launch.
Obviously some women in the workforce know how to do their jobs. Secretaries generally know how to type, tea ladies generally know how to make tea, junior corporate managers generally know how to turn up wearing tight clothing and give out blow jobs etc. If you are going to characterize some of these women as "developers" then by that definition some female developers know what they are doing, but that doesn't really answer the intent of the question

momopi
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Post by momopi » October 24th, 2012, 7:22 am

Cornfed wrote: Sounds like a dysfunctional way of doing business. It is apparent that most corporate office jobs are self-administration scams producing nothing of tangible benefit to society and this is perhaps an example. It is not surprising that women could flourish in such an environment.
It's a perfectly normal and logical way of doing business. Initiate -> plan -> execute -> monitor/control -> close.

Initiate = "I want to bake some cookies"
Planning = "What's my shopping list?"
Execute = "Bake the cookies at 375 F"
Monitor/Control = "Are the cookies brown? How long as it been in the oven?"
Close = "Put cookie in basket"

Look, if you were baking cookies by yourself, you can do your own project management and code review. I worked on medium sized projects with revenue impact of $1 million to $4 million/month. these projects require dozens of people across multiple groups to complete. The individual developer is given a specific tasks from decomposition of project deliverable into smaller components. How the developer might write his/her code and to what clean code standards set by their department, is not under my area of management. My job is to make sure the project stays on-track and on-time, because there's a penalty of ~$100,000/day (paid to the customer) if we fall behind schedule.

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » October 24th, 2012, 8:58 am

momopi wrote:
Cornfed wrote: Sounds like a dysfunctional way of doing business. It is apparent that most corporate office jobs are self-administration scams producing nothing of tangible benefit to society and this is perhaps an example. It is not surprising that women could flourish in such an environment.
It's a perfectly normal and logical way of doing business. Initiate -> plan -> execute -> monitor/control -> close.

Initiate = "I want to bake some cookies"
Planning = "What's my shopping list?"
Execute = "Bake the cookies at 375 F"
Monitor/Control = "Are the cookies brown? How long as it been in the oven?"
Close = "Put cookie in basket"

Look, if you were baking cookies by yourself, you can do your own project management and code review. I worked on medium sized projects with revenue impact of $1 million to $4 million/month. these projects require dozens of people across multiple groups to complete. The individual developer is given a specific tasks from decomposition of project deliverable into smaller components. How the developer might write his/her code and to what clean code standards set by their department, is not under my area of management. My job is to make sure the project stays on-track and on-time, because there's a penalty of ~$100,000/day (paid to the customer) if we fall behind schedule.
Momopi, your definition of PMO and CM is perfectly logical and matches my experience, as it would that of anyone who has been working in software for a few years. I see little point with wasting breath on debating with someone who is only armed with a bunch of sexist stereotypes and never worked an IT job before, at least not a serious one.

momopi
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Post by momopi » October 24th, 2012, 4:07 pm

I'd suggest everyone to read "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni. If you don't like to read text, there's a comic book version by Kensuke Okabayashi:



http://kensukeokabayashi.blogspot.com/

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Post by designer » October 24th, 2012, 5:40 pm

