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Race and IQ correlation - Racial differences in intelligence

Discuss racial, ethnic and multicultural issues. Warning: The topics here are likely to be taboo, so if you are easily offended, you are better off not participating here.

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MrPeabody
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Post by MrPeabody » November 14th, 2010, 9:06 pm

IQ tests are good at predicting success at activities necessary to the maintenance of a complex, technically oriented society. For example, an IQ test may be good at predicting who will make a good tax attorney. The test may accurately select which worker bees go into which levels of the hierarchy. But, if the average tax attorney is laid off, is he intelligent enough to create his own business? The IQ tests don’t seem to measure this kind of intelligence. Is being a slave of the system really intelligent? And what about a person’s ability to communicate with the Great Spirit, or do a successful vision quest to find his purpose in life, or to be happy? None of this is measured. And as for the Jews, in the 1940s they would willingly line up to be shot, and most weren’t smart enough to get out of a dangerous situation, and had to be rescued by the West. An intelligent aborigine would have either run like hell or fought bravely to the death.

Repatriate
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Post by Repatriate » November 15th, 2010, 5:10 am

Rock wrote: I'd take 150 over 70 any day. I'd love to be a 'mad genius', lol. When I talk about intellectual giants, I don't just mean academic leaders and business gurus. For example, con artist Steven Russell is said to have an IQ of over 160. I doubt someone who tested within 1-2 SD of mean IQ could have pulled-off all the shit he did.
True but there are all sorts of variables which determine success in life and IQ is just one component. For instance if you had to live the rest of your life in the U.S. would you prefer to be a genius IQ black man from a poor family or the dumb white scion of a billionaire old money family? I suppose you could say the black genius could always become wildly success but yet I have seen and met people who were extremely intelligent but just didn't have the specific advantages or social variables on their side to turn it into something worthwhile.
BTW, China had poor nutrition, healthcare, and saw intense social drama for decades last century. But the average tested IQ in that country is higher than for any nation in Western Europe or North America. A large percentage of descendants to present day American Jews suffered things much worse over short and long term history. Yet Jewish Americans scores are off the charts - nearly 1 SD above the US mean.
People are durable and often times even after the most destructive periods (as in the case of China) all it takes is a couple generations before the people can recover. Plus in a country as large as this you will still have people who managed to insulate themselves from a lot of the destruction. It still took a lot of time the people underwent famines, intercine wars, broken families during the various communist purges, etc.. All these things happened over a 150 year period. China was totally stagnant until the opening of the economy and the increase in rural healthcare. There's a TED lecture that charts the hundreds of millions of people that were lifted out of poverty and enjoyed improved infant mortality rates in just the 70's. Then communist reforms in education boosted literacy and the rest is history. This is why there's such a lag between India and China to the present day. India had many problems organizing rural reform and still does. Even those IQ averages put India at a very low 81 and I believe there's much more social variables there negatively effecting their development. I don't believe that Indians on average are innately more stupid than Chinese people as the stats seem to suggest.

I'm not sure I would say that Jews had it worse. They were on the top of the academic and business food chain even prior to WW2. What happened to them is comparable to a black day type stock market crash. It's an exogenous shock they can recover from rather quickly because even though a lot of their people were murdered they still had a very educated and skilled elite class of people to build from.

It's much more difficult to take people who have lagged behind for over a century and then increase things like literacy rates, healthcare, etc.. so the children have the proper nutrition to develop. Then you have to try and cultivate a productive middle class from this peasant stock. China was really starting from scratch after the great leap forward and cultural revolution.

Rock
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Post by Rock » November 15th, 2010, 7:04 am

catameran wrote:IQ tests are good at predicting success at activities necessary to the maintenance of a complex, technically oriented society. For example, an IQ test may be good at predicting who will make a good tax attorney. The test may accurately select which worker bees go into which levels of the hierarchy. But, if the average tax attorney is laid off, is he intelligent enough to create his own business? The IQ tests don’t seem to measure this kind of intelligence. Is being a slave of the system really intelligent? And what about a person’s ability to communicate with the Great Spirit, or do a successful vision quest to find his purpose in life, or to be happy? None of this is measured. And as for the Jews, in the 1940s they would willingly line up to be shot, and most weren’t smart enough to get out of a dangerous situation, and had to be rescued by the West. An intelligent aborigine would have either run like hell or fought bravely to the death.
I think the bulk of prestigious 'worker bee' positions in our complex technically oriented society are for people of modest IQ levels - above average but usually within 1 or at most 2 SDs. These guys are bright but not gifted.

