Goal orientation vs. surfing the flow

[Cornfed]

Young men are often advised to be goal oriented. This advice clearly made sense in the period between 1950-1980 and for some reason lots of people insist on pretending we are still living in those times. Goal orientation works when the future is largely predictable and the individual has sufficient power to achieve most goals. In times of unpredictability where a lot of things are beyond the control of individuals, it is better to surf the flow, which is to say to keep ones options open and maximize one’s ability to deal with situations that might arise.

For example, under the goal orientation, debt is often desirable. It made sense back in the day to take on a mortgage to buy a house because you could be fairly sure that you could pay the debt and it would be desirable to own the house since it would exponentially increase in value. On the other hand, in times such as these when you could easily lose your job and be forclosed on, the value of your house could suddenly collapse, blacks might be moved into the area under section ape etc. a mortgage makes no sense. Better to avoid debt and be free to move. There would be lots of other examples.

Yet young men keep getting this goal orientation nonsense advice. I don't know way people insist on bullshitting young men.

[Tsar]

Young men are often advised to be goal oriented. This advice clearly made sense in the period between 1950-1980 and for some reason lots of people insist on pretending we are still living in those times. Goal orientation works when the future is largely predictable and the individual has sufficient power to achieve most goals. In times of unpredictability where a lot of things are beyond the control of individuals, it is better to surf the flow, which is to say to keep ones options open and maximize one’s ability to deal with situations that might arise.

For example, under the goal orientation, debt is often desirable. It made sense back in the day to take on a mortgage to buy a house because you could be fairly sure that you could pay the debt and it would be desirable to own the house since it would exponentially increase in value. On the other hand, in times such as these when you could easily lose your job and be forclosed on, the value of your house could suddenly collapse, blacks might be moved into the area under section ape etc. a mortgage makes no sense. Better to avoid debt and be free to move. There would be lots of other examples.

Yet young men keep getting this goal orientation nonsense advice. I don't know way people insist on bullshitting young men.

I agree with that. Life without debt is safe. Almost all homes are overpriced. Many things, especially employment, is now out of a young man's control.

[onethousandknives]

Goal oriented is way better. Especially nowadays. Nowadays, following your specific goal, or following your dreams, I think comes with much less of a cost compared to 30 years ago. You're not guaranteed the same things out of high school or college you used to be guaranteed. Jobs pay so little relative to inflation nowadays that you more than likely will make more money with almost any business venture compared to a minimum wage job. Your chances of starting a traditionally structured family are very slim nowadays, but this also means there's no point in trying to climb the career ladder to support your family. In the case of Happier Abroad, people 20-30 years ago said the chance of finding love in a foreign country ala an old romance movie was slim and it was stupid and pointless. But now it's statistically more likely to happen than in America (at least using divorce rates.)

For young men now, I think now is the perfect time to follow your dreams and be goal oriented in the regard of specifically chasing after your dream. I think of a certain American Olympic weightlifter who turned down a college scholarship at a D3 school to play football and instead decided to chase an Olympic medal. Another Irish lifter did the same almost, after high school had no job and just decided to full time lift. The American now competes for Brazil (and won Nationals here) and the Irish got a medal (I think Bronze) at Euro Juniors. I'm sure many old boomers and random people said that these people were losers and wasting their youth and should be "focusing on their career" or going to college.

As far as what you said about debt and unpredictability. Yeah, don't go into debt chasing a goal. And the problem with regards to that type of thought process is the goal oriented thinking taught by most people is an instant gratification type of goal system. People have almost a linear thought process of goal to money. As in, if you want a fence, pay a man X dollars to get a fence made for you. Not make the fence yourself, buy it in parts, put it up yourself, etc. Just buy the fence. Just go to college. Just get a car. Just get a girlfriend/wife. No thoughts are really given for specifics and how to get these things in the most efficient manner or in a way specific to your actual desires. Just find the quickest (not the most efficient, just the quickest) way to get them and that's it.

So yes, be goal oriented, for your own actual goals and dreams. Not for other people's goals and dreams they're trying to project onto you.

[Ghost]

.