publicduende wrote:
designer wrote:More of your usual Bullshite I see :D

The only "messed up logic" is your inability to see a pattern of behavior that is consistent among women collectively. To answer some of your questions. YES many women supposedly apply themselves (Or rather are put in) to "top universities". However many women will tell you that their main desire is to make money. The point of their journey through higher education is dedicated to obtaining money. Education represents nothing greater to them other than status and money. They follow the rules and do what they are told. Few women step outside of that paradigm. As for your bullshite comment about men being more materialistic. That is utter nonsense. As someone who has worked in marketing in new York and London I can tell you that 95% of consumer products are geared towards women. Women are clearly the top consumers in a range of different areas. They are also the most important demographic in the areas of political and social media. Women will buy anything and they (as a result of the disenfranchisement of men) are now an emerging market. As for my incorrect logic related to associating civil unrest with women. Let me make it clear to you that in no way, shape or form shall you have blatant economic, political and social inequality for young men in this country without a violent response. There is no way that all of the universities and their graduates will consist primarily of women and few to no men. There is no way that most men will be homeless while women drive about in BMW's and live in mansions. They are the enemy and are being written into history as so as this system of gross degradation, depreciation and social exclusion of men continues. Unlike you I can connect the dots and I see how each situation is interrelated to the next. they are not isolate. Every institution reinforces the next. There are reasons for why women are being pushed right now. It has absolutely nothing to do 'equality', it has to do with disabling a specific type of process that resides mainly within men. To assess and to analyze situations and to logically react to them. Like this phoney election. Its all about 'the women', why? because Lord Obama knows that he can rally women at his beck and call whenever he feels like it. They are his stormtroopers and they will do whatever he says. They are mindless and will do anything to protect their privilege. Women function as robots, extensions of this system. They are obedient and they follow the rules. They rarely ever get out of line and if they do it is only in their own interest. Women could careless about the issues that concern men. If you are so blind to the blatant levels of male suicide, almost genocidal rates of black male incarceration, the absolutely raving almost 3rd world levels of child poverty in the usa, male cviolent crime victims, male homeless rate, lack of male representation in universities, the lack of male graduates in universities and highschools. Then you are out of your f***ing mind. You sit and watch Romeny and Obama stand around for 2 hours and talk about 'The Women' and who some lesbians can marry and not one ofthose low lifes addressed some of these serious issues facing Men and Children. Then all I can say is f**k You M8. And yes there will be civil unrest and perhaps civil war because any system that is this unjust needs to be dismantled. Many Men will not stand by and allow themselves to be enslaved. Not by mangina scumbags like yourself, nor these nazi inspired feminists. The usa is a consumer society. A consumer society revolves around women because women are the greatest consumers. The corporate, medical and universities go to whoever has the money. In the usa, women have the money and the influence. This is matriarchal society in which men suffer badly. There WILL be War over this is it does not cease. However it shall not end because those who have much to benefit from a system like this shall protect it. America sucks because of people like you. Losers who are so blind to the reality of what is going on. All you know is how to react and to protect this crap. You are so programmed it isn't even funny. Liberal Arts bullshite. And back to women programmers. No, they suck. Just because you know of One 'good' programmer, that means absolutely nothing. Women program for profit. Why was Steve jobs a man? Would a woman have dedicated her time to sitting in a garage with others to develop a new process or system? Without a clear vision of how that newly developed device/process could benefit her financially. The risk would be too high for a woman. Women seek money. if there is no clear pot of gold at the end of the rainbow they wont even begin to hike towards it. A Man will because his dedication may be firmly set in something other than financial. Some men genuinely want to make the world a better place. Why is it that the rates of female college enrollment have increased to surpass men, yet collectively academic standards have fallen dramatically?


http://voices.yahoo.com/american-studen ... 38511.html


Screw you man and your bullshite Mangina comments. You wanna go head to head with me m8? Let's rumble muther. Its about time someone set you straight. I was at Oberlin college dude. Ivy league and some other world known universities too. And Yeah, I do work in development and some other areas. If i told you with who it would make you eat your ignorant words. In fact you may have seen some of my work before. Let's just say I am associated with Steve in a way. And YES women are given perks for being women in the form of enforced quotas. Many did not earn their place in any given setting. They were PUT in. Yet (skilled) black males are systematically excluded in industry despite that group being the absolutely most disenfranchised and one of the most impoverished in the entire usa. You want to talk liberal bullshite okay, I will hit you up with some real material about inequality. And it doesnt revolve around any women.

I know your game son. You do not have the intellectual edge over me, nor will you play games with me. I know all of the tricks of the trade and f*ck you up with pure Fact. Get the hell out of here with your bullshite mainstream extremist liberal nonesense.
You know mate, it's OK to be someone else in an anonymous place in cyberspace, hide behind a self-righteous forum persona to vent all of your frustrations against the world, society, and why not, women. At least you should try and be consistent with it. In some of your old posts, which I cannot be bothered to dig out, I clearly remember you moaning about being an unemployed designer without a degree, bitter about the state of working class women somewhere in northern England.

