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Why do social groups and middle class people shun me?

Discuss personal development, self-improvement and psychology.

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Winston
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Post by Winston » November 10th, 2012, 6:50 pm

Ok here is another question that gets to the heart of the matter.

What makes someone a misfit exactly? What is the root cause for someone becoming a misfit? Why does one person become a misfit but not another? Is there a definable cause, or is it something beyond words and logic?
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Post by Ginger » November 10th, 2012, 6:57 pm

:)
Last edited by Ginger on July 14th, 2013, 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lavezzi » November 10th, 2012, 7:27 pm

Winston wrote:Ok here is another question that gets to the heart of the matter.

What makes someone a misfit exactly? What is the root cause for someone becoming a misfit? Why does one person become a misfit but not another? Is there a definable cause, or is it something beyond words and logic?


humans (both "misfits" or not) are vain conformists in most cases. they seek their own involuntarily self imposed need for validation in others on a constant basis. a person either perceives they they have found validation in their immediate surroundings, or does not and labels themselves as a misfit or a non conformist etc. and identifies with the terms in order to make themselves feel better about their situation. if you do not fit into what you perceive to be the mainstream, do not attempt to fit into what you perceive to be the non mainstream. this is the exact same thing only you conceive of it differently in your own mind. either you live in reality where there is no need for validation from the outside world or you don't, these are the only two camps, and if you live in the first one you do not believe in the concept of a camp but only use it as figurative language to use as a means to help others to see the truth for themselves.
Last edited by lavezzi on November 10th, 2012, 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Jester » November 10th, 2012, 7:29 pm

Ginger wrote:
Winston wrote:Ok here is another question that gets to the heart of the matter.

What makes someone a misfit exactly? What is the root cause for someone becoming a misfit? Why does one person become a misfit but not another? Is there a definable cause, or is it something beyond words and logic?
beyond words and logic, think time space warp meets inter-dimensional thingy
+1

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Winston
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Post by Winston » January 2nd, 2013, 9:31 pm

I just realized something.

I don't think that most people in social cliques do anything special to get in there, at least not in Asia. Some people are just group-oriented types, not individualistic, so they naturally fit into a group without even trying. To them, fitting into a group or clique isn't something they have to figure out. It is part of their nature. Am I right?

Here in East Asia, it does seem that people have no individuality. They think in groups, go out in groups, make friends in groups, etc. They can't think as an individual, or make friends as an individual. They have to do everything in groups.

So I guess some people are just group type people, while others are individualists who only have a few close friends, or many acquaintances?

What do you think?

I say this because I don't see people doing anything special to join a clique. There's no hazing ritual or tests to pass to prove yourself. It's not a fraternity. Some people just naturally gravitate toward a clique because they are "group" type people. Am I right?

Others, like us individualists, will try and try, yet we will never fit into a clique, at least not most cliques. We can never figure it out, perhaps because we aren't group type of people?

What do you think?

What about you guys? Were any of you ever group types that fit in groups naturally? How did you do it? What was it like? Did it feel happy to belong to a clique? Was it as fun as shown in the sitcom "Friends" long ago? Was there any real camaraderie?

Do you guys ever feel like losers for not fitting into a regular group or clique, like "cool" people do, so that you can always be invited to parties, concerts and events, where hot girls know you on a first name basis? Do you ever feel left out? Do you ever feel lost and wish you belonged to something?

The only one I know here that fits into groups and cliques would probably be Momopi. He talks about the "in crowd" as though he used to be part of one. At least he understands the scene that the "cool crowd" is a part of. So he must have some experience with it.

However, Momopi is more conformist than most of you guys, even though he is really smart and has a lot of encyclopedic knowledge. But his smarts are different than ours. He doesn't have a "freethinking" type of intelligence, but more of a memorization/calculated conformity type of smarts. I notice that he doesn't ask questions or question things, so I guess he's not a truth seeker type. More of a practical conformist type, which is typical East Asian mentality. It would seem that he isn't one to think for himself, as he does not show signs of independent thinking, but is more of the type that memorizes data and conforms to whatever will give him an advantage toward his goals.

That's my assessment anyway, based on the things he says. Am I right Momopi? Momopi, what's your take on the above?
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Post by momopi » January 3rd, 2013, 2:39 am

Winston wrote:I say this because I don't see people doing anything special to join a clique.
You don't need to do anything special to fit in. Just some common sense like, being agreeable, cooperative ("team player"), be mindful of others, think before you speak, and seek positive in-group relationships.

To maintain positive group relationships in the long run, you'd need emotional intelligence to regulate your own disruptive emotions and impulses, empathy to perceive other people's feelings, and talent to manage/shape your relationship with others toward positive outcomes.

