DarthXedonias wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 8:28 am
hmm I think I might be able to give some valued input on this since I had spent, up to just a few months ago, hanging out with a bunch of MGTOWs for months in a popular MGTOW content creators discord and watch the more modern MGTOW content. I will say I will add some caveats to what I said in my thread after thinking about it more and remembering some things I had read. I weirdly agree with both Matty and Yohan. That might sound weird or contradictory but I think it will make sense with what I have to say. I agree with Matty that this stuff needs to be not only discussed but fixed badly. Though I admit that I'm not quite optimistic about any of that. The men's right movement which seems to noticed the problem and not be extreme as "most Present day" MGTOWS (more on that later) really hasn't had any victories. This is after decades of being in existence. Matter of fact the mainstream media and feminist vilify them. If they try to host talks or conferences they usually get bomb threats or are shouted down as misogynistic. With that track record I'm not really hopeful any of this will dealt with. I mean more and more young man are shunning marriage, at least in western countries, cause they realize how bias the courts are and that it just isn't good deal for men until the laws change to be more "fair". That does give me hope that many more men are waking up to these issues and that western society at large treats them like shit if they don't fit some approved category (rich, famous, etc). I also think this is why your seeing more and more laws coming in about sexual assault and rape (making the laws even more ridiculous and easy for men to be accused of something). Many Gender/feminist Gender studies majors get their jobs in divorce court or female advocacy offices. With the decline in marriage rates there is not as much money coming through that avenue so they have to make their money from somewhere else. Hence make up some Sexual assault/rape epidemic with false information or make it easier for women to file false reports or to be believed through stupid laws so the money keeps coming in. Its kind of sad that the end of marriages have become nothing more than avenues of money for Lawyers, social workers, judges and feminist groups.
On the other hand I do see a lot of things right with what Yohan said though for a particular reason I have the suspicion that hes probably more familiar with the 'earlier" version of MGTOW which was probably more better. I say this because in my months of research I had come across some articles and such about people who were from the early years of MGTOW who then stopped using that label because something within the movement went horriable wrong and it presently doesn't look like it used to be. When Yohan said that he knew MGTOWS that were married this kind of confirmed my suspicions. I don't know if you keep up with the more present day MGTOW content but I can confirm shit has changed and it seems like the present day MGTOW movement has gone to further extremes as feminism has gone to further extremes. Like for example, if you look up most present day MGTOW content you will hear unanimously that a guy can't be married and be MGTOW (I am literally not making this up. Look up most of the present day content and you will see this). Its seems from my perspective 2 things have happened. (1) as feminist lobbied for more outrageous, unfair laws MGTOW has moved further to the extreme from the early days. The majority opinion has moved from you can be either a married MGTOW, a MGTOW that just dates women but never commits, and a MGTOW monk (have not relationship whatsoever with women) to just either sometimes just occasionally dating (though its getting more and more that even this stance is getting shouted down as stupid or your just a mangina) to mostly just being Monk is the only way with maybe a sex doll.
I am not kidding you, the amount of guys in the MGTOW movement who see sex dolls as a better alternative (a good portion even see it better than dealing with foreign women) to women has pretty much exploded. I could name 2 very good and presently popular MGTOW content creators who advertise Sex dolls and a very good majority who advocate only monk mode. I think another problem is that since MGTOW is such a decentralized movement there is one issue that has popped up. Since its so decentralized (not saying centralization would make it better) anyone can join the movement and claim themselves as MGTOW. If say a lot of people join the movement who agree with Monk mode only (maybe because they are bitter from their experiences with American women and think they represent all women which is a common thing I've come of cross) then that becomes the de facto stance. After a while all the previous valid stances ( married MGTOW or only dating MGTOW) become shouted down as not really MGTOW or the stance of only blue pilled cucks (Believe me, I've heard it before). I think this might be the crux of the disagreement. Matty might be talking about the more present day version of MGTOW and Yohan is probably talking about how mainstream MGTOW thought used to be which was more center on self actualization. Mind you this is why a lot of the older MGTOWs who don't call themselves that anymore ended up leaving the movement because it turned from self actualization with a bit of things about western females to totally blaming females for everything (I heard this ad naseum 90% of the time in that famous MGTOW server and in the content I watched) and saying western women = women everywhere.
Its all kind of sad because the kind of MGTOW movement Yohan describes sounds a lot more balanced and self actualized than what you find today. Present day MGTOW content just sounds like endless complaining about women and almost zero talk about self actualization. Anyway, I feel like that might solve where the disagreement might be. Yohan is talking about what MGTOW was as a movement and Matty is talking about what it has turned into. At least that is how I see it based on my research.
You got some things right, but some things not so right.....
First, MGTOW is not a movement. It is set of core beliefs and practices that break men from their social conditioning to be slaves to women, children, and the state. The reason you hear so much complaining about women is the de-conditioning process that is going against both gynocentric inculcation AND male biological disposition to give women a pass so men can advance their sexual strategies.
The sex doll theme is from Turd Flinging Monkey who gets paid to market them on his show. His advocacy for sex dolls is meant to both be funny, and to make women go insanely mad about it which they are. Very few men actually want sex dolls, but to put out that they are actually better than real women is a blow to the female ego. This is why the dolls are such a prominent theme.
MGTOW is fundamentally anti-marriage because of the extreme control it exerts against men. However, who am I to say that a MGTOW who goes abroad to pair-bond (ie marry) in a traditional society is not also MGTOW so long as he lives his life in a red pill manner? What is to say that legally separated men who still pay child support can't be MGTOW so long as they are working for the day when they unplug? I could rant about how unmarried MGTOW with debt and mortgages are not really MGTOW because they are stuck in the rat race and that only debt-free men can be MGTOW. That would be foolish of me because life is a set of stages and choices that men are working through. If a man chooses to be married outside of the West while Red Pill, it means he is realistic about what could happen, has taken precautions and he understands female nature more than most men. A man married in the West to a Western woman is too far afield to be living a MGTOW life however. He might later.
Most MGTOW love to date women and we do it quite a lot. Just because there are a few who have no desire for women any longer does not make celibacy a part of MGTOW. That is a myth advanced by feminists, men (usually married cucks) who wish to discredit MGTOW, or Incels who have gravitated over to MGTOW from the True Forced Loneliness camp.
I consider myself a "blood red pill" MGTOW because I can pick up and leave to move to the next country when I please. I date who I please. I generally do what I please, when I please, how I please without limitation from the state, marriage, a woman or otherwise. That is a true MGTOW life. Might I decide to sire a child? Probably not, but if I met a girl with an IQ above 160, I might consider it just to have a worthy spot to leave my wealth and wisdom after I die. If that does not happen, I really do not care. I have a will and my kitty will go to two men's organizations and my brother. So I'll just continue living life as a permanent vacation. This is MGTOW and I have been an active MGTOW for well over a decade now.
One final thing you need to keep in mind when viewing MGTOW content is that those content creators are simply expressing what MGTOW means for THEM ONLY, not in general. They are giving you THEIR OWN interpretation of MGTOW and hoping you co-sign. But an individualistic lifestyle like MGTOW is inclusive by definition. MGTOW come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and we are not struck from the same stone nor do we want to be.