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Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Vent your rants and raves here about whatever makes you mad, angry or frustrated.

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Adama
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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Adama » February 27th, 2018, 4:41 am

Yohan wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 11:58 pm
Adama wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 5:56 pm
I must say, that anyone practicing to destroy an innocent person, whether either party is a man or a woman, is only seeking to destroy themselves.

I faced a false sexual harassment accusation at one job.

.....

I had no idea that women's egos could be so massive that, even if you simply remove yourself from them and leave them alone, they will sometimes still come at you like a ravening wolf to devour your soul.

I've had some really bad experiences at the hands of women. I really have no idea what to do either, because porn and prostitutes are out of the question.
This is a very interesting comment from Adama.

MGTOWs advice is against feminism and not against women in general, and the question about the story from Adama is what happened to this woman AFTER it turned out there was no sexual harassment at all. My guess, nothing happened... so she did not destroy herself... feminism is protecting her.

MGTOWs give advice NEVER to date any woman at the workplace. Just say good morning when entering and good bye when leaving.
It's too risky, even if you have the best intention as a man. MGTOWs are risk-averse, you risk your job, just because you are trying to talk a few private words with a woman? - It''s not worth it... you never know what her reaction might be and nobody will protect you as a man in case of false accusations coming from a woman - for sure do not expect any help from any employer, especially not if the employer is a man as he is afraid of feminism himself.
Her reputation was destroyed twice over.

The point of the story though is that oftentimes these women are not going to get away with it. The trap she laid for me was the same one she fell into: destroyed reputation and shame.

As for not talking to women at work, that is a very good idea. But that just shows how dangerous ravenous beasts are. Somehow I suspect though, that if I had met a similar person on the street outside of a work environment, they would try another way to destroy me. It is just a tool for destroyers. The fact is that there are many tools in their kit though. In other words, it doesn't matter where you meet the wolf. Once you encounter a bloodthirsty, filthy animal, they will use whatever means they have to eat up your soul.

I've had problems with men at work, too, who were trying to get me fired for simple things, like reporting me to my boss for breaking rules (like saying I entered in through the wrong entrance).

Male or female, ravening wolves are just destroyers who mark and measure your every step and every word so they can use it against you to destroy life.

The problem with women though, is that men have a natural desire to find partnership and companionship with them, and many of them have ruined themselves and turned into sociopaths. They have the advantage there for this reason, and society is matriarchal and supports their evil.
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

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Adama
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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Adama » February 27th, 2018, 5:23 am

You guys should read the proverbs. It even says, ...But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword (a weapon of death), that they are are luring men in so they can strike a dart through their liver (murder), that they slay men and cast them down (murder), that their houses are the way to hell (eternal destruction), that the men who go unto them never return, that they reduce men down to a single piece of bread (take all their money), and that they hunt for men of high value.

It is clear that many women are simply dangerous; these are the adulteresses, the sassy women, the unruly, the loudmouthed, the rebels, and the whores (sluts in modern English). And what percentage of modern women do they comprise when these characteristics are seen as "strong" or "independent"?
A good man is above pettiness. He is better than that.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by mattyman » March 6th, 2018, 2:41 am

@ yohan
Who told you that MGTOWs consider ALL relationships with women must to be bad? Who told you that? A feminist posting some crap in a liberal forum I guess.

I know various members who are MGTOWs and who are married, but they are not living in Western countries anymore and their wife is not from Western countries. MGTOW means simply said, go your own way - away from the mainstream.

A question to you after reading your comment: How can you expose a false rape allegation, if the 'victim' (the female false accuser) has the right of anonymity for life?
How can you agree that the accused man, without any other proof but the word of the female accuser, will be published in the media with full personal data and picture?

If you do not agree with that legal issue you are automatically considered to be a misogynist by the Western pro-feminist media.

Full report see link below. What shall police and judges really do? They had no other choice but to prosecute innocent men and they were sent to jail for years. That's OK for you? Just to accuse someone of rape grants you anonymity for life?

And do you really think, she will serve 10 years? I don't think so...
You're right, a woman can be believed by word of mouth, if a man has been sexually assaulted or harassed, he will not be believed. Anonymity for life just for accusing someone of rape? If a man accuse a woman of rape, it would be a different story, no song and dance. It is not right that women can get away with murder. Worst still, the fact that if you disagree you're just labeled and shut down. All that does is makes people ANGRY and THAT is what leads to some of the extreme opinions about women. This all needs to be talked about openly in the mainstream without some kid shouting you down.

It's things like this that need open discussion, but in a more sober climate without the fear of being labeled 'mangina', 'simp' or other label (that's what feminists do and that's what I want men's rights activism moving away from.

The secret weapon is this, don't fall into the traps that the feminists do; labeling people that disagree with you, shouting down and insulting people, painting stereotypes of the other gender. I criticize MGTOW because I believe it's become the echo of, & falling into the same patterns as radical feminism, not because I disagree with what people discuss. Some of the discussions do seem extreme, but that's mostly born out of anger (rightly justified). When you understand what's behind that anger, it all makes sense.

