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Discuss culture, living, traveling, relocating, dating or anything related to the European Countries.
This is my first new topic post, so a little introduction is probably due. My name is Vanni, I'm a 37 years old Italian man living in London UK. I have just registered on the forum a few days ago, after digging through some of the Winston-philosophy (not without some degree of due criticism, which I conveyed to him on private e-mail). I think this forum is an interesting place to share information and opinions on social interaction across different cultures, of which dating is but one of the many expressions. I am (happily!) married and have been off the single dating scene for a good three years, nonetheless I'm still curious to share my memories, absorb your views and learn from your experiences.
I didn't have the time to catch up with old posts so I don't know if this has been posted and discussed before. Just out of my own experience and curiosity: have any of you guys thought of using one of the major European multi-cultural hubs as a platform for international dating, let alone work and life?
I mean take London for example: I have lived here since 1998, apart from a 4-year hyatus in Milan Italy, and then back to UK (Cambridge, and then London again since late 2006). Have you guys thought of the immense International Dating opportunities found in a place like this?
Reason I'm asking is because, excluding my years back in Italy where hometown girls were the only option, I cannot forget that my dating life found another paradigm, another dimension the moment I set foot in London. From that 20 September 1998, I started to befriend with young people of virtually any culture and nationality on the planet. And if that wasn't beautiful and stimulating enough, I dated girls from: Japan, mainland China, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, India, the Philippines, Thailand, South Korea, Vietnam and Burma. And that's only mentioning the Asian ones. Now, this is not to show off or imply that I was a womanizer of some sort: I was just a young, Italian Masters student, the social equivalent of a boy on his first time in a candy shop, and I was overly keen to explore.
At the cost of stating the obvious: I didn't have to spend money traveling, all the women were here, readily available in places ranging from student libraries to local cafes and discos, cheap cultural events and even bookshops. I didn't have to make any particular effort in filtering out what you often call the "dumb", or more traditional ones, as most of the girls living here, for study of work, were a cross-sample of the middle or upper class from a given nationality. As such, most of them already spoke some English already, but were also more cultured, educated and open-minded than their average counterparts at home. And, what's most important, very few were under their families' supervision and could taste, first time for many of them, a relatively free and liberated life.
A cute if not crude anecdote I like to remember as quite symbolic: one of my first date in London was a very cute 19 years old girl from Taiwan. We had been out and, as a joke, I bought her the infamous "Good girls go to Heaven, bad girls go to London" t-shirt, which she wore as a pijama top when we went to bed. We had sex and I didn't know she was a virgin. She giggled looking at a few drips of her blood staining the bottom edge of the t-shirt. "Bad girls go to London...and f**k Italian boys", she said, with not a hint of regret.
I was 23 when I came to London, and London was a while hole of dense cultural matter, all collapsed in one tiny spot in South East Britain. To some extent, it still is. The current financial crisis has done nothing but making London more affordable to the creme de-la creme of Asia. And from what I could see looking at the latest cohorts of student flooding London universities, a good 45% are girls anyway.
So...wouldn't just come to a place like London (but I guess Paris, Madrid and even Milan to some extent would do as well) solve at least some of the all of the dating dilemmas you guys are facing: finding girls from a variety of cultures, without having to spend a fortune travelling around Asia, not having to find a less simple-minded, less traditional girl like a needle in a haystack, having less cultural and language barriers as most of them are comfortable with English. And hey, added bonus of living in one of the most vibrant cities in the world.
I would love your feedback on this.
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Thanks for the info Vanni, I never really thought about London as a destination to meet a variety of foreign women. It does make sense to check it out as opposed to traveling to different countries and spending a lot of money on airfare and hotels, etc. Just go to one city (London) and meet a lot of women from all over the world. As an added bonus, the girls will probably speak some english.
On the other hand, from what guys have said who have visited the UK is that the women who grow up in the UK are just as unfriendly and anti-social as American women are. But, if you just want to meet foreign women, just avoid the native UK women and focus on meeting foreign women.
I do want to visit London in the near future, there is a great deal of historical places to visit and while I am there I might meet some nice foreign girls!
"When I think about the idea of getting involved with an American woman, I don't know if I should laugh .............. or vomit!"
"Trying to meet women in America is like trying to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics."
Thanks for the feedback JB.
Well I wouldn't say UK girls are unfriendly, I have read some other posts and still confused why you bundle American and UK girls in this "Anglosphere" concept. The problem about London is that we have two types of girls, native or not doesn't matter: those who have relatively laid back jobs and haven't joined what we call the "rat race" (higher rungs on the career ladder, better salary, bigger mortgage, etc.), and those who have. The former camp is where you find the friendlier, warmer ladies. They will easily sit down with you, talk to you, spend time in conversations and can be asked out quite easily. The latter camp is a very different situation, it's basically workaholic ladies who do almost everything with social and/or professional promotion in mind. These girls usually end up burnt out in their mid-thirties, a failed marriage, one, maybe two kids and this magnificent salary that's only good to pay a baby sitter and get back roaming pubs and posh bars looking for another decent partner... On the good side we could say those high-fliers usually know how to take care of themselves and can look as hot as a teenager even in their mid-thirties.
