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Question about the 'you create your reality' principle

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Winston
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Question about the 'you create your reality' principle

Post by Winston » May 23rd, 2009, 3:03 pm

I have a question that I can't seem to get a good answer to.

You know how these New Agers believe that "thoughts create reality" and how the Holographic Universe theorists say that there is no objective reality and that everything is created by the mind, supported by many discoveries in quantum physics? Hippies are also fond of saying "You create your own reality" too.

Ok well if that's so, then why is it that I can put a blue table in the middle of a room full of people and tell them all that it's a yellow table, yet they'll all still unanimously see a blue table? Isn't that obvious proof of an objective reality? Or an objective existence of material objects at least?

They also seem to say that whatever you think, happens, and that whatever happens to you happens as a result of your expectations and thoughts. But if that's so, then how come we can't fly or walk through walls? How come the Titanic sunk even though everyone "thought" it was unsinkable?

Hippies and New Agers respond to this by saying that our thoughts aren't powerful enough to allow us to fly or walk through walls. But isn't that a copout, since no one has demonstrated that their thoughts can allow them to fly and walk through walls? And also, if our thoughts aren't that powerful then why do they talk about it as though all our reality were created by our thoughts? They can't have it both ways.

Also, New Age gurus like Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra, and films like "What the bleep do we know" and "The Secret" make it sound as if thoughts were ALL POWERFUL and could do anything.

One thing that ticks me is that they never DEFINE the exact limitations or degree of power that "thoughts" have. Dean Radin and psi researchers say that it's only been proven that thoughts have a microscopic effect on outcomes, such as in PEAR's random number generator experiments, or Ganzfeld's telepathy experiments.

Ok so they've defined it as miniscule but statistically significant to show a real effect. So if it's miniscule then why do Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra and other New Age gurus claim that thoughts are all powerful and that you create your own reality, as though it were Gospel Truth, as though thoughts were all powerful and limitless and that if you don't believe this, then you only have yourself to blame?

Are they BSing to sell books? Do they know it? And why is it that only the middle class and above folks tend to believe that their thoughts created their reality, and not the poor folks? Is it because the rich like to take credit for their status, so the idea that their thoughts created their reality sounds appealing to them? And the poor are more practical and see it as BS (since if their thoughts really controlled reality then they wouldn't be poor).

I have read the whole book "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, and it does contain a lot of great theories, quantum physics discoveries and examples that are interesting and make sense. But it never answers these questions, such as the blue table example above. And New Agers and hippies tend to issue cop out answers like "our thoughts aren't powerful enough yet", but if that's so, then how can they be creating our reality? They can't have it both ways.

What do you think?

There are discoveries in quantum physics, such as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, that indicate that reality may be an illusion. But if that's so, then how come everyone can see the blue table in the middle of the room unanimously? If I drive a red sports car, everyone will see the same thing, regardless of my beliefs or their beliefs. They may like or dislike the red car but they will see the same physical image nevertheless.

So how does the universe being an illusion or a projection of our thoughts explain that?

I can't get a clear answer to this. Can anyone help? Thanks.
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V
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Re: Question about the 'you create your reality' principle

Post by V » May 23rd, 2009, 7:11 pm

Hey, Winston.

By the way, you go by Vinstonas, but you are also Winston, right? (Just checking)

I like how you question everything -- not just about being "happier abroad," but everything in life. I'm the same way. The only way for a man to be free is to question.

Regarding reality, it is objective, not subjective.

Hippies and others who claim they can create reality or that reality is subjective are just ... wrong.

People once thought the Earth was flat, too ... but they were wrong.

Here's a good experiment to try.

Next time someone tells you that reality is subjective, ask them if their brain creates reality. They should say yes, since this is their argument. Then ask if their brain exists. They should say yes. Then ask them if the existence of their brain is part of reality. They should say yes. Then ask them if the existence of their brain is objective or subjective. In other words, if your brain tells you that their brain does not exist, does that mean their brain no longer exists? Is the existence of their brain (which is part of realty) dependent upon what you or someone else thinks? Or, is the existence of their brain *independent* of what anyone else's brain might think (like the Earth being flat).