The things MGTOW & other forums discuss do badly need discussing. Just because there are viewpoints on those platforms that I and others might not agree with, doesn't mean they're written off nor does it mean the things that are talked about shouldn't be acknowleged. If it is to be taken seriously then those more extreme opinions should be toned down a bit; e.g. 'all women want an 'alpha' and use beta's to raise their kids sort of narrative). You don't need to subscribe to narratives like that to bring up discussions of issues such as yohan has raised.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by fdiv » May 21st, 2018, 6:18 am

mattyman wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 4:59 am
Why I might sound angry
All my life I've absorbed these messages that no womn would be attracted to a guy like me (fitting the stereotypical 'beta' male). This has has since been disproven, even with experiences of an anglo women. I met this girl who was the 'type' the MGTOW brigade said would never be interested in a guy like me (e.g. pretty, long hair, nice, feminine), at the time living at home and unemployed. When I met her she actually asked if I had her number. When I told her I was living at home, she said she was happy I had family, and regarding the job situation at the time, she was in the same boat herself. No, it doesn't apply that the more 'hot' someone is, the more unforgiving they are.

Yes, I had a great chance for a relationship. I will acknowledge that the only thing I didn't do, was tell her that I liked (boy did I have the hots) her or make the same moves back that she made to me. That's it, that's all that there was too it. It's a lesson learned. Classic nice guy situation.

Now, what makes me very angry about MGTOW and the manosphere in general is how people encourage men to reflect on experiences similar to mine in not so healthy ways. They try to make men conclude that the only reason that they didn't succeed was because they're complete pussies, that they need to change the very fabric of who they are as a person; e.g. that they should become a domineering moron rather than become genuinely happy in expressing who they really are.

I know from my experience, that all I failed to do was to simply convey the fact that I liked her, THAT'S IT! I learn from that. The MGTOW community and the manosphere in general would conclude that someone in my position wasn't forward enough but, they would take it to extremes. They would say that you should have treated them mean. No, I should have simply told her I like her, move in for the kiss, that's all.Their views of what's expressing your romantic interest is what concerns me. Advocating beating women up and playing the treating them mean persona in the hope that they'd fall for you. This is basket case nice-guy-ism and non-genuineness. Dude, if that's not you and if the woman you're with isn't attracted to that sort of rubbish, isn't that selling out yourself?

What MGTOW and the manosphere don't do is they don't teach men how to address and overcome the specific fears about how to tell someone you like them, or what's stoppin you from moving in for the kiss. The do a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE job of addressing such barriers.

I am angry because prior to those experiences, those messages I was receiving from the net personally made me very depressed and de-motivated to meet new people at one point. Although I see through it for the BS that it is, I am very angry at that and I know that many others are negatively affected in the same way.

Peace.
I mean, how do you KNOW you would have been successful, despite your monumental shortcomings, if you would have "just told her you liked her". I mean, come on man. No offense, but do you know how childish you sound right now?
options in the US: maybe have a shot at a angry bluehaired landwhale and then, prison :roll:
options abroad: limitless 8)

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by MrMan » May 21st, 2018, 8:44 am

mattyman wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 4:59 am
I know from my experience, that all I failed to do was to simply convey the fact that I liked her, THAT'S IT! I learn from that. The MGTOW community and the manosphere in general would conclude that someone in my position wasn't forward enough but, they would take it to extremes. They would say that you should have treated them mean. No, I should have simply told her I like her, move in for the kiss, that's all.Their views of what's expressing your romantic interest is what concerns me. Advocating beating women up and playing the treating them mean persona in the hope that they'd fall for you. This is basket case nice-guy-ism and non-genuineness. Dude, if that's not you and if the woman you're with isn't attracted to that sort of rubbish, isn't that selling out yourself?
If they were MGTOW, they might say you did the right thing by not needing a woman, or that you should have just used her for a one-off sex act. You seem to be describing the pick up artist types on the manosphere.

I think we need some clear definitions.
What MGTOW and the manosphere don't do is they don't teach men how to address and overcome the specific fears about how to tell someone you like them, or what's stoppin you from moving in for the kiss. The do a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE job of addressing such barriers.
I suppose you can just be friendly and talk with lots of people until you learn to get more confident over time.
I am angry because prior to those experiences, those messages I was receiving from the net personally made me very depressed and de-motivated to meet new people at one point. Although I see through it for the BS that it is, I am very angry at that and I know that many others are negatively affected in the same way.
Yeah, when I was in my 20's, the Internet was just taking off and that wasn't an issue. But I can see how reading manosphere forums could discourage a young man. A lot of people on this forum are too extreme, too, saying that there are absolutely no American women who are worthy of dating or marriage. I agree that there are some toxic aspects to the culture, but there can be individual counter-cultural women who can make good spouses.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by GuyAbroad8293 » May 21st, 2018, 11:54 am

What women want? They want to be treated like shit.

Don't fall for the blue pill. The blue pill forums are what is full of negative people. Places like SlutHate and RooshV
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i'm literally bulletproof, for real. My friend shot a gun at me and the bullet bounced right off me.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by mattyman » May 25th, 2018, 4:20 am

^Sluthate, Rooshv, they are the same things dressed in different names. Same silly 'us and them' arguments, no attempts to understand the other side of the argument.