There's actually another category of women: it's what we call "the slappers", only good for a one-night stand and some fun, nothing more. They tend to be less educated, single or separated moms on welfare, they are in their late twenties either look nor sound very attractive, unless you're on a few beers and both channels of your male organ need a visit to the toilets...
I used to live in South London and I wouldn't go back for any reason. Its really expensive, polluted, crowded, crime ridden, the economy is terrible, the weather sucks, the local women are very promiscuous and unattractive. Going to London to meet women is like going to a salvage yard to buy a car. True, there are lots of foreign women to meet if you can find one before the locals get their hands on them.
You probably lived in the wrong part of town and under very different personal conditions. I can't speak on that because I don't know what you went through. I started as a postgrad student and had the life of Riley dating-wise, and if I hadn't chosen to get married I would have still found enough foreign female material to keep my brains and my knob equally stimulated.
I'm sure at least some of you would know how to come here and pick up a good enough job to provide for their bills as well as their social life. Then the fun begins.
You know what? I lived in central London for over 2 years and got nothing. But your post has changed my whole perspective. I really didn't spent any time hunting. I was overwhelmed with my study and work life. I made a few half-hearted attempts to meet local girls from dating sites but got nowhere and gave-up fast. My biz-school was over 75% male and the most of the girls there were not attractive prospects. I also tried to chat-up a Japanese girl on the Underground once and she promptly got-up and moved to the other side of the car, lol.
But if someone who had sufficient free time were to scour the unis in London and other popular cities for lonely and lost foreign students and actively approach them, I believe they could do very well with minimal financial investment.
Taiwan girls are probably great targets. They tend to come to Europe in smaller numbers and many are less connected to their national group. A lot of them also buy into the romantic stereotype of Italians, French, and Spaniards. When I was in London, I knew a free spirited Taiwanese girl who lived in Paris. She told me that a lot of Taiwan girls who came there as inexperienced innocent types, some virgins, would often end-up hooking up with local guys and screwing around.
If someone is willing to pay a bit, there are also a lot of hot Africans around and about in London. Who knows, maybe you could pull freebies with some of them.
Wow that's interesting! To be a student in London for 2 years and not to find a single date, even a simple one-night stand, you must have been pretty much caged in your dorm room when not going to a class LOL! No jokes apart, which business school did you go? Any British university usually has a dedicated student bar and plenty of social opportunities to mingle with students. Non students (girls and boys) regularly crash the events, so there's always a healthy mix of outsiders and students, which opens up doors for people who are in London as tourists or for work. Even just sticking to that once a week would be excellent starting point to get a circle of "mates" and start hitting on some of the ladies. And if you don't fancy the ladies there's always the ladies' flatmates, or friends, etc.
The Masters I am talking about was an internet Engineering related one, back in 1998, and it was surprisigly balanced in terms of Brits vs non-Brits and males vs females. Most non-EU students came from Asia: India, Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China. Go figure
Taiwanese are one of the targets, but neither the only one, nor the best one. Indian girls tend to be much more conservative on whom they date and fall in love with, as some of them may have arranged marriages waiting for them at home. That was the case for the two Indian female classmates. Apart from university life, the entire cafe culture that started around 1995 pretty much changed the face of relaxed, informal and non-evening social interaction. I still remember having phone numbers from the Caffe Nero, Costa or Starbucks cute baristas right on the back of their loyalty cards (you knows, the stamped ones, buy 9 get 1 free).
All in all, like in any other social context, it's good to be yourself and not place too high expectations on what can come after the chat, or the first date, or dinner. I have kissed my date on a concert and had the wildest sex with a complete stranger a few hours later, for the only reason she stood next to me and I started snogging her while a post-romantic song (Sexy Boy, Air) was being performed. Student life, and London dating probably works its best when a certain degree of randomness is taken into account. That's why is probably more important to have a circle of mates to use as a base camp, and try to invite and be invited to as many parties as possible.
Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "if someone is willing to pay a bit". The entire scene is NO-PAY! The only time one needs to hit the purse is to buy drinks, although soon enough one learns to serve themselves and the party crowd at the local 24/7 supermarket, rather than a posh bar.
I guess you're far from London, but hopefully this could be useful information for those who want to dare the student/dating scene in the near future.
I went to London to get a practical degree and secure a high paying job ASAP. All my hours were filled with classes, case studies, company presentations, part-time practical work, interviews, and some stints of work-study in other countries. So my focus was not partying and apparently I missed out on the scene you have outlined. Most people in my school were intensely goal driven. But there were a couple of guys who played hard during their first year. Both failed their second year qualifiers and got kicked-out. So I don't regret my actions there. I more than made-up for it later.