[Jester]

Goal oriented is way better. Especially nowadays. Nowadays, following your specific goal, or following your dreams, I think comes with much less of a cost compared to 30 years ago. You're not guaranteed the same things out of high school or college you used to be guaranteed. Jobs pay so little relative to inflation nowadays that you more than likely will make more money with almost any business venture compared to a minimum wage job. Your chances of starting a traditionally structured family are very slim nowadays, but this also means there's no point in trying to climb the career ladder to support your family. In the case of Happier Abroad, people 20-30 years ago said the chance of finding love in a foreign country ala an old romance movie was slim and it was stupid and pointless. But now it's statistically more likely to happen than in America (at least using divorce rates.)

For young men now, I think now is the perfect time to follow your dreams and be goal oriented in the regard of specifically chasing after your dream. I think of a certain American Olympic weightlifter who turned down a college scholarship at a D3 school to play football and instead decided to chase an Olympic medal. Another Irish lifter did the same almost, after high school had no job and just decided to full time lift. The American now competes for Brazil (and won Nationals here) and the Irish got a medal (I think Bronze) at Euro Juniors. I'm sure many old boomers and random people said that these people were losers and wasting their youth and should be "focusing on their career" or going to college.

As far as what you said about debt and unpredictability. Yeah, don't go into debt chasing a goal. And the problem with regards to that type of thought process is the goal oriented thinking taught by most people is an instant gratification type of goal system. People have almost a linear thought process of goal to money. As in, if you want a fence, pay a man X dollars to get a fence made for you. Not make the fence yourself, buy it in parts, put it up yourself, etc. Just buy the fence. Just go to college. Just get a car. Just get a girlfriend/wife. No thoughts are really given for specifics and how to get these things in the most efficient manner or in a way specific to your actual desires. Just find the quickest (not the most efficient, just the quickest) way to get them and that's it.

So yes, be goal oriented, for your own actual goals and dreams. Not for other people's goals and dreams they're trying to project onto you.

+1

Really nice.

[hammanta]

Goal oriented is way better. Especially nowadays. Nowadays, following your specific goal, or following your dreams, I think comes with much less of a cost compared to 30 years ago. You're not guaranteed the same things out of high school or college you used to be guaranteed. Jobs pay so little relative to inflation nowadays that you more than likely will make more money with almost any business venture compared to a minimum wage job. Your chances of starting a traditionally structured family are very slim nowadays, but this also means there's no point in trying to climb the career ladder to support your family. In the case of Happier Abroad, people 20-30 years ago said the chance of finding love in a foreign country ala an old romance movie was slim and it was stupid and pointless. But now it's statistically more likely to happen than in America (at least using divorce rates.)

For young men now, I think now is the perfect time to follow your dreams and be goal oriented in the regard of specifically chasing after your dream. I think of a certain American Olympic weightlifter who turned down a college scholarship at a D3 school to play football and instead decided to chase an Olympic medal. Another Irish lifter did the same almost, after high school had no job and just decided to full time lift. The American now competes for Brazil (and won Nationals here) and the Irish got a medal (I think Bronze) at Euro Juniors. I'm sure many old boomers and random people said that these people were losers and wasting their youth and should be "focusing on their career" or going to college.

As far as what you said about debt and unpredictability. Yeah, don't go into debt chasing a goal. And the problem with regards to that type of thought process is the goal oriented thinking taught by most people is an instant gratification type of goal system. People have almost a linear thought process of goal to money. As in, if you want a fence, pay a man X dollars to get a fence made for you. Not make the fence yourself, buy it in parts, put it up yourself, etc. Just buy the fence. Just go to college. Just get a car. Just get a girlfriend/wife. No thoughts are really given for specifics and how to get these things in the most efficient manner or in a way specific to your actual desires. Just find the quickest (not the most efficient, just the quickest) way to get them and that's it.

So yes, be goal oriented, for your own actual goals and dreams. Not for other people's goals and dreams they're trying to project onto you.

+1

Really nice.

+2

As a somewhat recent college graduate with a moderate amount of student loan debt I can attest to this. The key I am finding out is to live modestly while trying to enhance your goal-oriented skills as much as possible. Though I don't believe my debt was unjustified, I put no effort into enhancing the cost to benefit analysis of that debt.