Emotional competencies will help you express your feelings and emotions in a positive way, to build better and closer relationships with the right people, rather than pushing them away with rants. When in a diverse group (or abroad), intercultural competence (3C) will help you to communicate successfully with people from other cultures. Correctly understanding different cultural norms, values, behaviors, identify, and shaping your relationships toward positive outcomes. Learn, do, not preach.

You cannot be neurotic (tendency toward negative emotions, anger, anxiety, depression) or emotionally unstable. If you cannot successfully manage/regulate your disruptive emotions and impulses, you will remain an "individualist" out of necessity and not choice. Choose your friends wisely, "酒肉朋友" (wine and meat friends) who are only there for wine/dine and debauchery, are selfish, fair-weathered, and will not be there for you in times of need.


Winston wrote: However, Momopi is more conformist than most of you guys, even though he is really smart and has a lot of encyclopedic knowledge. But his smarts are different than ours. He doesn't have a "freethinking" type of intelligence, but more of a memorization/calculated conformity type of smarts. I notice that he doesn't ask questions or question things, so I guess he's not a truth seeker type. More of a practical conformist type, which is typical East Asian mentality. It would seem that he isn't one to think for himself, as he does not show signs of independent thinking, but is more of the type that memorizes data and conforms to whatever will give him an advantage toward his goals.
That's my assessment anyway, based on the things he says. Am I right Momopi? Momopi, what's your take on the above?
...as previously stated, I'm a reactionary.

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Post by Winston » January 13th, 2013, 2:25 am

I was wondering something:

Is the reason we are all here because we all simply lack the ability to fit into groups? People who fit into groups well don't seem to complain about loneliness or social isolation right? They are the people you see always acting cheerful and positive, who never say anything taboo, unlike us.

They never seem to complain about strangers never talking to them, unlike us. Why is that? Is it because if you have a group of friends, then you don't need to talk to strangers?

Are we all simply people who don't know how to fit into groups? Is that what we all have in common? Is that our common denominator? Is that our problem? What do you think?

How are some people able to fit into groups so easily? Why are they different from us? Does that make them better or more normal than us?
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Post by Banano » January 13th, 2013, 2:59 am

Winston wrote:I was wondering something:

Is the reason we are all here because we all simply lack the ability to fit into groups? People who fit into groups well don't seem to complain about loneliness or social isolation right? They are the people you see always acting cheerful and positive, who never say anything taboo, unlike us.

They never seem to complain about strangers never talking to them, unlike us. Why is that? Is it because if you have a group of friends, then you don't need to talk to strangers?

Are we all simply people who don't know how to fit into groups? Is that what we all have in common? Is that our common denominator? Is that our problem? What do you think?

How are some people able to fit into groups so easily? Why are they different from us? Does that make them better or more normal than us?

Short answer YES,

people who are in groups and cliques dont need to talk to strangers, all upper class people in the west and middle class in 3rd world countries are cliquish and wouldnt want to meet strangers, what for anyway? They meet through friends and people in social circle..i dont think these guys are trying hard to belong somewhere, they naturaly fit in in a same way that you or we dont fit in...we dont try hard not to fit in, its who we are


as a loner, individual, isoleted guy you will always have need to connect and meet new people but its hard task as people
dont just meet people and take you on board, takes time, you need to click with them, pretending wont do, theres a lot of politics too, have to be team player

i think its hard to be team player if you are lone wolf and freethinker

Contrarian Expatriate
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Post by Contrarian Expatriate » January 13th, 2013, 9:34 am

Because you do not fit in, period.

Do you dress like them?
Do you look like them?
Do you behave like them?
Do you speak like them?
Do you socialize like them?

If not, you need to strive to do like them if you want to be accepted by them, it is only natural.

Also, middle class people are generally not considered intellectual by any means. They are educated, but not intellectual usually. Intellectuals tend to be esoteric and eccentric which is what you are.

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Post by Winston » January 13th, 2013, 12:00 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:Because you do not fit in, period.

Do you dress like them?
Do you look like them?
Do you behave like them?
Do you speak like them?
Do you socialize like them?

If not, you need to strive to do like them if you want to be accepted by them, it is only natural.

Also, middle class people are generally not considered intellectual by any means. They are educated, but not intellectual usually. Intellectuals tend to be esoteric and eccentric which is what you are.
Yes I look and dress like them. Anyone can see that. I don't dress like a rebel or hippie or wear goth clothing. lol

It's not a matter of looks. It's a matter of personality. Consider this. To fit into a typical group, you have to constantly exude the following traits:

- be positive and cheerful (never negative)
- be lighthearted (not deep, intense, serious or complex)
- say things that are politically correct and noncontroversial
- act superficially nice to blend in, even if it's fake

I don't think any of us here fit the above to the core, right? To fit into a group, you must project these traits constantly. Any of us here can mimick them for a while of course, or put on an act and be agreeable and pleasant in a group setting. But if it's not who we are deep down, we won't enjoy putting up the act for long. After a while you feel "ick!" Do you know what I mean?