"A lot of people on this forum are too extreme, too, saying that there are absolutely no American women who are worthy of dating or marriage. I agree that there are some toxic aspects to the culture, but there can be individual counter-cultural women who can make good spouses."
This forum is moderate in that regard, I do value the things that are said about the dating scene. What Winston Wu writes about is highly relevant to my experiences. I don't consider this site to be manosphere in the sense that there isn't that much in the way of extreme views The very extreme opinions you see on MGTOW sites and Rooshv are the cause of concern that I bring-up in this thread.
I mean, how do you KNOW you would have been successful, despite your monumental shortcomings, if you would have "just told her you liked her". I mean, come on man. No offense, but do you know how childish you sound right now?
Thankyou sir, I'm more than happy to listen to you advice, but if you're going to use such shaming language I'd rather you start another thread. Can we keep this on topic.

I know for a fact that a lot of people who turn to MGTOW do so for the simple fact of the matter that they were in the situation similar to I was, rather than admitting what they could have done better, they decided to take the anger out on women as a whole. At least I've admitted what I could have done better, and what's more, I don't give a shit about negative criticism. If you had any good advice to share, I know it won't be phrased in that way. The way it was phrased tells me more about you than it does about me. If you like someone, tell them straight that you fancy them, that's all. We need to look at ourselves sometimes.

DarthXedonias
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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by DarthXedonias » June 27th, 2018, 4:28 pm

mattyman wrote:
March 6th, 2018, 2:41 am
@ yohan
Who told you that MGTOWs consider ALL relationships with women must to be bad? Who told you that? A feminist posting some crap in a liberal forum I guess.

I know various members who are MGTOWs and who are married, but they are not living in Western countries anymore and their wife is not from Western countries. MGTOW means simply said, go your own way - away from the mainstream.

A question to you after reading your comment: How can you expose a false rape allegation, if the 'victim' (the female false accuser) has the right of anonymity for life?
How can you agree that the accused man, without any other proof but the word of the female accuser, will be published in the media with full personal data and picture?

If you do not agree with that legal issue you are automatically considered to be a misogynist by the Western pro-feminist media.

Full report see link below. What shall police and judges really do? They had no other choice but to prosecute innocent men and they were sent to jail for years. That's OK for you? Just to accuse someone of rape grants you anonymity for life?

And do you really think, she will serve 10 years? I don't think so...
You're right, a woman can be believed by word of mouth, if a man has been sexually assaulted or harassed, he will not be believed. Anonymity for life just for accusing someone of rape? If a man accuse a woman of rape, it would be a different story, no song and dance. It is not right that women can get away with murder. Worst still, the fact that if you disagree you're just labeled and shut down. All that does is makes people ANGRY and THAT is what leads to some of the extreme opinions about women. This all needs to be talked about openly in the mainstream without some kid shouting you down.

It's things like this that need open discussion, but in a more sober climate without the fear of being labeled 'mangina', 'simp' or other label (that's what feminists do and that's what I want men's rights activism moving away from.

The secret weapon is this, don't fall into the traps that the feminists do; labeling people that disagree with you, shouting down and insulting people, painting stereotypes of the other gender. I criticize MGTOW because I believe it's become the echo of, & falling into the same patterns as radical feminism, not because I disagree with what people discuss. Some of the discussions do seem extreme, but that's mostly born out of anger (rightly justified). When you understand what's behind that anger, it all makes sense.

The things MGTOW & other forums discuss do badly need discussing. Just because there are viewpoints on those platforms that I and others might not agree with, doesn't mean they're written off nor does it mean the things that are talked about shouldn't be acknowleged. If it is to be taken seriously then those more extreme opinions should be toned down a bit; e.g. 'all women want an 'alpha' and use beta's to raise their kids sort of narrative). You don't need to subscribe to narratives like that to bring up discussions of issues such as yohan has raised.
hmm I think I might be able to give some valued input on this since I had spent, up to just a few months ago, hanging out with a bunch of MGTOWs for months in a popular MGTOW content creators discord and watch the more modern MGTOW content. I will say I will add some caveats to what I said in my thread after thinking about it more and remembering some things I had read. I weirdly agree with both Matty and Yohan. That might sound weird or contradictory but I think it will make sense with what I have to say. I agree with Matty that this stuff needs to be not only discussed but fixed badly. Though I admit that I'm not quite optimistic about any of that. The men's right movement which seems to noticed the problem and not be extreme as "most Present day" MGTOWS (more on that later) really hasn't had any victories. This is after decades of being in existence. Matter of fact the mainstream media and feminist vilify them. If they try to host talks or conferences they usually get bomb threats or are shouted down as misogynistic. With that track record I'm not really hopeful any of this will dealt with. I mean more and more young man are shunning marriage, at least in western countries, cause they realize how bias the courts are and that it just isn't good deal for men until the laws change to be more "fair". That does give me hope that many more men are waking up to these issues and that western society at large treats them like shit if they don't fit some approved category (rich, famous, etc). I also think this is why your seeing more and more laws coming in about sexual assault and rape (making the laws even more ridiculous and easy for men to be accused of something). Many Gender/feminist Gender studies majors get their jobs in divorce court or female advocacy offices. With the decline in marriage rates there is not as much money coming through that avenue so they have to make their money from somewhere else. Hence make up some Sexual assault/rape epidemic with false information or make it easier for women to file false reports or to be believed through stupid laws so the money keeps coming in. Its kind of sad that the end of marriages have become nothing more than avenues of money for Lawyers, social workers, judges and feminist groups.