The truly exceptional ones, so-called geniuses, are the ones who can turn the system upside down. These types lead masses, create revolutions, start firms which lead to new industries, invent new technologies, or on the negative side, torture or kill 100s of thousands or even millions. I believe, though cannot prove, that most people who fall into such categories would be close to or above 2 SDs above the general tested IQ mean in the States. I'm not saying all geniuses can accomplish such things. But I firmly believe that the correlation between tested genius IQ and exceptional intellectual style achievement is strong.

And I agree with you that tested IQ within normal bounds is also somewhat predictive of a person's potential in 'the system'. It creates a sort of glass ceiling. A person with a tested IQ of 125, given full effort and motivation, will probably rise higher than equally proactive and motivated counterpart who tested only 100. But I doubt even the 125 guy will never become CEO of a Fortune 500 or run the R&D division of a high tech firm.

Generally, IQ tests don't directly test creativity, which is also a useful trait in its own right. But it does overlap with tested IQ to some extent. Those who score exceptionally well on creativity generally score above 120 on IQ tests. The person with creative gifts and an IQ of 120-130 might be better equipped to achieve 'great things' than his less creative peer who happened to have an IQ of 140-150. The IQ-achievement correlation is there but far from absolute.

The Jewish issue and Askenazi intelligence is complicated and sensitive. I'll leave it to others to expand on it if they wish.

Communicating with the 'Great Spirit' or finding happiness or purpose in life are separate issues. Many would argue they are a lot more important than being born with high intelligence. I wonder what sort of correlation there is between general well being and tested IQ. I remember reading somewhere that a lot of geniuses were generally unhappy.

Rock
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Post by Rock » November 15th, 2010, 7:52 am

Repatriate wrote:
Rock wrote: I'd take 150 over 70 any day. I'd love to be a 'mad genius', lol. When I talk about intellectual giants, I don't just mean academic leaders and business gurus. For example, con artist Steven Russell is said to have an IQ of over 160. I doubt someone who tested within 1-2 SD of mean IQ could have pulled-off all the shit he did.
True but there are all sorts of variables which determine success in life and IQ is just one component. For instance if you had to live the rest of your life in the U.S. would you prefer to be a genius IQ black man from a poor family or the dumb white scion of a billionaire old money family? I suppose you could say the black genius could always become wildly success but yet I have seen and met people who were extremely intelligent but just didn't have the specific advantages or social variables on their side to turn it into something worthwhile.


I'd much rather live in the States as a genius IQ black man from a poor family than a dumb white scion of a billionaire old money family.

As an intellectually gifted black man in today's America, I think the odds are decent that I would at least carve out an abundant, interesting and perhaps productive life. I'd probably get laid a lot too, lol. Read "Losing My Cool" for an example. The dudes scholarly father grew-up in 60s south (much worse than mainstream America today) and still managed to achieve career success and was a good athlete to boot. Now if I chose a bad path, I would probably at least be a mover and shaker and rise to a high level in the gang hierarchy. Read Sudhir Venkatesh's "Gang Leader for a Day". He shadowed a black Chicago south side gang leader for several years and in the process figured out the city wide organizational charts for many of Chicago's street gangs along with average compensation of different levels. Near the bottom, you got well below minimum wage as a street corner crack dealer and odds were 1 out of 4 that you'd be smoked within 5 years on the job. This job attracted a lot of young thug wannabes but the ones who were smarter quickly rose out of it or left it for suckers work in regular society. The leader he shadowed controlled just 1 building of the Robert Taylor Homes and was clearly a bright guy. He pulled-in around $150K per year with good prospects to continue rising as he got older. And an example of a bright black man who walked on both sides of the line is Greg Mathis who went from gang banger to TV judge.