I realize you are not referring to P4P but rather seducing foreign students. But I believe a lot of the hot Africans you see around town are a bit different even though I never approached any of them. If they are not students, chances are, they need money. Sure, if you're smooth or good looking enough, you could probably date some of them without paying anything. There's another poster who goes all over the world who claims that he doesn't pay, even in Africa. But even he acknowledges that the default tendency with such girls is that the man helps-out.
Yes, the info is useful and a breath of fresh air. Because I think if someone applied a targeted strategy and got to know a lot of foreign students there, they might achieve some great results w/out the inherent problems of international travel - hotel and air costs, culture clashes, language and food issues, etc. It sure sound a lot better than the PUAs who stand in high traffic areas and just approach random strangers.
I used to live in West London, by Heathrow, and its a shit hole too. The only advantage I can see in meeting women in London is the cheap airfare, everything else in England is very expensive. A quarter pounder meal at McDonalds is about $20 US and you have to pay extra for all the ketchup and napkins.
I understand, I guess you were doing an MBA, a pretty demanding course that really ends up filling all of your non-lecture time with endless essays, team projects, etc. Thanks God we had limited exposure to that in my first Masters.
Also I think it's fair to mention that the choice of university where you're taking your course probably is a big factor in what kind of "social kickstart" you get. Mine was at University College London, UCL, which I soon learned is one of the best London institution where even the student entertainment program is done seriously, and I found a very good mix of non-EU, EU and British students. Needless to say, I was definitely more interesting in mingling with people who could give me a taste of a different culture, especially one that at the time I perceived as "exotic", such as any Asian, or South Africa, etc. I honestly only dated three "British" girls in my entire life, and two of them were from different ancestries anyway (Caribbean and Polish/Irish). If my main target had been one-night stands with no further communication, Brit girls met in clubs would have probably been my main targets.
Let me re-iterate here: I never meant to look for pay-for-sex girls. I wasn't bad looking, most Asian girls would fall for me saying I look like a "young Nicholas Cage" (who I personally hate, as an actor!), but I never imagined I had to resort to pay a lady for what I could easily get for free. Even if a girl had asked me for money or financial support, there wouldn't have been much for me to do, as I was pretty pennyless at the time. I mean I did help a couple of girls letting them crash on the sofas for even a couple of weeks, until their hardship situation eased, but to be fair I did the same with male friends. Just basic solidarity rules among young penniless students...
Ouch, did you use to get your McDonalds meal at Heathrow airport? I very rarely walk into a McDonalds but last time I checked a burger + fries + drink combo was something around Â£5.95. True the USD/GBP exchange was at almost 2.0 at one point, but even that would only make $10 USD.
What were you doing in London? Studying, or working? Perhaps you were too busy working and sorting out your personal business to think about dating. I admit it takes a very relaxed approach to life to be able to mingle with people, party or club at least once a week, etc. Students can pull that kind of lifestyle quite easily...
Well comparing with the idea of living and adapting to a exotic and less-developed culture such as life in a mid-size town in the Philippines, it would sound easier, yes. My main argument is the variety of women and social interaction situation one can find, especially if included in some sort of student-like social circle, without having to sacrifice much of the comforts of Western life.
Sure, life in London is more expensive, but if you're qualified you can get a well paid job relatively easy. A good junior .NET developer in the London area can fetch Â£30K/Â£35K, maybe more if he works in investment banking. If he doesn't mind sharing a nice apartment, he will have a large shared lounge to dine with his/her flatmates and a large bedroom where to exercise all the privacy he/she wants. Plus, unlike the US, we get 25 days or paid holiday, unlimited sick pay, public healthcare is acceptable, etc.
Congrats on your international dating success in London of all places. There are a number of things you have going for you though that gives you a significant edge. You're italian. I'd say if there were the top 4 ethnicities that women around the world almost universally love it would be Italian, Argentinian, Spanish, Scandinavians with strong nordic features.) Well then again classifying "Scandinavian" as an ethnicity is playing a bit loose with the definition but my point remains.
That's not to say other ethnicities couldn't get lucky there as well but it's much more difficult i'd say which is why the U.K. is considered challenging for most of us.
Thanks Repatriate, but I didn't want to imply that my "success story" is due to me being superior to anybody else on any aspect. You think it's because I'm Italian? Maybe the stereotype of Italian = pullers worked out a little bit, but it's just a stereotype. The point I was trying to make is that the conditions look ideal: variety of women, pre-filtered, living conditions that are conducive to social and sexual freedom, if not promiscuity in some cases.
Why are you guys convinced ethnicity, ie. looks, play such a big part? I still remember some of the best ladies' boys in my years: it wasn't me, but it did include Ekapot a Thai guy, Rasheev an Indian guy, and a Singaporean guy I don't remember.
Don't know...maybe one of the things that did play in my favour was that I was 23/24 and used to date undegrads (17-21) as well, who probably saw me as a more mature person. I can ensure you that I could pass as cute, and I was surely much fitter than now, but was never a stud or a stunner.