On the other hand I do see a lot of things right with what Yohan said though for a particular reason I have the suspicion that hes probably more familiar with the 'earlier" version of MGTOW which was probably more better. I say this because in my months of research I had come across some articles and such about people who were from the early years of MGTOW who then stopped using that label because something within the movement went horriable wrong and it presently doesn't look like it used to be. When Yohan said that he knew MGTOWS that were married this kind of confirmed my suspicions. I don't know if you keep up with the more present day MGTOW content but I can confirm shit has changed and it seems like the present day MGTOW movement has gone to further extremes as feminism has gone to further extremes. Like for example, if you look up most present day MGTOW content you will hear unanimously that a guy can't be married and be MGTOW (I am literally not making this up. Look up most of the present day content and you will see this). Its seems from my perspective 2 things have happened. (1) as feminist lobbied for more outrageous, unfair laws MGTOW has moved further to the extreme from the early days. The majority opinion has moved from you can be either a married MGTOW, a MGTOW that just dates women but never commits, and a MGTOW monk (have not relationship whatsoever with women) to just either sometimes just occasionally dating (though its getting more and more that even this stance is getting shouted down as stupid or your just a mangina) to mostly just being Monk is the only way with maybe a sex doll.

I am not kidding you, the amount of guys in the MGTOW movement who see sex dolls as a better alternative (a good portion even see it better than dealing with foreign women) to women has pretty much exploded. I could name 2 very good and presently popular MGTOW content creators who advertise Sex dolls and a very good majority who advocate only monk mode. I think another problem is that since MGTOW is such a decentralized movement there is one issue that has popped up. Since its so decentralized (not saying centralization would make it better) anyone can join the movement and claim themselves as MGTOW. If say a lot of people join the movement who agree with Monk mode only (maybe because they are bitter from their experiences with American women and think they represent all women which is a common thing I've come of cross) then that becomes the de facto stance. After a while all the previous valid stances ( married MGTOW or only dating MGTOW) become shouted down as not really MGTOW or the stance of only blue pilled cucks (Believe me, I've heard it before). I think this might be the crux of the disagreement. Matty might be talking about the more present day version of MGTOW and Yohan is probably talking about how mainstream MGTOW thought used to be which was more center on self actualization. Mind you this is why a lot of the older MGTOWs who don't call themselves that anymore ended up leaving the movement because it turned from self actualization with a bit of things about western females to totally blaming females for everything (I heard this ad naseum 90% of the time in that famous MGTOW server and in the content I watched) and saying western women = women everywhere.

Its all kind of sad because the kind of MGTOW movement Yohan describes sounds a lot more balanced and self actualized than what you find today. Present day MGTOW content just sounds like endless complaining about women and almost zero talk about self actualization. Anyway, I feel like that might solve where the disagreement might be. Yohan is talking about what MGTOW was as a movement and Matty is talking about what it has turned into. At least that is how I see it based on my research.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 27th, 2018, 6:40 pm

DarthXedonias wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 4:28 pm

hmm I think I might be able to give some valued input on this since I had spent, up to just a few months ago, hanging out with a bunch of MGTOWs for months in a popular MGTOW content creators discord and watch the more modern MGTOW content. I will say I will add some caveats to what I said in my thread after thinking about it more and remembering some things I had read. I weirdly agree with both Matty and Yohan. That might sound weird or contradictory but I think it will make sense with what I have to say. I agree with Matty that this stuff needs to be not only discussed but fixed badly. Though I admit that I'm not quite optimistic about any of that. The men's right movement which seems to noticed the problem and not be extreme as "most Present day" MGTOWS (more on that later) really hasn't had any victories. This is after decades of being in existence. Matter of fact the mainstream media and feminist vilify them. If they try to host talks or conferences they usually get bomb threats or are shouted down as misogynistic. With that track record I'm not really hopeful any of this will dealt with. I mean more and more young man are shunning marriage, at least in western countries, cause they realize how bias the courts are and that it just isn't good deal for men until the laws change to be more "fair". That does give me hope that many more men are waking up to these issues and that western society at large treats them like shit if they don't fit some approved category (rich, famous, etc). I also think this is why your seeing more and more laws coming in about sexual assault and rape (making the laws even more ridiculous and easy for men to be accused of something). Many Gender/feminist Gender studies majors get their jobs in divorce court or female advocacy offices. With the decline in marriage rates there is not as much money coming through that avenue so they have to make their money from somewhere else. Hence make up some Sexual assault/rape epidemic with false information or make it easier for women to file false reports or to be believed through stupid laws so the money keeps coming in. Its kind of sad that the end of marriages have become nothing more than avenues of money for Lawyers, social workers, judges and feminist groups.