Also, as Westerners we are more individualistic than Asians are. Isn't this why Asians fit into groups far more easily than Westerners do?

So is an intellectual higher in intelligence than a typical educated middle class person?
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Post by Winston » January 18th, 2013, 9:56 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:Because you do not fit in, period.

Do you dress like them?
Do you look like them?
Do you behave like them?
Do you speak like them?
Do you socialize like them?

If not, you need to strive to do like them if you want to be accepted by them, it is only natural.

Also, middle class people are generally not considered intellectual by any means. They are educated, but not intellectual usually. Intellectuals tend to be esoteric and eccentric which is what you are.
So I guess the only kind of group we fit into are groups of freethinkers right? Either that, or groups of really laid back nonjudgmental people, such as New Agers, simple minded primitive tribal people, or poor peasants in third world countries. lol

Anyway, I was thinking about what you said about educated vs. intellectual. You make a good point. There is a big difference between an intellectual and an educated person.

You see, an educated person is someone who has acquired knowledge through the establishment system, but just enough to hold a job, raise a family, talk about current events, and fit into the community. But an intellectual is someone who seeks deeper or alternative knowledge and understanding, which society considers "superfluous" and unnecessary, because society prefers that you only learn what you need to know to get a job and hold onto it. This is why the major media doesn't talk about anything intellectual. Most of the news it reports pertains to jobs, employment rates, and economic news.

So an intellectual is interested in knowledge beyond what an educated person needs to hold down a job, which includes: conspiracies, spirituality, metaphysics, philosophy, parapsychology, and esoteric subjects. Thus an intellectual's life is far more complicated than a mere educated person's, right?

An educated person accepts what they've been taught as fact. An intellectual questions it and uses critical thinking.

An intellectual will be more enlightened by truth and knowledge, and have a richer inner life. But there is a downside. He/She will become eccentric, not fit in with most people, and his/her brain will always be thinking and never resting. An intellectual thinks too much, and always asks "What if..."

One thing I've noticed is that the more you think, the more pessimistic and negative you become. Have you ever noticed that? Why is that? Why isn't it that the more you think, the more positive and optimistic you become? Many great thinkers have become cynical and hold pessimistic views. Examples: Mark Twain, Arthur Schopenhauer, George Bernard Shaw, etc.

However, English-Chinese dictionaries define an intellectual as "someone who is very intelligent" because there is no exact word for intellectual in Chinese. I guess the establishment doesn't want Chinese people to understand the concept of thinking outside the box or seeking alternative information. lol
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Post by ladislav » January 18th, 2013, 10:46 pm

I grew up in a small New England town where I was persecuted by the local yokels because my family didn't have roots that went back at least four generations in the little hick town. I am and was a good looking, tall, personable (perhaps a tad shy), polite young man, and also a white guy growing up in a 99% white town
How did they persecute you?
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Post by Contrarian Expatriate » January 19th, 2013, 12:09 am

Winston wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that the more you think, the more pessimistic and negative you become. Have you ever noticed that? Why is that? Why isn't it that the more you think, the more positive and optimistic you become?
Correct. I think the saying, "Ignorance is bliss" represents that fact well.

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Post by pete98146 » January 19th, 2013, 12:19 am

Interesting question and comments. I'd venture to say most here are lone wolf types and there is nothing wrong with being one. Only problem is that it's MUCH more difficult to meet women. If you ONLY shot at meeting a woman is using the Cold Approach than somethings wrong big time!!!! To add insult to injury, what happens if you meet a girl and she IS a group type person. All of a sudden she's asking you to hang out and party with her group and if this makes you uncomfortable she'll likely end up dumping you because you don't fit into "her world." So the best you can hope for is to find a like minded woman and ultra independant women are difficult to find.

I do think having a family naturally solves this problem because once you have kids, you have created the ultimate form of a group.

I myself are a bit of a tweener when it comes to being comfortable in a group. I'm a bit of a lone wolf too. My Scandinavian blood dictates type B quietness and ability to be alone without being bored. But I do group activities as a result of me loving sports and if I were single, it would allow me the opportunity to date women fairly easily.

So that's my long winded way of saying that you should be balanced. Spend equal amount of time with yourself AND socialize in groups. Groups are much more fun and bearable when everybody in the group shares a similar passion.

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