I had a broad mindset of what I wanted to do but put very little forethought into how to get there. In college, I went to class, worked (unskilled job), and drank/partied a lot. The harsh reality was what I wanted/want to do isn't given to some above average grade earner with a lack of ambition/experience. After college I worked 1.5 years as a construction laborer. Talk about a good dose of reality.

I've quickly learned that if you want something, set a path to get there, bust your ass to make yourself as marketable as possible, and network, network, network. Sure nothing is a given, and you could never reach your goal, but it is a hell of a lot better feeling trying than not giving it a shot at all.

[onethousandknives]

I think I can understand somewhat where the OP is coming from now, speaking with regards to a friend of mine. His parents were bothering him about what he was "going to do with his life" and whatnot after he got out of high school and didn't go to college. So he signed up for one of those scam trade schools for computer training. He paid $20K via student loans to get Microsoft Certified with classes that consisted of doing homework from a book and reviewing the homework in class. The book was like $40 or something. Actually getting Microsoft Certified is around $100. So he could have gotten this done for $40. So now he's got a 20K student loan for something absolutely useless that should have cost him $150 if he just thought it out a bit more. All because random old boomers were yelling at him to "do something with his life." And now he's in a much worse place than he started. Many people say "bettering your life" by "going to school" or whatever is goal oriented thinking. However this is NOT goal oriented thinking. He let himself be swayed by other people's opinions, and made irrational decisions. So many other friends, changing majors, dropping out of college, etc

Meanwhile I'm 23 and a "loser," but I have no debt at all (well, one small hospital bill, but OK) and many skills that have made me money, and now after carefully weighing options am starting a business (as in I have an actual LLC and am waiting on licensing) based on skills I've gotten from opportunities (home improvement.) This business is being started to further more goals.

I think in this regard, a big problem is, people look at "finding yourself" or whatever as a joke, when it's actually deadly serious. People have this attitude that doing something is always better than doing nothing, and as shown above, my friend would in fact be better off if he did nothing at all. And this is a big problem with the older generation's thought process. As in they don't have any and don't wish to allow any. They don't want people to contemplate what their actual goals are and a way to achieve them, they just want you doing something, anything, as long as it's not "nothing." And this leads to irrational decisions chasing things they don't actually care about.

These boomers don't like gradual experimentation or trying either, everything is now now now. For example, I'm good at working on cars. Everyone told me I should go to tech school to learn to work on cars. From my little research on this, I thought it was a ridiculous idea and figured if I cared enough the ASE Certification tests were $60 a piece or whatever and tech school was pointless. Then I actually worked in a car shop at min wage and found out it was terrible and I hated the hell out of it. So I quit. No harm, no foul. Nothing wasted by that experimentation, no student loans, hell, I got $500-600 to start my business from it. However kids these days are being told to jump right in, go to trade school, etc, to TRY something, which is frankly absurd. I think most parents, if their teenage or young adult child expressed an interest working on cars, would balk at buying them $100-200 worth of Chinese tools and finding a project car for them to fix up (thankfully my mom allowed me to do exactly this...) But get these same people and they'll happily cosign a $20K loan to go to a tech school, and if the kid drops out, or even better, sticks it through and then has no skills and can't find a job, he's an evil quitter loser with no balls, etc.

[Cornfed]

These boomers don't like gradual experimentation or trying either, everything is now now now. For example, I'm good at working on cars. Everyone told me I should go to tech school to learn to work on cars. From my little research on this, I thought it was a ridiculous idea and figured if I cared enough the ASE Certification tests were $60 a piece or whatever and tech school was pointless. Then I actually worked in a car shop at min wage and found out it was terrible and I hated the hell out of it. So I quit. No harm, no foul. Nothing wasted by that experimentation, no student loans, hell, I got $500-600 to start my business from it.

This is exactly what I mean by surfing the flow. You try something in such a way as to minimize you sunk costs and keep your options open, find that it sucks and so quit and do something else. This is the opposite of the goal oriented "winners never quit" mindset.