Ultimately, anyone who thinks reality, as a whole, is subjective is making an error in logic somewhere.
Vinstonas wrote:
... why is it that I can put a blue table in the middle of a room full of people and tell them all that it's a yellow table, yet they'll all still unanimously see a blue table? Isn't that obvious proof of an objective reality?
Yes, it is.
They also seem to say that whatever you think, happens, and that whatever happens to you happens as a result of your expectations and thoughts. But if that's so, then how come we can't fly or walk through walls? How come the Titanic sunk even though everyone "thought" it was unsinkable?
Because people who say they can think their way to "creating reality" are wrong. You are right.
Hippies and New Agers respond to this by saying that our thoughts aren't powerful enough to allow us to fly or walk through walls. But isn't that a copout,...
Yes, it is. Just ask them to prove it. They will either be silent or come up with BS. Some people just say this crap because they think it is interesting to think about, like a science fiction book or movie. But those who really do think like this are extremely deluded people. I usually walk the other way if I find out they really are this distanced from reality.
One thing that ticks me is that they never DEFINE the exact limitations or degree of power that "thoughts" have.
The bottom line is they never define the terms they are using. This is referred to as "floating abstractions." They come up with an abstract idea, without defining it clearly, and then when pressed to explain or prove their point, their ideas magically transform into something else that they also don't define, but they pretend explains their position more clearly.
Ok so they've defined it as miniscule but statistically significant to show a real effect. So if it's miniscule then why do Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra and other New Age gurus claim that thoughts are all powerful and that you create your own reality, as though it were Gospel Truth, as though thoughts were all powerful and limitless and that if you don't believe this, then you only have yourself to blame?
Thoughts are powerful. Absolutely. They can cause one man to go to war for the benefit of another man and to the detriment of himself ("nationalism"). They can cause one man agree to be enslaved by another man and believe it is good ("taxation"). Thoughts are extremely powerful in human action. But thoughts do not create reality itself. They do not turn a blue table into a yellow table through thoughts alone, but they can motive a human to take action, get some yellow paint, and turn the blue table into a yellow one by painting it.

Another important point is that thoughts are the means for some humans to control other humans. Selling books is a motive. Getting speaking gigs and not having to dig ditches for a living is a motive. Gaining political power is a motive. Lots of motives for people to come up with all sorts of bullshit and see if other people will buy it.
There are discoveries in quantum physics, such as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, that indicate that reality may be an illusion.
It is a logical fallacy to observe the behavior of very small matter and then extrapolate that into a theory for all matter.

momopi
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Re: Question about the 'you create your reality' principle

Post by momopi » May 24th, 2009, 7:17 am

Wishing a blue table would turn yellow is not going to change the color.

Where thoughts turn into realities,

Positive thinking reflected in the person's body language, speech pattern, attitude, etc. that makes him/her more appealing to others. Sales people utilize this to improve their sales.

Placebo effect: works like chicken soup. You feel better, you get better.

V
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Re: Question about the 'you create your reality' principle

Post by V » May 24th, 2009, 7:56 pm

momopi wrote:Wishing a blue table would turn yellow is not going to change the color.

Where thoughts turn into realities,

Positive thinking reflected in the person's body language, speech pattern, attitude, etc. that makes him/her more appealing to others. Sales people utilize this to improve their sales.

Placebo effect: works like chicken soup. You feel better, you get better.
The reason the blue table does not turn yellow is because matter does not change in response to someone's thoughts.

Humans, on the other hand, are biological creatures, and we live primarily by using our brains. We have a thought, and that thought will determine our action(s). Taking one action instead of a different one can lead to different outcomes. That is the nature of human beings.

However, that is not the same discussion as the nature of reality itself (objective or subjective). It is the nature of humans, but not reality as a whole.

Using the word "reality" (or "realities") to mean an individual's life experiences is not what is meant in the philosophical context. From a philosophical context, "reality" means all that exists. You cannot examine the nature of humans and then extrapolate that to reality as a whole.

I realize people often use the word "reality" to mean personal experiences (my reality, your reality, create your own reality, etc.), but these are not the correct usage of the word in a philosophical context.

"All that exists" is what is meant by "reality" when the topic is whether reality, as such, is objective or subjective.

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Re: Question about the 'you create your reality' principle

Post by Winston » May 26th, 2009, 2:09 am

V wrote:
momopi wrote:Wishing a blue table would turn yellow is not going to change the color.

Where thoughts turn into realities,

Positive thinking reflected in the person's body language, speech pattern, attitude, etc. that makes him/her more appealing to others. Sales people utilize this to improve their sales.

Placebo effect: works like chicken soup. You feel better, you get better.
The reason the blue table does not turn yellow is because matter does not change in response to someone's thoughts.

Humans, on the other hand, are biological creatures, and we live primarily by using our brains. We have a thought, and that thought will determine our action(s). Taking one action instead of a different one can lead to different outcomes. That is the nature of human beings.

However, that is not the same discussion as the nature of reality itself (objective or subjective). It is the nature of humans, but not reality as a whole.

Using the word "reality" (or "realities") to mean an individual's life experiences is not what is meant in the philosophical context. From a philosophical context, "reality" means all that exists. You cannot examine the nature of humans and then extrapolate that to reality as a whole.

I realize people often use the word "reality" to mean personal experiences (my reality, your reality, create your own reality, etc.), but these are not the correct usage of the word in a philosophical context.

"All that exists" is what is meant by "reality" when the topic is whether reality, as such, is objective or subjective.
W: Theoretically, collective thoughts of many people can have an effect on matter. A single individual doesn't, unless his/her mind is aligned with the "universal consciousness" that we are a part of. This is why some people's prayers are almost always answered or answered more frequently, because their will and prayer is aligned with God's or the universal consciousness'.

Check out what these experts and physicists say about matter being ultimately an illusion. It's very very fascinating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZj9Qps8H6M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edryg3JYKsw
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