Now a big reset, and you're an Ivy league graduate who has worked in London and NYC and has been associated to Steve (Jobs, I suppose). And claiming to have an edge on me, who have been working in IT and commercial software development for more than 15 years and have directly worked with more women, some smart some dumb, than you probably met in your entire life. I honestly thought you were one of the better poster in terms of a balanced, polite discussion, but apparently you forgot your medication today, and you sound like any All That Is Man, or Peter Nolan, salivating on sexist stereotypes and baseless statements about society and the academic world, and laying random insults.

I frankly don't give a damn about the Obama vs Romney political cock fight, as I know as well as you do that it's just a dog & pony show put up to keep the polarised (or polarisable) electorate happy with the idea that the democratic two-party system is alive and kicking. USA as a society is in terminal decline, much like Japan, only without the traditional social cohesion that is still strong with the Japanese people. The levels of materialism and dehumanised consumerism are shocking even to a "liberal" (as you label me) like me. That's stuff I remember writing in detail, as a reply to one of your posts nonetheless. If you are trying to argue things like these with me, you're smashing an open door.

What I simply can't accept in your train of thought is that you seem to put women on top of the evil pyramid and deem them the prime movers of all the shite that's going on in the world. When in fact, as I said before, they are equally victims, equally manipulated by the status quo. Their status as power consumers is leveraged and directed towards the same mechanism of desires and consumption, just like men. I wouldn't say 95% of the consumer goods are meant for women, I would say women make for a better, more manipulable consumer demographic because of their natural desire to look good, compete with their peers on aesthetic statements and follow fashion and glamour like sheeple. The marketing and advertising industry have simply re-engineered their messages to target women because they are more vulnerable. Yes, agreed. Yet, more and more status symbols are now unisex, even those traditionally associated with men like cars and electronic gadgets, as you mention. So if a man shows off his new luxury golf set, or his flashy sports car, that's OK because "boys will be boys". If a woman does the same, all she passes for is a materialistic bitch. What kind of logic is this?

Equally, I can't accept your statement about women being in university only for money, while men are only motivated by higher intellectual purposes. Suffice to say your following post contains an article that exposes American universities as steeped in military-grade camaraderie and all about cheap excitement and group intoxication. Maybe sororities also have those rituals and entitled skanks from families of ancient wealth. Yet it is a fact that, despite all the general dumbing down of the education systems worldwide, it's women who score better than men. And with more and more young women who enter academia to stay and flourish in it, wouldn't that be a case where it's women who are less interested in commercial exploitation of their research output, compared to men?

Granted, some women are in for profit, probably on a lesser extent than men, yet they still are in for it. And so what's the problem?

And why all this fuss about Steve Jobs anyway. Now acclaimed as a messiah of consumer electronics, Steve Jobs was only able to steal a few ideas here and there and use his talented team of designers and a horde of obedient Chinese product engineers to give Apple an unprecedented brand status. He didn't invent anything. He didn't envision anything. All he actually did is apply his unortodox, bullying and capricious management style to refine his product ideas to perfection. A few days after the death of Jesus Jobs, Dennis Ritchie, inventor of C, was also found dead. Not a decent mention on the mainstream press, for somebody who truly shaped the software industry forever. Oh but to you that's yet another one of those evil woman conspiracies, isn't it?

You are deluded, man. Just like Cornfed above, you guys seem to be locked in some sort of romantic idea of men being the sole torch bearers of civilisation, whether from a moral, intellectual or social standpoint. Funny how you reverse that famous "behind a great man there's always a great woman" saying into "if he's a bad man, it must be because of the bad women behind him". There are plenty of bad men and plenty of bad women, and a plethora of reasons why they turned out like that. If though you can't see the beauty in people, boys and girls alike, because of the shield of hatred and mistrust that you built for yourselves, it's entirely your loss. Mankind will continue unabated in their path of development, or self-destruction, totally oblivious of a few of us little men behind a keyboard.