On the other hand I do see a lot of things right with what Yohan said though for a particular reason I have the suspicion that hes probably more familiar with the 'earlier" version of MGTOW which was probably more better. I say this because in my months of research I had come across some articles and such about people who were from the early years of MGTOW who then stopped using that label because something within the movement went horriable wrong and it presently doesn't look like it used to be. When Yohan said that he knew MGTOWS that were married this kind of confirmed my suspicions. I don't know if you keep up with the more present day MGTOW content but I can confirm shit has changed and it seems like the present day MGTOW movement has gone to further extremes as feminism has gone to further extremes. Like for example, if you look up most present day MGTOW content you will hear unanimously that a guy can't be married and be MGTOW (I am literally not making this up. Look up most of the present day content and you will see this). Its seems from my perspective 2 things have happened. (1) as feminist lobbied for more outrageous, unfair laws MGTOW has moved further to the extreme from the early days. The majority opinion has moved from you can be either a married MGTOW, a MGTOW that just dates women but never commits, and a MGTOW monk (have not relationship whatsoever with women) to just either sometimes just occasionally dating (though its getting more and more that even this stance is getting shouted down as stupid or your just a mangina) to mostly just being Monk is the only way with maybe a sex doll.

I am not kidding you, the amount of guys in the MGTOW movement who see sex dolls as a better alternative (a good portion even see it better than dealing with foreign women) to women has pretty much exploded. I could name 2 very good and presently popular MGTOW content creators who advertise Sex dolls and a very good majority who advocate only monk mode. I think another problem is that since MGTOW is such a decentralized movement there is one issue that has popped up. Since its so decentralized (not saying centralization would make it better) anyone can join the movement and claim themselves as MGTOW. If say a lot of people join the movement who agree with Monk mode only (maybe because they are bitter from their experiences with American women and think they represent all women which is a common thing I've come of cross) then that becomes the de facto stance. After a while all the previous valid stances ( married MGTOW or only dating MGTOW) become shouted down as not really MGTOW or the stance of only blue pilled cucks (Believe me, I've heard it before). I think this might be the crux of the disagreement. Matty might be talking about the more present day version of MGTOW and Yohan is probably talking about how mainstream MGTOW thought used to be which was more center on self actualization. Mind you this is why a lot of the older MGTOWs who don't call themselves that anymore ended up leaving the movement because it turned from self actualization with a bit of things about western females to totally blaming females for everything (I heard this ad naseum 90% of the time in that famous MGTOW server and in the content I watched) and saying western women = women everywhere.

Its all kind of sad because the kind of MGTOW movement Yohan describes sounds a lot more balanced and self actualized than what you find today. Present day MGTOW content just sounds like endless complaining about women and almost zero talk about self actualization. Anyway, I feel like that might solve where the disagreement might be. Yohan is talking about what MGTOW was as a movement and Matty is talking about what it has turned into. At least that is how I see it based on my research.
You got some things right, but some things not so right.....

First, MGTOW is not a movement. It is set of core beliefs and practices that break men from their social conditioning to be slaves to women, children, and the state. The reason you hear so much complaining about women is the de-conditioning process that is going against both gynocentric inculcation AND male biological disposition to give women a pass so men can advance their sexual strategies.

The sex doll theme is from Turd Flinging Monkey who gets paid to market them on his show. His advocacy for sex dolls is meant to both be funny, and to make women go insanely mad about it which they are. Very few men actually want sex dolls, but to put out that they are actually better than real women is a blow to the female ego. This is why the dolls are such a prominent theme.

MGTOW is fundamentally anti-marriage because of the extreme control it exerts against men. However, who am I to say that a MGTOW who goes abroad to pair-bond (ie marry) in a traditional society is not also MGTOW so long as he lives his life in a red pill manner? What is to say that legally separated men who still pay child support can't be MGTOW so long as they are working for the day when they unplug? I could rant about how unmarried MGTOW with debt and mortgages are not really MGTOW because they are stuck in the rat race and that only debt-free men can be MGTOW. That would be foolish of me because life is a set of stages and choices that men are working through. If a man chooses to be married outside of the West while Red Pill, it means he is realistic about what could happen, has taken precautions and he understands female nature more than most men. A man married in the West to a Western woman is too far afield to be living a MGTOW life however. He might later.

Most MGTOW love to date women and we do it quite a lot. Just because there are a few who have no desire for women any longer does not make celibacy a part of MGTOW. That is a myth advanced by feminists, men (usually married cucks) who wish to discredit MGTOW, or Incels who have gravitated over to MGTOW from the True Forced Loneliness camp.

I consider myself a "blood red pill" MGTOW because I can pick up and leave to move to the next country when I please. I date who I please. I generally do what I please, when I please, how I please without limitation from the state, marriage, a woman or otherwise. That is a true MGTOW life. Might I decide to sire a child? Probably not, but if I met a girl with an IQ above 160, I might consider it just to have a worthy spot to leave my wealth and wisdom after I die. If that does not happen, I really do not care. I have a will and my kitty will go to two men's organizations and my brother. So I'll just continue living life as a permanent vacation. This is MGTOW and I have been an active MGTOW for well over a decade now.