On the flip-side, being a dull white guy in a billionaire old money family might suck. I'd probably not have much freedom as these families are often very controlling. I wouldn't know what to make of my life or realize all the options in front of me. I'd just be a lost soul detached from society. Other family members might be ashamed of me too and try to hide me from outsiders. Consider Rosemary Kennedy, a child of low intelligence surrounded by gifted siblings in very rich and prominent family. Her father had her lobotomized at the age of 23 and she spent the rest of her life in a near vegetative state.
Last edited by Rock on November 15th, 2010, 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rock
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Post by Rock » November 15th, 2010, 8:17 am

Repatriate wrote:
BTW, China had poor nutrition, healthcare, and saw intense social drama for decades last century. But the average tested IQ in that country is higher than for any nation in Western Europe or North America. A large percentage of descendants to present day American Jews suffered things much worse over short and long term history. Yet Jewish Americans scores are off the charts - nearly 1 SD above the US mean.
People are durable and often times even after the most destructive periods (as in the case of China) all it takes is a couple generations before the people can recover. Plus in a country as large as this you will still have people who managed to insulate themselves from a lot of the destruction. It still took a lot of time the people underwent famines, intercine wars, broken families during the various communist purges, etc.. All these things happened over a 150 year period. China was totally stagnant until the opening of the economy and the increase in rural healthcare. There's a TED lecture that charts the hundreds of millions of people that were lifted out of poverty and enjoyed improved infant mortality rates in just the 70's. Then communist reforms in education boosted literacy and the rest is history. This is why there's such a lag between India and China to the present day. India had many problems organizing rural reform and still does. Even those IQ averages put India at a very low 81 and I believe there's much more social variables there negatively effecting their development. I don't believe that Indians on average are innately more stupid than Chinese people as the stats seem to suggest.

I'm not sure I would say that Jews had it worse. They were on the top of the academic and business food chain even prior to WW2. What happened to them is comparable to a black day type stock market crash. It's an exogenous shock they can recover from rather quickly because even though a lot of their people were murdered they still had a very educated and skilled elite class of people to build from.

It's much more difficult to take people who have lagged behind for over a century and then increase things like literacy rates, healthcare, etc.. so the children have the proper nutrition to develop. Then you have to try and cultivate a productive middle class from this peasant stock. China was really starting from scratch after the great leap forward and cultural revolution.

Good points. I was just countering your previous argument that poor nutrition, health care, and intense social drama might depress IQ test scores of a population.

Jewish people have had many extremely tough periods in their long history. WWII is just a recent example.

The India mean IQ has always baffled me. Could it be that India is a relatively heterogeneous country vis-a-vis a country like China which is strongly dominated by ethnic Han Chinese? Perhaps only some sub-sets or groups in India tend to be more gifted intellectually? Or perhaps extremely impoverished environments, which India has a lot of, influence development of residents? Perhaps poor nutrition, health care, etc. plays a role at the extreme end. But once these variables are removed, IQ levels of subsequent generations should quickly recover to natural bounds as per China example? Many members of the Indian diaspora are clearly gifted intellectually and risen to very high levels in business and academic worlds. Of course these types can be found within India as well.

Some studies claim a correlation between average brain size and mean IQ levels of a given population. They claim there are physiological differences between groups of people which are a source of IQ differences. Very non-PC and controversial. Any thoughts?

Repatriate
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Post by Repatriate » November 16th, 2010, 4:33 am