And another thing about your desire for violent change: easy to say that from the comfort of an anonymous account and a PC screen. When those radical moments come, your paranoias and fabricated world won't save you from reality. Or maybe yes, somebody might save you. Mind you, it could be a woman.

....YAWN

As always no Data, no analysis, no intelligent commentary. Just more of the same ol' Program. Your rap is so tired, so typical and so, so played. Okay Kid, spout your programming. This is really no challenge to me. Write to your hearts desire. Point and blame all you want.


This part really made me laugh!

Now a big reset, and you're an Ivy league graduate who has worked in London and NYC and has been associated to Steve (Jobs, I suppose). And claiming to have an edge on me, who have been working in IT and commercial software development for more than 15 years and have directly worked with more women, some smart some dumb, than you probably met in your entire life. I honestly thought you were one of the better poster in terms of a balanced, polite discussion, but apparently you forgot your medication today, and you sound like any All That Is Man, or Peter Nolan, salivating on sexist stereotypes and baseless statements about society and the academic world, and laying random insults.


What reset?? Hahahahahaha Son I could make you cry. I don't have to brag. What I said in my previous post was more than enough. You can believe it to be a "claim" if you wish. I do not have to prove anything. However, you have exposed yourself for what you are. Everyone knows that you quite typical in your 'opinions' and uninformed perspectives on any given subject. Attack me, cornfed and whoever else on this forum you like. Everyone knows your game. Like most puppets of the old Communist era, you spout out your programming left and right as an ideology. You are are well controlled. Congratulations! Yet you claim that I take medication! Hahahahaha! You ARE a Joke, worthy of coming from the Great Fozzie Himself!

Woka, Woka, Woka!


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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » October 24th, 2012, 5:52 pm

designer wrote:....YAWN

As always no Data, no analysis, no intelligent commentary. Just more of the same ol' Program. Your rap is so tired, so typical and so, so played. Okay Kid, spout your programming. This is really no challenge to me. Write to your hearts desire. Point and blame all you want.


You seem to make the very common mistake of singling yourself out by virtue of your non-mainstream ideas. You read and know about world conspiracies and you have a critical mind, therefore everybody else is looked down as a programmed puppet. If you read my old posts, including those addressed to you, you will see that I agree with your on several points. I simply get upset when guys like you start projecting this unlikely world where women and feminist Nazis are the source of all evils.

What kind of analysis do you expect? What statistics do you expect me to dig out, to prove your points if they're so outlandish. Do I have to count out the women I know and meet everyday who can program, or do their jobs as diligently and professionally as any other man? The world may well be going down the drain, but at the micro level you just very rarely see something so extreme as what you and Cornfed are describing.

Mate, when your bout of hysterical laughing ends, get out of your basement and meet a few (British, I assumed) girls. If all the women you can meet on the street are of the type that fill you up with disgust, change suburb, or change yourself. I believe it's you who are spouting final judgments out of poor analysis and finger pointing.

designer wrote:What reset?? Hahahahahaha Son I could make you cry. I don't have to brag. What I said in my previous post was more than enough. You can believe it to be a "claim" if you wish. I do not have to prove anything. However, you have exposed yourself for what you are. Everyone knows that you quite typical in your 'opinions' and uninformed perspectives on any given subject. Attack me, cornfed and whoever else on this forum you like. Everyone knows your game. Like most puppets of the old Communist era, you spout out your programming left and right as an ideology. You are are well controlled. Congratulations! Yet you claim that I take medication! Hahahahaha! You ARE a Joke, worthy of coming from the Great Fozzie Himself!


At least I am a joke. You're not even funny. You can be a different person every day to prove what you're trying to prove. Just, don't expect respect from me. Unlike what Peter Nolan thinks, respect is not earned because you've written a BI tool in Visual Basic 6. You earn it by writing stuff that makes sense and not stopping people who happen to have a different opinion from yours.
Last edited by publicduende on October 24th, 2012, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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