One final thing you need to keep in mind when viewing MGTOW content is that those content creators are simply expressing what MGTOW means for THEM ONLY, not in general. They are giving you THEIR OWN interpretation of MGTOW and hoping you co-sign. But an individualistic lifestyle like MGTOW is inclusive by definition. MGTOW come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and we are not struck from the same stone nor do we want to be.
Last edited by Contrarian Expatriate on June 27th, 2018, 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cornfed
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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Cornfed » June 27th, 2018, 10:03 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 6:40 pm
I consider myself a "blood red pill" MGTOW because I can pick up and leave to move to the next country when I please. I date who I please. I generally do what I please, when I please, how I please without limitation from the state, marriage, a woman or otherwise.
Sigh, if only we could all be welfare queen negros.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by gsjackson » June 28th, 2018, 2:36 am

Cornfed wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 10:03 pm
Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 6:40 pm
I consider myself a "blood red pill" MGTOW because I can pick up and leave to move to the next country when I please. I date who I please. I generally do what I please, when I please, how I please without limitation from the state, marriage, a woman or otherwise.
Sigh, if only we could all be welfare queen negros.
Just Corny's way of welcoming you back.

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Cornfed
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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Cornfed » June 28th, 2018, 2:50 am

gsjackson wrote:
June 28th, 2018, 2:36 am
Cornfed wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 10:03 pm
Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 6:40 pm
I consider myself a "blood red pill" MGTOW because I can pick up and leave to move to the next country when I please. I date who I please. I generally do what I please, when I please, how I please without limitation from the state, marriage, a woman or otherwise.
Sigh, if only we could all be welfare queen negros.
Just Corny's way of welcoming you back.
Eh, it's not even insulting. I genuinely do wish I could qualify for a government job by passing a test that I could pass by rolling out of bed with a hangover any day of the week, "work" for a few years while being wined and dined and then sponge off the proles for the rest of my life. Don't we all?

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by DarthXedonias » June 28th, 2018, 5:55 am

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 6:40 pm
DarthXedonias wrote:
June 27th, 2018, 4:28 pm

hmm I think I might be able to give some valued input on this since I had spent, up to just a few months ago, hanging out with a bunch of MGTOWs for months in a popular MGTOW content creators discord and watch the more modern MGTOW content. I will say I will add some caveats to what I said in my thread after thinking about it more and remembering some things I had read. I weirdly agree with both Matty and Yohan. That might sound weird or contradictory but I think it will make sense with what I have to say. I agree with Matty that this stuff needs to be not only discussed but fixed badly. Though I admit that I'm not quite optimistic about any of that. The men's right movement which seems to noticed the problem and not be extreme as "most Present day" MGTOWS (more on that later) really hasn't had any victories. This is after decades of being in existence. Matter of fact the mainstream media and feminist vilify them. If they try to host talks or conferences they usually get bomb threats or are shouted down as misogynistic. With that track record I'm not really hopeful any of this will dealt with. I mean more and more young man are shunning marriage, at least in western countries, cause they realize how bias the courts are and that it just isn't good deal for men until the laws change to be more "fair". That does give me hope that many more men are waking up to these issues and that western society at large treats them like shit if they don't fit some approved category (rich, famous, etc). I also think this is why your seeing more and more laws coming in about sexual assault and rape (making the laws even more ridiculous and easy for men to be accused of something). Many Gender/feminist Gender studies majors get their jobs in divorce court or female advocacy offices. With the decline in marriage rates there is not as much money coming through that avenue so they have to make their money from somewhere else. Hence make up some Sexual assault/rape epidemic with false information or make it easier for women to file false reports or to be believed through stupid laws so the money keeps coming in. Its kind of sad that the end of marriages have become nothing more than avenues of money for Lawyers, social workers, judges and feminist groups.

On the other hand I do see a lot of things right with what Yohan said though for a particular reason I have the suspicion that hes probably more familiar with the 'earlier" version of MGTOW which was probably more better. I say this because in my months of research I had come across some articles and such about people who were from the early years of MGTOW who then stopped using that label because something within the movement went horriable wrong and it presently doesn't look like it used to be. When Yohan said that he knew MGTOWS that were married this kind of confirmed my suspicions. I don't know if you keep up with the more present day MGTOW content but I can confirm shit has changed and it seems like the present day MGTOW movement has gone to further extremes as feminism has gone to further extremes. Like for example, if you look up most present day MGTOW content you will hear unanimously that a guy can't be married and be MGTOW (I am literally not making this up. Look up most of the present day content and you will see this). Its seems from my perspective 2 things have happened. (1) as feminist lobbied for more outrageous, unfair laws MGTOW has moved further to the extreme from the early days. The majority opinion has moved from you can be either a married MGTOW, a MGTOW that just dates women but never commits, and a MGTOW monk (have not relationship whatsoever with women) to just either sometimes just occasionally dating (though its getting more and more that even this stance is getting shouted down as stupid or your just a mangina) to mostly just being Monk is the only way with maybe a sex doll.