Rock wrote:
Jewish people have had many extremely tough periods in their long history. WWII is just a recent example.
It's true they were generally discriminated against and endured pogrom type action in various nations but through the relatively modern era they have always been able to keep up a sustainable level of economic prosperity and social prominence. You'd have to look pretty far back to see most Jews living in abject poverty for a long period of time. A group of people can still thrive under discriminatory circumstances. However, if most of them were kept impoverished and unhealthy..that's quite a different story.
The India mean IQ has always baffled me. Could it be that India is a relatively heterogeneous country vis-a-vis a country like China which is strongly dominated by ethnic Han Chinese? Perhaps only some sub-sets or groups in India tend to be more gifted intellectually? Or perhaps extremely impoverished environments, which India has a lot of, influence development of residents? Perhaps poor nutrition, health care, etc. plays a role at the extreme end. But once these variables are removed, IQ levels of subsequent generations should quickly recover to natural bounds as per China example? Many members of the Indian diaspora are clearly gifted intellectually and risen to very high levels in business and academic worlds. Of course these types can be found within India as well.
I don't believe there's one variable responsible but a combination or "perfect storm" that keeps development stagnant in some parts. India has much poorer infrastructure than China, arguably more corruption, a traditional caste, and it's definitely a fractured society along ethno-religious lines. Infant mortality, nutrition, etc.. is terrible in rural India, this alone could account for a lot of the stunted mental development. The low literacy average for India indicates to me there are entire groups deprived of an education (rural women) and it's also a significant factor.

I do believe the "nurture" argument of IQ more and that if the aforementioned problems were improved they wouldn't have any particular unique problems developing.
Some studies claim a correlation between average brain size and mean IQ levels of a given population. They claim there are physiological differences between groups of people which are a source of IQ differences. Very non-PC and controversial. Any thoughts?
I don't know much about those particular studies but I really doubt it's that definitive. If we could measure IQ through just brain size alone we could totally optimize a population by giving everyone a brain scan post puberty and assigning potential occupational fields of study. You could certainly compare encephalization quotient (like in this article http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20 ... lphin.html) with different species though. I still believe the human brain is just far more complex than that and gets down to particular neural myelin and dendrites each individual possesses.

A few good books i've read about this in the past were Arthur Jensen's work (G factor, Clocking the mind) and Dr. Lynn's IQ and the Wealth of Nations. I am a bit skeptical about the research done though because several highly respected scientists have rebutted their research claims and data sets. It's still interesting to read their theories though.

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Post by NorthAmericanguy » November 17th, 2010, 2:31 am

Rock wrote:
Jewish people have had many extremely tough periods in their long history. WWII is just a recent example.
And it was Jews who were behind the trans Atlantic slave trade. And it's Jews who are causing all these problems in Western Asia with this newly created state (Israel). So I don't have any sympathy for them.

In fact, since Jews control the media, they make sure people that you know all about their difficult history (break out the violins) but they completely ignore the American Indians who were wiped out completely, or the difficulties that African people have gone though since the Punic wars and the fall of Carthage.

FormerWallStreeter
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Post by FormerWallStreeter » August 22nd, 2012, 8:43 am

IQ and most of the "scientific evidence" in this thread is pure garbage and propaganda. Criteria created by subjective people aiming for a specific result.

Africa and people of African decent are relatively poor (for now) because the countries there, as well as related people in the US, are young (since independence, the end of Jim Crow, and lack old, generational money) and have suffered, and continue to suffer, massive resource exploitation (predatory lending, multinational mining without taxation, etc etc), institutional discrimination (banking, education, justice system), and government-propping (foreign aid, lobbying) by Western multinationals.

I'm shocked to hear a bunch of free-thinkers that reject the "only place on earth" notion, yet would embrace this nonsense. I worked with brilliance of all shapes, sizes, ages, colors, and hues. There is no racial or ethnic pattern to greatness.

And mankind can not advance further technologically (lest we destroy the planet) until Africa is "online" and has made it's contribution to the body of human knowledge and greatness... FOR THE SECOND TIME... as Africa gave us, uh... um... things like, uh.... ALGEBRA and GEOMETRY (Cushites). We could really use some more of that Afro thought to solve some of our modern problems and our techno-stalemate. Weren't we supposed to have flying cars by now? Cushites, help!

It takes ALL kinds.

FWS

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These topics are momentary fist bumps for some

Post by ErikHeaven » August 22nd, 2012, 10:45 am

They keep coming up as some people love the notion of degrading one side of people as it makes them look superior. I on a regular basis most of the time always pass most tests that i take. I passed my Insurance license the first time yet we had a few whites and a few blacks fail and take it a few more times. Recently i passed my General Knowledge for my CDL test the first time.
Yet i failed the Passenger Endorsement.
IQ test are very divisive. I read somewhere that 90% of all white males work for white males and they will never open their own business or create anything. So that means what?
My mother had me in private school up until the ninth grade. I took and IQ test and scored 140 so that means what?
Finally if you have seen i think it was 20/20 they had a program on that most geniuses are not successful. Most successful people have an abundance of higher ambition.
I know some black males that are dumber than a bag of rocks and i know a few whites and asians that way too.