I am not kidding you, the amount of guys in the MGTOW movement who see sex dolls as a better alternative (a good portion even see it better than dealing with foreign women) to women has pretty much exploded. I could name 2 very good and presently popular MGTOW content creators who advertise Sex dolls and a very good majority who advocate only monk mode. I think another problem is that since MGTOW is such a decentralized movement there is one issue that has popped up. Since its so decentralized (not saying centralization would make it better) anyone can join the movement and claim themselves as MGTOW. If say a lot of people join the movement who agree with Monk mode only (maybe because they are bitter from their experiences with American women and think they represent all women which is a common thing I've come of cross) then that becomes the de facto stance. After a while all the previous valid stances ( married MGTOW or only dating MGTOW) become shouted down as not really MGTOW or the stance of only blue pilled cucks (Believe me, I've heard it before). I think this might be the crux of the disagreement. Matty might be talking about the more present day version of MGTOW and Yohan is probably talking about how mainstream MGTOW thought used to be which was more center on self actualization. Mind you this is why a lot of the older MGTOWs who don't call themselves that anymore ended up leaving the movement because it turned from self actualization with a bit of things about western females to totally blaming females for everything (I heard this ad naseum 90% of the time in that famous MGTOW server and in the content I watched) and saying western women = women everywhere.

Its all kind of sad because the kind of MGTOW movement Yohan describes sounds a lot more balanced and self actualized than what you find today. Present day MGTOW content just sounds like endless complaining about women and almost zero talk about self actualization. Anyway, I feel like that might solve where the disagreement might be. Yohan is talking about what MGTOW was as a movement and Matty is talking about what it has turned into. At least that is how I see it based on my research.
You got some things right, but some things not so right.....

First, MGTOW is not a movement. It is set of core beliefs and practices that break men from their social conditioning to be slaves to women, children, and the state. The reason you hear so much complaining about women is the de-conditioning process that is going against both gynocentric inculcation AND male biological disposition to give women a pass so men can advance their sexual strategies.

The sex doll theme is from Turd Flinging Monkey who gets paid to market them on his show. His advocacy for sex dolls is meant to both be funny, and to make women go insanely mad about it which they are. Very few men actually want sex dolls, but to put out that they are actually better than real women is a blow to the female ego. This is why the dolls are such a prominent theme.

MGTOW is fundamentally anti-marriage because of the extreme control it exerts against men. However, who am I to say that a MGTOW who goes abroad to pair-bond (ie marry) in a traditional society is not also MGTOW so long as he lives his life in a red pill manner? What is to say that legally separated men who still pay child support can't be MGTOW so long as they are working for the day when they unplug? I could rant about how unmarried MGTOW with debt and mortgages are not really MGTOW because they are stuck in the rat race and that only debt-free men can be MGTOW. That would be foolish of me because life is a set of stages and choices that men are working through. If a man chooses to be married outside of the West while Red Pill, it means he is realistic about what could happen, has taken precautions and he understands female nature more than most men. A man married in the West to a Western woman is too far afield to be living a MGTOW life however. He might later.

Most MGTOW love to date women and we do it quite a lot. Just because there are a few who have no desire for women any longer does not make celibacy a part of MGTOW. That is a myth advanced by feminists, men (usually married cucks) who wish to discredit MGTOW, or Incels who have gravitated over to MGTOW from the True Forced Loneliness camp.

I consider myself a "blood red pill" MGTOW because I can pick up and leave to move to the next country when I please. I date who I please. I generally do what I please, when I please, how I please without limitation from the state, marriage, a woman or otherwise. That is a true MGTOW life. Might I decide to sire a child? Probably not, but if I met a girl with an IQ above 160, I might consider it just to have a worthy spot to leave my wealth and wisdom after I die. If that does not happen, I really do not care. I have a will and my kitty will go to two men's organizations and my brother. So I'll just continue living life as a permanent vacation. This is MGTOW and I have been an active MGTOW for well over a decade now.

One final thing you need to keep in mind when viewing MGTOW content is that those content creators are simply expressing what MGTOW means for THEM ONLY, not in general. They are giving you THEIR OWN interpretation of MGTOW and hoping you co-sign. But an individualistic lifestyle like MGTOW is inclusive by definition. MGTOW come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and we are not struck from the same stone nor do we want to be.
I will say, what you and Yohan say I can get behind. Even some of the guys who were MGTOWs from when it were barely known have still kept what it originally meant though I have read of a few who have dropped it due to what I mentioned above. The problem I see with the current version which is what I experienced hanging out with 100s of guys who call themselves present day MGTOWs, some who've been that way for years though I don't know if any of them have been there since before it was barely known, is even though MGTOW itself in its original forum isn't ideological I do feel like the present day ones are trying to make it that way. Obviously, they don't have the power to dictate to other guys what MGTOW is I am starting to see them really drift away from what you and Yohan have described. Its like too many of them are starting to add all these new tenets which I feel like is starting to make it less of your own way like you were refering to and starting to introduce the group think around certain areas. I wasn't kidding about what I said I heard straight from peoples mouths. From comments on content/forums, and like hundred plus people I heard in the discord I heard all this:

- A man can't be married (even to a foreign woman) and be MGTOW (this was specifically brought up once with unanimous agreement). Also, there was even a guy called Married MGTOW who got shouted down for not being a real MGTOW cause hes married to the point that even he accepts it.
- No cohabitation with a woman
- Quite a few saying Monk mode is the only way
- Literally, This conflation that Western women = all women (I might add that I'm pretty certain the majority guys haven't even left the country at all to even verify any of this. They just either hear horror stories and use them to justify their narrative about all women). This all goes with the whole AWALT that narrative which applies to even foreign women. For more on this, I direct you to:

https://www.mgtow.com/forums/topic/savi ... er-brides/

Once again I agree with what you and Yohan said and would be more than willing to join such a thing but I feel like the present day movement is going kind of off track. I do feel like, particularly in the US, this is because they are making too many counter moves based on what feminist are doing to the laws. Too many are trying to define the movement based on what feminist are doing which I think is a very big error. "Oh, feminist lobbies are pushing more strong rape/sexual assault laws, guess going monk mode is the only way to be a true MGTOW now and we better shout down any MGTOW who disagrees until they leave the movement (seen this myself). I think that last part might be where Matty might have come to the conclusion that they are starting use the same tactics as feminist which I think is bad. Can you answer me something because I am actually curious? Obviously MGTOW is something that is different to different men but essentially its about finding your own way and not being controlled by some over arching system correct? Do correct me if I'm wrong, I'm genuinley trying to understand things here as to the proper way the more older MGTOWs earlier in the day defined it because I've only read more about the earlier days and know more about how present day MGTOWs beliefs which seem to keep trying to "add" stuff to it. Thanks in advance and I do enjoy this conversation from someone who's probably been more familiar with it for longer from back in the day.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » June 28th, 2018, 9:25 am

DarthXedonias wrote: - A man can't be married (even to a foreign woman) and be MGTOW (this was specifically brought up once with unanimous agreement). Also, there was even a guy called Married MGTOW who got shouted down for not being a real MGTOW cause hes married to the point that even he accepts it.
I do believe that men SHOULD not marry, MGTOW or not. Marriage is a purposeful restraint on men's freedom and it is an unnecessary intrusion of state power into the personal life of a man. Men get married because they are manipulated by religious faith and/or romanticism designed to entrap men into a life of servitude. Whether a married man is MGTOW or not is a separate question, but I am opposed to it on a philosophical level.
DarthXedonias wrote: - No cohabitation with a woman
I also agree that men should never permit a woman to live with him. Doing so simply invites the woman to have a parasitic relationship with him and she can exert undue control over a man and his choices. Also, women who live with men are the ones who begin to intertwine resources that make breaking up a huge legal toil. Who will take the dog if they break up? Who will pay to break the lease? Who will take the profits from selling the house. Whose household items are whose? If a woman lives with you, her claws are well into you and in the West, a malicious call to the police can leave you locked out of your own residence.
DarthXedonias wrote: - Quite a few saying Monk mode is the only way
Monk mode is an individual choice that is not innately MGTOW at all. It works for some, but not for most.
DarthXedonias wrote: This conflation that Western women = all women (I might add that I'm pretty certain the majority guys haven't even left the country at all to even verify any of this. They just either hear horror stories and use them to justify their narrative about all women). This all goes with the whole AWALT that narrative which applies to even foreign women. For more on this, I direct you to:
I do subscribe to the red pill notion of female nature; in other words, all women are like that or have the potential to be like that. Western women are simply the most empowered by law and culture to impose their will. As someone who has lived all around the world, I can tell you that women are programmed by their very nature to try to extract as much resources from a man that she can. Most women around the world do it by guile, subtle manipulation, and charm. Western women are more apt to use the state as a forceful proxy for their resource grabs.

Bottom line is that all men are somewhere on the continuum of life lessons. MGTOW represents a skipping over of the male pitfalls stages the easy way early as opposed to suffering the hard way later on. Some men need to learn the hard way. Anthony Bourdain comes to mind here.

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Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by DarthXedonias » June 29th, 2018, 4:47 am

Contrarian Expat- Thanks for the info, especially the last part. I do ascribe to some of the Redpill stuff as well. I think I pointed this out that the real reason why Western women are able to act the way they act is because they can use the government as a proxy. They also by the laws can get rewards for bad behavior, like when she divorces a man for no good reason or can just accuse him of shit. Also, not sure if you heard but TFM did get banned on Twitch, which I think is very telling and gives you even more reason to leave the US at this point. They don't give a f**k about so called free speech anymore. They subvert it now with the idea of banning "hateful" content or "hate speech" which essentially means anything that hurts a particular groups "feel feels". In this case its a group of woman or white knights being offended by MGTOW content lol. If people still haven't realized that this fight to "save" America (from itself I might add) is pointless at this point, I don't know what to tell them. Should just save their energy and move somewhere else to their liking. Granted I'm talking in general, I know MGTOWs don't believe in that sort of thing really.

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