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Post by woody » August 22nd, 2012, 3:49 pm

I agree with pretty much everything that NorthAmericanGuy said. This article; to me is nothing more than another piece of crap that has been written to separate and segregate the population to make other races and people feel superior to others. Africa has a history that was far greater than any other in the beginning of time but it has been all covered up. American Indians also had a great history and it has been covered up. The only thing a kid learns about in school now are basically the accomplishments of the white race. It's not equal in schools. The only way a black person from America learns about true black history he has to go to an all black college where it is taught. You won't learn the truth at a white college that for sure.

patrick
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Post by patrick » August 22nd, 2012, 4:32 pm

those test have been specifically made by and for highly industrialised countries so i don't think it's applicable to African countries as well.
Whites or Asian would probably also score lower if they took an IQ test made by and for African countries.

patrick
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Post by patrick » August 22nd, 2012, 4:33 pm

those test have been specifically made by and for highly industrialised countries so i don't think it's applicable to African countries as well.
Whites or Asian would probably also score lower if they took an IQ test made by and for African countries.

Jester
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Post by Jester » August 22nd, 2012, 8:13 pm

MrPeabody wrote:IQ tests are good at predicting success at activities necessary to the maintenance of a complex, technically oriented society. For example, an IQ test may be good at predicting who will make a good tax attorney. The test may accurately select which worker bees go into which levels of the hierarchy. But, if the average tax attorney is laid off, is he intelligent enough to create his own business? The IQ tests don’t seem to measure this kind of intelligence. Is being a slave of the system really intelligent? And what about a person’s ability to communicate with the Great Spirit, or do a successful vision quest to find his purpose in life, or to be happy? None of this is measured. And as for the Jews, in the 1940s they would willingly line up to be shot, and most weren’t smart enough to get out of a dangerous situation, and had to be rescued by the West. An intelligent aborigine would have either run like hell or fought bravely to the death.
+1

Jester
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Re: These topics are momentary fist bumps for some

Post by Jester » August 22nd, 2012, 8:25 pm

ErikHeaven wrote:They keep coming up as some people love the notion of degrading one side of people as it makes them look superior. I on a regular basis most of the time always pass most tests that i take. I passed my Insurance license the first time yet we had a few whites and a few blacks fail and take it a few more times. Recently i passed my General Knowledge for my CDL test the first time.
Yet i failed the Passenger Endorsement.
IQ test are very divisive. I read somewhere that 90% of all white males work for white males and they will never open their own business or create anything. So that means what?
My mother had me in private school up until the ninth grade. I took and IQ test and scored 140 so that means what?
Finally if you have seen i think it was 20/20 they had a program on that most geniuses are not successful. Most successful people have an abundance of higher ambition.
I know some black males that are dumber than a bag of rocks and i know a few whites and asians that way too.
Lysenko postulated that learned characteristics can be inherited. I.e., ducks inherit the knowledge of flying south for the winter, no because other ducks died off. This would explain the rapid development of societies that value learning - e.g. ancient China, upper-class (Aryan) India, ancient Greece, ancient and medieval Italy, medieval and modern Germany, medieval and modern Britain, etc.

In other words, genes are destiny, birth family environment is destiny, friends you choose are destiny... but also.... what your parents chose is destiny.

In response to the OP, rigorous education and discipline would lift Africa's average IQ not overnight, but in just several generations. Millions of years are not required.

Habits, habits, habits.

Jester
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Post by Jester » August 22nd, 2012, 8:27 pm

Oh and let me add - the slow-kill-genocide AngloZionist mis-education and de-education now going on in USSA media and schools will produce Idiocracy within a couple of generations. Idiocracy with lots of fair-complexioned idiots included. Already happening.
"Well actually, she's not REALLY my daughter. But she does like to call me Daddy... at certain moments..."

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